The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by latenlazy » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:42 am

yazi88 wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:39 pm
I don't know... maybe Rustal forced the remaining families to give up their power? We'll never know...

Iznario adopted McGillis and lied about it too because there were rumors floating around about it while most people thought McGillis was really his son. McGillis not being a legit successor was something Rustal exploited after he rallied his forces to crush McGillis's support.

In the end, they could have explained things more... but this is Gundam, majority of the time, these political things get glossed over pretty quickly or don't even get mentioned at all, I can't even remember the last time things were explained well in the aftermath of a Gundam tv show aside from the ending of 00 S2...
Gundam has always been an inherently political franchise, and in most well acclaimed Gundam series, the politics are not in fact glossed over. Whether fans are completely lucid of this or not, politics and world building are essential aspect of the franchise's character, and a key part of how the franchise has gained its following. Politics actively, in both implicit and explicit ways, shapes how fans respond to and judge each installment. Under this paradigm, simply trying to say the show glosses over the politics of the conclusion actually reinforces the criticism.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:52 am

If you word it like that, I can see and understand your criticism. To me, I haven't seen a Gundam tv show in a long time where politics played a actual role in the ending, Turn A and 00 were the last ones I can think of. Maybe I kept my expectation low for the politics aspect in the ending of IBO that I accepted it based on my experience on endings of the past decade Gundam shows aside from 00.

Maybe if there's a special edition/movie compilation of IBO they might add some details/explanations to the ending. Or most likely not. Compilations are usually not done so well Gundam. Just something I pondered about.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by latenlazy » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:38 am

yazi88 wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:52 am
If you word it like that, I can see and understand your criticism. To me, I haven't seen a Gundam tv show in a long time where politics played a actual role in the ending, Turn A and 00 were the last ones I can think of. Maybe I kept my expectation low for the politics aspect in the ending of IBO that I accepted it based on my experience on endings of the past decade Gundam shows aside from 00.

Maybe if there's a special edition/movie compilation of IBO they might add some details/explanations to the ending. Or most likely not. Compilations are usually not done so well Gundam. Just something I pondered about.
Even if we say that politics wasn't important to IBO though, *so* much of what moves this story is inherently political. IBO really depends on the politics of families, patron-client relationships, waning colonialism, aristocratic idealism, etc. etc. to define everything that it tries to do. Some of these aspects are what in fact makes the series so fresh, and the conclusion even manages to handle some of these political aspects quite well. However, it's also these reasons that makes the faults in the ending so glaring.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:05 am

Yeah, I think politically IBO gets most of it right for most of the series. It nails the colonialism themes early-on, and I think that--along with the Mars setting--are some of what the series does best.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by SNT1 » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:13 pm

sdwoodchuck wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:05 am
Yeah, I think politically IBO gets most of it right for most of the series. It nails the colonialism themes early-on, and I think that--along with the Mars setting--are some of what the series does best.
This is why I gave IBO a chance and stuck through it (disclaimer: SNT1 has seen exactly zero episodes of AGE and Reco, and the last full-series Gundam I've watched that isn't Build Fighters is 00).

Oh, and sweet, sweet battle sequences.

yazi88 wrote:Maybe if there's a special edition/movie compilation of IBO they might add some details/explanations to the ending. Or most likely not. Compilations are usually not done so well Gundam. Just something I pondered about.
I kinda hated GSD and 00's because it cut out some pretty good stuff. IBO on the other hand has a smorgasbord of useless dialogue from a smorgasbord of useless characters that of they cut those out the entire story might even flow a little bit better as a whole
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Kuruni » Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:12 am

Funny, I once comment it in another message board but even then it's just quick comparision. Now I think it make even more sense.

McGillis is less Satoru Tojo (Kamen Rider Tiger) with less degree in insanity. Both first appear as a dangerous fighter, but then they sacrifice people close to them as they believe that it'll make them stronger, only to actually become less competent.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Cybaster » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:17 am

Double post, sorry.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Cybaster » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:17 am

Kuruni wrote:
Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:12 am
Funny, I once comment it in another message board but even then it's just quick comparision. Now I think it make even more sense.

McGillis is less Satoru Tojo (Kamen Rider Tiger) with less degree in insanity. Both first appear as a dangerous fighter, but then they sacrifice people close to them as they believe that it'll make them stronger, only to actually become less competent.
More like McGillis being a Scirocco parody, where he backstabs everyone he can, then makes a rousing speech expecting everyone to automatically follow his raw charisma just because he is McGillis and because he made a cool speech and BECAUSE I AM AGNIRA KAIERU YOU SHOULD ALL FOLLOW HOW AWESOME I AM NOW!. But unlike Zeta, there was no automatic sudden mass outpouring of loyalty from the rest of Gjallarhorn, NOBODY bought his bullsh*t this time around, and he didn't die getting his balls rammed by a MS-sized jet (though that would be a cool way to off McGillis anyway if Julietta would only bring said jet to the fight), so. :P
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by doghunter1 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:27 am

SpoilerShow

Is it true that Japanese fans who attended the "Last Flag" that occured hours before the final episode aired heard that the Tekkadan symbol being scratched out of the memorial as seen in the second half was done by Rustal's cronies, and that they're still hunting down the surviving Tekkadan members?

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Deathzealot » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:33 am

I don't think so doghunter. At least for Gjallarhorn hunting down former Tekkadan members I mean. For one simple reason the Kassapa Factory which is named after Nadi. It also sports the eyes Shino usually put on his mobile suits as an emblem. That said, I do think the Tekkadan symbol on the memorial stone was scratched out by looters or something since Tekkadan was kind of demonized after the end of the so-called McGillis Fareed Incident after all.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by doghunter1 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:44 pm

Another thing, can anyone please translate what is said here and here? They're to explain how the show ended as it did.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:07 pm

Hmm... after thinking about McGillis and his actions in season 1 and 2, he wasn't a competent military commander at all. He's a skilled pilot but outside of that, he's a administrative officer given his role as internal inspector and when in charge of the orbital Earth Fleet. He has no experience nor sense of strategy and tactics at all. He pretty much used sneak solo attacks in season 1 and in season 2 we saw how he ended up with losing all his forces and trying to solo Rustal's forces and by copying Tekkadan's ship tactics. Politics is something he seems competent in as he knew how to manuever around the other families in season 2, but I think that could be more of his experience in administrative duties and his poker face.

Gaileo didn't seem to be a competent commander either, in season 1 he sortied in the Kimaris and only had Ein as a subordinate but he didn't lead anyone in battle, even in season 2 he did things solo. Like McGillis being a pilot was something he was good at but nothing else really... Gaileo was able to guess McGillis's sneak moves because he knows him and that's the only thing he's got to one up him and do a rally call when going against McGillis. Iok is incompetent in every way but because of his family name he has loyalty of his personal troops. Rustal really was the most skilled commander in the entire show especially if you compare him to everyone else.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by SonicSP » Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:12 am

Well there's only so much you could do when you're outnumbered two-to-one and the other side has like a lot of Deinsleifs......

He was a pretty terrible assassin though which ultimately led to his downfall and most of not all of his problems in Season 2 and the decisions he was forced to make as a result. If he didn't open a channel to Gaelio or actually thought about stabbing him a few more times, he would be in a way better position in Season 2.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Kuruni » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:04 am

When I think about it...the most impactful of Gaelio being on Rustal's side happen to be one that nobody would think about...

Gaelio was one who tell Iok about how Order of Seven Stars is relate to MA killing.

Without Gaelio, Iok would be too dumb to make the connection himself. So Hushmal will be destroyed without incident > Iok won't wipe out Turbines > Tekkadan would remain with Teiwaz and McGillis will not feel the "pushed" to execute his coup.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:15 am

Let's not forget that McGillis also didn't kill of Iok either during the ground battle on Mars... he pretty much made the same mistake as with Gaileo in season 1... but then again, Iok wasn't a skilled pilot to begin with, and was in a regular Graze in both Mars ground battles. But then again... that did lead the way to one of the most satisfying deaths I've ever seen in Gundam with Akihiro getting payback for the Turbines with crushing Iok to death....

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by SonicSP » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:52 am

I think McGillis would have likely attempted it if Gaelio revealed himself at any point like the way he did in the anime though the meeting would have to happen a different way than the Mars one if the mobile armor never rampaged Mars. Gaelio being alive by itself would have revealed how vulnerable he is, even if being "inspired" by rampaging Barbatos was also part of it (the dude loves his symbolism, that's the second time Barbatos inspired him).

We know at least he planned to get Bael eventually someday with his secret Alaya-Vijnana research though the circumstances might be different and possibly not even very coup-like.

Truth be told, Rustal likely could have gotten McGillis anytime in Season 2, he had more than enough evidence especially since Kimaris mostly intact. Perhaps he wanted to root out all the possible collaborators and McGillis agents within the organization as well?

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:08 pm

SonicSP wrote:
Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:52 am
I think McGillis would have likely attempted it if Gaelio revealed himself at any point like the way he did in the anime though the meeting would have to happen a different way than the Mars one if the mobile armor never rampaged Mars. Gaelio being alive by itself would have revealed how vulnerable he is, even if being "inspired" by rampaging Barbatos was also part of it (the dude loves his symbolism, that's the second time Barbatos inspired him).

We know at least he planned to get Bael eventually someday with his secret Alaya-Vijnana research though the circumstances might be different and possibly not even very coup-like.

Truth be told, Rustal likely could have gotten McGillis anytime in Season 2, he had more than enough evidence especially since Kimaris mostly intact. Perhaps he wanted to root out all the possible collaborators and McGillis agents within the organization as well?
It seemed like Rustal was trying to gather evidence to use against McGillis before going after him aside from Gaelio's testimony, although he did try to off McGillis by using the Abrau SAU conflict by using Galan Mossa to eliminate him behind the scenes.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by SonicSP » Sun Apr 09, 2017 2:21 am

Kimaris in theory should have data recordings of the event, unless it was stored in the cockpit and was destroyed when it was attacked by the sword.

But more evidence wouldn't hurt I guess regardless. Rustal was in that advantageous "they don't know that we know" camp even if he was aware that Rustal was a thorn on his side.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by X_zoro » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:16 am

So Nagai wanted to kill everyone in Tekkadan for the ending of IBO, because he thought none of them deserved to live how you go from "wanting a happier end for season 1" to something like this ? is pretty ZOINKS up and japan is pretty mad with him. ( understandably so)
SpoilerShow
-Every other potential ending had every member of Tekkedan + Kudelia dying because Nagai felt none of them deserved to live and needed to pay for their actions. Okada fought for the ending we got the most positive ending, with the last five episodes were rewritten as a result.
-Okada admitted to never having any confidence in the writing for the second season ( this one really gets since a lot of miss opportunity's)
-Gaelio got special treatment because Okada liked his voice and she wanted him as MC because of it
But all of this comes from the cancer of the internet, Neogaf so take it with a grin of salt.

ttp://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1286777&page=44

I should tell you guys tho, 90% of these guys hated Tekkadan, and thought the ending was amazing and
SpoilerShow
that garbage should die like garbage,
( there were lot of comments like these when the final aired last week) also there is this guy shun who claims to be working with Bandai. (but I don't buy it )

Chris if you are reading this I think this is something to bring up in the next podcast since IBO has been having a lot of ZOINKS up ZOINKS happening behind the scenes ( from what Neogaf so tho)


This is the interview in question https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C89vnVpXYAAWdAI.jpg

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Cybaster » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:28 pm

I would be mad as well if that actually were true - because that everyone in Tekkadan 'deserved to die' means that Nagai feels Gjallarhorn and Rustal were in the right all along and, well, then in that case why weren't they made the show's protagonists in the first place (just make them the AU equivalent of the Earth Federation or OMNI) and Tekkadan a mere terrorist group (ala KPSA or Mafty/Mufti) seeking only to cause as much anarchy as possible!? Or for that matter, to keep the main Gundam a protagonist, why not have Mikazuki, Kudelia and Atra somehow face-turn against McGillis and the rest of Tekkadan at the end of Season 1 (or, say, kill off Atra to give Mikazuki and Kudelia said reason to face-turn, even)? That's like if someone said everyone in the AEUG should be gassed because the Titans did nothing wrong and the AEUG were the REAL terrorists secretly supporting Char's pro-spacenoid agenda, or that Gihren was in the right all along so the White Base crew should be the ones to die horribly, or that Flit should've annihilated the Vagans anyway solely because of what Desil did to Yurin...

...oh, wait...People do think that. And make Memes of them.

At this point I seriously doubt Nagai really felt Tekkadan all 'deserved to die', much less due to an actual viewpoint; IMO if that's true, then he's just riding that Meme train where apparently 'Zeon/the Titans/Char/Full Frontal/Riddhe/OZ/ZAFT/Blue Cosmos/A-LAWS/Flit did nothing wrong' for the sake of being 'smart/shocking' (and if it isn't true, that F*CKING Meme is basically what Neogaf is trying to shove down our throats, but thinking that they're being so 'subtle' by not actually mentioning Hitler). Note, though, that 'blame the director' is a pretty common knee-jerk response in the face of a show's unpopularity, so either way a grain of salt is required - and hope that IBO wasn't actually being ruined by the sake of someone with executive producing power following a g*ddamn meme.
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