OYW MS questions

[megatrons2nd]

I have been messing around with my own miniatures rules for a tabletop war game set in the UC starting with the OYW and adding as the game progresses. I am at the point where I need to get stats hammered out. Every bit of info I get has the Zaku II being an excellent machine and that it is better than a GM. However the stats in the Mecha Profiles section it is the other way around, except for potentially the armor, but almost all later suits go to some version of Gundanium or titanium instead of the Super Hard Steel Alloy.

What I do know is that a fledgling New Type Untrained Pilot in a RX-78 Gundam with no additional armament other than what's mounted, is equivalent in ability to a Rookie and Veteran Pilot with a Zaku II each with a MG and heat hawk. The same fledgling pilot with shield and beam rifle is equivalent to a Rookie Zaku II and subconscious New Type Ace pilot in a custom Zaku II both with machine guns.

So my question is: What is the truth of the fiction, is the Super hard steel better than titanium, but the extra mobility of the GM, and later units, what made the difference?

[toysdream]

I guess a lot of games use weight as a proxy for construction points, hit points, or the amount of "stuff" packed into a given machine. But in the case of Gundam, it's actually irrelevant; the Zaku is 20 tons heavier than a GM but it's definitely an inferior machine. A lot of the time, the extra weight is due to poor-quality armor materials, and results in a slower, clumsier machine.

-- Mark

[megatrons2nd]

I guess a lot of games use weight as a proxy for construction points, hit points, or the amount of "stuff" packed into a given machine. But in the case of Gundam, it's actually irrelevant; the Zaku is 20 tons heavier than a GM but it's definitely an inferior machine. A lot of the time, the extra weight is due to poor-quality armor materials, and results in a slower, clumsier machine.

-- Mark

That's what the stats say, but the fiction states otherwise. That is what I am trying to figure out.

[toysdream]

We should be a bit more specific about which fiction. There isn't actually a lot of onscreen evidence from First Gundam about the performance of the GM - as best as I can recall, we mostly see them fighting Rick Doms (which they do quite well) and getting blasted by mobile armors. In 0080 and 0083 they have a tendency to become cannon fodder for Zeon aces, but again, I'm not sure they fare too badly against mass-produced enemy machines. Any specific examples in mind?

-- Mark

[megatrons2nd]

0083 the Anaheim Electronics girl whose name I can't remember is talking to Kou, and she states that the Zaku is a remarkable machine, despite Kou saying it maneuvers like a piece of......

8th MS Team, the guy who drives The Gouf Custom says something to the effect of Federation suits being a poor mans tool.

I recently heard another mention, I think it was in ZZ but I've been watching a bunch lately, so don't remember for sure.


Also the source animation has both GMs and Zakus biting it regularly from each others weapons, but there are so many it's hard to determine the ratio, which would help.

[toysdream]

I'm trying, but I don't think I can recall any occasion on which a Zaku destroyed a GM in the animation. I think I've seen them kill more Gundams than GMs!

-- Mark

[Seto Kaiba]

[...]Every bit of info I get has the Zaku II being an excellent machine and that it is better than a GM. However the stats in the Mecha Profiles section it is the other way around, except for potentially the armor, but almost all later suits go to some version of Gundanium or titanium instead of the Super Hard Steel Alloy.
[...]
So my question is: What is the truth of the fiction, is the Super hard steel better than titanium, but the extra mobility of the GM, and later units, what made the difference?

Everything I've read in the Gundam technical materials I've translated for my own amusement suggests the AE RGM-79 GM is superior in pretty much every respect to Zeonic's MS-06 Zaku II... it had armor that was comparable or marginally better than the Zaku's, and it was lighter by far, a fair bit faster both in terms of acceleration and top speed, it responded faster in a turn, and its cameras and other sensors gave it a detection radius almost twice that of the Zaku II's. All that and it had a pretty significant advantage in weaponry too.

All told, I can't recall any cases of a pilot indicating the Zaku II was a better machine. I remember in the Zeta Gundam novelization, Quattro claimed to have piloted a GM briefly and wasn't pleased with its performance, but he never attempted to claim the Zaku II was a better machine. What I've seen has generally suggested that the MS-09 Dom was roughly comparable in performance to a GM, and the MS-14 Gelgoog outclassed it.

My interpretation of the information I've seen is that the Zaku II's saving grace in combat is that its pilots were/are significantly more experienced with their machines and Mobile Suit combat overall... while the Federation's GM pilots were mostly newly minted Mobile Suit pilots fresh from a simulator with little to no practical experience. That experience paid big dividends for the Zaku II pilots when going up against the technically superior GMs, but sheer weight of numbers, excellent strategy, and Zeon's brass being so far up themselves they could see their own teeth from behind left those Zaku pilots to flap in the breeze where the burgeoning corps of GM pilots could use them for practice.

[yazi88]

I think there is also a bias for the Zaku in context from 8th MS Team and 0083, remember that Anaheim absorbed a lot of Zeon engineers after the OYW, and in 8th MS Team it was a Zeon pilot that said it.

There is the aspect of the ease of maintenance and versatility for the Zaku II along with the fact that many many many things were produced using it as a base.

And it also depends on WHICH Zaku II we're talking about here... I'm assuming it is the standard F type MS-06F unless stated otherwise at the subject matter here, along with the regular RGM-79 GM.

[MythSearcher]

I guess that idea comes from the additional of pilot skills.
The GM is indeed a superior unit than the Zaku II, I'd say it is even better than the Rick Dom and on par with the Gelgoog(albiet a bit weaker)
However, the Pilots only have very little training, and most of them are converted from other mobile weapons like tanks and fighters, which will likely have strong tendencies to pilot the MS like one of those, and that is of course, not fully utilizing the functions and thus power of a MS.
Fictional-wise, a short story by Natsumoto Masato (I think it is collected in the back of Lost War Chronicles, but not very sure) had a Zaku pilot fighting his way out from a bunch of GMs, and stated the Federation Pilots are piloting MSs like tanks and MSs are not tanks.
Ecole du Ciel also had students laughed at Asuna when she picked a Zaku II instead of a GM in the simulation, all stating that it is an inferior unit.

From the settings, I am quite sure that the GM is the superior of the two, eventhough EFF didn't have as much development time for the GM, they simply stacked more resources on it and created a unit that is superior in absolute power but inferior in efficiency.
The Zaku is a remarkable unit in terms of its efficiency, using numbers as an example, it is like using 50 units of resources to build a unit with 40 units of power(say, 80% efficient) but the GM is likely using 80 units of resources to build a unit with 56 units of power(70% efficient)
If you have the two of them fighting, the GM is likely to win given similar piloting skills, but if we are talking about strategical placement, you can simply have much more Zaku IIs in the field with the same resources. (On the other hand, since the EF had 30 times the reosurces than Zeon, the EFF simply don't have to care that much when fielding GMs)
Also, since the pilot skills are quite different, the 16 units of power can likely be overcome by skillful pilots. On the other hand, newer pilots, even when piloting modified units like the Zaku FZ, can still do pretty bad against the GM command, which is not really that much more powerful than the regular GM.(The Zaku FZ is a much better upgrade and can be said to be on par with the regular GM)

And, given the development case in UC and real life science, Super hard Steel is inferior to all Titanium used as armour material in UC.
The GM has "maybe" inferior armour thickness (in terms of RHAmm) because of it has less armour mass, and its semi-monocoque construction (which emphasis in easier change of armour than the efficiency in utilizing mass in increasing defence capabilities) Though I don't recall seeing any sources stating the GM has poorer armour than the Zakus. I only see mentions of the Zaku II being a more sturdy unit in terms of it being more able to take impact and not malfunctioning(In Ecole du Ciel) which I guess also have roots from it being able to be used even decades after the OYW in various stories.

[megatrons2nd]

Found the other reference. It is in an "official gundam guide" translated to English in 2002 and comes right out and says the GM is inferior, but it's numbers made up for it.

From the responses here, I gather that the GM is better, it was the skills that made the difference.

[Gelgoog Jager]

To put it in broad terms:

-The vanilla MS-06F/MS-06J was mainly intended against vehicles and warships, for which they were used to great effect.

-The GMs and Gundam were mainly intended as anti-MS (and more specifically as anti-Zaku) units, for which they also work quite well on that role.

-On the other hand, units like the Gouf and Dom can outperform a GM at their respective competences (close range combat and ground combat respectively). I should also remark that the Dom seems to have been mainly designed as an anti-ship MS.

-The Gelgoog was mainly intended as an anti-MS (essentially an anti-Gundam) unit, and can easily outperform a GM.

All that being said, some newer, better or role-specific models like the MS-06F2, MS-06G or MS-06R series can certainly fight a GM/Gundam on more even grounds.

From Mark's site I also found some relevant details for the on-going discussion:

Due to insufficient development time, the RX-78 entered the battlefield in the form of the mass production type RGM-79. In other words, the RGM-79 was in a sense an incomplete machine.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/msv3.html

These programs (control programs based on data from the Gundma’s learning computer) were transferred unchanged to the GM, compensating for the lack of training. (However, because the GM's performance was somewhat inferior to that of the Gundam, it couldn't take full advantage of this software, and GM losses proved to be greater than estimated.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ndam3.html

Deviating greatly from the original plan, the Federation Forces' mass production type mobile suits used the RGM-79 GM, a mobile infantry type for melee combat, as their main force.

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ble01.html

Although the existing GM was an accident-prone machine due to its rushed development, there was still some resistance to the idea of using captured Zeon mobile suits "as is."

http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ndam3.html

In particular the last one always sounded reasonable to me: While the standard GM could be considered better than a Zaku II or a Rick Dom (the later a rushed design with significant flaws), it also came out with problems due to the changes from the original RX-78 design. Essentially it's rushed development and simplified construction, combined with the use of Amuro's data from the learning computer would likely result in the GM breaking down often due to trying to perform on the same level as the Gundam. Still, the EF's logistical muscle should have been easily able to compensate for such flaw, even if it could translate on a large percentage of GM units requiring maintenance and repairs after every satire, even if they didn't took any damage.

The part about the GM being a melee type unit remarked its role as an anti-MS unit, but also confirms the need of the RB-79 units that would often accompany them during Operation Star One to overcome their lack of long range firepower (the beam spray gun was supposedly powerful enough to destroy a Rick Dom on a single shot, but its firepower came at the tradeoff of a short firing range. The Hyper Bazooka seemed like a rare weapon even during the operation, and as we know, supposedly less than 50 units of any GM variant were made. Both situations would indicate that the GM could find itself at a major disadvantage in a long range combat situation (the first episode of Gundam Thunderbolt comes to ind).

Another thing I was reading a few days ago is that the even shut a few years ago titanium was considered far more expensive than steel (over the years such situation has changed significantly) and I wouldn't be surprised if at the time the specs of the Zaku II and GM first came out, the different armor materials were chosen as such in order to indicate that the GM was still a rather expensive machine, despite the cost reduction measures it underwent compared to the Gundam.

That being said, there are some odd cases that stand out: the Zeon units from 0080 have all been marked as using newer titanium/ceramic composite as their armor material. IIRC some videogames (Journey to Jaburo, if I'm not mistaken) also used to mention that some amphibious MS such as the standard Z'gok also used the new Titanium/Ceramic composite armor, while UCGO claimed the same about the Gelgoog series. The later has a potential nod from official sources, namely the multiple base weights given for some units, such as the MS-14C (44.5t and 55.8t). Basically I would propose that the first units converted form YMS-14 would still use the older Super Hard Steel Alloy (SHSA), and the mass production model which entered production two months later would already be using the new armor material, Titanium/Ceramic Composite.

Now, AFAIK the MSV units from Zeta Gundam have never been indicate to use newer armor materials despite at least a few of them being supposedly brand new units build by the EF. As such I wonder if the same could be the case of the Galbaldy Beta, a machine that uses Titanium alloy as its armor material even though the EF had been using Titanium ceramic composite as the armor material of all it's mass production units for years already (RGM-79C being the best example). In its defense, there's the MS-14J, a machine still use by Axis/1st Neo Zeon which also uses Titanium alloy as its armor material, despite every other Axis MS using gundarium alloy, including the Gaz-L & Gaz-R, units also based on OYW units and upgraded after the war.

The Dowadge and Dowadge Kai could be in a similar position, specially, considering that their accompanying Desert Zakus still use SHSA for their armor material, despite having upgraded generators and being noticeable upgraded from their MSV counterparts. In it's particular case, the titanium alloy could have been it's original amor material and by the time of the Gryps Conflict it could have been partially upgraded with gundarium game alloy (which did not exist during the OYW) to cover some of the most important or vulnerable sections of the MS.

[MythSearcher]

Another thing I was reading a few days ago is that the even shut a few years ago titanium was considered far more expensive than steel (over the years such situation has changed significantly) and I wouldn't be surprised if at the time the specs of the Zaku II and GM first came out, the different armor materials were chosen as such in order to indicate that the GM was still a rather expensive machine, despite the cost reduction measures it underwent compared to the Gundam.

That being said, there are some odd cases that stand out: the Zeon units from 0080 have all been marked as using newer titanium/ceramic composite as their armor material. IIRC some videogames (Journey to Jaburo, if I'm not mistaken) also used to mention that some amphibious MS such as the standard Z'gok also used the new Titanium/Ceramic composite armor, while UCGO claimed the same about the Gelgoog series. The later has a potential nod from official sources, namely the multiple base weights given for some units, such as the MS-14C (44.5t and 55.8t). Basically I would propose that the first units converted form YMS-14 would still use the older Super Hard Steel Alloy (SHSA), and the mass production model which entered production two months later would already be using the new armor material, Titanium/Ceramic Composite.

Now, AFAIK the MSV units from Zeta Gundam have never been indicate to use newer armor materials despite at least a few of them being supposedly brand new units build by the EF. As such I wonder if the same could be the case of the Galbaldy Beta, a machine that uses Titanium alloy as its armor material even though the EF had been using Titanium ceramic composite as the armor material of all it's mass production units for years already (RGM-79C being the best example). In its defense, there's the MS-14J, a machine still use by Axis/1st Neo Zeon which also uses Titanium alloy as its armor material, despite every other Axis MS using gundarium alloy, including the Gaz-L & Gaz-R, units also based on OYW units and upgraded after the war.

The Dowadge and Dowadge Kai could be in a similar position, specially, considering that their accompanying Desert Zakus still use SHSA for their armor material, despite having upgraded generators and being noticeable upgraded from their MSV counterparts. In it's particular case, the titanium alloy could have been it's original amor material and by the time of the Gryps Conflict it could have been partially upgraded with gundarium game alloy (which did not exist during the OYW) to cover some of the most important or vulnerable sections of the MS.

I wonder. I read a pretty old book about 15 years ago, the book likely dates back to the 70's or at least 80's. It is about Titanium and its potential usage and already talking about it being used for military helmets.
It may sounded expensive, but not that expensive and obvious to that kind of subtle point in the settings. I think Titanium simply sounded more advanced and better than steel, so rule of cool kicks in.(Well, it is better in real life anyway)

And about armour material and construct, remember MSV-R Return of Johnny Ridden? They have 2 MS-14 lookalikes that are essencially completely newly designed units, with even the armour material changed to using the newest EFF material and construction method. They made it sounded like they designed and built completely new Gelgoogs, but the EFF did used captured units in various places and thus building new parts for those old units should also be rather common.
In real life, this can well be the case, obtaining original material that is out of production may simply be more expensive, but taking currently produced material and modifying it to fit on an old machine can be cheaper.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

I'm trying, but I don't think I can recall any occasion on which a Zaku destroyed a GM in the animation. I think I've seen them kill more Gundams than GMs!

-- Mark

I can think of at least one -- there's a rather infamous gif of a Zaku destroying a GM by kicking a Ball into it, though admittedly I can't recall when this particular sequence takes places.

The general point still stands, though -- GMs generally do well against Zaku IIs outside of extenuating circumstances, so it's probably safe to assume that GMs are higher performing machines than Zaku IIs are.

[toysdream]

I dunno, maybe that demonstrates the kinetic potential of the Ball. According to 08th MS Team they're totally bulletproof!

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

I did some more digging around and found and interesting thread related to Zeon's armor materials during the OYW:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... or#p148981

Apparently the armor material of most of Zeon's MSM series was retconned from Super High Tensile Steel to Titanium Ceramic Composite, with the glaring exception of the Acguy (which is said to share componentes with the MS-06 series). From the looks of it, it goes back as far as the MSM-02 and MSM-03-1, which would indicate that it was adopted early on during the OYW, perhaps around May as per this thread:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... =0#p308362

This provides an explanation of why the MSM-03C and MSM-07E use the new armor material, despite not being part of the United Maintenance Plan lineup. However, it still leaves the Kamper as an example of a MS outside these two groups also using the new armor material.

On the other hand, since we are told that the MS-06FZ is actually an upgrade for the aging MS-06F units, this could indicate that Zeon was also working on updating the armor materials of some old MS models.

Going back to the ZZ units, I noticed that the profile of the RMS-192M indicates that uses both Titanium alloy and Gundarium alloy, same as the MS-09G, MS-09H and RGM-86R. The later in particular is known to have been upgraded from RMS-179 units, which used Titanium Ceramic Composite armor. So what if the OYW MS-06M-2 and MS-09G also used TCC armor and were upgraded with Gundarium alloy by the time of the 1st Neo Zeon war?

Also, after checking again the Mahq profile of the MS-14J, it says that the ReGelg uses Titanium Composite armor, which might have been intended to say TCC armor as well, which would also go in hand with the assumption that some MS-14A/B/C Gelgoogs were also using the new armor material.

Lastly, the AMX-002 Neue Ziel, a MA designed during the OYW as the AMA-X2, also uses TCC. Therefore I'm in inclined to think that late Zeon MS and MA probably also used the new armor material, including units like the MS-17, MA-05, MA-08 and MSN-02, and not old SHTS.

[JEFFPIATT]

I'm trying, but I don't think I can recall any occasion on which a Zaku destroyed a GM in the animation. I think I've seen them kill more Gundams than GMs!

-- Mark

I can think of at least one -- there's a rather infamous gif of a Zaku destroying a GM by kicking a Ball into it, though admittedly I can't recall when this particular sequence takes places.

The general point still stands, though -- GMs generally do well against Zaku IIs outside of extenuating circumstances, so it's probably safe to assume that GMs are higher performing machines than Zaku IIs are.

that's an stock loop from the final episodes of the original series during the final battle between the segments following the WB Crew we got short snips of stock animation depicting GM and Zaku's fighting with other loops featuring the other zeon ms fighting.

[mic1402]

Instead of creating a new thread may i add my own question?
Can zeons various amphibious mobile suits operate in space? and more specfically can the Zogok?
A few of them are seen operating on the tigerbaum colony (how they got there considering they where apparently constructed at calafornia base.....) The idea of a Zogok flying around in space rocket punching people amuses me greatly.

Also can the gouf operate in space? I assume that most ms can modified to do so.

[Gelgoog Jager]

The MS at Tigerbaum were there mainly for decorative purposes. It's unknown exactly how they came to get there though, whether they were samples sent back to the Zeon homeland during the OYW or some sort of collector's item brought after the OYW.

I would assume that without modification they would be unable to operate in space. However, I do know that at least the AMX-109 seems to be capable of doing so, namely the units seen in the Mirage of Zeon manga (taking place during the 1st Neo Zeon War) and Turn A Gundam.

As for the Gouf, I think it would fall I to the same category of requiring to be modified for space use. However, IIRC the original plan for the first TV series (when it was supposed to have 50 episodes, did involve some Gouf units operating in space).

Anyway, without modification they would most likely end up like the MS-06J units seen iat the end of the 3rd episode of MS Igloo, which became unable to maneuver and became easy pickings for an EF team of RB-79 Balls.

[JEFFPIATT]

the units at Tigerbaum were part of the governor's personal MS Collection apparently after the OYO some of the captured Zeon ms got De-miltirized and sold on the collectors market. This did get referenced in Zeta as Riccola used an rebuilt Gelgoog salvaged from an abandoned Zeon ship hulk to recon the Jupterious under the cover that she was an Military MS collector who's unit was malfunctioning to get clearance to land on the MS deck for emergency repairs. this is something that happens in real life ass there are rich collectors who collect Decommissioned tanks and Fighter Jets. By CCA we get an De-miltirized version of the Hi-zack the Hobby Hi-Zack where RMS-106 units are reconfigured at Luna II for Civilian use based on the new model code RMS-116H

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Zeon's amphibious mobile suits used open-cycle water-cooled reactors (ie, they just ran seawater through the system to cool it down, then dumped the now-heated seawater out behind them), which is what allowed them to make the reactor strong enough to power beam weapons without e-caps. But it also means that they definitely wouldn't be able to operate in space, above and beyond the fact that, as purely terrestrial models, they have no thrusters of verniers to maneuver in space anyway.