The Official Gundam Thunderbolt Anime Thread Mk I

[lingabao]

After Ep. 2, I'm really liking this series.

Not sure how it comes across in the manga, but in the anime Io is almost a reflection of the Gundam (the MS, not the series) fanboy who loves to see the Gundam visiting destruction on faceless Zaku pilots.

Meanwhile, the Zeon soldiers are used to show the sad human reality that in spite of how 'cool' it is, the Gundam is a war machine just like any other.

Definitely going to have to pick up the manga ...

[Gelgoog Jager]

This episode addresses the question of what happened to colonies of Side 1, 2 and 4 during the One Week War, and basically expands upon what was shown briefly on the original Gundam TV series: they were simply damaged/destroyed with beam shots from Zeon ships.

Still, I think this episode brought back the "canon" dilemma: we have Zaku I units with the configuration from Thunderbolt during the OWW, and back to the present we see several Oggos. Once more these make me question if Thunderbolt takes place in the same universe as previous UC animated works.

[balofo]

During the Zeon ceremony we see normal Zaku IIs.

[Gelgoog Jager]

During the Zeon ceremony we see normal Zaku IIs.

Checking more thoroughly the episode, we also see a Zaku I being parachuted to the ground, and it seems to lack the space-use vernier backpack. Also, while Daryl is performing tests with the incomplete Psycho Zaku, he imagines himself running with a Zaku II equipped with standard a F-type/J-type backpack. Both of these units retain space use verniers on their legs, but they seem to be ground units.

As for the units at A Baoa Qu, my guess is that for logistic purposes, the larger sections of the backpack have been removed. I imagine that this is not exclusive to the units seen there, but might also be the standard procedure for moving MS inside cramped spaces, such as a Musai hangar, where the protrusions from the Thunderbolt backpacks would severely limited the number of MS that can be fitted inside if they were being stored with the complete backpacks.

[Zeis]

Might be a little off-topic, if so, I apologize.

I might be forgetting something, but as far as I can remember, this series is the first time we've seen lots of ruined colonies in the same time period as the OYW. Sure, we've seen them in later series, but seeing Zeon snipers camped out in the wrecked colonies, the direct result of their mass murder of billions of defenseless civilians at the start of the war...it raises a fairly troubling question for me.

Have we EVER seen a Zeon character express any sort of guilt or remorse for their actions, or the actions of their nation during the war? Cima Garahau is the only person I can think of, and she barely even counts, since 1) her participation in gassing a colony was only established in that Mayfly of Space animated short, and not in Stardust Memory itself, and 2) becoming a cackling backstabber can't really be defined as 'remorse.'

We've heard plenty of characters go on about 'buh-buh-buh-but we were fighting for spacenoid independence! The Federation is corrupt!' Oh, there's no doubt about the Federation being corrupt, but just once I would love to hear a character in a Gundam show reply to that with 'yeah well they didn't murder half the human race. How many billions of innocent people is your independence worth?'

Am I the only person out there who finds this situation, along with the increasing amount of demonization of the Federation in newer UC productions (and a corresponding increasing amount of attempted justification of Zeon's actions) is pretty screwed up? Is this a reflection of Japan's...shall we say, complicated history regarding being on the losing end of a major war in which they committed war crimes?

[Gelgoog Jager]

Technically speaking, that's probably one of the most questionable aspects of Gundam Thunderbolt: in Zeta we see that there are a bunch of "new" colonies on the Sides that were supposedly wiped out by Zeon, with the particular exception of Side 5. It does seem weird that in the span of 7 years we suddenly have not only new colonies, but also people living on them.

I'm willing to accept that some colonies do might have been destroyed at Sides 1, 2 and 4, but the scenario proposed in Thunderbolt does seem to far fetched and is something I would only expect to see at Loum, where we do are told that basically all colonies there, minus Texas, were destroyed.

Also, some sources also claim that Zeon actually captured colonies at those Sides in order to use their manufacturing capabilities.

It doesn't really help matters when so far every official depiction of the Battle of Loum (MS Igloo, The Origin, etc.) seems to indicate that the battle took place away from the colonies, which further raises the question of how Loum was actually destroyed if it didn't happen during the actual battle. The unofficial version from the Gihren Greed series suggests that nuclear rounds from MS also destroyed some colonies, but again, the official depictions seem to suggest that nuclear weapons weren't used either during the Battle of Loum.

As it stands, it does seem questionable if Sides 1, 2 and 4 faced the kind of destruction that we are frequently told, but rather the evidence seem to indicate that just a few colonies were destroyed at those Sides, such as the colony the Titans tried to drop on Granada, the one the Argama used to test the Hyper Mega Particle Cannon and the one that Mashymere dropped on Dublin.

[Chris]

Technically speaking, that's probably one of the most questionable aspects of Gundam Thunderbolt: in Zeta we see that there are a bunch of "new" colonies on the Sides that were supposedly wiped out by Zeon, with the particular exception of Side 5. It does seem weird that in the span of 7 years we suddenly have not only new colonies, but also people living on them.

According to Mark's old Gundam Project site, the Sides were reorganized in UC 0084, so the names and arrangements used in the OYW era don't match what's in Zeta and beyond. We saw the start of this in 0083 with those two colonies being moved that the Delaz Fleet hijacked. In the end though, every OYW OVA introduces more inconsistencies, and I don't see anything particularly huge from Thunderbolt to suggest that we should presume it's an alternate UC.

[excalibur2008]

Might be a little off-topic, if so, I apologize.

I might be forgetting something, but as far as I can remember, this series is the first time we've seen lots of ruined colonies in the same time period as the OYW. Sure, we've seen them in later series, but seeing Zeon snipers camped out in the wrecked colonies, the direct result of their mass murder of billions of defenseless civilians at the start of the war...it raises a fairly troubling question for me.

Have we EVER seen a Zeon character express any sort of guilt or remorse for their actions, or the actions of their nation during the war? Cima Garahau is the only person I can think of, and she barely even counts, since 1) her participation in gassing a colony was only established in that Mayfly of Space animated short, and not in Stardust Memory itself, and 2) becoming a cackling backstabber can't really be defined as 'remorse.'

We've heard plenty of characters go on about 'buh-buh-buh-but we were fighting for spacenoid independence! The Federation is corrupt!' Oh, there's no doubt about the Federation being corrupt, but just once I would love to hear a character in a Gundam show reply to that with 'yeah well they didn't murder half the human race. How many billions of innocent people is your independence worth?'

Not to mention they weren't really fighting for independence, they were fighting to let the Zabis take over the Earth Sphere and put in under a fascist dictatorship.

[Amion]

Might be a little off-topic, if so, I apologize.

I might be forgetting something, but as far as I can remember, this series is the first time we've seen lots of ruined colonies in the same time period as the OYW. Sure, we've seen them in later series, but seeing Zeon snipers camped out in the wrecked colonies, the direct result of their mass murder of billions of defenseless civilians at the start of the war...it raises a fairly troubling question for me.

Have we EVER seen a Zeon character express any sort of guilt or remorse for their actions, or the actions of their nation during the war? Cima Garahau is the only person I can think of, and she barely even counts, since 1) her participation in gassing a colony was only established in that Mayfly of Space animated short, and not in Stardust Memory itself, and 2) becoming a cackling backstabber can't really be defined as 'remorse.'

We've heard plenty of characters go on about 'buh-buh-buh-but we were fighting for spacenoid independence! The Federation is corrupt!' Oh, there's no doubt about the Federation being corrupt, but just once I would love to hear a character in a Gundam show reply to that with 'yeah well they didn't murder half the human race. How many billions of innocent people is your independence worth?'

Not to mention they weren't really fighting for independence, they were fighting to let the Zabis take over the Earth Sphere and put in under a fascist dictatorship.

Sieg Zeon.

Well, the soldiers mostly were fighting for independence. If we really believe what some of them claim about not knowing what their superiors were up to with all that otherwise useless poison gas, which I don't.

It's this contradiction that makes Zeon so palpable an existence in the franchise. They really are like people in real life in the scope of their actions versus their reactions and goals, another in a long list of human tragedies with ambitious noble-sounding claims that produce catastrophic, contradictory results. *sheds tear* Oh well. At least they didn't EAT each other!

Yet.

And wait, wait wait. Back up. Where's episode two. How have I missed episode two? *Facepalms and reaches for google search tab*

EDIT after search: hmm...not seeing it on gundaminfo anywhere...

[Zeis]

My issue isn't the technical details behind Side organization (for the record I always assumed the only Side that was completely wiped out was Side 5, and that the destruction of 1, 2, and 4 wasn't total). My issue is how nonchalant the Zeon characters seem to be about fighting in what is essentially a graveyard for a billion innocent people, people who are all dead as a direct result of their nation.

In one scene we see a little kid's tricycle floating past the transport Gattle's window, while the pilot is talking about how there might be ghosts around. He's doing this with a smile on his face, and all I could think was, how can you joke around in a place like this? Are you and your comrades really so divorced from reality? There's proof of an atrocity of an unparalleled scale floating all around you. I get that a soldier has to has a certain disconnection from the things they might have to do during a war, but all it would take is just one look around at Side 4 for even the most jaded person to ask, how could this possibly have been justified?

The lack of any sort of reflection or remorse on the part of the characters, not just in Thunderbolt, but from Zeon-affiliated characters in general, that's my issue. I could sort of let it slide in other shows, but with Thunderbolt, it's very, very difficult for me to ignore.

[Amion]

As far as I'm concerned most of human history is writhe with examples of soldiers either not giving a gundamn, for whatever reason.

It does make me ask why people think Zanscare soldiers are cartoon villainous, despite not killing anywhere near as much, and making points on-screen about "this WILL be justified by the results, we promise you". The Zeon just kind of Sieg Zeon and soldier onward with nary a comment, although sometimes they give off a stony silence like Zinnerman where it's clear they'd rather just not think about the consequences and anyone who brings it up.

My personal explanation for why they were willing to do what they did comes from what we know of religion basically disappearing, and Zeon replacing God as their "Light" as Marida mentions to Banagre. That makes things fall into perfect focus for me on how "empty" the UC world is of moral guides, which is why Contolism took on such steam, why the Federation was so swift to react for years, spawning the Titans and such, to these ideas filling a void they supposedly made when they abolished the old order of things pre/early UC.

[andrepyon]

As far as I'm concerned most of human history is writhe with examples of soldiers either not giving a gundamn, for whatever reason.

It does make me ask why people think Zanscare soldiers are cartoon villainous, despite not killing anywhere near as much, and making points on-screen about "this WILL be justified by the results, we promise you". The Zeon just kind of Sieg Zeon and soldier onward with nary a comment, although sometimes they give off a stony silence like Zinnerman where it's clear they'd rather just not think about the consequences and anyone who brings it up.

My personal explanation for why they were willing to do what they did comes from what we know of religion basically disappearing, and Zeon replacing God as their "Light" as Marida mentions to Banagre. That makes things fall into perfect focus for me on how "empty" the UC world is of moral guides, which is why Contolism took on such steam, why the Federation was so swift to react for years, spawning the Titans and such, to these ideas filling a void they supposedly made when they abolished the old order of things pre/early UC.

I think this is a pretty good explanation of why the UC ends up essentially being the worst era of human history. Because, without the traditional morals established in religion, they are left to follow Zeon or the belief in their absolute democracy (in terms of the Federation) as Daguza calls the Federation government a "vengeful god" who wipes out all dissent as quickly as possible and "without mercy." And yet you still see the old vestiges of religion in place and "God" is thrown around at times to be used as a justification just as today. And this goes to further prove the argument of religion causing all wars is bunk. Humanity, whether it justifies it's actions through religion, national defense, ideological expansion, or Spacenoid Independence as is the case with Zeon, is the root cause of all wars.

Also, these Zeon soldiers are all damaged both physically and emotionally. Losing limbs is psychologically damaging as well and in a wartime situation where you essentially become guinea pigs for the Zeon war effort, I'm sure there is not any time set aside for anything but physical healing. And this also goes into why sometimes you hear cops or EMTs and firefighters making jokes out of utterly horrifying situations on scene. They have to cope with what they're dealing with and a morbid humor is one of those outlets to achieve that. I'm sure most Zeon soldiers had to be well indoctrinated and constantly shellacking on many coats of "Sieg Zeon" to washout some of what the did and saw.

[zetatype]

We've heard plenty of characters go on about 'buh-buh-buh-but we were fighting for spacenoid independence! The Federation is corrupt!' Oh, there's no doubt about the Federation being corrupt, but just once I would love to hear a character in a Gundam show reply to that with 'yeah well they didn't murder half the human race. How many billions of innocent people is your independence worth?'

I think the reason why this is never brought up is because when you look at all the animated works do any of them actually address how half of the human population died? We always hear about Operation British and the Battle of Loum, but almost nothing specifically about sides 1, 2, and 4 during the opening shots of the OYW.

When I first started with the Universal Century I had assumed the destruction of sides 1, 2, and 4 and their inhabitants were the result of collateral damage. It wasn't until I read some of the guide books that I found out Zeon deliberately wiped out the populations of the sides.

I assume that when the lore for the Universal Century was first written nobody had any idea how popular Zeon would be so Sunrise is reluctant to acknowledge this act of mass murder in the animated works. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if half the UC fanbase was unaware of these details or doesn't consider them canon since only animated works are considered "official".

So in short, the reason why its never brought up is because technically the issue doesn't exist.

Am I the only person out there who finds this situation, along with the increasing amount of demonization of the Federation in newer UC productions (and a corresponding increasing amount of attempted justification of Zeon's actions) is pretty screwed up? Is this a reflection of Japan's...shall we say, complicated history regarding being on the losing end of a major war in which they committed war crimes?

It bothers me a little though the only animated works where its an issue for me are "0083" and "MS Igloo".

[Admiral Larsen]

Might be a little off-topic, if so, I apologize.

I might be forgetting something, but as far as I can remember, this series is the first time we've seen lots of ruined colonies in the same time period as the OYW. Sure, we've seen them in later series, but seeing Zeon snipers camped out in the wrecked colonies, the direct result of their mass murder of billions of defenseless civilians at the start of the war...it raises a fairly troubling question for me.

Have we EVER seen a Zeon character express any sort of guilt or remorse for their actions, or the actions of their nation during the war? Cima Garahau is the only person I can think of, and she barely even counts, since 1) her participation in gassing a colony was only established in that Mayfly of Space animated short, and not in Stardust Memory itself, and 2) becoming a cackling backstabber can't really be defined as 'remorse.'

We've heard plenty of characters go on about 'buh-buh-buh-but we were fighting for spacenoid independence! The Federation is corrupt!' Oh, there's no doubt about the Federation being corrupt, but just once I would love to hear a character in a Gundam show reply to that with 'yeah well they didn't murder half the human race. How many billions of innocent people is your independence worth?'

Am I the only person out there who finds this situation, along with the increasing amount of demonization of the Federation in newer UC productions (and a corresponding increasing amount of attempted justification of Zeon's actions) is pretty screwed up? Is this a reflection of Japan's...shall we say, complicated history regarding being on the losing end of a major war in which they committed war crimes?

Not really that much of a surprise and yes it is also worrying. It seems that fans let Zeon a free pass while never ever, ever, ever forgive the Federation for the creation of the Titans (and of course the Laplace bombing at the beginning of Unicorn).

[balofo]

Great mecha porn in ep 4 and it ends as they near A Baoa Qu. Will they continue the anime?

[Deacon Blues]

Definitely not the ending I was expecting for this series... it's almost like they're trolling fans of the manga with it. It's funny how several panels/pages in a manga can slow down how action seems yet when it's animated it is at warp speed.

I think they'll probably end the story here. Given the current plot of the manga (and it's utterly ridiculous slow down), I don't think it would bode well adopting it into an animated format. Though I would love to see the kamikaze attack on the Spartan animated

[balofo]

The Thunderbolt anime was weird, it came out of nowhere with redesigned mecha but they just re-released the old manga ones with no new MS in the line...

Do they expect to profit with only on BD/on demand sales?

[Imperial]

I think this is a pretty good explanation of why the UC ends up essentially being the worst era of human history. Because, without the traditional morals established in religion, they are left to follow Zeon or the belief in their absolute democracy (in terms of the Federation) as Daguza calls the Federation government a "vengeful god" who wipes out all dissent as quickly as possible and "without mercy."

That whole segment was dumb.

We know that the old calendar religions still exist in the UC. There are people seen praying in the ZZ Africa arc, for instance.

So trying to push this idea that the Spacenoids worship the Zeonic ideology is insane. The same Zeons who gassed and destroyed their colonies? The whole thing smacked of Zeon wank.

I don't see how "the traditional morals established in religion" mean anything either. Morality and religion actually have very little to do with each other. Want to talk about the Crusades?

[Kuruni]

I don't see how "the traditional morals established in religion" mean anything either. Morality and religion actually have very little to do with each other. Want to talk about the Crusades?

Well, I guess we are really close to crossing "no religion" policy, so I will keep it brief.

andrepyon is actually right. "Traditional morals" is indeed what established in religion. Now, "traditional morals" is merely mockery of actual morals. It is no longer about "does some thing because it is right", but about "does something because it is what teaching say".

[Gelgoog Jager]

I've been thinking on how does the destruction seen in Thunderbolt fits with the repopulated Sides seen on Zeta and afterwards.

I'm considering that perhaps one possibility is that if Zeon did destroyed the other Sides almost as badly as Side 5, it's not very logical that we see repopulated Sides later on, unless this population came from elsewhere:

In 0083 we learn of the colony reclamation project to cope with the overpopulation at Side 3. This project involves transporting island 3 colonies to Side 3. However in 0083 we only learn of this project operating twice, involving the movement of about 4 colonies. What if the project actually had a much larger scope and actually continued after the events of Operation Stardust?

The first thing we need to figure is exactly how overpopulated Side 3 is. The known details is that it has about 40 closed type colonies and a population of roughly 2 billion people (other Sides using island 3 colonies houses about 1 billion people). This gives us a population of roughly 50 million per colony. To find out whether this is high or not, we can take a look at this site:

http://www.dyarstraights.com/gundam-tes ... e-know-it/
http://www.dyarstraights.com/gundam-tes ... alf-lives/

There are actually many scenarios presented here, but in one section it mentions that the numbers observed in Gundam of populations of about 3-10 million for island 3 colonies and 6-20 for closed type colonies are the ones most likely correct. It Laos mentions that closed type colonies are only one third as pleasant to live than at island 3 colonies.

Ultimately this do would point to a very significant overpopulation problem at Side 3. And considering that Side 3 didn't suffer any civilian casualties, the OYW didn't do much to lower its population.

Therefore I think that perhaps the colony reclamation project involved transporting the island 3 colonies to Side 3, move part of the population to them and then move the colonies back to Sides 1, w and 4. This scenario could also justify why later Neo Zeon movements do seem to have support from the population of these Sides: they are now largely populated by people originally from Side 3.

That being said, I'm not sure if the remaining population could actually allow mankind to reach 11 billion mark again by U.C. 0093, as suggested by Quess.