SRW Z3 - Jigoku-Hen

[angelwingzero]

Thought I'd make up a thread since this just got officially announced.
What we know so far:

-This is the last installment of the Z series and will be split into two chapters, this being the first.

-Release Date: Apr/10/2013

-Here's the series list:

Invincible Robo Trider G7
Messenger of the Sun: Tetsujin-28 Go
Six God Combination Godmars
Aquarion Evol
Aim for the Top! Gunbuster
Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam: A New Translation
Mobile Suit Gundam: Char's Counterattack
Mobile Suit Gundam Unicorn
Mobile Suit Gundam Seed Destiny
Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz
Mobile Suit Gundam 00 the Movie: A wakening of the Trailblazer
Rebuild of Evangelion
Full Metal Panic!
Full Metal Panic? Fumoffu
Full Metal Panic! The Second Raid
Armored Trooper VOTOMS
Armored Trooper VOTOMS: Battle Of The Heterogeneous Species
Armored Trooper VOTOMS: Shining Heresy
The Super Dimension Century Orguss
Change!! Shin Getter Robo: The World's Last Day
Shin Mazinger Shougeki! Z Hen
Earth Defence Enterprise: Dai-Guard
Beast Machine Attack Dancouga Nova
The Big O
Code Geass: Lelouch of the Rebellion R2
Heaven-Piercing Gurren Lagann
Heaven-Piercing Gurren Lagann The Movie: The Lights in the Sky are Stars
Macross 7
Macross Dynamite 7
Macross Frontier
Macross Frontier the Movie: The Wings Of Goodbye
Banpresto Originals

[yazi88]

Z3 is also going to be divided into 2 parts like F/F Final and Z2 Hakai/Sansei.

I also believe there are 6 slots left open for other series for part 2 of Z3.

[SCuDgundam]

Several people have said that 26 series have been confirmed, with a total of 32. However every time those people have said this, they have posted a list that contains 32 series. This tells me that, somewhere up the line, someone doesn't know how to count.

[Mu La Flaga]

I said it before and I will say it again here.
Apart from speculating if some series leave or not or come back in part 2(for instance Xabungle and After War Gundam X)
I would like it if some older series had room for secrets, for instance maybe Stella in Gaia Gundam Yzak and Dearka in their units from SEED, Cagalli in Rouge.
Fun potential stuff like that, depends what they do I suppose.

[angelwingzero]

It's also semi-confirmed that this game will have a squad or team system, instead of just all individual units like Z2.

[Raikoh]

There was a Famitsu scan I ran across a while back. It came with some extra bits of information:

- Wanted to add more shows but they are playing it safe due to various reasons. The staff was happy on working with Gunbuster again. One of the teams working on the animations couldn’t wait to draw Noriko.
- New sphere holders originals will be like nothing before seen.
- They made the game available on Vita and PS3 to widen their audiences, they are thankful for the cross compatible systems with Vita and PS3 since it gives them room to work with a lot of things
- Z3 is split into 2 parts, they plan for the grand finale to be even bigger than OE.
- Patlabor’s debut was intented for Z3, but they decided to put it in OE instead.
- Full Metal Panic’s Shoji Gatoh was more than thrilled to hear about the addition of the show on a console
- There’s no plans for SRW on next gen at the moment.
- Work on Z3 started in 2012, the game is about 80% completed.
- Expect many surprises and more secrets than in previous SRW
- DLC is still being considered, but won’t impact any gameplay elements.

Now that it's been given some time to stew over in my head, I have some thoughts based on the trailer as well as the series list. Put into a spoiler list because this list is LONG.

Spoiler

- I really wish we could've had more than just Unicorn and Evol as new [to SRW] series (technically there are two more VOTOMS, but still). Z1 and Z2 brought in over a half dozen new faces each.
- From the looks of things, I'm guessing Shin Mazinger will have a place of prominence in the plot, likely based on the ending of the TV series that was not put into Z2. Seeing how the trailer showed Garadoublas, a Mycennae arc would be easy to graft onto the so-far anemic looking Earth route. Also that hopefully would mean we might be able to use Tetsuya? I'd love to use Tetsuya, even if he'd be forced into the Energer Z.
- On the subject of Shin Mazinger, I want the Borot to be funny again.
- Since the Super Robot series list has been chopped down massively (from the way I count it has gone from 17 series to 12. If I counted it differently that change would be even bigger.), I hope this means that some units like Kokubogar and Beck the Great might be usable again. If only to make up for the miniscule number of Super Robots.
- There's been confusion about how CCA/Unicorn will fit in with Zeta. Something that hit me is that the Gunbuster time dilation plot point might come into play there. Maybe.
- I was initially upset that Trider remained while some other series remained... Then I remembered that the Shuttle was the best support unit ever (and the "President" skill was rather useful) and now I'm glad it made the cut.
- Hopefully Evol is as broken as old Aquarion.
- From the trailer, I think it's possible that Dai-Guard will permanently have the Great Knot Punisher equipped. The attack it used in the trailer was more like a basic melee attack than its Knot Punisher. Plus side: it'd be cool and fit in with the continuity of the show. Minus side: No more Rocket Punch?
- If all goes well, this might be the first game where Mao and Kurz DON'T see the bench all the time.
- The basic animations could use some work. Kouji's Rocket Punch wasn't that impressive, and all the combat knife attacks were pretty bad. Hopefully Lambda Driver will fix that.
- Super Galaxy GL is nice, but it might not be the best upgrade if it comes too late in the game. If I remember correctly it only had around four attacks I can think of, and two of them wouldn't be "Post-Movement." Well, having a boatload of HP and a ton of subpilots might help. I guess it'd be sort of like a light Valzacard?
- The Famitsu scan I think has at least hinted at the return of old series for part 2. Maybe even the addition of Patlabor?
- How many secrets can they have with a series list like this? Most of the stories are either over or don't have much elbow room for secrets.

[SCuDgundam]

In reply to Raikoh:
- Boss Borot is no longer funny because Shin Mazinger didn't make it funny. You'd have to get the original Borot back for that (I miss him too).
- I am also hoping that Beck and whoever it is who pilots Kokubougar decide to see sense and join the team this time. How can they hope to be master criminals/aloof military men with no universe to be those things in? ' 3'
- What bugged me about Trider returning was that Zambot and Daitarn hadn't. It felt weird to lose combination attack partners like that. I realised that those latter two shows still have baggage (We never get to see Banjou deal with the Meganoids, and the Zambot crew probably need grief counseling or something), while Trider has no big dramatic plot to speak of, and can be in literally any game Banpresto likes.
- I think that Mazinger's rocket punch is better for being basic-looking, rather than the overblown angle-cheating procedure shown in Z2. It means they have to be less lazy with the games' trademark attack aiming. And as for FMP, if what has been said previously is true, then the Arbalest won't be Sousuke's ultimate unit, so it makes sense for its attacks to not look as cool as we want them to be.
- As for Super-Galactic GL having a ton of subpilots, you won't get that. Ship mode will probably have Dayakka, Leeron and Yoko, Robot mode will most likely just be Simon and Viral. It'd be too big a retcon at this point to actually indicate that Attenborough, Makken, Leyte, and the rest actually exist. I'm still pissed off about this, if you can't tell. Rossiu's emotionless aides got more exposure than they did.

In reply to AngelwingZero: I hope against hope that that's true. This PV didn't indicate that there was any kind of squad system in place, unlike the first PV for Z1.

[Shinji103]

Yeah, the trailer is clearly using the same one they used for Z2, as in a less-powerful system designed for lower-power handhelds. Considering this is going to be on the PS3 (and even the VITA has HD-level power), they'd better not be sticking with that system we see in the trailer. Or there will be mass disappointment.

And I hope the squad system comes back too. Squads make it so much easier to level up your support mechs and pilots. ^^b It may just have not been in this trailer since there will probably be a more comprehensive trailer sometime by March which will also give us intros for the Banpresto Originals as well. And hopefully they'll be using a better animation/garphics engine for this HD system-based game.

[yazi88]

The original Z 1st PV didn't show the squad mechanics either so we'll have to wait and see for more PVs.

[SCuDgundam]

Indeed it did not show off the squad mechanics, but it did show a few units using ALL attacks against multiple targets, as you can see here. This game coming up shows no such thing, and is much further along in development than the first one was by the time they showed evidence of their work. We have good reason to be skeptical.

Yeah, the trailer is clearly using the same one they used for Z2, as in a less-powerful system designed for lower-power handhelds. Considering this is going to be on the PS3 (and even the VITA has HD-level power), they'd better not be sticking with that system we see in the trailer. Or there will be mass disappointment...... hopefully they'll be using a better animation/garphics engine for this HD system-based game.

Now this I have to disagree with. You seem to be implying that the graphics are the biggest issue here, and you couldn't be further from the truth. These sprites are the best the Z series has ever had. Everything is already in HD. Besides, they have said the game is 80% complete at this point, this is as good as you're ever going to get.

oh god, why am I acting like a jerk? is this what happens naturally when talking with other fans?

[Shinji103]

Maybe I should have said combat animations instead of speaking of graphics in general.

The battle animations are the same as the ones in Z2; not bad but cheaper/"dinkier" than even in Z1. They're less dynamic than the combat animations in OG 2nd and even the original Z1. It was understandable that the combat animations were toned down somewhat for a handheld, but this is the PS3/PSV, with a much stronger engine and more memory. They already showed what they can do with that in OG 2nd, but according to the animations used in the PV, they're downgrading back to PSP-level combat animations.

[SCuDgundam]

http://srw-z3-jigoku.suparobo.jp/images ... 02_s01.jpg

LORD ZEUS. AT LAST.

They're gonna have a right merry old time explaining how he got his right forearm back though. That is, if they bother at all.

[AmuroNT1]

Also, if anyone missed it, Banpresto already trademarked the name for the sequel - Tengoku-hen. But as with this game, they pulled a sneaky swap with the kanji. Normally Tengoku (天国) means Heaven - literally "kingdom of the sky". But they swapped out the "koku" kanji (meaning country) with 獄 "goku" (meaning prison, same as the second kanji in 地獄, Hell).

In other words, the game's title is "Sky/Heaven Prison Chapter".

[angelwingzero]

http://srw-z3-jigoku.suparobo.jp/images ... 02_s01.jpg

LORD ZEUS. AT LAST.

They're gonna have a right merry old time explaining how he got his right forearm back though. That is, if they bother at all.

Time travel, boom!

[Raikoh]

Some more Famitsu scans have come up.

Spoiler

Partner System Confirmed!
It seems to use L as a base for combat, but also adding in Partner Commands - "Multi Action", "Bonus PP", "Bonus Chip", and "Charge SP". And something called "Tag Tension".

[Shinji103]

Some more Famitsu scans have come up.

Well that's disturbing.....

That map layout is the directly-above 2D layout that they use in the handheld SRWs to save on memory and data space with the handhelds' more limited capacity, as opposed to the 3D multi-angle map layout used in every console SRW game since the Playstation......
Likewise, the character/mech sprites are the head-only type also used on the handhelds to save memory and data space, as opposed to the full-model 3D models used on consoles.

That had better not be a final-version map screenshot. This is supposed to be an HD level game for the PS3, not a handheld or even just the PSV.

[Raikoh]

Some more Famitsu scans have come up.

Well that's disturbing.....

That map layout is the directly-above 2D layout that they use in the handheld SRWs to save on memory and data space with the handhelds' more limited capacity, as opposed to the 3D multi-angle map layout used in every console SRW game since the Playstation......
Likewise, the character/mech sprites are the head-only type also used on the handhelds to save memory and data space, as opposed to the full-model 3D models used on consoles.

That had better not be a final-version map screenshot. This is supposed to be an HD level game for the PS3, not a handheld or even just the PSV.

I actually embrace the 2D layout. Being terrible at games like Q*Bert, I find the control of the tilted angle hard to wrap my head around so not needing to focus on just moving the units from place to place and stuff is something I prefer (I guess I'm spoiled in this respect). Besides, the game is being released on both PS3 and Vita, so I'd attribute it to the fact that they don't want to have to redo all the maps for both, I think. Having an option would be nice, but in all honesty I don't think Banpresto puts maps very high on their priority lists.

[Shinji103]

It's not a problem of ease of play, it's a problem of them cheap-ing out on us and giving us under-par work on a game for a console that is designed and expected to be the highest quality and performance of its generation. Just look at 2nd OG. They went to the trouble of revamping a ton of things, like new combat animations, making them more fluid, and makling good use of the fact the PS3 is an HD console as opposed to the non-HD consoles they'd been using before 2nd OG.

And 2nd OG also proved that Banpresto does care very much about maps, or at leats hat they did. They went to painstaking lengths to add all kinds of tweaks and new tidbits, like 3D sprites that actually move at the limb joints when you move them across squares and capes that flow, that all add up to to a more visually attractive experience. Banpresto has always upped its game quality with each gaming system upgrade.

But now they cheese out and give us handheld-level work on a high-performance console. They might as well have just left it PSV-exclusive, because the cheapness shown in the map creation isn't going to impress the fans. Expect the PS3-version sales to take a hit; anybody with both a PS3 and PSV is probably not going to bother paying extra for the PS3 version when it only has handheld-level work put into it.

In hindsight though I guess this was to be expected; the trailer showed they were only using a slightly improved version of the Z2 graphics engine for the combat animations as I previously pointed out, so it stands to reason the rest of the game would follow suit. It still doesn't justify the cheap work for the PS3 version, though.

But like I said, I hope those screenshots aren't the final product for the PS3 version.

[Raikoh]

Well, either way I think that the fact is that for a relatively minor part of the visual design, not going 3D with the maps isn't going to hurt the sales (especially since those underwhelmed at the PS3 level are more than likely to just get the Vita version anyway). I think it's one of those "Love it or Hate it" sort of thing, to be honest. Either way, there's still the possibility Tengoku-hen will redo the maps (not sure if it will be more or less likely if Jigoku-hen sells well).

Anyway, browsing around I came across some translations that shed some light on the Tag System.

Spoiler

Tag Battle System

You can organize your units into pairs using the Tag Battle System. Unlike OGS Twin Battle System, you can’t separate or create new tags during missions, however you can switch between the main/sub units. Units which aren’t deployed in a tag formation get 1.5x PP. Motherships are deployed as single units only.

During the map, both tagged units will be displayed on map. When attacking enemy units, you have a choice of either doing a ‘center’ attack or ‘wide’ attack.

Center attack

The center attack concentrates the attacks of your main and sub units onto a single unit in the enemy formation. The hit rate of the main unit will be increased by 20%. It seems the sub unit will used a fixed attack (marked with Assist, and is a P type move). Additionally, there’s a new skill called ‘Covering Attack’ (“援護攻撃”) which can increase the damaged caused.

Wide Attack

In the wide attack, the main and sub will attack the main and sub of the enemy formation respectively. The damage of the sub unit is multiplied by 1.2x in this case.

ALL Attack

A staple of the OGS Twin System as well as the Alpha Squad system. It allows units to attack both units of the enemy formation at once with weapons marked ‘ALL’. When attacking two units instead of a single, the damage is reduced to 75% to each unit.

Tactical Command & Tension Gauge

The Tension Gauge is a new system for each tag unit which unlocks the Tactical Command when the Tension Gauge is full. The tension gauge has two levels and gains a level whenever the main or sub pilot in a tag unit levels up, or when the total kills between the main/sub unit in a tag unit is greater than a multiple of 2.

Once the gauge is full, choosing the Tactical Command gives you four options:

Multi-action – Grants the unit a 2nd turn if they destroy an enemy tag unit (like Continuous Action).

PP Bonus – Next enemy shot down will give double PP.

Z Chip Bonus – Next enemy shot down will give double Z chips.

SP Charge – Restore 15 SP for the main pilots of the main and sub units.

Upon using a Tactical Command, the Tension Gauge resets to 0.

Tactical Combo

By defeating successive enemy units (meaning the entire twin/tag unit) in a row, you get bonuses. Each team defeated increases the damage of all your units by 5%, and money and Z Chips earned by 5%, stacking up to a maximum bonus of 25%. The bonus is lost when the combo chain is broken (you don’t destroy an enemy with the next attack).

The combo gauge can be seen in the lower right corner.

Not sure what 'Z Chips' are (most likely some alternate source of income for a bazaar or something), and the fact that sub units are limited to only one attack is a bit of a shame (though for the sake of balance I can understand why they'd do that - and I'm certain that the Partner System will be used on units I'd bench for the most part anyway). I'm not sure if Continuous Action will still be around, but if it is then the Tactical Combo will provide an interesting reason to not just Continuous Action all day (at least if you play like me and use the second turn of your units to soften up another for Continuous Action Party).

[Shinji103]

Well, either way I think that the fact is that for a relatively minor part of the visual design, not going 3D with the maps isn't going to hurt the sales

I don't see how the maps are in any way a "minor" part of the visual design.....would you get a game that uses bad/cheap work in the graphics? The point of a video game isn't just to have good gameplay but to also look good. Why do you think gamers are always complaining about games with bad/cheap graphics?

(especially since those underwhelmed at the PS3 level are more than likely to just get the Vita version anyway).

And I just said the exact same thing. >.> The cheap work on the graphics will hurt the PS3 version sales, so they might as well have just made it PSV exclusive. Why pay more for a game when you can get it cheaper with the same graphics? Banpresto definitely messed up here. The only major reason the PS3 version will sell well is if the majority of SRW players have a PS3 and not a PSV.