Gundam: What's Official?

[DeltasTaii]

Astray in general, if not its individual series components is still likely a "whitest of greys", even if the original MBF-P series is probably official.

Even the later Gundams like Dreadnought, Hyperion, and especially Regenerate push it (also Out Frame, Testament, and the Deltas, but eh), let's not forget the ridiculous custom GINNs, 150m Gerbera Straight, BuCUE being used in space, George Glenn...

SEED doesn't really suffer from the same troubles as UC anyways though, since its only had a couple games already based off of the Sunrise involved MSV and Astray material (except maybe the Stargazer manga-obviously the SEED and DESTINY manga adaptions are instantly ignored).
It's the big pile of Bandai made UC original MS, games, and 3rd party manga that are what's being tackled here. Things like Matsunaga's Jaeger being BS, or EDC not being an official lead-up and run through Zeta.

[toysdream]

I take it the already extant animated Crossbone Gundam cameo in G doesn't count?

The Crossbone Gundam showed up in G Gundam? I don't know how I managed to miss that one! But yeah, this would suggest that a bunch of other Gundams--including the original RX-78--also exist in G Gundam. And, as Mark064 points out, this means that Tetsujin 28 fought in the One Year War and the Walker Galliar is housed in Hayato's space museum.

As for Gundam Seed Astray, it's unclear to me whether the promotional films and the mobile suit cameos in the opening and ending credits count as "filmed works" for Sunrise's purposes, but the guest appearance of the Re-HOME in the final episodes of Gundam Seed seems like an unambiguous statement that the original Astray story has official status. Like DeltasTaii says, the Seed situation seems pretty straightfoward compared to the swamp of Universal Century side stories.

-- Mark

[Koshernova]

Well, considering how one of the biggest plot 'oversights' is covered in the first Astray story, it's better if they're considered official, really.

I was going to ask, however, has there been any discussion on supplemental print materials, ie the 0079 novelisations roman albums and the like? I ask because, basically, a lot of the backstory of the beginning of the U.C. is never covered in the animation. Hell, when one compares it, C.E. has better coverage of its early years than U.C., at least in filmed form.

I suppose with MS Igloo a part of this is covered in a bit more depth (namely, the Battle of Loum and Operation British). But still, crucial events of the One-Year War were never animated nor referred to in film: the One-Week Battle, Revil's kidnapping and subsequent "Zeon is Exhausted!" speech, etcetera. As we all know, a good deal of the backstory we consider 'official' is basically an adaptation of what Tomino wrote in the original novel, changing it to suit the animated works (since the novel ends up being quite different from the anime). The question being, of course, how 'official' is this for Sunrise?

I personally don't think cameos are meant to have too much deep meaning in terms of continuity. The cameo of endless Gundams as well as Zambot 3 in the final battle of G Gundam are intended as an homage. In a show populated by mostly Gundams, which celebrated the 15th year of the franchise with a free-for-all that took liberties with its own origins as a tribute/anniversary show. Of course, we could assume they are completely different robots with different technologies, if we want an in-universe explanation. But I don't think there's much use in delving too much into it, to be frank.

[toysdream]

I was going to ask, however, has there been any discussion on supplemental print materials, ie the 0079 novelisations roman albums and the like? I ask because, basically, a lot of the backstory of the beginning of the U.C. is never covered in the animation.

No kidding! I forget exactly where I saw this, because I've been plowing through so many of these interviews and whatnot over the last few days, but somewhere along the way it was pointed out that the ending date of the One Year War--originally mentioned by Tomino in a magazine interview--wasn't officially confirmed until it appeared onscreen in Gundam 0083. The earlier events, of course, are even more sketchily covered from an "official" standpoint.

Most of the interviews and features I've been reading date from 2000-2001, when Gundam Officials was published and the video games were getting more aggressive about filling in the story gaps. In all these articles, it's stated very clearly that Gihren's Greed cut scenes and whatnot aren't official works, no matter how desperately the fans want to see these events onscreen. I haven't found anything addressing more recent works like Gundam Evolve and MS Igloo, though.

In the meantime, Gundam Century and Tomino's novels, which show how the creators and scriptwriters envisioned the Universal Century backstory, seem to have filled the gaps. A lot of references to Tomino's novels were inserted into the Gundam III movie compilation, as if to reassure viewers that they could rely on the novels as a reference source. And the U.C. Almanac, a Sunrise-maintained reference guide that was formerly hosted on the NiftyServe online service, used print publications and other secondary sources to fill in some of the backstory gaps even though its contents were otherwise limited to Sunrise-produced "official" works.

In a nutshell, my impression is that Tomino's novels, Gundam Century, and other major publications supply a lot of the missing backstory even though they're technically in the "gray" category at best. If the events they describe were ever officially animated, the filmed versions would override the written ones. I just wish I knew whether that's supposed to apply to MS Igloo's batty version of the Battle of Loum.


EDIT: Speaking of MS Igloo and the question of official status, one example of Japanese fans trying to apply these rules is the Japanese Wikipedia entry on Universal Century Defense Contractors. The Wiki contributors conclude that Zeonic and Zimmad, which were first mentioned in Gundam Century, only became official when they were referenced in the dialogue of MS Igloo episode 3. (Which, I suppose, implies that MS Igloo does count as a "filmed work" with the magical power to make things official.)

Further down the page, we get the strange case of Zwinemn. This company was invented by a Japanese fan site, which credited it with creating the Acguy. That's as unofficial as you can get, but the company was subsequently mentioned in the book "Anaheim Journal," whose cover touts it as an "official setting collection" planned and supervised by Sunrise, so maybe Zwinemn is now official after all. But wait! According to Sunrise's own rules, only filmed works are official, so even if Sunrise creates a book of "official setting" material, does it actually count? The Wikipedia article ponders this briefly and then points out that Zwinemn isn't mentioned in the manuals of the Acguy model kits that have since been released, so perhaps the answer is no.

Clearly, then, this stuff is just as confusing for Japanese fans. Judging from this example, they seem to have concluded that MS Igloo is an official filmed work, and that published references aren't official even if Sunrise says they are.

-- Mark

[NewtypeS3]

The Crossbone Gundam showed up in G Gundam? I don't know how I managed to miss that one! But yeah, this would suggest that a bunch of other Gundams--including the original RX-78--also exist in G Gundam. And, as Mark064 points out, this means that Tetsujin 28 fought in the One Year War and the Walker Galliar is housed in Hayato's space museum.

Oh, yeah, the Crossbone is there in one form or another. It's actually on the missile right next to the RX-78-2 as they show the random cameo suits flying up into space.
Wait... the Tetsujin 28 was in MSG? Was this in TV or Movie format?

Like DeltasTaii says, the Seed situation seems pretty straightfoward compared to the swamp of Universal Century side stories.

And I'm quite honestly grateful for that, being that I'm one of the opinion that Astray is probably the best thing to come from CE.
Regardless, this is a very fun topic to read - I'm learning more things in this topic alone than all my lurking before on this board.

[Pegasus]

I just wish I knew whether that's supposed to apply to MS Igloo's batty version of the Battle of Loum.

To be honest trying to work out stuff like that is half the fun. I'm pretty confident that if we ever get an "official" answer we'll all be disappointed. I have my own interpretation of the One Year War with my own categories of what I consider "official". Since it's all so blastedly muddled a bit of pic and mix is in order methinks.

[Mark064]

Tetsujin as well as a few other super robots appear in the series I know for certain but I'm not sure about the movie versions, I've never gone and checked personally. They are hidden in a crowd of GMs and Balls in the attacks of Solomon and A Baoa Qu (the same scene was reused in both episode 35 and 42). Of course that's all complicated to look for but I have an image which should help. For where they are for those unable to see Tetsujin is in the top middle it's gray and has a GM shield. Raideen is in the bottom left it's blue, red, whie and yellow also equipped with a GM shield. The last one I'm not 100% sure but as best as I can tell it is Danguard Ace it's on the right in the cluster of GMs it's red, black and white again with a GM shield. I think there are more then this too because from what I remember there was a great image of this a while ago and I swear it had more then 3.

As for Crossbone Gundam here is an image.

But wait there's more! Walker Galliar from episode 13 of Zeta Gundam. The right one on the right is Walker Gallia though it is slightly altered. This is what it looks like in the anime. There is another unknown besides this which may also be a Walker Machine from Xabungle but my memory is kinda blury. But what's actually interesting about this is they actually try to justify this. For example in MS Encyclopedia 2003 they are both there labeled as "Nameless Mobile Suits", the art included makes it look more like Walker Galliar like including it's feet missing from the anime shot. The defenition describes them as early EF MS attempts. It's last line is something vauge like "The unit on the right has been seen somewhere else..." The Zeta Rapport deluxe called it a "Mysterious psudeo-Walker Machine".

[Koshernova]

Clearly, then, this stuff is just as confusing for Japanese fans. Judging from this example, they seem to have concluded that MS Igloo is an official filmed work, and that published references aren't official even if Sunrise says they are.

-- Mark

Dammit, it does get complex... I thought Igloo qualified automatically, as it IS a filmed work? And if one would argue it is not animated, well, it's not cel-animated. It is computer animated. So yes, I don't see how it can not be "filmed work".

Anyway.

It's interesting that the on-screen rule is actually one used by both Star Wars and Star Trek, and has been for years. Basically both have the exact same policy: if it's filmed, it's canon/official, with exceptions of course (the Star Wars Christmas Special, Star Trek V, but those were put out of canon outright by the creators...). However, Star Wars in particular has seen a huge amount of continuity resets due to the appearance of the prequel films, with the rather large expanded universe having to adapt to that. Mind you, in the case of Star Wars, I don't feel it's a big deal, since almost none of the backstory is necessary for the context of the tale. With UC Gundam, it becomes important to understand the origin of the UC universe, which has been covered very, very briefly in filmed works. Star Trek saw similar problems when Enterprise aired, only worse because Enterprise overrode continuity rather drastically (continuity not from side stories or novels but from official printed materials that were declared as canon until the series was released).

Personally, I'd consider the intentions of the original creators of the continuity to be more valid than that of the studio that owns the franchise. So, whatever Tomino may have said about the background of the UC overrides, in my eyes, anything Sunrise animates thereafter. I am aware this doesn't make it 'official', but it's up to everyone to make up their own mind, as others have already said

[bluemax151]

Further down the page, we get the strange case of Zwinemn. This company was invented by a Japanese fan site, which credited it with creating the Acguy. That's as unofficial as you can get, but the company was subsequently mentioned in the book "Anaheim Journal," whose cover touts it as an "official setting collection" planned and supervised by Sunrise, so maybe Zwinemn is now official after all. But wait! According to Sunrise's own rules, only filmed works are official, so even if Sunrise creates a book of "official setting" material, does it actually count? The Wikipedia article ponders this briefly and then points out that Zwinemn isn't mentioned in the manuals of the Acguy model kits that have since been released, so perhaps the answer is no.

-- Mark

So this begs the question.. Can Sunrise write an Ultimate "Official" Gundam UC Bible under their Harmony of Gundamness only to contradict it sometime later?

Maybe if they make a video collection chronicling the events of UC Gundam it would be more/ultimately official because it's animated

[Koshernova]

bluemax, your post made me think of something, and thus I chuckled. I'll share, because I'm nice:

"Can Sunrise make a Gundam SO official even they themselves cannot override it?"

I call it the Sunrise Omniscience Paradox.

[Annon Kaies Zi]

Personally, I'd consider the intentions of the original creators of the continuity to be more valid than that of the studio that owns the franchise. So, whatever Tomino may have said about the background of the UC overrides, in my eyes, anything Sunrise animates thereafter. I am aware this doesn't make it 'official', but it's up to everyone to make up their own mind, as others have already said

Well, then you have to pick-and-choose what you want to be Tomino canon. Are the MSG Novel canon? Because, if they are, throw out Zeta and Char's Counteratttack. Would the Zeta Gundam series ending be canon, or the movie ending? Tomino contradicts himself also. So even Tomino's Universal Century isn't clear. It may be more clear then Sunrise's, as there's less things to consider, but still just as unknown.

[toysdream]

Dammit, it does get complex... I thought Igloo qualified automatically, as it IS a filmed work?

That seems pretty logical, and as I look at the Japanese sites and publications I get the impression it's seen that way in Japan too. Oddly, it seems to have taken a while for them to arrive at this conclusion. The Sunrise-supervised Gundam Fact File series only began covering CG works halfway through, but it now lists MS Igloo, Gundam The Ride, Green Divers, and Gundam Evolve alongside the animated works. (But not G-Saviour, however.)

As for the Star Wars and Star Trek examples, there are a lot of similarities in how these franchises handle continuity questions, but a few differences too. Star Wars, in particular, remains tightly under George Lucas's personal control, and official materials seem to radiate out from the creator rather than inward from the fan community (as they did with Star Trek and Gundam).

Personally, I'd consider the intentions of the original creators of the continuity to be more valid than that of the studio that owns the franchise.

As I suggested above, this might be the point where one would distinguish between "official" and "canon." The latter term, which implies authentic (divine) inspiration, might be better suited for those who place Tomino's works above the whims of Sunrise management. In a lot of other fandoms, the creator remains in control of the franchise and so both terms amount to the same thing. But if you imagine a scenario where George Lucas or J.K Rowling or Joss Whedon is running around writing "unofficial" novels and comics, while the corporation that holds the rights is making its own sequels without their involvement, you'd have a good approximation of the Gundam situation.

Well, then you have to pick-and-choose what you want to be Tomino canon. Are the MSG Novel canon? Because, if they are, throw out Zeta and Char's Counteratttack. Would the Zeta Gundam series ending be canon, or the movie ending? Tomino contradicts himself also.

And, for that matter, the First Gundam movies and TV series contradict each other as well. So both the Sunrise official works, and Tomino's own works, are something of a multiple-choice scenario. That's been the case for 25 years, so we may as well get used to it.

So this begs the question.. Can Sunrise write an Ultimate "Official" Gundam UC Bible under their Harmony of Gundamness only to contradict it sometime later?

Going by these rules, published works aren't "official" by definition, even if Sunrise slaps that word on the cover. So anything in the filmed works would automatically override anything in print.

Maybe if they make a video collection chronicling the events of UC Gundam it would be more/ultimately official because it's animated

Yep, I guess it would! MS Igloo already did a little bit of that in its early episodes, but a full-fledged "U.C. History" retrospective would be the only way to officialize a lot of this backstory.

-- Mark

[DeltasTaii]

I'm sure Bandai/Sunrise is falling over itself to animate a dry, history rather than character or plot driven, MS-challenged collection of UC history. "Its got slightly more redesigned Zakus than last time! Also, 50% more Acguy than 08th!"

They just need to maybe randomly start inserting pieces of history into the background of stuff or something Having high-school age protagonists has to count for something.

[Skippy438]

We've been covering story elements and MS that are official, but what about spellings/pronunciations? I assume this applies more to English translations than the original Japanese, but in watching the various series that have been translated or dubbed over the years things seem to change. We've got Shar/Char, Kalaba/Karaba, etc. One in particular that has always bugged me is the pronunciation of Jaburo. You hear "Jah-Brow" and "Ja-boo-ro" in the same episode!

[toysdream]

We've been covering story elements and MS that are official, but what about spellings/pronunciations?

That seems like a separate issue, really; it has nothing to do with story content, and since name spellings seldom appear in the animation, Sunrise's "filmed works are official" ruling doesn't apply.

That said, there's not really as much mystery here as one might expect. The Japanese language is completely phonetic, so character and mobile suit names are always pronounced the same way in the animation. Sunrise has also been pretty consistent about the English spellings it prefers, and you'll usually see the same spellings used in all the Japanese publications. The 2006 editions of the MS Encyclopedia and Character Encyclopedia list the Sunrise-preferred English spellings for all the major characters, mobile suits, and series titles, and consistency buffs might find them worth buying for that reason alone.

Ironically, these Sunrise-approved spellings don't always match what we see in the animation. For example, the "Jabrow" spelling appears onscreen in Gundam 0083, so the folks who did the English translations of Gundam 0080 and 0083 used that spelling rather than Sunrise's preferred "Jaburo." By Sunrise's own rules, one might expect that "Jabrow" would be more "official," but I guess the English spellings shown onscreen have historically been so random that they're an exception to the rule.


Meanwhile, I'll concede DeltasTaii's point that nobody would want to produce (or watch) a U.C. history lesson in filmed form. I guess we'll have to settle for whatever tidbits and cameos they can squeeze into the doubtless upcoming "MS Yurt."

-- Mark

[Xenogil]

Incidentally, the term "canon" is probably unhelpful here. The term has no Japanese equivalent, and the Japanese staff generally talk about what's "official" instead.

-- Mark

That's true. I asked Tomino what he considered "canon" when it comes to Gundam, and the translator had no clue what the term meant.

Now, I'm paraphrasing here, but Tomino told me that Gundam is similar to properties like Star Trek or Batman (used these as specific examples) stating that there are so many people that work on all of these different series, so it can be difficult to determine what exactly is "canon". But he also stated that if he wasn't involved in the production of a Gundam series, it's not canon in his eyes, which is a bit different from the way Sunrise views it. And seeing as how he created the series, I view it that his opinion of what's canonical takes precedence over what Sunrise sees as official.
So I don't count 08th MS, 0080, 0083, Igloo, etc. as canonical with the UC timeline. His novels I put in the gray because of how they overlap with filmed works, but Crossbone I consider canon.

[Aegis]

And the way I see this, Tomino may have been the one who conceived of Gundam, but it's Sunrise that has the final word. Thus, you can say what you will about Tomino's views, but at the end of the day, Sunrise is the one who makes the final call, and as far as what's official is concerned, it's their word we'd follow.

[Chris]

And the way I see this, Tomino may have been the one who conceived of Gundam, but it's Sunrise that has the final word. Thus, you can say what you will about Tomino's views, but at the end of the day, Sunrise is the one who makes the final call, and as far as what's official is concerned, it's their word we'd follow.

Agreed. Even though Tomino created the grand cash cow for Sunrise, he has no rights to the franchise. As he's pointed out frequently in interviews, he's just a freelance director, not even a Sunrise employee, so that gives him even less say about what's "official." Besides, he doesn't strike me as the type who loses sleep over what's official or not. Also, if he doesn't consider series he didn't work on official, why did he include mobile suits from 0083, Sentinel and Advance of Zeta in his Zeta trilogy? To me, that looks like some sort of acknowledgment of their existence.

[Mark064]

I think stuff like 0083, Sentinel and AoZ in the Zeta trilogy isn't Tomino's doing but rather Sunrise. The same I imagine with the MSV suits that appeared in Zeta series. Also the SEED-MSV stuff in SEED and Destiny chances are they were not Fukuda's own idea but someone at Sunrise. These all sounds like ideas of the master minds at Sunrise's ideas and not the directors. I can't imagine Tomino looking through a bunch of 0083, Sentinel and AoZ stuff and deciding to put them in the trilogy and same with Fukuda and SEED-MSV.

[Koshernova]

God, I have a question so tiny yet somewhat significant I am not entirely sure whether it'll be even within remit or not, but here it goes.

What about Mobile Suit tech development in the UC? I dare say some of it was accidental rather than planned, in the sense that certain MS's features and weapons were only later retconned into being part of any particular technology.

The only one I can think of, however, is the Gouf. We've all seen the animated Gouf wield what can only be described as a Beam Sword. Later works have retconned that to be a Heat Sword, and the Gouf Custom indeed wields one of those, albeit a different model.

However, and here's where it becomes interesting... the "animation > all" rule means that we ought to take the Gouf's apocryphal Beam Sword as official over the later retcons (which did not come from animated sources). Indeed, we have not seen an animated Gouf afterwards, the Gouf Custom not counting as it is a different, more advanced model. Mangas have shown us regular Goufs with Heat Swords, but those are not official.

This wouldn't be that much of an issue if it wasn't the case that the evolution of miniaturised beam technology is an important plot point regarding the abilities of Mobile Suits, and the fact that the Gelgoog is the first Zeon MS to fully utilise that technology is also rather crucial. All of this of course contributes in making the RX-78 more powerful.

So the issue stands... did Zeon invent portable beam weaponry for its MS much earlier than the retcon indicates?