How large were the ranks of the Neo Zeon and the Sleeved ?

[UC fan]

How large were the ranks of every incarnation of Neo Zeon?

[Red Comet90]

I don't think there has ever been a definite answer for how many there were. I recall the booklet that came with Char's Counterattack mentioned 14 ships in total along with 82 Geara Dogas, Two Jagd Dogas, the Sazabi, and Alpha Azieru. This isn't a complete account since it doesn't give personnel count per ship. Crew count has always been something that is rare in Gundam. If anything I'd estimate Char's Neo Zeon was a bit bigger than the AEUG since IIRC the AEUG uses about 80 MS in the Jaburo drop. As for Haman's Neo Zeon and the Sleeved I have no idea.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

In an old thread from Gundam Watch, toysdream said that Axis had about 250 Gaza C pilots when they first showed up in Zeta Gundam, and by the end of the series it's been reduced to around 80. He also notes that the total population of Axis is around 30,000 people -- 10,000 Zeon soldiers plus their families -- though whether that's the figure for 0080 when those who choose to flee from Side 3 first arrive, or for 0087 when they return to the Earth Sphere, I don't know.

Red Comet's numbers for Char's Neo Zeon sound about right -- I was going to say "less than 15 ships" and "less than 100 mobile suits", but couldn't remember the source for that info. He's got specific numbers and can cite them, so more power to him.

[mcred23]

For the original Aixs, they come back to Earth with 300 Gaza type machines, 250 Gaza-C's and 50 Gaza-E's. As BFK mentioned, only 80 of the Gaza-C's survive the fighting with the AEUG and Titans at the end of the Gryps War. Mark explained some details on that, and a few other Axis MS numbers, in this thread, which end up being quite large in some cases (Such as the 800 Gaza-Cs built). There was another thread that mentioned the numbers for other Axis MS, so I'll dig around and see if I can find that. For their ship numbers, IIRC, it was very small, something like 20 warships (If even that) of all types (Most being Endra class crusiers).

For the Second Neo Zeon, Char's, Mark mentioned that about 100 Geara Dogas were produced, 82 of which saw combat. The booklet that comes with the DVD of CCA says that Char's fleet includes 82 Geara Dogas, I guess the rest are at Anaheim or Sweetwater or somewhere, plus the assorted other units (Sazabi, Jagd Dogas, etc). In terms of warships, the fleet has 13 Musaka crusiers (Which are numbered, rather than named like normal ships) and the Rewloola.

And I have no idea what the Sleeved is, or what their numbers may be, so I'll leave that to someone else.

[Oruma]

And I have no idea what the Sleeved is, or what their numbers may be, so I'll leave that to someone else.

The Zeon remnants in Gundam Unicorn. You know, Full Frontal & the lot?

[mcred23]

The Zeon remnants in Gundam Unicorn. You know, Full Frontal & the lot?

Haven't read Unicorn, so I never knew their lil' contingent of Neo Zeons had a name.

[UC fan]

LOL, did you see the site yet man? I hope they mention their numbers in the anime or the scorcebooks if they release it here.

[Deacon Blues]

They didn't give concrete numbers for the fleets that I've seen, unfortunately. The only indication we have is the initial battle of Paulu early on in the series.

Earth Federation Forces

Nahal Argama
MSN-001A1 Delta Plus x 1
RGZ-95 ReZEL x 3
RGM-89S Stark Jegan x 1
D-50-C Loto x 3

Neo Zeon Fleet

Rewloola
Refit Musai
Refit Chibe
AMS-129 Geara Zulu x 11
MSN-06S Sinanju x 1

Garencieres

AMS-129 Geara Zulu x 3
NZ-666 Kshatriya x 1

Paulu

AMX-003 Gaza C x 15
AMX-006 Gaza D x 15
EWAC Zack x 5
AMS-119 Geara Doga x 5

[toysdream]

For the original Aixs, they come back to Earth with 300 Gaza type machines, 250 Gaza-C's and 50 Gaza-E's. As BFK mentioned, only 80 of the Gaza-C's survive the fighting with the AEUG and Titans at the end of the Gryps War. Mark explained some details on that, and a few other Axis MS numbers, in this thread, which end up being quite large in some cases (Such as the 800 Gaza-Cs built). There was another thread that mentioned the numbers for other Axis MS, so I'll dig around and see if I can find that. For their ship numbers, IIRC, it was very small, something like 20 warships (If even that) of all types (Most being Endra class crusiers).

I think I wasn't entirely clear in that thread; according to Newtype magazine, the ZZ-era Neo Zeon ends up with 800 mobile suits total. Specifically, Newtype claims that during the Neo Zeon civil war at the end of the series, Haman's forces have about 500 mobile suits and Glemy's forces have about 300, and each side has at least 10 warships.

I'm not sure how well this meshes with the animation, though. Judging from the animation, Glemy only seems to have a handful of ships and relatively few mobile suits, and it's only his Newtype Corps that enables him to hold his own against Haman. But judging by episode 44, Haman's main fleet (commanded by Chara) may have as many as 15 ships, so I have no trouble believing that the combined Neo Zeon fleet has more than 20 ships by the end of the series.

mcred23's tally of Char's Neo Zeon is correct. As for the Sleeves...

They didn't give concrete numbers for the fleets that I've seen, unfortunately. The only indication we have is the initial battle of Paulu early on in the series.

Good news and bad news here. I don't think these figures for the Palau forces are entirely accurate; although the Gundam Ace feature lists precise tallies for the mobile suits carried by the Rewloola and Garencieres, no numbers are listed for the other types. I think when they show a lineup of 15 Gaza C and 15 Gaza D silhouettes, with the rightmost silhouettes gradually fading out to nothing, it's just meant to represent "many". The same goes for the Geara Zulu silhouettes that are shown alongside the Sleeves' cruiser fleet; there are six of these, likewise fading out to nothing, which indicates that there are a bunch of these but not as many as the Gaza units.

On the other hand, at the end of the series, we get a very precise tally of the Neo Zeon forces. In the final section of the story, "Over the Rainbow," we're told that the main Tennyson fleet consists of nine Musaka cruisers and six camouflaged transport ships (similar to the Garencieres). The Nahel Argama crew estimate that these ship types carry six and three mobile suits respectively, for a grand total of 72 mobile suits.

In addition to the Tennyson fleet, the Rewloola also has two Musaka cruisers as escorts. Assuming these ships are fully loaded, they'd carry a total of 24 mobile suits. That gives us a grand total of one Rewloola, eleven Musaka cruisers, six camouflaged transport ships, and 96 ship-based mobile suits - pretty much the same size as Char's Neo Zeon fleet. As before, the mobile suits are a grab bag of new Geara Zulus, relatively new Geara Dogas, and older machines from the ZZ era.

-- Mark

[Kenji]

The Rewloola seems obviously so, but is there any chance that the Musaka-class carriers and Geara Dogas are the leftovers from Char's Axis drop operation? Combined with what seems to have been the surplus Gaza units from Haman's Neo Zeon (the numbers seem to indicate more machines than pilots), it would seem that the Sleeved only bring a set of Geara Zulus and the Kshatriya to the table, making it (production-wise) the smallest Neo Zeon movement yet.

Would this be an accurate summation?

[toysdream]

The Rewloola seems obviously so, but is there any chance that the Musaka-class carriers and Geara Dogas are the leftovers from Char's Axis drop operation? Combined with what seems to have been the surplus Gaza units from Haman's Neo Zeon (the numbers seem to indicate more machines than pilots), it would seem that the Sleeved only bring a set of Geara Zulus and the Kshatriya to the table, making it (production-wise) the smallest Neo Zeon movement yet.

I think the Unicorn novel mentions that the Sleeves have built a few more Musakas at Palau; one definitely gets the impression that Char's fleet lost more than two of them in the course of the movie, so they'd have had to.

Personally, I'm dying to know where these ships came from in the first place. While the AEUG has a handful of new ships built by Anaheim and the rest of its ships are stolen or defected from the Federation Forces, and Haman has the industrial power of Axis at her disposal, it's never been clear to me how Char was able to secretly construct a dozen-plus ships with no real base of operations.

But yeah, the Sleeves rely mainly on leftovers from previous incarnations of Neo Zeon. It seems like the final battle at the end of Gundam Unicorn should take care of all these loose ends, but that's what we thought last time...

-- Mark

[JEFFPIATT]

AE may have built the ships at side 3 and the sleeved got all of the remaining equipment
made for char built and deployed it.
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Listening to: Sharon Little - Peppermint And Glue
via FoxyTunes

[Gelgoog Jager]

Regarding Neo Zeon forces, Some time ago I posted a screen capture showing a screen on Glemy's monitor during the Battle of Axis, which showed 11 dots gathered around Axis and about 24 dots gathered around Core 3. The animation doesn't show that many ships, especially in Glemy's case in which only the Sandra and the Gwanban are seen on his side, but I'm still inclined to think that those are ships, which would give a grand total of 35 ships (plus 2 Endras that were sunk earlier, the original Endra, and the one Judau sunk while looking for Leina before meeting Haman inside the Sadalahn).

As for Neo Zeon MS, I just want to note that not all of their MS are new machines. During the battle of Axis, both sides are seen with Titans' MS among their ranks, mainly Hi-Zacks and Marasais. And, although not seen during this battle, Neo Zeon also continues to use older MS, especially Zaku IIs. The Axis MS losses during the the Gryps war seemed a bit too many for me, but it could be possible if many of these units were lost along with the two Gwadan class ships that sunk during the conflict. However I do find odd that these losses only include Gaza C and not Gaza E, despite 1 out of every 6 units supposedly being a Gaza E.

In CCA, IIRC, 4 Musakas got destroyed: the 3 ships that along with the Rewloola captured Axis, and the 4th ship that brought the nukes form Luna II. After Axis has been broke in half, it's implied that the only ship left is the Rewloola. That gives us 9 surviving Musakas, which probably make up the Tennyson fleet Mark mentioned. I have seen some magazines pictures showing some green Musakas. Anyone knows if these green ships are the two escorts of the Rewoloola, maybe indicating that new ships use this new color scheme?

On the other hand, what about the other Zeon ships that appear, the Musai Kai and Chivvay Kai, (which by the way, the scans indicate are based on the MS Igloo designs of the original ships)? Are they part of the Sleeved or do they belong to the Republic of Zeon? Another scan showed a Hi-Zack Custom in Zeon colors, but without the sleeves that are the symbol of that group, so at the very least it indicates that not all Zeon forces of that period are part of the Sleeved.

Finally, a bit out of topic, but anyone has some figures for the Delaz fleet, Gato fleet and the Cima fleet?

During the collision of the colonies, Cima has 8 ships, seen as dots from far away, and if we include the one sunk by the Birmingham, this gives her a total of nine ships.

The Gato fleet seems to have at least 11 Musais and apparently as many Pazock class supply ships just before attacking Solomon/Konpeitoh. Their MS numbers points towards 3 MS per Musai.

Finally, almost at the same time, the Delaz fleet itself is seen moving around the moon, and while it's difficult to tell apart the ships surrounding the Gwaden, about 6 of these seem to be Musais, and at least 3 of them are supply ships.

[Oruma]

Haven't read Unicorn, so I never knew their lil' contingent of Neo Zeons had a name.

Neither have I, although I have had the novels for ages

[toysdream]

Regarding Neo Zeon forces, Some time ago I posted a screen capture showing a screen on Glemy's monitor during the Battle of Axis, which showed 11 dots gathered around Axis and about 24 dots gathered around Core 3.

D'oh, I forgot about that! Good point about Axis's use of older machines, too.

However I do find odd that these losses only include Gaza C and not Gaza E, despite 1 out of every 6 units supposedly being a Gaza E.

The claim that only 80 of the original 250 Gaza C units survived the Gryps Conflict comes from the 1/144 Ga Zowm manual, which was written before the Gaza E had been invented. Gundam Sentinel indicates that roughly one out of every six Gaza mobile suits is actually a Gaza E, which gives us a nice round number of 300 machines, but we don't have separate casualty figures for this type.

In any case, Gundam ZZ indicates that they made a bunch more Gaza C units afterwards. The Japanese sources usually claim that production shifted over to the Gaza D, but in the animation we see very few D types for most of the series, while the C type keeps showing up in vast numbers. (By my tally, the Endra alone goes through 19 Gaza C units before it finally gets blown up!)

On the other hand, what about the other Zeon ships that appear, the Musai Kai and Chivvay Kai, (which by the way, the scans indicate are based on the MS Igloo designs of the original ships)? Are they part of the Sleeved or do they belong to the Republic of Zeon? Another scan showed a Hi-Zack Custom in Zeon colors, but without the sleeves that are the symbol of that group, so at the very least it indicates that not all Zeon forces of that period are part of the Sleeved.

Yep, Republic of Zeon forces do show up towards the end of the story. The original info feature on the Battle of Palau suggested that the Sleeves might have some Musais in their fleet, but only Musakas are actually mentioned in the text and there are no Musais in the later tally of their fleet strength. The Republic of Zeon, on the other hand, uses the Chivvay Kai and Musai Kai later on in the novel.

Finally, a bit out of topic, but anyone has some figures for the Delaz fleet, Gato fleet and the Cima fleet?

This is kind of the reverse of the usual situation; there are plenty of detailed numbers from different publishers, but they all contradict each other and none of them really agree with the animation.

The most commonly cited numbers come from Keibunsha's Gundam 0083 book series, which says the Delaz Fleet (including Gato's detachment) has about 15 Musai cruisers, 20 transport and supply ships, and 60 mobile suits. The Cima Fleet is credited with seven Musai cruisers and 30 mobile suits. This is the tally that the Gundam Officials encyclopedia went with.

The Newtype 100% Collection offers a detailed chart of the Delaz, Gato, Cima, and Axis fleets which lists their strengths as follows:

* Delaz Fleet: Gwaden, Musai x 4, Papua and Pazock x 12, MS x 16 (plus Gwaden)
* Gato Fleet: Musai x 9, Papua and Pazock x 6, MS x 36
* Cima Fleet: Lili Marleen, Musai x 6-7, MS x 30-34
* Axis Advance Fleet: Gwanzan, Musai x 8, Papua and Pazock x 10

And then we have a couple of sources that I'd otherwise take as gospel. The booklet in the first Gundam 0083 CD Cinema states flatly that the Cima Fleet has eight Musai cruisers (which, after the loss of one ship before the Naval Review, would leave us the above-cited seven ships). And MS WARS says that the combined Delaz and Cima Fleets have 16-17 Musai cruisers, while the Axis Advance Fleet has eight.

As you noticed, the animation shows as many as eleven ships in Gato's detachment, and perhaps as many as six in Delaz's group. I might suggest taking the "16-17 ships" figure from the otherwise reliable MS WARS and saying that it actually applies to the Delaz Fleet alone. This would match the "roughly 15 ships" estimate favored by Gundam Officials, and seems consistent with the animation. In addition to the 8 (later 7) Musai cruisers of the Cima Fleet, this gives the rebels a peak strength of 24-25 Musai cruisers, which is comparable to the AEUG and twice the size of Char's Neo Zeon or the Sleeves.

-- Mark