XBOX ONE

[Bryant Molirse]

This might sound like a personal issue, but please hear me out.

I wasn't able to watch the video, because like many things on the internet, you just can't get them to load on dial up. My internet connection tops out at 26.4kbps. That's the connection speed. The download speed is only 2.4kps tops, and will drop as low as 1.9 regularly. I have no other viable options for an internet connection, and I will explain why.

I live in a rural area on Maryland's Eastern Shore. Though I may be an hour, and half from both Washington DC, and Baltimore, and a little over 2 hours from Philadelphia, I might as well be in the middle of Kansas, or Utah, for internet connection availability. The only options I have for high speed internet are 3g wireless broadband, which is severely data capped, or satellite based internet net services, which is severely data capped, has extremely high latancy (1000 ms or more), and goes out fairly regularly with even minimum weather ie light cloud cover, or moderate winds. I have heard a horror story from one of my rpg's regulars about losing his satellite based internet for 2 months before, with no explanation available from the company, and them pointing out service is not guaranteed.

There are a lot of people out there, just like me. Gamers, internet users, all stuck on the other side of the digital divide, and it prevents us from doing stuff that others take for granted.

Why did I need to say all this. Well when we bring up Steam, I can't even connect to it with my connection. No I am not joking, my younger brother wasted a few hundred dollars on computer games to find out he couldn't play any of them, since he couldn't connect to steam or download their required patches. I lost count of how many games he had to give away over the years over similar issues with internet connections required. Not just to steam, but to other companies self controlled servers. However we could at least count on most console games working out of the box with no internet connection required, that is till now.

This used game debate is also total bs. Make the games not install on the hard drive, so the players have to have the disc. Simple right? No, cause that means they can't charge you for something twice. Thats the whole goal in this in the end. It isn't about people swapping discs, in the old days it was called borrowing. Hell what about Gamefly, and renting games? Are we supposed to pay a used game fee every time we rent a game? Everyone over looked that one didn't we?

Make no mistake, this is about profit margins. The gaming industry, like many others has lost revenue over the last 5 years since the economy has gone down. In avoiding that pickle, they point to piracy as one of the reason for it, however piracy on home consoles is not like it is on computers. It is much harder, often involves delicate electrical work, and playing around with settings, many things that can brick of game system in a heartbeat. Not to mention each systems unique discs, and formatting, (lots of luck with that PS3 Blu-ray clone champ!).

So used games, and swapping, give me a break. This is about getting a chunk of the used game market for themselves, and expanding revenue for items they already got paid for, plain and simple. Honestly it's disgusting.

A good comparison for this would be like having to pay a used fee to the MPAA every time you rented a dvd/blu-ray, borrow it from a friend, or bought a used disc at a yard sale or what have you. Why anyone thinks it is okay in any media is beyond me.

[BrentD15]

This might sound like a personal issue, but please hear me out.

I wasn't able to watch the video, because like many things on the internet, you just can't get them to load on dial up. My internet connection tops out at 26.4kbps. That's the connection speed. The download speed is only 2.4kps tops, and will drop as low as 1.9 regularly. I have no other viable options for an internet connection, and I will explain why.

I live in a rural area on Maryland's Eastern Shore. Though I may be an hour, and half from both Washington DC, and Baltimore, and a little over 2 hours from Philadelphia, I might as well be in the middle of Kansas, or Utah, for internet connection availability. The only options I have for high speed internet are 3g wireless broadband, which is severely data capped, or satellite based internet net services, which is severely data capped, has extremely high latancy (1000 ms or more), and goes out fairly regularly with even minimum weather ie light cloud cover, or moderate winds. I have heard a horror story from one of my rpg's regulars about losing his satellite based internet for 2 months before, with no explanation available from the company, and them pointing out service is not guaranteed.

There are a lot of people out there, just like me. Gamers, internet users, all stuck on the other side of the digital divide, and it prevents us from doing stuff that others take for granted.

Why did I need to say all this. Well when we bring up Steam, I can't even connect to it with my connection. No I am not joking, my younger brother wasted a few hundred dollars on computer games to find out he couldn't play any of them, since he couldn't connect to steam or download their required patches. I lost count of how many games he had to give away over the years over similar issues with internet connections required. Not just to steam, but to other companies self controlled servers. However we could at least count on most console games working out of the box with no internet connection required, that is till now.

This used game debate is also total bs. Make the games not install on the hard drive, so the players have to have the disc. Simple right? No, cause that means they can't charge you for something twice. Thats the whole goal in this in the end. It isn't about people swapping discs, in the old days it was called borrowing. Hell what about Gamefly, and renting games? Are we supposed to pay a used game fee every time we rent a game? Everyone over looked that one didn't we?

Make no mistake, this is about profit margins. The gaming industry, like many others has lost revenue over the last 5 years since the economy has gone down. In avoiding that pickle, they point to piracy as one of the reason for it, however piracy on home consoles is not like it is on computers. It is much harder, often involves delicate electrical work, and playing around with settings, many things that can brick of game system in a heartbeat. Not to mention each systems unique discs, and formatting, (lots of luck with that PS3 Blu-ray clone champ!).

So used games, and swapping, give me a break. This is about getting a chunk of the used game market for themselves, and expanding revenue for items they already got paid for, plain and simple. Honestly it's disgusting.

A good comparison for this would be like having to pay a used fee to the MPAA every time you rented a dvd/blu-ray, borrow it from a friend, or bought a used disc at a yard sale or what have you. Why anyone thinks it is okay in any media is beyond me.

I agree with the whole disk-swapping thing being bullshit, because disk-based games require the disk in order to work, and the downloadable version of the game is incompatible with the disk version, so if we were to, let's say, borrow a game and have it install onto our game console/pc, we would still have to buy the disk in order to play it again when we give it back.

It's all about cutting out the middle-man (used game stores like GameStop).

[Dark Duel]

The whole "always online" thing when it comes to consoles is too ambitious to pursue.

It's not a question of ambition, it's a question of Microshaft doing what they do best, and shafting the little guys in an attempt to inflate their profit margins.
Guys like Bryant who don't have a super-fast broadband connection, or guys like me who can't afford to buy games new all the time and rely on places like GameStop to get games within their budget(caveat: I haven't done that in a while because I don't really have much time anymore, and I never replaced my PS2 when it died because I couldn't afford it; I used to share with a roommate who had a PS2 and 3, but that's no longer the case any more either), they get screwed over.
Plus the internet connection at my place, while faster than dial-up, is less than completely reliable, so online gaming is out of the question for me too.
I'll DEFINITELY be giving this one a pass.

[Xenosynth]

Used game opinion:

Spoiler

I do have to say though on the used game issue. Gamestop is the one that brought it on us. The problem is that after a game is sold when a used game is sold, gamestop has multiple times refused to give companies any of the cut of the sale. Gamestop keeps that money all for themselves. So gamestop a lot of the time? Makes more money than the game itself made. That doesn't necessarily seem fair. As TB said in the video, in the case of other forms of entertainment, movies have multiple sources of income beyond just the DVD/Blu-Ray. They have the theatre and the rental market all also giving them money. Games now are starting to cost as much as movies though. And yet games will never nearly make as much as movies. The developer of Heavy Rain brought this up at one point:

" "I can take just one example of Heavy Rain. We basically sold to date approximately two million units, we know from the trophy system that probably more than three million people bought this game and played it. On my small level it's a million people playing my game without giving me one cent. And my calculation is, as Quantic Dream, I lost between 5 and 10 million [Euros] worth of royalties because of second hand gaming." "

Now that's just one case, but I mean, PC games have done this for a VERY long time as well for similar reasons. That's why there are CD Keys and the like. I don't understand why people won't adjust to the used gaming not happening anymore. Consoles are trying to emulate the PC market more and more now. ANd yet I never hear people whine about Steam not buying back their digital purchases. But with consoles I always hear this about used games.

Yes, used games are a convenience and I always bought them too when they were cheaper. However the consoles moving on to non-used is going to just make it the same as PC. Hell, most consoles in the future are probably going to start going all digital anyway, like how PCs mostly are. That would entirely cut out people like gamestop who brought this on us. Yes, it's a bit unfair, but the marketing tactics of Gamestop and other gaming retailers trying to make sure to sell used games because they get ALL the money on them makes the consumers and the developers and publishers suffer. Videogame companies close a lot because of crap like this, even when they make good games, they don't make enough revenue because with a videogame, they are only making money from the first sales. I don't know how true this is also, but I also had heard that the increasing price of games now and on the next gen is because companies want to turn a profit on the games.

Always on opinion:
However, I will say I do agree about the always online BS. Even DRMs like steam allow an offline mode. But the problem is not just for people in the same case as Bryant, but also, how can we trust Microsoft to always keep THEIR servers running? I mean, look at when PSN went down for months. At least then you could play single player games. But what if that happens to the Xbox One? Now you can't even play ANY of your titles. That's ridiculous and that is one of the reasons I am not buying an Xbox One.

[BrentD15]

Used game opinion:

Spoiler

GameStop pockets the money from used games without giving the game publishers/developers their cut.

Always on opinion:
However, I will say I do agree about the always online BS. Even DRMs like steam allow an offline mode. But the problem is not just for people in the same case as Bryant, but also, how can we trust Microsoft to always keep THEIR servers running? I mean, look at when PSN went down for months. At least then you could play single player games. But what if that happens to the Xbox One? Now you can't even play ANY of your titles. That's ridiculous and that is one of the reasons I am not buying an Xbox One.

About your used game opinion, I see how that's unfair to the companies that make the games, and perhaps GameStop should give some companies their cut.
But then, what about the companies who close down, like Pandemic and THQ? To whom will those cuts go?

And about your Always On opinion, I agree that if their servers aren't going to be always reliable, then they shouldn't even pursue such a goal for an "always on" game console.

The idea may not be too ambitious, but it might be too premature.

[Xenosynth]

Well, that's the thing, gamestop and other gaming stores have a sort of powergrip on the companies. They've refused companies any cut of the used game sales, which... I mean, what can the company do? Gamestop is one of the highest video game sellers, they can't just say 'we won't give you our game' because gamestop will just laugh at them and say 'good luck.'

[Strike Zero]

However the consoles moving on to non-used is going to just make it the same as PC.

Except for how it, you know, won't. The reason why you never hear people raising a fuss about buyback on Steam is because Steam makes up for it by constantly having sales and marking down their products at exceedingly low prices, which they do in order to stay competitive with other digital distributors like GOG. Microsoft will never do anything of the sort. I mean, why would they when they've made it oh-so-abundantly clear that what they're most concerned about is preserving their profit margins?

I also don't buy the argument that by eliminating used games, developers will see huge spikes in their returns from all of those used-game consumers whose aim was to save money, magically realizing the error of their ways and deciding that they will pay full price for each and every piece of software they bring into their house. Uh, no, they're simply going to stop buying games.

Maybe you'll get the customers who won't mind being deprived of the option to purchase games at a cheaper price, but I can guarantee that there will be many who won't see things that way. And if the $75.00 game price tag I heard about from GameStop turns out to be true, Microsoft and all of those poor game developers can take their Xbox One and shove it up their ass, because I won't be having any part of it.

[Xenosynth]

You do have a point there about Microsoft. Since Microsoft will be the only distributor on the Xbox One, there won't be any competition so you'll have to pay their prices in order to work with it. Steam on the other hand does have sales, yes, and same with GOG and their constant low prices. But what about the pre-Steam market? PC Games have used CD key systems since the 90s! Look at Diablo II, which used CD keys, and how many copies that sold. That was a game that'd be impossible to sell used as the CD keys can only be used once. Iono, again, I'm just used to not getting used games since I haven't bought console games in forever.

Still though, I was simply pointing out the reasoning behind the companies supporting this idea. If gamestop wasn't so fervent with trying to sell used and making sure THEY make all the profit from the games, we probably wouldn't have this problem, nor would we have them if maybe they gave even a slight cut from used game sales. Again, the problem is, games are becoming as expensive as movies to develop yet make WAY less of a profit since the only way the game can make profit is the game selling new, or DLC (which also has its own budget), whereas movies as I said have many sources of income from the opening week to DVDs/Blu-Rays and Netflix and so on.

I honestly don't think people would just stop buying games. They might wait for a price drop, but I really don't think people are just going to stop. And no offense but most developers aren't deserving of that last comment of yours. Besides, developers get screwed already since on the console market you need to go through publishers like EA and whatnot who screw the devs just as much.

But yeah, in the end, yes, Microsoft is greedy and I refuse to buy the new console for many reasons. But I'm just saying I do think that the console market will start to phase out used games as the budget for creating games increases, and in that respect, I can respect a developer trying to break even with the profit.

Another problem is the focus on so many companies trying to go the AAA route with their titles, and the inflation of spending on the development of games. I really think that developers need to focus less on cinematic and theatrical elements and focus more on gameplay to try to lower the prices. For whatever reason the companies feel that they need to market the game as a cinematic experience over gameplay now which I think has caused the inflated budget for games in the modern time. Sometimes this does backfire, look at Square Enix and FFXIII, but other times people will just eat up games that have rather basic gameplay that just happen to have online systems and super cinematic graphics and whatnot.

Edit: One other thing with that price tag: I've never noticed used games being more than 15 dollars under that, which isn't really that much money. It's not like used games are going to be half off or something, and as far as I've bought them, they've never been that low. People are acting like 60 dollar MSRP games go down to like 40 bucks when used but usually I never even see them go that low.

Edit Edit; Also, I will admit I probably have a bit of a bias, given that me and a few friends have attempted game design through even simple engines, and I learned development is hard and a pain, and honestly I feel like devs get screwed a bit by everyone in all situations, the publishers, the console creators, and videogame stores (though the last one tries to screw everyone all for themselves). I don't see how giving money to Microsoft's money grubbing asses is any different from giving the full of all the money for a game to Gamestop's money grubbing asses. To me they are both nothing but greedy asshats. How does giving money to a corporation like gamestop who did NO work but distributing the game make any more sense than giving the money to people who actually did work?

I just see it as like... gamestop is basically profiting off of something that they aren't doing any work on, multiple times for that matter. If a used game changes hands 2-3 times GAMESTOP made more than the developer! The people who MADE the game (Not that they get all the money anyway, publishers get a cut too). Yet why does no one ever stop and go 'Hey, gamestop, maybe you should stop being greedy bastards?' They don't. They think gamestop is a little guy when honestly I am sure they have a LOT of money off of this business practice.

[BrentD15]

How does giving money to a corporation like gamestop who did NO work but distributing the game make any more sense than giving the money to people who actually did work?

I'm pretty sure GameStop has to buy copies of those games in order to sell them.
Or do they actually get the games free of charge and sell them, which is a financially-stupid idea?

[Xenosynth]

How does giving money to a corporation like gamestop who did NO work but distributing the game make any more sense than giving the money to people who actually did work?

I'm pretty sure GameStop has to buy copies of those games in order to sell them.
Or do they actually get the games free of charge and sell them, which is a financially-stupid idea?

Well, true, but how much do they spend ON the game? They still will always make more in the end off of used games and whatnot (And they always push to sell new over used). I can't imagine they spend dollars per game. And again, they probably can negotiate to lower how much they pay for a game, because Gamestops advertising and other promotions have such a force that really, game companies can't pass up on them. And again, as far as my experience with console games? Besides Wal-Mart and other department stores having games, most people buy their games from gaming stores. And I don't think any developer can afford to release a game without the help of publishers and someone to sell it, and with consoles in the USA, that's primarily gamestop.

Theoretically, let's say it costs 40 dollars for them to buy a game, and they sell it for 60 on day 1 (There's been some rumored cases of even 30 for some 360 games though I don't know how valid that is). Then they make a 20 dollar profit. Then someone is dissatisfied with the game a few months later, and the game is retailing for only 40 dollars. They give him 10-15 dollars for the game, then sell the used for 35. They end up making all that money right back for themselves in their pocket. And used games sell very well, and they make sure they do. And they don't give very much back to the customer who bought the game. I've had some games that I've returned that I had bought for 40 dollars and were like 30 bucks MSRP that I only would get like 3-10 dollars for. And then they sell them for 22 dollars, so they end up making more than enough back. And again, used games sell, so I am sure that cases like this would happen quite a few times over.

[Bryant Molirse]

I must have jynxed myself yesterday talking about net stuff. My connection went down from 9:30 am est yesterday till sometime after 11pm last night. Well now it's back, and lets see.

As much as I dislike Gamestop for many reasons, I will point out that their business model is pretty much that of a pawn shop. They are in it for the profit, but to make a profit, they have to hold games that might never sell again. If they don't want to pay people money for something they were already paid for, that their business, and actually good for us. Cause other wise the used games would get a mark up to get the purchasers to pay that fee for Gamestop.

As for the developers complaining they don't get a slice of the pie, they were already paid for the discs in circulation. Let's get it straight, they put in time, and money to develop a game, then only printed X amount of discs. Since this is a console, and not a computer, where the discs have to be used every time you play the game, that means no one is generating unpaid for copies. This is a farce, and honestly if they want to complain about how much money they are not making versus how much it costs them to create the games, maybe they should work on controlling their production costs, and over runs, instead of acting like this is some new problem. People have been selling used games to each other since the days of the Atari 2600, almost 30 years ago. It was never a problem before. Hell I used to sell, and trade used Nintendo games with my lunch money when I was in elementary school, back when the games were $80 a piece new, as required by Nintendo.

This whole thing, like I said before, is an imaginary problem. This is all about a decreasing revenue stream, and trying to find ways they can still collect, even though the problem is unemployment is heavy through there core demographic. And those who are employed, have had their incomes shrink, so they can't spend the money on games they once did. Or put simply, it's greed.

As to the diablo 2 remarks, that's pc gaming which is a whole nother can of worms, where piracy is ripe, but my ideas on that are too long to post in this thread without it becoming a total derailer.

[Xenosynth]

To me, even though the discs in circulation are already paid for, that's the thing. If there is a decent enough stream of used copies of a game going in and out... then they don't have to order new copies at all. Many publishers have told about that too. And the reason it was never a problem before is that GAMES DIDN'T COST AS MUCH back then! Sure, some companies did ridiculous budgets (FFVII was over 200 million when accounting for inflation), but now even basic titles for consoles have many other departments and whatnot that need to be paid for, beyond just licensing things. It's not like you can control the budget as well anymore.

I think that overall, this is an issue we aren't going to really find a consensus with. We have different views from different experiences, and I don't think you are wrong, but I just disagree with your particular reasoning. Maybe it's because I'm not doing that bad monetarily, but I really just don't understand why this small difference in price matters. Used vs New prices are not nearly that different. Even if it was a discount from 60 dollars to 40 dollars for a game, 20 dollars isn't a lot of money for me.

Mainly, my views come from quite a few aricles I've read before and just general talking about the issue. This is talking about what I mean when it comes to the circulation of games and why the publishers, and by extension the devs, lose out from it.

And I agree with the next that used games can account for the surge in online multiplayer too. If you think about it, it makes sense. If friends wanna play together, they can't use the same copy to do that anymore. It encourages sales. Why do you think so many games also shoehorn in multiplayer now? Here's an article with several points on that issue.

In the case of piracy, Lionhead even went on to state how used console games can be more damaging than piracy on PC games, as evident with Fable 3, article is here.

And yes, these people also probably have some bias being the ones that serve to make money from this. But nonetheless, I don't understand why people are this militant about used games, or the lack thereof, especially on the Xbox One. Then agian, maybe this whole industry for consoles has gotten screwed over. Between metacritic being a reliable source for what to pay their teams now, to publishers forcing devs to play it safe to make sure they sell a lot instead of innovating to make up for lost budgets, and DLC, instead of being used to expand a game properly and used effectively, being used in ways to just milk out money, through various forms, including microtransactions and other silly things. Console games have changed quite a bit from even the PS2 era, and it frankly, sucks in my opinion. There are so many things wrong with the industry right now that maybe, to me, used games don't really matter. Games that should be selling a decent amount don't, and then teams get destroyed for it, and then games that are literally reskins of the previous one in the series sell like hotcakes and result in emulation of that. There's a lack of innovation now and sorry but I am tangenting so I'll stop after this.

There are many other reasons to dislike the Xbox One besides used games. Like I said, if some group decides to attack the Xbox Live servers like what happened with PSN, all games are down and unplayable. That's a legitimate concern. And among other things, the always on webcam that needs to be connected to your system. Not to sound paranoid but that feels like big brother stuff right there. That stuff scares me. Not to mention, while my internet speed is fine, the router I use is crap so non-wired connections are really iffy. ANd if I am in the middle of the game and suddenly 'Server is unavailable' comes up and disconnects me, I am going to be pissed. Or would be pissed but really I have no reason to buy an Xbox One, so I won't.

[Outlaw]

Everything You Always Wanted to Know About XBox One* (*But Were Afraid to Ask) source: Kotaku

Here's a recap:

The console must connect to the internet once every 24 hours in order for you to play games. For many people, from military personnel to students, that's an inconvenience, maybe even an impossibility. Never mind what happens to everybody's console if Microsoft's servers ever come down.

The Xbox One will allow the sale of used games, at "participating retailers", but only if the publisher allows it. Publishers being the very people opposed most fiercely to used video game sales.

There are restrictions on how you can "give" and "loan" your games away. What's more, lending won't be available at launch, with Microsoft still "exploring the possibilities with our partners".


Even some of the "good" news is really just "not as bad news". Or "an avoidance of bad news".

Responding to fears over privacy issues surrounding the "always plugged-in" Kinect, Microsoft says you can turn the Kinect off.


Leaving the sole piece of "oh, OK, that's pretty cool news" to be:

You can have up to ten people in your Xbox One "family", and can share all your content among them, regardless of which console they're using.

[BrentD15]

Well, at least we'll be able to turn it off.
But then again, does it have to be on at least once a day (like the whole internet connectivity thing), or can it be off indefinitely as long as it's installed.

[tHeWasTeDYouTh]

Xbox go home

[ydawg314]

uh... Titan Fall anyone?
http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/iwzt ... r--stream-

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

BOOM! Sony just slapped Microsoft down... hard.

[Destiny_Gundam]

Yeah, kinda hard to imagine anyone picking the Xbox One over the PS4 unless they are diehard Microsoft fanboys.

[Toxicity]

uh... Titan Fall anyone?
http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/iwzt ... r--stream-

I try to be somewhat optimistic whenever new consoles are announced, since there's generally a good 'Mech game somewhere amongst the release titles....

Called it. Looks pretty damned cool, and it'll be coming to the PC too. My only reservation is that it is being published by EA.

[tHeWasTeDYouTh]

I have to say that Titanfall looks amazing!!! Killer Instict looks great and I hope Double Helix does not ruin it(they make pretty bad games)

PS4 is looking very good and I just saw Dorito Pope give Reggie(Nintendo) and interview and it was awesome

Reggie laughs and is like NO and then he tell him to PLAY THE GAMES!! He was getting pissed

part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIzrdxAlVSQ

5:26

"Hahaha.

No."


part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvqwMnyhhn4

enjoy