Gundam: What's Official?

[NewtypeS3]

Well, there's also the fact that the 'Beam Naginata' on the Gelgoog... wasn't beam based when Char's Gelgoog first showed up. It was somehow a solid blade that had no problem interacting with the Gundam's beam saber.
It was only later that it became a beam saber, for Char and Amuro's final fight involving Lalah in the area.

I think there were a few other odd moments as well - but no others are coming to mind.

[fullupneon]

What aboot all those times where the Zaku's heat hawk didn't look like a heat hawk at all and yet it was still able to perry with the Gundam's beam saber(eg episode 4 when Char's heat hawk perryd with the Gundam's beam saber)?

Oh and what aboot those times where the Guncannon and Guntank's cannons and what not looked like friggin beam cannons?

I don't think that Ecole Du Ciel is official because Asuna piloted a Gundam MK II when, at least I think, only three Gundam MK IIs were made.

[Skippy438]

I'll add another question while we're talking about retcon issues. In various OVAs and series (0080 specifically) were the grunt mobile suits always intended to be new models? To me it's always looked like a new artist's take on an old design. But I've only seen them listed as the GM Kai, Zaku II Kai, Gelgoog J, etc. Have they always been considered separate model variants/refits?


I also want to add that this is the greatest forum post in the history of the internet.

[mcred23]

I'll add another question while we're talking about retcon issues. In various OVAs and series (0080 specifically) were the grunt mobile suits always intended to be new models?

Most 0080's grunt MS were originally intended to be updated versions of the older designs, which is why the infamous 'MS Era' book (Which I believe was released around the same time as 0080) only has 0080 or 0080-like designs for it's MS and MA. However, they've long since been changed into new models.

[Mark064]

While that is true that the designs are really just the old designs the MS Era books features Izubuchi's work only. Even the Gundam and such you see are Izubuchi's Gundam.

[Annon Kaies Zi]

While that is true that the designs are really just the old designs the MS Era books features Izubuchi's work only. Even the Gundam and such you see are Izubuchi's Gundam.

Do you have any images of Izubuchi's RX-78-2, or any of his other redesigns? Would be interesting to see.

[fullupneon]

Wait a minute! If the mangas aren't official, then how come some of the designs appear in later Tomino-directed series such as Zeta and Double Zeta? Example being the Agguguy in ZZ ( unless of course that MS is only a MSV suit and doesn't even appear in any manga.)

Correct me if I'm wrong but another thing is that on other forums most people seem to say that only the SEED movies are official in the Cosmic Era and that the Tele series has no relevance. Their reasons being that Mu's helmet was not shown. But I still can't see how the movies can be more official and Canon than the Tele series.

[Chris]

Wait a minute! If the mangas aren't official, then how come some of the designs appear in later Tomino-directed series such as Zeta and Double Zeta? Example being the Agguguy in ZZ ( unless of course that MS is only a MSV suit and doesn't even appear in any manga.)

That's already been mentioned at the start of this thread. Things are of questionable status until they appear in an animated series. The Agguguy, being part of MSV, is certainly "more" official by comparison to stuff in manga. I don't really recall any cases of manga designs appearing in an animated series, aside from ASTRAY.

Correct me if I'm wrong but another thing is that on other forums most people seem to say that only the SEED movies are official in the Cosmic Era and that the Tele series has no relevance. Their reasons being that Mu's helmet was not shown. But I still can't see how the movies can be more official and Canon than the Tele series.

I wouldn't discount the TV series over something as stupid as Mu's helmet. Given Fukuda's track record, he would've brought him back to life whether the helmet was there or not. There's nothing else in the SE that stands out as markedly different from the TV series, aside from Dearka killing Clotho. But that's not exactly a major event, so I would personally still consider the TV series as the main source of "official" information.

[NewtypeS3]

I gotta agree on that count, Chris.
In fact, the only real reason to watch those Seed Compilation Movies is to get more Lacus - at the cost of less Fllay.

Personally, I thought the compilation movies for Seed were horribly done. Especially considering they move at 20 times normal speed for much of the movies... only to slow down to a crawl for Lacus singing or for Lacus asking the air if she can leave her room for a few minutes straight.
And then there's the fact that they were little more than a TV special, considering the length was only an hour and 30 minutes for each one.

And considering they change nothing major anyhow (Even with the helmet there, Mu's resurrection makes as little sense), the TV version should just be watched in the first place.
And I do think they gave Dearka the kill on Clotho to make up for his only line in the first movie being a 'grunt.'

[Annon Kaies Zi]

I've had a question that kind of goes with this. If what happens in the video games isn't official then is what happens in the manga also not cannon?

My impression is that manga is even less official than games. The games are at least produced by Bandai, whether or not Sunrise is directly involved. But with a couple of recent exceptions (such as Gundam Seed Astray and Advance of Zeta), manga and serial novels have seldom had any kind of Sunrise involvement or supervision.

-- Mark

Quoting WAY back in this thread, was just wondering...are there any other manga/novels (other than the ASTRAY manga and Advance of Zeta) to were/are being supervised by Sunrise or have their involvement? For instance, what about Gundam Unicorn? Does Sunrise have any part in that?

[toysdream]

Quoting WAY back in this thread, was just wondering...are there any other manga/novels (other than the ASTRAY manga and Advance of Zeta) to were/are being supervised by Sunrise or have their involvement? For instance, what about Gundam Unicorn? Does Sunrise have any part in that?

The Gundam Unicorn credits don't mention Sunrise involvement. I'd have to check all the credits to say for certain, but off the top of my head, I think the only serials that actually give Sunrise a "planning" or "cooperation" credit are Advance of Zeta and the "Gundam Secret Weapons: Phantom Bullet" one-shot. We know the Gundam Seed Astray series are coordinated with Sunrise, but they aren't listed in the credits as with Advance of Zeta.

Besides, he doesn't strike me as the type who loses sleep over what's official or not. Also, if he doesn't consider series he didn't work on official, why did he include mobile suits from 0083, Sentinel and Advance of Zeta in his Zeta trilogy? To me, that looks like some sort of acknowledgment of their existence.

I suppose we could call these cameos a Sunrise in-joke. After all, the Sentinel and Advance of Zeta machines appeared only in the video release of Zeta Gundam III, not in the theatrical version, and they aren't mentioned in Tomino's script. But on the other hand, Tomino directed Turn A Gundam, which acknowledges the existence of almost every non-Tomino animated work. If we count Turn A as part of the Tomino-authored "canon," then his list of approved works ends up looking a lot like Sunrise's, even if his interview comments suggest that this gesture of inclusion was done for business reasons rather than creative ones.


As for the conflicts between different versions of the filmed works--an issue that goes all the way back to the Mobile Suit Gundam movies, and is thus hardly a new problem--it seems to me that showing Mu's floating helmet in the Gundam Seed compilations just means that instead of drifting in the void of space, he's now drifting in the void of space without a helmet, which doesn't exactly make his survival more plausible.

-- Mark

[Deacon Blues]

Well, the credits for the Astray mangas list Sunrise as "Production", so whether you want to count that as an appropriate credit to make them official or not, who knows.

[toysdream]

Well, the credits for the Astray mangas list Sunrise as "Production", so whether you want to count that as an appropriate credit to make them official or not, who knows.

Aha, you're right! That'll teach me to go by the Gundam Ace credits rather than the more complete ones in the compiled volumes.

-- Mark

[Xenogil]

But on the other hand, Tomino directed Turn A Gundam, which acknowledges the existence of almost every non-Tomino animated work. If we count Turn A as part of the Tomino-authored "canon," then his list of approved works ends up looking a lot like Sunrise's, even if his interview comments suggest that this gesture of inclusion was done for business reasons rather than creative ones.

-- Mark

Yeah, it would make sense that the inculsion of all those series he wasn't involved in was done for business purposes, given the fact that he doesn't consider any of them part of his personal vision of Gundam...but then again, Tomino's take on alternate universes is quite different in other interviews, or so I've heard.

[AmuroNT1]

Sorry to perform a bit of treadcromancy, but I just wanted to say something...

I apologize if I come off as arrogant, but does anyone else feel that Sunrise is being arbitrary with their definitions of officiality here? I mean, they reject the Mars Zeon stuff for being too "glitzy", and yet they're all over Advance of Zeta, which introduces several powerful Titans machines that probably could have turned the Gryps Conflict in their favor. And yet, we're supposed to accept the idea that nothing from the series was ever used because the AEUG held Konpeitoh under siege for three months. Meanwhile, the Mars Zeons had thirty years of complete seclusion, and yet the best they could do was to take the already-ancient Zaku II shell and throw in some new internals? I dunno, it just strikes me as odd.

[Deacon Blues]

Now to poke holes in everything, does that mean Unicorn is now official given that a portion of it was animated (trailer or not)?

[toysdream]

Now to poke holes in everything, does that mean Unicorn is now official given that a portion of it was animated (trailer or not)?

That's a good question, and I still have no idea how it's supposed to be applied in the case of the Astray promo videos (which were, after all, produced by Sunrise). In the Dengeki Hobby roundtable feature, we're told that cut-scene animation for games like Gihren's Greed doesn't count as an official "filmed work." But on the other hand, the Gundam Evolve series started out as a bunch of toy-store demo films, so I'd think that the Astray and Unicorn promos would fall into the same kind of category. Whatever category that is.

-- Mark

[NewtypeS3]

And, actually, I just realized something.
Things animated are canon, yes? Especially when Sunrise themselves worked on the project? Then where does this leave SD Gundam?

More specifically, SD Gundam 'Classic' Mk.4, episode 2. That features SD MS running around the invasion of Jaburo, being attacked by both Zeon and Feddie MS alike.
Does this mean that 0079 was invaded by SDs, albeit accidentally, officially now?

[J-Lead]

And, actually, I just realized something.
Things animated are canon, yes? Especially when Sunrise themselves worked on the project? Then where does this leave SD Gundam?

More specifically, SD Gundam 'Classic' Mk.4, episode 2. That features SD MS running around the invasion of Jaburo, being attacked by both Zeon and Feddie MS alike.
Does this mean that 0079 was invaded by SDs, albeit accidentally, officially now?

....

....Somehow I don't think so....

...But, if you were to go entirely by Sunrise's rulebook, I suppose that's the conclusion you'd come to.

[Saikuba]

....

....Somehow I don't think so....

...But I guess if you were to go entirely by Sunrise's rulebook, I suppose that's the conclusion you'd come to.

Disregarding the silliness of it, I don't really see how that episode is any different from the episode of Evolve which clearly contradicts earlier events. And by that I mean I would guess in those cases the more "central" animation would win (which is a similiar situation to the movies vs. tv series problem except there there's no clear more authoratative work).

Except I guess that I'm not sure if that episode explictly contradicts the other animations.

So okay maybe they aren't similar at all. I guess it's just another illustration that this whole "animation is official, everything else isn't" doesn't solve as much problems as it would seem to at first glance.

Though come to think of it, doesn't that episode demonstrate how Salamis are launched? And does anything else show that?