Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

[AmuroNT1]

Regarding the Gyan, I'm pretty sure it COULD use beam weapons, it just DIDN'T since Zimmad designed it to work as a team with the Rick Dom. Which may have been a shrewd marketing move but clearly it didn't work.

Plus, I don't think we can really consider Build Fighters a source on anything, but it's at least worth noting that the Gyan Cannon from Gihren's Greed can use a Gelgoog-type beam rifle despite the fact that its reactor isn't powerful enough to drive a beam cannon.

[toysdream]

Regarding the Gelgoog beam machine gun (the one used by the MS-14Jg, but also included for the MS-14A in the original MG kit), if it has a power condenser instead of an E-Cap (or beside one), does that mean that the weapon can actually replenish it's mega particles as long as its connected to a MS with a high generator output?

You've actually opened a can of worms here! The main info source on the condenser/capacitor distinction is Entertainment Bible 1, whose diagrams of warship cannons and beam rifles are annotated as follows...

Minovsky particles are compressed inside an energy condenser by a powerful I-field, and they degenerate and fuse into mega particles. At this point, part of their mass is converted to kinetic energy. (...) The Energy CAP can emit high-energy Minovsky particles that have been compressed by an I-field. As a result, the energy condenser can be omitted, and the weapon can be made small and light enough for a mobile suit to carry.

In other words, conventional mega particle cannons collect Minovsky particles in a condenser and then turn them into mega particles. But weapons based on E-caps, which are pre-loaded with compressed Minovsky particles, don't need a condenser. Thus we can assume that any weapon with a condenser isn't E-cap based!

As it turns out, not only do the MG kit manuals indicate that the Gelgoog JG's beam machine gun has a "power condenser" in its stock, but the prototype beam rifle used by the MS-14G and Gato's Gelgoog also has a "condenser unit" in its stock. (As well as a "capacitor/accelerator" in front of the trigger, but this may be an electrical device.) These two beam rifles differ from other One Year War models due to their bulky rear ends, so it's actually believable that they use a non-E-cap method for accumulating and compressing their particles. I guess we actually could think of them as being miniature versions of the Rick Dom's beam bazooka, which charge up the condenser at the back end of the weapon using Minovsky particles from the mobile suit rather than a built-in generator.

In this case, the classic, elegant Gelgoog beam rifle would actually be the only E-cap weapon deployed by Zeon during the war! The other rifle types, as well as the Rick Dom's beam bazooka and - most likely - the Gelgoog Cannon's backpack weapon all use a more primitive technology derived from traditional mega particle cannons. That's kind of an unexpected finding!

The GM's beam spray gun, which supposedly isn't E-cap based, probably works along similar lines. Weapons of this type seem to have a high rate of fire once they're charged up, but probably have a much lower capacity than a pre-loaded E-cap weapon.

-- Mark

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Huh, I hadn't seen the claim that the beam spray gun wasn't e-cap based before. That's especially interesting given that the GM has a lower generator output than the Gundam, which supposedly isn't powerful enough to support a proper reactor-driven beam cannon. How do they reconcile that one?

[toysdream]

Well, we know that there are two ingredients to activating a UC beam weapon - a supply of energy in the form of Minovsky particles, and the electrical power required to compress the particles into mega particles and fire them out of the weapon. Since E-caps store particles in a pre-compressed form, they need a lot less power to complete the compression process. So far so good.

Most of what we've been discussing here has to do with where the particles are obtained from. It's a whole other question as to how this affects the power requirements for firing. Clearly the GM's beam spray gun, which isn't E-cap based, can't be that power-thirsty. But it's interesting that the beam spray gun and the Jaeger's beam machine gun are unconventional weapons that fire short-range bursts, specialized beam "pellets," etc - there must be some kind of trade-off involved.

It's also possible that there's a power output "discount" for E-cap weapons. The beam gun in the Nu Gundam's shield, supposedly rated at 7.8 MW, is only said to be as powerful as a One Year War-era beam rifle; the Nu's beam rifle, rated at 3.8 MW, is said to be as powerful as a CCA-era warship cannon. I'm not sure that's a generally applicable rule, though.

-- Mark

[domtropen]

From Thunderbolt anime the beam bazooka that is used by the Psyco Zaku does fire several shots in quick succession, then the beam bazooka is discarded. Probably without the support of more powerful version of MS reactor like the RS Rickdom etc. the supposed recharge time would be far too long to be of much use?

[toysdream]

It's not recharged by the mobile suit's reactor. Remember that the beam bazooka has its own internal generator that provides the energy (i.e. Minovsky particle) supply - all it needs from the mobile suit is electrical power.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

The idea that the MS-14JG uses an early weapon that pre-dates the use of E-Cap technology by Zeon is an interesting idea. It could even explain why the MS-14JG is not carrying a melee beam weapon: perhaps there weren't any at the time it was designed and first deployed.

But what about the MS-14JG beam spot guns? Given the size of those weapon I assumed they used E-Cap technology. If they don't operate with E-Caps, wouldn't the energy demand for 3 beam weapons that need energy for both producing mega articles and firing them be a significant burden for the MS-14JG?

Also, aren't the MSM-03C, MSM-07E and MSM-10 supposed to already use E-Cap technology? That do would suggest an earlier availability of this technology for Zeon. Also, I was under the impression that at least the MSM-03C do was mass produced at least in a limited capacity.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

What's particularly interesting about the claim that the beam spray gun doesn't have an e-cap is that it seems to imply that the GM is capable of transferring not just electrical power to hand-held weapons, but also Minovksy particles. We know that the Gundam can't do this (recall the amusing instance where its beam saber runs out of Minovsky particles mid-battle and Amuro ends up poking a Zaku with its deactivated hilt instead of skewering it), though I can't recall when the first Minvosky-transferring mecha show up. It might be as early as the Alex, in which case the GM having it wouldn't be all that odd.

Another possibility is that beam spray guns store their own Minovsky particles, just not in a pre-charged almost-mega-particles state. That would seem to be the worst of both possible worlds, though; it would have both a limited ammo supply and require a lot of power to fire.

Perhaps the real power drain for beam weapons isn't producing the mega particles for the beam itself, but producing the i-field to focus and direct the beam? That could also tie back to the Dom's beam scatter gun. Producing mega particles without properly focusing them produces a lot of energy but can't actually transfer that energy to a target (so you get an extremely bright flash and little else). Producing mega particles with only a weak focusing field results in a weapon with a short effective range (like the beam spray gun), or requires odd compromises (like the "beam pellet" thing).

Either way, if the main electrical cost of beam weapons is actually producing mega particles from Minovsky particles, then I don't see how a GM would be able to drive an e-cap-less beam spray gun.

[domtropen]

I know that the bazooka has its own reactor, but isn't MS with more powerful reactor like the RS Rickdom can reduce the recharge time with the help of the MS reactor? Or just allow firing in multiple quick shots? And would the recharge time after all that shots be longer than when the bazooka is used by lower power MS like normal Rickdom?

[MythSearcher]

What's particularly interesting about the claim that the beam spray gun doesn't have an e-cap is that it seems to imply that the GM is capable of transferring not just electrical power to hand-held weapons, but also Minovksy particles. We know that the Gundam can't do this (recall the amusing instance where its beam saber runs out of Minovsky particles mid-battle and Amuro ends up poking a Zaku with its deactivated hilt instead of skewering it), though I can't recall when the first Minvosky-transferring mecha show up. It might be as early as the Alex, in which case the GM having it wouldn't be all that odd.

Another possibility is that beam spray guns store their own Minovsky particles, just not in a pre-charged almost-mega-particles state. That would seem to be the worst of both possible worlds, though; it would have both a limited ammo supply and require a lot of power to fire.

Perhaps the real power drain for beam weapons isn't producing the mega particles for the beam itself, but producing the i-field to focus and direct the beam? That could also tie back to the Dom's beam scatter gun. Producing mega particles without properly focusing them produces a lot of energy but can't actually transfer that energy to a target (so you get an extremely bright flash and little else). Producing mega particles with only a weak focusing field results in a weapon with a short effective range (like the beam spray gun), or requires odd compromises (like the "beam pellet" thing).

Either way, if the main electrical cost of beam weapons is actually producing mega particles from Minovsky particles, then I don't see how a GM would be able to drive an e-cap-less beam spray gun.

I don't know where that appeared.
The GM spray gun is only a shortened barrel beam rifle, which lowers the cost and output requirement(since the barrel needed an EM field to control the I-Field within) so it should have an E-cap like the Beam rifle of RX-78.

And recharging the E-cap with just the output of the MS is really not that far fetched(the GM MG Manual said there are some varients that can recharge the spray gun)
Using MS output to charge the mega particle cannon is impractical in that you need a few minutes to charge it, which, without the E-cap technology, would be too long in the rate of fire, since firing each shot would take a few minutes and you cannot precharge the next shot. Compared to quick firing firearms, it would be like bringing a musket(or any front loading firearms) against a rapid crossbow with 50~100 shots preloaded(yes, that's quite implausible in real life, but this is a metaphor), the musket might be more powerful, but you don't have much of an advantage against a quick firing opponent if you are not doing a 1 on 1 duel but on a chaotic battlefield.

But if we are talking about the a gun with E-cap, the rate of fire with the E-cap should be reasonable, and charging a few shots between encounters would only make it even more practical. Using the same line of metaphor, you are now upgraded to a semi-automatic firearm, which will be much more effective against the rapid crossbow.

[Gelgoog Jager]

After reading through the comments again, I still have some questions about the process for firing beam weapons without E-Caps:

-Essentially there's three parts of this process: producing Minvoksky particle, providing enough electrical power to compress them into mega particles and providing enough electrical power to fire them. An E-Cap would basically allow to skip steps 1 and 2.

-But in the case of pre-E-Cap weapons, would the condenser allow to compress mega particles first and briefly store them before firing them? As mentioned, many of the above mentioned examples are rapid firing weapons, which I'm inclined to think that use up a reserve of mega particles built up before firing. IIRC, the Musai-Class Famel needs to charge up 15 minutes before firing its mega particles beam weapons. Could this be translated into having the Musai use its electrical power to compress mega particles during 15 minutes and afterwards use its electrical power to a actually fire them?

-If such is the case, perhaps the real limitation of these early beam weapons would be that they need to be activated a few minutes prior to usage in order to compress mega particles before they are actually required, meaning that if ambushed, the weapon would be useless for the first several minutes while starting the process from the very beginning. This again begs for the question of whether or not compressed mega particle can be stored without an E-Cap at least for immediate use within the next few minutes.

-Another likely con would be a likely high manufacturing cost, which would explain why these weapons are so uncommon despite providing a means for Zeon filling the gap before their own E-Cap weapons were completed.

-In the case of the beam bazooka, perhaps any MS can fire the weapon quickly, but the real problem comes after expending the current charge of compressed mega particles, for which the more powerful generator of a MS-09RS would be able to supplement the generator of the beam bazooka to compress more mega particles at a faster rate than a standard Rick Dom. Would such assumption be correct?

-One last thing: the MS-14JG's beam machine gun is not a short range weapon. In fact the MS-14JG received the nickname of "Gelgoog Sniper Type" due to the high accuracy of its weapon even at long range.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I know that the bazooka has its own reactor, but isn't MS with more powerful reactor like the RS Rickdom can reduce the recharge time with the help of the MS reactor? Or just allow firing in multiple quick shots? And would the recharge time after all that shots be longer than when the bazooka is used by lower power MS like normal Rickdom?

Sorry for the double post, but ran into the relevant thread for this question:

Isn't the beam bazooka model that is used by Rick Dom etc. contains its own generator though? Adding more generator to increase power output old tech style may add quite a bit of weight ala Zaku sniper [minus cooling system]?

It's unclear. The MG Rick Dom kit manual says that the beam bazooka is "a type of beam weapon that doesn't receive its energy supply from the machine itself", but the Char's Rick Dom kit manual claims that it has an upgraded generator and energy supply connectors in its arms so that it can drive the beam bazooka.

These claims aren't mutually exclusive, though. Since the beam bazooka takes a long time to charge, the designers may have tried to speed things up by upgrading the Rick Dom so that it can contribute directly to its energy supply.

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 20#p330056

[domtropen]

Perhaps Psycho Zaku is an example of MS that cannot use its own reactor to help recharge the beam bazooka. Maybe once turn on the beam bazooka will accumulate and condense Minovsky particles over time for more and more shots till max number of shots is achieved. The number of shots and how powerful the shot MS can fire may be limited to how long the beam bazooka was turned on then? And once drained the beam bazooka would take a long time to recharge that may render it useless during intense battle and better discarded than waiting for recharge [like what the psycho zaku does]? But for MS like RS Rickdom maybe with the help of the MS reactor the recharge time is more manageable, but can it fill up the bazooka for more quick continuous bursts or just a couple shots every few minutes?

[Product9]

Hey guys. I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe this was addressed already, but can someone explain to me how a fusion reactor could be detonated?

The very idea seems to go against my understanding of physics.

[toysdream]

Definitely an interesting side discussion! This is all going to be a bit vague and contradictory, since the world of Gundam techno-backstory is currently in a pretty bad state of repair. Aside from the MG and HG-UC kit manuals, there's been very little genuinely new information on UC mobile suit technology published in the last 15-20 years, so we're generally dealing with a weird mishmash of stray comments from kit manuals and half-digested chunks of info from Gundam Century, the old MSV series, etc. which doesn't really match what's been done in the anime over the years. (Just for one example, the kit manuals insist that the beam bazooka takes a long time to charge between shots, which isn't reflected in Thunderbolt.)


For starters, the question of the beam spray gun. My notion that it's not E-cap based mostly comes from the old MSV series, in particular the descriptions of the GM Light Armor, which we're told "carries an energy cap-type beam rifle like the RX-78." The Light Armor's weapon looks more like a pistol than a rifle, but the MSV description specifically mentions that it's an E-cap type, which implies that the regular beam spray gun isn't. But other sources (like the recent Master Archive books) clearly say that the beam spray gun is E-cap based, and the kit manuals don't state one way or the other. At most, this is just circumstantial evidence, and I agree it would make more sense if the spray gun used an E-cap.

In any case, the MG kit manual does say that the beam spray gun can be recharged via a mount latch on the hip (present in some, but not all, GM versions). "When not in a combat situation, it appears that there are also types that can recharge the energy, although this takes some time."

Incidentally, the MG Gundam Mark II kit manual specifically notes that the Mark II doesn't have energy supply cables in its arms for recharging handheld beam weapons. Thus its hand weapons must rely on their own internal energy supply (in other words, replaceable E-packs). But perhaps the Mark II's hip latch, where it can store its beam rifle, has recharge functions like the GM's hip latch? That would make a certain amount of sense...


As for non-E-cap weapons, it's unclear whether the condenser can accumulate enough particles to produce multiple shots, but the anime should probably be the deciding evidence there. If a ship, mobile armor, or mobile suit can charge up its condenser between uses and store enough particles for several blasts, then the only practical difference between this an E-cap would be that the particles in the condenser have to be compressed as the weapon is fired. That would mean a greater electrical power input during firing, and probably more space would be required for storing the uncompressed particles.

In any case, it seems that both E-cap and condenser-based weapons are capable of recharging their particle supply from a mobile suit's generator. So the performance of a weapon like the beam bazooka would differ depending on whether it's getting all its particles from its own generator, or whether the mobile suit's arms have been fitted with energy supply cables so it can contribute as well (as with Char's Rick Dom). In the case of the Psycho Zaku, it's possible that its electrical output is high enough that it can compress and fire the particles very rapidly, and yet it lacks the necessary hardware to speed up the recharging process afterwards.


Setting aside the specific published claims, then, the most rational view might be that both E-cap and condenser-based weapons can store enough particles for several shots, and both can be (slowly) recharged if they have either an internal generator or a direct connection to a mobile suit's generator. But since an E-cap stores the particles in a compressed state, the power requirements during firing would be lower. So E-cap weapons would be more suitable for machines like the GM which have fairly low power outputs, while the Rick Dom would require a power increase in order to use the condenser-based beam bazooka. And the higher your electrical power output, the more rapidly you can fire the next shot from your supply of stored particles.

On the Zeon side, there are relatively few cases where we know for certain that weapons are E-cap based. There's the Gelgoog's standard beam rifle; the MG Zeong kit manual mentions that its detachable head and arms use E-caps; the HG-UC Z'Gok E and Hy-Gogg manuals note that their beam cannons are E-cap based, making them capable of rapid fire. As for the Zock, the HG-UC kit manual says that its mega particle cannons are "capable of rapid fire comparable to an energy cap system," which suggests it's not E-cap based but makes up for it with sheer power output.

-- Mark

[toysdream]

An addendum: I noticed some references in the Japanese websites to the Gundam 0083 drama CD ("Artillery Battle at Lunga" or however you care to translate it), so I went and looked that up. There's some interesting stuff in the booklet!


For starters, we get Aristide Hughes's reminiscences about the beginning of the One Year War, when he was a Federation warship gunner:

"I was responsible for the Hood Type V main mega particle cannon. It was a deflection type that boasted an output of 12 MW, the strongest of its time."

I don't think the drama CD makes it clear what kind of ship he's talking about, but the Japanese fans - and Gundam Officials - seem to be convinced that he's describing the main gun of the Magellan at the start of the war. (Hughes goes on to say that he was later stationed aboard a newer ship with the improved Hood Type VIII, and the Albion is equipped with the Hood Type XII.) Technically I don't think the Magellan's guns are actually deflection-type mega particle cannons, but if the Japanese fans are right, then we have an output spec for the Magellan's main guns which matches our earlier estimate (less than 1/10 the Jormungand's output of 150 MW).


Meanwhile, the Lunga drama CD also gives us output specs for the GP01's regular beam rifle (the Bowa XBR-M-82A) and the new prototype rifle (the Blash XBR-L-83d). The M-82A has an output of 1.5 MW, and the L-83d's output is more than three times higher, at 4.8 MW. What's more, we're told that that "it's a type in which the internal condenser is charged from the mobile suit generator, and so it ends up having a long firing interval." In other words, this is the same system we've been envisioning for the beam bazooka and various Gelgoog rifles.

It's also interesting to note that the dialogue introducing this weapon specifically says "Generator output 4.8 megawatts." There's a footnote explaining the term "generator," which goes on to say...

By the way, when it's directly connected to the generator, the beam rifle's output value is converted. But in practice, due to the use of an energy CAP, the output value from the mobile suit generator is quite small.

As usual, this is frustratingly ambiguous. But it's possible that we're drawing a distinction between weapons that draw their energy from the mobile suit (like the condenser-based L-83d) and weapons that use an E-CAP (like the M-82A), and saying that the latter not only require less generator power but that this is reflected in the listed output specs (since the dialogue here specifies generator output). In other words, there may be some kind of "E-CAP discount" we should apply when comparing outputs, which would help explain why the Gundam's beam rifle is often compared to a warship cannon.

-- Mark

[MythSearcher]

My personal view is this, the E-cap helped part 1 and 2 like Gelgoog Jager mentioned a few posts up, thus saved quite some output from the MS, which tallies with the settings about e-cap. So I am all convinced that the output power listed is just the required power to fire the weapon, not the actual damaging power output of the weapon.
Yet the beam rifle, although often compared to a warship cannon, isn't compared to it by output power, more like the type (beam). At least I want to convince myself of this.

Other strange things like the RX-93 MG Manual, which claims the max output of its beam rifle is comparable in output power against the main guns of the battleship classes of the same era, yet the shield beam gun is only comparable to the beam rifle in the OYW period. This sounded just plain stupid, even not accounting for the 3.8MW vs 7.8MW numbers, a much larger shield mounted beam gun to sound much less powerful against a smaller weapon.
Though I might argue that the shield beam gun is not using e-cap tech and the max output of the beam rifle might actually break itself after one shot, this still sounded ridiculous enough. Why on Earth do they not just install a smaller weapon with e-cap on the shield?
Another possible explanation might be that the main gun on the Battleship classes of the 0093 era is actually weaker than 0079 warships? Due to whatever reasons like treaties, budget cuts, era changes(battleships to MSs, like the WWII era main battleship 16"~18" cannons vs modern warships 155mm AGS?)

[toysdream]

If we take those Nu Gundam power outputs seriously - which I don't think we necessarily have to, since they come from the kit manuals and Entertainment Bible 3 rather than being part of the original published specs - then they're actually really strong evidence for the theory that these "output" specs actually represent the power required from the mobile suit's generator, and are thus automatically lower for E-CAP weapons.

According to the MG and HG-UC kit manuals, the Nu Gundam's shield cannon has its own dedicated generator. This is also used to charge up the high mega cannons of the HWS version, although it takes a long time to build up a charge. So this would be a "generator-connected type" that uses a condenser to gather and compress particles, while the beam rifle presumably uses an E-CAP and thus has lower power requirements.

In that case, it's reasonable that the Nu's beam rifle could be as powerful as a modern warship cannon, while its shield cannon is only as powerful as a One Year War-era beam rifle (and thus a One Year War-era warship cannon), even though the shield cannon has a higher output spec. It does make it much more complicated for us to compare weapon outputs, though!

-- Mark

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Hey guys. I didn't read the whole thread, so maybe this was addressed already, but can someone explain to me how a fusion reactor could be detonated?

The very idea seems to go against my understanding of physics.

This is a quirk of Gundam's fictional physics. The Universal Century timeline uses Minovsky reactors, which are H3-De fusion reactors made more efficient through the use of an "i-field", which is a magnetic field seeded with fictional "Minovsky particles" (named after the fictional guy who supposedly discovered them), which makes it far more efficient. Minovsky particles also make up the setting's beam weapons -- beam sabers are columns of plasma suspended in an i-field, while ranged beam weapons are made of of "mega particles", which are highly compressed and energized Minovsky particles.

Minovsky particles interact with each other, so when a beam weapon hits the i-field in a Minovsky reactor, the i-field is distorted. Since the size and shape of the reactor's i-field is what controls the fusion reaction, outside interference causes very bad things -- namely, compressing the plasma forces more fusion events to occur, which causes the plasma to heat up, which causes more fusion events to occur, and it's not long before you have a runaway chain reaction that blows up real good.

[MythSearcher]

This is a quirk of Gundam's fictional physics. The Universal Century timeline uses Minovsky reactors, which are H3-De fusion reactors made more efficient through the use of an "i-field", which is a magnetic field seeded with fictional "Minovsky particles" (named after the fictional guy who supposedly discovered them), which makes it far more efficient. Minovsky particles also make up the setting's beam weapons -- beam sabers are columns of plasma suspended in an i-field, while ranged beam weapons are made of of "mega particles", which are highly compressed and energized Minovsky particles.

Minovsky particles interact with each other, so when a beam weapon hits the i-field in a Minovsky reactor, the i-field is distorted. Since the size and shape of the reactor's i-field is what controls the fusion reaction, outside interference causes very bad things -- namely, compressing the plasma forces more fusion events to occur, which causes the plasma to heat up, which causes more fusion events to occur, and it's not long before you have a runaway chain reaction that blows up real good.

Don't think it works that way at all.
A Minovsky reactor compresses the fusion reactants with the I-Field, THEN decompresses and the lattice is filled with the reactants again.
Thus heating it with a beam weapon will trigger one compression worth of reactant, not a chain reaction.

I always have the POV that the Minovsky reactors don't detonate like a nuclear bomb, its just those not very scientifically minded soldiers and generals who think the explosion from one compression worth of reactant equals to a nuclear detonation. Even if you claim that it is still a nuclear bomb(the reaction is a nuclear one as opposed to a chemical one), I don't really think they are as powerful as what we usually think numclear bombs are IRL. Instead of something in the multiple kiloton class, its more like a few hundred kg worth of TNT in a lot of cases, some occasion maybe a few tons, but rarely, or never reaching kT level.