The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:27 am

In the 1st season Tekkadan was only involved in skirmishes and small scale battles, even in Edmonton there wasn't a whole army of Grazes waiting. Relying on Mika alone can only get you so far, especially when the Barbartos has mostly conventional weapons aside from the tail stinger, not a win all super-powerful fleet decimating weapons compared to the last Gundam shows within the past couple of years. I still appreciate how scaled back the weapons are in IBO.

Here they are facing the full might of the Arianrhod Fleet and its now a full scale war. Tekkadan however can survive on Mars, their home turf, because:
1. Resort to Guerrilla style tactics
2. Ships are space bound only, so while Rustal's forces can land, if Mar's branch comes under McGillis's control, Rustal's ground forces will not be able to resupply without a base or go back to their ships.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by PowerdGNFlag » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:59 am

Not quite ontopic but aren't we due for a new thread?
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Amion » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:11 pm

That's what I said, GN. Have the Mods left us plebeians to our own devices?
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by SonicSP » Tue Mar 07, 2017 2:30 pm

We may even get a 00 Season 1 type situation where they lose in the end but not before dealing a huge blow to the enemy beforehand.

In other words going out in style, some with double defeats battle situations.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by Amion » Tue Mar 07, 2017 10:11 pm

I could go for that. But only if it means Idiok dies. It's a not a happy ending unless he goes.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by sdwoodchuck » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:02 pm

I think we're going to have one last major paradigm shift. As it stands right now, one of two things happen:

A) Tekkadan + McGillis win. This is really unlikely, because McGillis is clearly a backstabbing dirtbag; it just doesn't play into his character arc so far at all to have him just be on the victorious side. It also doesn't play into his character arc to have him just die on the way to victory.

B) Tekkadan + McGillis lose. This is also really unlikely, because having Tekkadan killed by one dirtbag because of aligning themselves with a different dirtbag doesn't fit their story arc either.

I'm not saying either of these possibilities is impossible, but they seem highly unlikely to me. If it winds up that way, I won't be surprised to hear that there were massive rewrites somewhere along the line. I don't expect it will happen though. I expect another paradigm shift. Something is going to cause McGillis to make a desperation move in order to preserve his ruthless ambition. I suspect this will somehow kill Rustal and probably the leader of the Teiwaz, and threaten Mars in a way that will cause Tekkadan to turn on him. This allows one dirtbag to kill the other dirtbag, for McGillis to fulfill his character arc, and for Tekkadan to turn their fortunes around, as they can redeem themselves for siding with the traitor, and establish themselves as the primary military force around Mars with the Gjallarhorn fleet in the area crippled.

If I had to guess, I'm going to assume it involves activating another mobile armor, or perhaps the old one repaired.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:48 pm

McGillis has done shady things, but definitely not a complete dirtbag. Yes he did try to kill Gaileo who was a obstacle in his goals. His goals are not a bad thing either, to take down the corrupt Gjarrhorn that we've seen is a organization that is committing Titans style tactics to keep their own power along with war crimes especially with Rustal and his fleet.

If anything I consider Gaileo a bigger dirtbag. He was a racist in the 1st season against people with AV system and Mars too. While he did disagree with the Dort Colony situation, he still sortied to fight Mika and did not mind if Ein shot down a non-combat civilian ship or Ein fighting in a civilian city... And while I can't blame Gaileo for wanting revenge on McGillis, he is siding with Rustal who committed numerous war crimes and doesn't care about the evils or massive hypocrisy in Gjarrhorn.

If you think McGillis is a dirtbag, then by actions, you probably consider Char from OYW to be one too, cause what McGillis has done so far is no different from Char. And McGillis has helped the protagonists and has not hurt innocent people or civilians. Yes McGillis wants power, and there certainly is a possibility that he could be a tyrant, but there is also the chance he wants to remake Gjharrhorn into the decent organization it was when it was formed after the Calamity War.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by sdwoodchuck » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:05 am

His goal is not to reform Gjallarhorn though. That's the reasoning he gives everybody to make them sympathetic to his cause (and to be frank, I suspect the writers earlier on intended that for him and later changed their minds), but he's outright said that what he's after is complete power. He wants to be the top of the heap, and he's willing to do whatever it takes in order to have that power.

Gaelio is not as bad. He was absolutely bigoted during the beginning of Season 1, I agree there. But they've done an adequate job showing the way in which he grew up in a sheltered life, unexposed to the harsh realities of the world such that something like that seems monstrous. At the very least, he's shown the capacity for change in that scope. And again, I suspect the writers have changed track on him as the series has gone on, because a lot of what he's doing now doesn't actually jive with his earlier behavior. Thinking he's worse than McGillis though? I can't get behind that. McGillis is an outright sociopath.

Char in 0079 is also a dirtbag, but also not quite as bad. He's out purely for revenge, and is targeting people at times who had no hand in his the actions he's avenging. That said, he's not entirely without empathy, and his goal isn't to take hold of power for himself.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:16 am

Yeah but power is a way for him to reshape Gjahrrhorn, we've seen McGillis's intentions from the beginning to reshape the organization, especially in the form of Bael which is the symbol of Gjarrhorn. Having power is not a bad thing, its what you do with it that makes a determines if you are a good guy or bad guy.

I'm determining Gaileo and McGillis based on their actions from what we have seen so far. Gaileo started off a decent guy but now he is nothing but a toadie for Rustal and is willing to fight for a war criminal who has committed lots of atrocities, how does that make him a more decent guy than McGillis?

McGillis has seen the hypocrisy and the corruption of Gjarrhorn and has said it many times over, he wants power in order to change it.

What the writers meant or changed is irrelevant as we don't we know the insides of their minds, what we can do is base things on what is shown on the show.

We've seen McGillis awful past and what Iznario did to him... power is something you need in order to achieve your goals, that is something McGillis was set on as a kid and is still continuing. I do like his interactions with Mika and he is kind of honest with him too.

And there is no real reason for McGillis to backstab Tekkadan, why would he need to? They'll just stay on Mars and do their own thing, they don't really care what's going on Earth unless Kudelia is involved or in danger. They are helping him because he made a deal with them about Mars and there was a bit of good faith as he also helped them out numerous times in the past some of which he didn't need to go as far.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by sdwoodchuck » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:28 am

I'm also judging them based on their actions. McGillis throws his allies under the bus in order to grab power. He's an actual outright sociopath. Yes he has a tragic history--most Gundam villains do--but his actions are not the actions of someone who is looking to actually make progressive change, and there is nothing in the series to suggest that the things he tells the people around him are at all honest. He's making a power grab, he's using people as pawns to do it, and he doesn't care who dies in the process. Does that sound like someone who, once he's in power, is going to behave in a just and fair manner? McGillis is not a hero in this series. Not by a long shot. The notion of it is just absurd.

I don't think Gaelio is either, for that matter. He's trying to take down McGillis, and he's willing to side with the (also despicable) Rustal to do it. But he's not after dictatorial power.

The comments about the writers changing track were just an observation. I think at some point in the writing process McGillis was intended to be a more heroic figure, but when they confirmed that there was going to be a Season 2, he was modified to be the power-hungry creep he is now. I don't really have any solid reasoning for thinking so, but his earlier behavior just doesn't seem to indicate the level of bad that he is now. Though he was still betrothed to a nine-year-old...

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:40 am

I'm not saying McGillis is a hero. He has his own agendas. But are his agendas worse than the current Gjarrhorn? He is out to topple Rustal and reform the organization. Yes there may be a possibility that he might be worse, but he might also shape up the organization into a decent group, better than the current regime. Yes he has to take dirty steps to do it, its not a clean thing to do, but we've seen what he's up against, he is outmanned and outgunned. What McGillis is doing this season isn't really any different from season 1, he's taken a more active approach given that Rustal tried to kill him earlier in the season. This is a messed up world in IBO where playing fair and just can only get you so far before you are betrayed or killed.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by SNT1 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:47 am

He threw Gaelio under the bus because him being a royal family means he is part of the corruption (And based on Gali Gali's alliance with Rustal it seems like he's more justified in that regard)

That said, one cannot deny that he seems to genuinely admire Mika and his Agnika-Kaieru-ness, and I feel like he seems to identify with Tekkadan more, being from the streets and all. Plus, aside from Gaelio and Carta, who were both royal members, he hasn't betrayed other characters; he seemed to have mutual support for Isurugi until the end, who by the way is not of royal descent and was from the colonies.

Also not denying that he's FUBAR'd sociopath, but right now I cannot see him betraying Tekkadan. Remember the overhand right? Tekkadan is more likely to abandon him, actually, instead of the other way around (even though I don't see that coming any time soon either)
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by sdwoodchuck » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:50 am

I'm not saying McGillis is worse than Rustal. He may be, but we really don't get enough of Rustal to say.

But check it out, his gripes with Gjallarhorn hoarding power among an elite few, and treating everybody else as expendable don't amount to anything when his entire plan involves 1) hoarding power for himself at the top, and 2) treating everybody else as expendable in his quest to get there. His behavior is 100% hypocritical. He is engaging in exactly the behavior he tells others he's trying to prevent. He lies to literally every subordinate he has, tosses them to their deaths, and smiles about it. Why on earth would anyone watching the show believe him for a second when he goes into a clearly rehearsed speech about how he's really out to "reform" Gjallarhorn?

McGillis is clearly, clearly written to be the primary villain of the series. Like, there's no doubt there at all, for me. He's the power-hungry, manipulative, sociopathic dictator painted clear as day.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 12:56 am

We'll just have to wait and see what happens with McGillis and Tekkadan. It is a interesting scenario that has many different potential outcomes. The high tension makes it exciting for me to see what happens.

That is speculation on McGillis being the primary villian, you can't jump and say that's going to happen because we don't exactly know which scenario the writers are going for. IBO has thrown a good amount of curveballs rather than go in a more predictable route compared to previous Gundam shows. If McGillis ends up being the big bad then I'll agree but until then I don't want to jump the gun and over-speculate.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by sdwoodchuck » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:12 am

Well, I look at any other possibility, and all I see are side-characters. Rustal is sort of portrayed as the villain, but he's too bland to be a primary villain. He strikes me as the red-herring villain, sort of like Jamitov in Zeta, who is replaced toward the end by the charismatic, ambitious, sociopath Scirocco. Not to mention Rustal isn't a pilot, and primary antagonists almost always are. At this point, if they just stick with Rustal and company being the threat, then it would be a curveball, sure, but it would be a really unsatisfying curveball from a narrative perspective to just have a character who isn't very fleshed out being the primary threat they need to overcome.

Granted, they're pushing the switch to the very last possible moment when we're in the final four episodes. But maybe the series is getting another extension; it's still been popular in Japan, and the gunpla have been selling well. If we assume that it ends with Season 2, then I'm guessing paradigm shift to quickly off Rustal and establish McGillis as villain in the next two episodes, but I wouldn't be shocked if Tekkadan and McGillis manage a pyrrhic victory setting up a third season or a movie with McGillis as the villain.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:17 am

Sadly in Gundam we have had a good number of bland primary villains... Rustal is a smart villian though, he has charisma and knows how to keep cool in battle, and has a good sense of tactics, we don't always know or need to know their backstories. He is like Scirroco in some ways but he also controls the might of Gjarrhorn and will do anything to keep it.

And there is also a possibility for a not so satisfying ending for IBO, very few anime especially Gundam have good/satisfying endings especially within the last decade... Excluding Build Fighters and Try, only 00 has had a pretty decent ending in both season 2 and the movie but that was also a long time ago now. But these are my thoughts on the trend of anime, or maybe I'm just getting old. :D
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by SNT1 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:20 am

sdwoodchuck wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:12 am
Rustal is sort of portrayed as the villain, but he's too bland to be a primary villain. He strikes me as the red-herring villain, sort of like Jamitov in Zeta, who is replaced toward the end by the charismatic, ambitious, sociopath Scirocco. Not to mention Rustal isn't a pilot, and primary antagonists almost always are. At this point, if they just stick with Rustal and company being the threat, then it would be a curveball, sure, but it would be a really unsatisfying curveball from a narrative perspective to just have a character who isn't very fleshed out being the primary threat they need to overcome.
Not sure if we're watching the same show here? Rustal and his crew is responsible for literally all the bad crap going on in S2. McGillis being the big bad as you propose is the curveball.
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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by sdwoodchuck » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:32 am

SNT1 wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:20 am
sdwoodchuck wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:12 am
Rustal is sort of portrayed as the villain, but he's too bland to be a primary villain. He strikes me as the red-herring villain, sort of like Jamitov in Zeta, who is replaced toward the end by the charismatic, ambitious, sociopath Scirocco. Not to mention Rustal isn't a pilot, and primary antagonists almost always are. At this point, if they just stick with Rustal and company being the threat, then it would be a curveball, sure, but it would be a really unsatisfying curveball from a narrative perspective to just have a character who isn't very fleshed out being the primary threat they need to overcome.
Not sure if we're watching the same show here? Rustal and his crew is responsible for literally all the bad crap going on in S2. McGillis being the big bad as you propose is the curveball.
First off, them being responsible for the bad stuff is beside the point I'm making. He's not an interesting character. He's a very standard-fair military-leader-bastard character. He's the Jamitov or the Bask; makes a great red herring while the real villain gets set up on the sidelines.

Second though, I disagree with you, at least partially. "All the bad crap" that has befallen Tekkadan has come directly as a result of McGillis' power-hungry ambitions, and their being tied to him. Their loyalty to the guy who is desperately trying to overthrow the established order is what put them in the crosshairs. McGillis has manipulated them into being his private mercenary force, and endangered "the family" in the process.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by sdwoodchuck » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:34 am

yazi88 wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:17 am
And there is also a possibility for a not so satisfying ending for IBO, very few anime especially Gundam have good/satisfying endings especially within the last decade... Excluding Build Fighters and Try, only 00 has had a pretty decent ending in both season 2 and the movie but that was also a long time ago now. But these are my thoughts on the trend of anime, or maybe I'm just getting old. :D
You've got me there; aside from Gundam, I haven't really bothered with anime for about twenty years now, so my perspective there is possibly skewed. IBO's writing is mostly quality though; it would surprise me to have it fumble the ending that badly.

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Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Anime Thread Mk III

Post by SNT1 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:58 am

sdwoodchuck wrote:
Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:32 am
First off, them being responsible for the bad stuff is beside the point I'm making. He's not an interesting character. He's a very standard-fair military-leader-bastard character. He's the Jamitov or the Bask; makes a great red herring while the real villain gets set up on the sidelines.
I'm focusing more on the definition of "curveball"; that Rustal has always been the main bad of S2, regardless of how uninteresting he is (and IMO his sheer ruthlessness makes up for his admittedly mustache-twirly moments) and that McGillis has been an ally of Tekkadan for about 30 episodes means that McGillis turning on Tekkadan (with 4 remaining episodes!) is the curveball; after all, how does a curveball behave? You think it's going one way (Rustal big bad) and at the last second switches direction.

Second though, I disagree with you, at least partially. "All the bad crap" that has befallen Tekkadan has come directly as a result of McGillis' power-hungry ambitions, and their being tied to him. Their loyalty to the guy who is desperately trying to overthrow the established order is what put them in the crosshairs. McGillis has manipulated them into being his private mercenary force, and endangered "the family" in the process.
Not saying that Tekkadan didn't bring some of that upon themselves, but you can't pin the events such as Galan Mossa's fake war, Dort suppression, and basically everything Iok does on McGillis. I'm talking about the entirety of characters and factions, not just Tekkadan. Even then, Tekkadan made the choice to ally with McGillis, especially when Tekkadan decided to leave Teiwaz and solely rest their own ambitions on McGillis.
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