The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by phillosmaster » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:41 pm

sdwoodchuck wrote:
Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:34 am
Continuing the Kudelia discussion, people seem to be weirdly conflating "getting things done" or "accomplishing goals" with character development. The majority of her screen time in Season 1 is a bunch of "am I doing the right thing" self doubt, which is anime easy-mode for pathos. There's no problem with self doubt, but there's no indication of her actually overcoming this. There's no indication that she actually comprehends or deals with the reality of her situation in any kind of hands-on way. She just doubts, doubts, doubts--meanwhile everybody else keeps talking KUDELIA AINA BERNSTEIN, and her position as a leader, and her work fighting for equality, and there's none of this on screen. There's just a anxious, nervous, self-doubting little girl, until the plot needs her to be strong, and then suddenly she has a backbone and she'll give a rousing speech, and everybody goes "whoa," and I guess the audience is supposed to think this is compelling development? It's nonsense. It's like the teen movie where the nerdy girl gets a makeover that consists of losing her glasses and letting her hair down, and suddenly she's a whole different person; Kudelia goes from weak, anxious, and ineffectual to charismatic leader based on nothing at all, except the plot demanding it.
I usually don't want to get sucked into these sorts of debates because I find rarely does either side back down from their original position, but I just wanted to point out that there is no indication of her not overcoming her anxiety also. If there have been scenes in season 2 of Kudelia constantly bleeding indecisively then they certainly didn't stick in my mind. Also self doubt is not a character flaw. A perfectly rational person will always have some level of self doubt. There is a difference between self doubt and crippling anxiety.

All that said we had a whole season where Kudelia had to "man up". that was season 1. Season 2 is time skipped to Kudelia actually in her role as civic leader. A role that just recently forced her to cut ties with the people she considers family. We didn't see her on every step of her journey, but we had a time skip and we don't need to be lead by the hand in order to understand what a character is going through. I don't need to see everything she does to accept that she's doing them. I mean is that what you want out of a gundam show? A bunch of treaty meetings and handshakes.

I think this goes for most of the other characters. I'm not going to compare IBO with the great works of literature or anything (let's not get crazy), but I really appreciate how subtle it is with it's character development when most anime hit you over the head with it.

Are you sure you are not just disappointed because you expected a different journey for Kudelia? Perhaps you thought she was suppose to literally become a maiden of revolution. Charging on the front line with the soldiers. That would be her accepting fantasy as fact, which is the opposite of where her story is going. Kudelia's arc seems to be not only about maturing into a leader role, but also accepting the reality of the world over the fantasy she had in her head. She's walking down a path she believes will help improve the conditions on Mars more effectively. I think part of her being present during the Dort incident was suppose to show her just what bloody revolution can be like.

All that said there are still a few episodes left and she's still alive so we'll see where her character ends up.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by domino » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:32 pm

I doubt that Dainslefs can be used that easily in atmosphere. Those huge cannons would be difficult to manipulate under gravity.

Even Flaurios had to transform and brace itself before it fired its cannons

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Kuruni » Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:45 am

Calubin_175 wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:14 pm
The pregnant women and children escape with Hush(and maybe Iok offers these civilian safe passage if he redeems himself).
Even if Iok manage to growth up his role model is Rustal, so it's extremely unlikely he'll take "mercy" or "humane" as development.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:11 am

phillosmaster wrote:
Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:41 pm
Are you sure you are not just disappointed because you expected a different journey for Kudelia?
I'm going to be responding to your whole post, but I'm just quoting the part of it because A) I think what you have here is kind of the crux of both what you're getting at, and B) I'd rather avoid a quote chain getting TOO out of control, haha.

I definitely didn't envision a different journey for Kudelia; she's been one of the show's (thankfully very few) obnoxious elements from the start, and I've never felt invested in what she attempts or accomplishes. I also wouldn't say that her character development is something I'm disappointed by. As you point out yourself, there are certain things that don't really fit the theme of a Gundam TV show, and that I would rather they weren't spending their limited time covering, and the character development of a character that's really a plot motivator more than anything is probably something that should be left on the cutting room floor, and generally has been. My post is more so in response to those folks who are claiming that she is a well-developed character. She isn't, and it's perfectly fine that she isn't, but if folks are gonna start saying otherwise, well, I'm gonna get incredulous.

I'll also point out that my summary of her character was solely her arc in Season 1. Season 2 she's been relegated to the background, and I'm fine with that. I've heard others voice the complaint that her scenes feel wasted in Season 2, because she's not really contributing anything. I can understand those opinions, but I don't exactly sympathize.

It's funny you mention IBO's character development vs. "most anime," which, as you put it, "beat you over the head with it." I've been a Gundam fan for a long, long time, but I am not a fan of anime in general, and in fact I'd go so far as to say that I don't have any real patience for it. There are a number of reasons for this, but the absolutely abysmal character writing is right up there. Of course no generalization is 100%, and there are anime that break the mold, but so much of anime is so bogged down in the tropes of the trade that most anime dialogue scenes are entirely superfluous, with cookie-cutter characters delivering cookie-cutter philosophical monologues. So yes, if we're comparing IBO to its field, it is mercifully nowhere near that bad.

I don't judge quality that way though. In the same way that it would be unfair to judge IBO against high literature (and I agree with you on that), it's also unfairly generous to judge it against the worst dregs. I think IBO's biggest advantage here isn't necessarily subtlety (I don't think it's subtle at all, actually), but prioritization. The writers on IBO have enough sense to understand that their limited screen time is better spent advancing the plot than deeply exploring the characters, and I mostly agree, that's the better choice, especially with such a large cast. Again, when I say the character writing isn't very good, this isn't to say that this is something the show is doing wrong, but if somebody is going to start talking up the character writing in IBO, I'm going to disagree. I wouldn't go to McDonald's and then complain about the cheap food, but if somebody says to me "they make a really good chicken sandwhich," I'm going to say "whoa now, hold up, are you high right now?" It's the same thing here. I don't think the character writing is good, but I don't consider that a mark against the show, because that's not really their goal.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:55 am

It seems you're overthinking this a bit too much and over-speculating what the writers really want and how it's not how you think it should be going...

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:43 pm

It seems like you can't read, because my post has absolutely nothing to do with speculation or expectations going forward, and everything to do with what the writers have been doing, which I'm mostly praising. On top of that I've actively said (more than once in that post) that I think they're making the right choices in prioritizing plotting over character development.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:45 pm

sdwoodchuck wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:43 pm
It seems like you can't read, because my post has absolutely nothing to do with speculation or expectations going forward, and everything to do with what the writers have been doing, which I'm mostly praising. On top of that I've actively said (more than once in that post) that I think they're making the right choices in prioritizing plotting over character development.
In a good number of your previous posts you do over-speculate and keep insisting that McGillis is the main evil guy in the show and you also think Kudelia's development was because the plot demanded so and not of her own accord. In the 1st season yes she started off kind of timid and had doubts but given her situation it was a given because she is pretty selfless. She rose with her confidence when she stepped up to the Gjarrhorn fleet in season 1 and brokered deals with various people. She is pretty competent and is sincere in that she wants to help the people of Mars which was her main goal in season 1. I'm also basing things on actions and not just words, which is a part of character development and not just forced plot as you keep stating. That is your interpretation and not the actual thing that happened on screen.

And you have stated about the failure from the writers about Rustal which is overspeculation. You keep saying he is a bland character when he is ruthless and just because he's not yelling like other villians about his true intentions that you can't seem to pick up from his actions. His dialogue especially in the recent ep shows he wants to keep Gjarrhorn as the top power via any means, even if it meant killing or framing innocent people. You are playing arm chair quarterback at what the writers are doing and what character development is in this show.

And like Pilosmaster said earlier, IBO is more subtle about things like character development rather than beating you over the head about it out loud compared to other shows, including other Gundam shows.
Last edited by yazi88 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:03 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:45 pm
sdwoodchuck wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:43 pm
It seems like you can't read, because my post has absolutely nothing to do with speculation or expectations going forward, and everything to do with what the writers have been doing, which I'm mostly praising. On top of that I've actively said (more than once in that post) that I think they're making the right choices in prioritizing plotting over character development.
In a good number of your previous posts you do over-speculate and keep insisting that McGillis is the main evil guy in the show and you also think Kudelia's development was because the plot demanded so and not of her own accord. In the 1st season yes she started off kind of timid and had doubts but given her situation it was a given because she is pretty selfless. She rose with her confidence when she stepped up to the Gjarrhorn fleet in season 1 and brokered deals with various people. She is pretty competent and is sincere in that she wants to help the people of Mars which was her main goal in season 1. I'm also basing things on actions and not just words, which is a part of character development and not just forced plot as you keep stating. That is your interpretation and not the actual thing that happened on screen.

And you have stated about the failure from the writers about Rustal which is overspeculation. You keep saying he is a bland character when he is ruthless and just because he's not yelling like other villians about his true intentions that you can't seem to pick up from his actions. His dialogue especially in the recent ep shows he wants to keep Gjarrhorn as the top power via any means, even if it meant killing or framing innocent people. You are playing arm chair quarterback at what the writers are doing and what character development is in this show.
I've said that McGillis is clearly groomed by the writers to be the villain of the show. Call that overspeculating if you want; I call it common sense.

If you think Kudelia is "developed" as a character as anything other than being in service to the plot, I don't know what to tell you. She isn't. You can read more into the work they've done there than they've actually done if you like, but her character writing is paper-thin. As I've said, that's not a problem with the series--I prefer it focusing on other elements.

And you completely misread what I've said about Rustal. He's written as the red-herring villain. He's not interesting enough as a character to be a primary villain. What I've said is that IF they're planning for him to be their primary villain, then the writers have failed to make him an interesting one. That isn't a speculation, that's criticism. I don't think that's how it's going at all, because there's no reason to think it, but if the folks thinking Rustal is going to be the big bad in the end are right, then yes, I'd say the writers have failed, not because they didn't do what I was hoping they were going to do (which is a petty assumption on your part), but because he is not an interesting character.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:08 pm

sdwoodchuck wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:43 pm

And you completely misread what I've said about Rustal. He's written as the red-herring villain. He's not interesting enough as a character to be a primary villain. What I've said is that IF they're planning for him to be their primary villain, then the writers have failed to make him an interesting one. That isn't a speculation, that's criticism. I don't think that's how it's going at all, because there's no reason to think it, but if the folks thinking Rustal is going to be the big bad in the end are right, then yes, I'd say the writers have failed, not because they didn't do what I was hoping they were going to do (which is a petty assumption on your part), but because he is not an interesting character.

Just because Rustal isn't a interesting character to you doesn't mean he can't be a main villain, how many Gundam shows have we had in the past or even anime shows in general where the main villains are not interesting and at times come off as cartoonishly evil or just bland? Far too often than not. The last time I can think of we saw a interesting Gundam main villain was Ribbons in 00. You are putting too much stock on a villain being interesting to be the primary bad guy when a lot of times it is not the case.
You can't just blame the writers for IBO for that when other shows are just as guilty of it. Because you can't find him interesting to be the bad guy is a failure on the writers part because it's what you are expecting and wanting rather than what is happening.
I find him to be a decent villain given the settings of IBO. He has characteristics that make him stand out as a villain compared to other shows, he is smart, knows tactics, ruthless, and politically savvy, he can keep a cool head too. That is something I don't see very often in villains these days.

I'm also basing things being plausible and not just outright saying its going to happen indefinitely, especially in IBO which has thrown a good number of curveballs at plot and even certain character types like Orga that a lot of people thought would drown himself in power and be a bad guy when in the end, but he's still a good guy, he only wants what's best for Tekkadan especially the dangerous settings of IBO.

You also seem to be the only person thinking that Kudelia isn't a developed character and is just a plot point for the show...

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Amion » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:05 pm

I didn't find Ribbons interesting. In fact, Rustal is more intriguing to me than Ribonz-kun. So interesting villains are a relative thing. Evil charisma is in the eye of the beholder, or the beheaded, who likely would have a heftier appreciative hate for the guys that did them in.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:19 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:08 pm
Just because Rustal isn't a interesting character to you doesn't mean he can't be a main villain, how many Gundam shows have we had in the past or even anime shows in general where the main villains are not interesting and at times come off as cartoonishly evil or just bland? Far too often than not. The last time I can think of we saw a interesting Gundam main villain was Ribbons in 00. You are putting too much stock on a villain being interesting to be the primary bad guy when a lot of times it is not the case.
You can't just blame the writers for IBO for that when other shows are just as guilty of it. Because you can't find him interesting to be the bad guy is a failure on the writers part because it's what you are expecting and wanting rather than what is happening.
I find him to be a decent villain given the settings of IBO. He has characteristics that make him stand out as a villain compared to other shows, he is smart, knows tactics, ruthless, and politically savvy, he can keep a cool head too. That is something I don't see very often in villains these days.

I'm also basing things being plausible and not just outright saying its going to happen indefinitely, especially in IBO which has thrown a good number of curveballs at plot and even certain character types like Orga that a lot of people thought would drown himself in power and be a bad guy when in the end, but he's still a good guy, he only wants what's best for Tekkadan especially the dangerous settings of IBO.

You also seem to be the only person thinking that Kudelia isn't a developed character and is just a plot point for the show...
I didn't say he can't be the primary villain; I said it would be a failure on the writers' part if he is, because they've failed to make him interesting. There are many shows guilty of this; I agree. That doesn't absolve the IBO writers of poor writing if that winds up being the case; I don't even begin to see how you come to that conclusion. Bad writing is bad writing no matter who does it, and it's not beholden on me to point out all the others that do it as well.

As for IBO, the writing here has been better than most of its contemporaries, in that it knows how to prioritize. That's why it would be surprising to me if they drop the ball in the ending as badly as other shows do.

As for me being the only one saying this, that's not much of a claim in a fan community. Fan communities are notorious about puffing up the qualities of the shows they're fans of, especially on new releases. And I'm not trying to convince anybody to dislike the show--I actually like the show a lot. But when folks start talking about character development of characters like Kudelia in IBO, or talking about Rustal being an interesting villain, that's some serious confirmation bias at play.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:24 pm

Alright... agree to disagree, let's just leave it at that.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:36 pm

Yeah, that was the plan last time, before you decided to start bringing up old disagreements again when I was responding to somebody else about something else entirely. But sure, let's try that "agree to disagree" thing again.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:39 pm

Sorry, my bad.

I wonder if there is a mobile armor on the moon, given how much it got wrecked in the Calamity War, although Rustal's fleet HQ is there too so it seems unlikely.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:49 pm

I'm also curious what's up with the Earth's Moon. It's hard to tell for sure the extent of the damage, but the few shots of it they've shown have seemed very deeply pockmarked at the very least, and likely misshapen to some degree. As dangerous as the Mobile Armor we've seen was, it didn't show any capability of being destructive to the degree that could accomplish that. So I'm curious what their answer is for that.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:53 pm

Given we saw just one mobile armor, and that its named after one of ten angels in Judaism, which matches the naming of the 72 Gundams after demons, its very likely there are 9 other mobile armors. I'm assuming most of them are destroyed.

But perhaps each could have different weapons. The beam cannon on the Hashmel was already pretty powerful, just not on the laminate armor on mobile suits and its own armor. So maybe one of the other mobile armors had a very powerful weapon or it might've been caused by collateral damage from trying to defeat mobile armors. From what we have heard from the show, it was caused during the Calamity War, so it can't have been caused by a war between humans/rival factions.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:15 pm

Yeah, it definitely could be a mobile armor that did it, but it would have to be a hell of a lot more powerful than what we saw of Hashmal. Hashmal is strong enough to burn down a city, but in order to actually cause craters in the moon that are visible from earth with the naked eye, we're talking weapons that have destructive power far beyond anything the series has shown us. I don't think a colony drop on the moon would even cause the kind of craters we see up there. And if the moon is actually as misshapen as it looks, then we're talking orders of magnitude greater than that even.

It seems reasonable that it was caused, in some way, by the mobile armors, and it's entirely plausible that what we saw of Hashmal is just the last of its armaments that it was defeated with, and perhaps not a full display of what it's capable of. It's just a matter of what they were actually capable of, which so far we don't know.

Another possibility is that the Mobile Armors didn't cause it, and that it was caused by humans either fighting against them, or by a human conflict that "awakened" them. Considering the names of the Mobile Armors and the fact that certain weapons are considered taboo, I have a strong suspicion that the mobile armors were left by a more advanced civilization (likely human, but not necessarily) that saw itself reaching a point of catastrophic decline due to technological advancement, and created the mobile armors as a way to keep future generations in check, and prevent advancing "too far" down the road of destruction. If we consider the Turn-A Dark History, with civilization rising, reaching a point of violent critical mass, and declining before re-emerging, it would be like the one era leaving behind a failsafe to try and prevent the next era from replicating their mistakes, and perhaps it isn't that Agnika Kaieru defeated the Mobile Armors--it may be that he made a deal with them, agreeing to form a regulatory body to keep conflict in check, and in exchange the MA's all went to sleep. Perhaps it was the Dainsleif itself that caused the activation of the mobile armors during the calamity war, which is why it's considered taboo now, and its reemergence is going to reawaken them en masse.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by yazi88 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:30 pm

In the show McGillis said that Mobile Armors were made by humans, and probably during a time where humanity was constantly at war, and as we have seen in Gundam before, machines made to kill humans sadly tends to happen. Genocidal organizations and groups in Gundam is a dime a dozen. It seems to be the most plausible answer.

It is very unlikely that Agnika made a deal with the MAs as they are devoid of any emotion and are programmed only to kill. Plus with the Hashmel it was damaged to the point of being inactive, most likely from the Flauros as it was found wrecked near the Hashmel.

IBO is pretty grounded with its history, compared to more supernatural Turn A and G-Reco with the past/dark history thing is more of a Tomino thing, he did the taboo/lost technology in Xabungle, Turn A, Gainer and G-Reco. There doesn't need to be a overly complicated history for the creation of mobile armors. I'm just saying its likely human stupidity from conflicts.
Last edited by yazi88 on Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by Kuruni » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:31 pm

Yup, Hushmal's model kit manual noted that the AI gone rogue because human's persuit of efficiency. In other words, we want the machine that's incredible good at killing humans and we get it.

Semi-off topic.

If they make a short joke OVA, they should include this scene.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk IV

Post by sdwoodchuck » Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:42 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:30 pm
=It is very unlikely that Agnika made a deal with the MAs as they are devoid of any emotion and are programmed only to kill.
Again, this is taking characters' assessment of the situation at their word. It may be the case, but there's no reason to assume everything a person in the show says is true, or accurate. The characters are definitely capable of misunderstanding their own history.

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