The Official Gundam Unicorn Re: 0096 Anime Thread Mk I

[Dark Duel]

Okay, so I watched the episode. And I have to agree that the main sticking point is the redundancy with the Unicorn's transformation to Destroy mode - and it's not like cutting the duplicate sequence from the beginning of Ep3 would've made a difference - it's literally only about twenty seconds of footage. Twenty seconds of footage cropped off, and it would've made for a much smoother flow. Instead, it has that awkward repetition.

Now, going into this "Re: 0096" project and watching the first couple of episodes, I personally felt that Unicorn 1-2 were by far its strongest episodes, and didn't really need to be expanded or improved in any way. It's the later episodes, and IMO especially Ep4 that could use some help - if there is any substantial new footage used, that is. And I think the chances of that happening are approximately nil.

I mean, there's lazy editing. And then there's completely not giving a flying f***. And clearly, the folks at Banrise at this point are in the latter category. Which IMO makes it increasingly likely that they're gonna do f*** all in terms of the show other than chop it up into twenty-minute segments and regurgitate them.
I'll keep an eye out for now. But I find my expectations of this show have been dramatically lowered moving forward. Which is a shame.

On an unrelated note, I don't remember having noticed this before, but as I was watching the episode I noticed that the revolver Alberto uses to shoot Cardeas has its barrel lined up with the bottom of the cylinder(rather than the top as is usual with revolvers), much like the weapon of choice of Togusa in GitS. The scene in question - not Cardeas getting shot, but what happens before that - is still probably one of my favorite scenes in all of Unicorn, by the way - other than the scene later on when Angelo gets ROFLstomped by the Destroy Mode Unicorn Gundam.

[Zeonista]

So far so good, I guess, although the succinct recap summary was more obvious padding than my first love's bra. Is it me or have a few extensions been added to scenes here and there? There are some backgrounds and some dialogue I honestly do not remember from the OAVs. Despite that, I was not expecting anything truly new until about episodes 6-7. The OP song seems a little weak for a Gundam opener, but the ED is really good.

[Dustman]

Another cut to the beginning of the next episode. This one was MUCH smoother. Anyway, how many episodes was the series that this replaced? If I'm remembering it correctly, I think it was 22? At the rate this is going, I estimate that this will end up having that number of episodes.

[zetatype]

Another cut to the beginning of the next episode. This one was MUCH smoother.

Though granted Sunrise just lucked out this time since the begininng of OVA 3 didn't really need any editing. What I'm really interesting in seeing is how they'll handle the transition from OVA 3 to OVA 4.

Anyway, how many episodes was the series that this replaced? If I'm remembering it correctly, I think it was 22? At the rate this is going, I estimate that this will end up having that number of episodes.

Yeah, Brave Beats had 22 episodes. Though how many Unicorn is getting is anyone's guess at this point. They have enough OVA material for about 20 episodes and if the average recap at the begining of each episode is 1 minute they'll have about 21 episodes without adding in any new animation.

While the lack of any new material so far is a bit disheartening the first two OVAs didn't really need any new material. The 3rd OVA is where significant stuff from the novels started getting cut. If Sunrise is planning on only adding new scenes where they are needed, OVA 3 is a good place to start. We probably won't get a good idea of Sunrise's endgame for Unicorn until the end of OVA 4.

[Dustman]

I think it's unrealistic to expect new material at this point. If I'm not mistaking on this matter either, what I recall hearing is that anime studios have to bid on network airtime like billboard advertisements. If Brave Beats was cancelled then they had a contract to fulfill which means that this is genuinely a last minute effort with no resource allocation. It really shows, too! The most we've had is a redrawn hand and an OP that uses stock footage and 3D models which obviously cut down on the amount of time that would have been needed to draw proportions frame by frame. The only NEW hand drawn footage we have at all is Sinanju twirling its forgotten accessory and swinging it at a static Unicorn.

I'm not sure that the OVA needed to be "remade" in the first place. At its core, that's wish fulfillment for fans who either demanded a more faithful adaptation or a more fleshed out and precise experience. I'm certainly the latter as I have complaints with how Episodes 4 and 5 were paced but my wish list was just for additional setting details like Side 3's role in the story, disclosure of Full Frontal's origin or more than just one scene with Banagher and Loni prior to their altercation at Torrington. The OVA is entitled to self-determination and I'm not too unhappy with the changes they came up with but some of them need something extra to not feel like a mid-series slump. You know, small things. The kind that would make the story feel more polished and definitive when measured up against the novel or manga. That's all.

[BrentD15]

I'm not sure that the OVA needed to be "remade" in the first place. At its core, that's wish fulfillment for fans who either demanded a more faithful adaptation or a more fleshed out and precise experience. I'm certainly the latter as I have complaints with how Episodes 4 and 5 were paced but my wish list was just for additional setting details like Side 3's role in the story, disclosure of Full Frontal's origin or more than just one scene with Banagher and Loni prior to their altercation at Torrington. The OVA is entitled to self-determination and I'm not too unhappy with the changes they came up with but some of them need something extra to not feel like a mid-series slump. You know, small things. The kind that would make the story feel more polished and definitive when measured up against the novel or manga. That's all.

I didn't really have a problem with the OVAs.
I know of people complaining about how the 4th one was handled, but I think think they managed to make it work out.

As to them being remade, I think it's a waste of time and resources.

[zetatype]

I'm not sure that the OVA needed to be "remade" in the first place. At its core, that's wish fulfillment for fans who either demanded a more faithful adaptation or a more fleshed out and precise experience. I'm certainly the latter as I have complaints with how Episodes 4 and 5 were paced but my wish list was just for additional setting details like Side 3's role in the story, disclosure of Full Frontal's origin or more than just one scene with Banagher and Loni prior to their altercation at Torrington.

That is pretty much the same camp I'm in. And the beauty of it is that this is all pretty much dialogue focused stuff and would probably be easier to animate compared to new mobile suite battles. I don't think it would be unrealistic to expect new material like this and even though Unicorn is OVA quality I'd like think Sunrise could crank out 20 minutes worth of new material in a single cour (3 months). To me its less of an issue of having the resources and instead whether or not Sunrise thinks its worth making new scenes to supplement the existing OVA footage.

[Dustman]

The thing about resources has nothing to do with money in this case, it's that Studio 1 is already extremely busy. They've been animating Thunderbolt and have evidently been working on a Reconguista movie as well. I don't think they have the time to coordinate between three major projects at once. I'm also quite certain that Sunrise values Studio 1 as a prestige division so I don't think they are all that willing to overwork them the way they have to with everybody else. After all, this thing is going to run for half a year. That still requires a regular staff.

For example, some of the things you'd need to plan the production for this show include storyboards for determining the arrangement of footage and where to insert new scenes, scheduling for voice over sessions and a sound director to work on editing the BGM. You also need a project director to organize it and there's no way they're getting Kazuhiro Furuhashi on such short notice so creative decisions are limited. Logistically, the best solution you could come up with for recording new dialogue like what we've suggested, without having to worry about burdening the animators, would be recording over stock footage. Unfortunately, from what I hear about GGG FINAL: Grand Glorious Gathering, this method is less than optimal to the overall pace of the story.

On that note, I'm 100% positive that we have Shuuichi Ikeda's narration at all because they were able to record it during sessions for The Origin. The line readings must have also been right at the end of a session with minimal takes since the poor guy is having so much trouble breaking character as 'Young' Casval and seems to be getting increasingly raw in his diction. *rubs chin* Hmmm... come to think of it, recording on Origin's schedule may also explain how they had an engineer on hand for those clips but not for something as important as scoring a proper transition between the first and second Unicorn OVAs. That makes sense. Anyhow, my point is that even new dialogue is easier said than done :p

Well, even if it's cheap, at least timeslot filler like this is still better programming for the kids watching it than other things that could be replacing it!

[Imperial]

Well, even if it's cheap, at least timeslot filler like this is still better programming for the kids watching it than other things that could be replacing it!

What makes you so sure?

Unicorn is a pretty terrible series. It wouldn't be difficult to one-up with another show.

[Dustman]

What a lovely sentiment. I confess that I indeed don't hold that kind of certainty. At least, not of the variety that should implicitly dismiss and condescend to the prospective experiences of the young fans that this series may court as being incorrect and undesirable.

Children are not stupid but they also don't share your standard. Just as Wing had done for a generation of Western Gundam fans, a series like Unicorn that at least feigns sophistication (like I do) has every means of expanding horizons and providing an adequate challenge. I earnestly believe that there is value in exposing children to calculated nonsense if it's ambitious, over letting them subsist solely on the truly commercial wasteland of the latest Beyblade or Duel Masters spinoff.

And if you don't like Unicorn serving that purpose, well then... they probably won't be watching it anyway so who cares. It's no skin off Sunrise's wallet.

[Imperial]

Have I struck a nerve?

Gundam is perfectly commercial. It's a great, big toy advertisement with a layer of dialogue drizzled over that's meant to sound reflective and thought-provoking. War is bad. Don't do it. Pretty straightforward message and one the Gundam series has been peddling for a long, long time.

Is it good to teach children that violence doesn't solve all problems? I think so, but it all rings so very hollow when Banana and friends solve their problems by pulling out a bigger stick. It's the same problem most war movies or TV series have. Don't do this flashy, spectacular thing.

Unicorn is self-indulgent. Don't make war, but let's give war a big, loud spectacle. Let's pretend to have a DEEP and IMPORTANT message, but let's splatter it with toyetic designs and an idea rooted in new age notions of expanding your consciousness because we are living in an age of aquarius.

Does this make Unicorn a total waste of space? No, not really, but you're putting it up on a pedestal without much reason. It's every bit as sugary, shallow anime fluff as anything else the kids could be guzzling down.

[Dustman]

Have I struck a nerve?

I'm not going to continue this in public. What we have is a collision of subjective thought and I fear that further provocation runs the risk of competitive posturing. What you've said has indeed struck a nerve and I wish to resolve this amicably but I can't do so without making myself vulnerable and that is the kind of thing to selectively divulge in private.

All further comment I have to give in this thread is that I don't believe I was wrong in having an immediate emotional response and for holding sentimental value for a series like this. But I AM at fault for senseless passive aggression. I try to hold myself to a higher standard than that and I will make every effort to represent myself better in the future.

[Deacon Blues]

Children are not stupid but they also don't share your standard.

Children are, sadly, often times stupid. Some are and some aren't. That being said, there are many who also share his sentiments towards Unicorn.

Just as Wing had done for a generation of Western Gundam fans, a series like Unicorn that at least feigns sophistication (like I do) has every means of expanding horizons and providing an adequate challenge.

Don't feign sophistication. Just don't. You really cannot compare Wing to any of this at all. Unicorn at its core was a way to pull back the hardcore original fans... ones who would instantly recognize all of the older designs from back in the early, formulative years. The novel series was wrote with adults in mind, not children. This re-imagining of a television series is an attempt to somehow appeal to them. Whether it is working remains to be seen.

I earnestly believe that there is value in exposing children to calculated nonsense if it's ambitious, over letting them subsist solely on the truly commercial wasteland of the latest Beyblade or Duel Masters spinoff.

You really don't get that Gundam is around to sell Gunpla and what not, do you? That's the gimmick for all of these shows: the series can be a flop but if they sell the kits they make the money.

[Dustman]

Children are, sadly, often times stupid. Some are and some aren't.

For me, this discussion isn't actually about Unicorn. Accordingly, I'll disregard the other half of this statement. As for this part about children, I don't believe what you're saying to be entirely accurate. We should never mistake formative development for an inherent lack of intellect. Children are not stupid, they are learning and they learn by what is provided for them. In the grand scheme of things, Gundam Unicorn is not the worst thing that they can be exposed to. It simply isn't.

Don't feign sophistication. Just don't. You really cannot compare Wing to any of this at all.

I'm sorry I made that awful quip. I'm every bit aware that while I try to express myself as eloquently as I can, there are obviously going to be people who will hate me for it and think that I am a self-absorbed snob. I'm very self-conscious about it. It's an awful neurosis but I wanted to punish myself for that and to infer that I have a sense of humility, especially if I was making fun of a cult favorite like Wing.

As for Gundam Unicorn being the antithesis of a gateway series, I think that its praise among more mainstream, modernly-oriented otaku is evidence alone that the series is not exclusionary. In fact, I think it is far more appealing to people who aren't hardcore fans of the original saga. For new fans being introduced to the the Universal Century, there is far less that feels like a repackaging of old ideas, the dialogues about Newtypes and the setting itself are obnoxiously self-explanatory and the fact that the story itself begins and ends on the terms of a conspiracy unrelated to its source material gives it the quality of an independent chapter rather than following the thematic interconnection of its predecessors.

You really don't get that Gundam is around to sell Gunpla and what not, do you? That's the gimmick for all of these shows: the series can be a flop but if they sell the kits they make the money.

Of course I understand that. The commercial aspect of Gundam is as real as the sky is blue and the clouds are white. But the thing that sets Gundam apart from other toy commercials like LEGO Ninjago is that even Gundam's most awful installments have made some kind of token effort to communicate a novel storyline. Some of them are ambitious, others are vapid. Some of them succeed, others fail spectacularly.

But even a show as mediocre and ancillary to its primary product as Gundam AGE (to its video game) was at least trying to do something interesting with multiple generations. Even a show as nakedly commercial as Gundam Build Fighters made itself humorous and even a show as bloated and disjointed as Gundam Wing was at least feigning sophistication. And in the case of Gundam Wing, it is that kind of pseudo-maturity that first set Gundam apart for me when I was young and is why I am arguing that a show like Unicorn, which is bloated and disjointed in its own ways and shares similar sentiments about ending war, should be able to broaden a child's horizons just like Wing did for me.

[Deacon Blues]

For me, this discussion isn't actually about Unicorn. Accordingly, I'll disregard the other half of this statement. As for this part about children, I don't believe what you're saying to be entirely accurate. We should never mistake formative development for an inherent lack of intellect. Children are not stupid, they are learning and they learn by what is provided for them.

Ah, but there is two groups: inquisitiveness and reckless stupidity. Example: kids purchasing chemicals from my store and attempting to make a "bomb" is just plain stupid. There's nothing about learning or formative development involved with that. They see what it does/how to do it in a YouTube video, get gooey eyed and try impressing their friends while clearly ignoring any risk involved despite almost everything telling them not to do it at all. It's the same with them sharing the Bernie Sanders glowstick meme as well, because I had them try and purchase ingredients for it from my store. But, I digress. Today's generation of kids are "stupider" than the ones I grew up with. They're a product of the technology shoved in their faces, but that's a subject for another day, really and has nothing to do with the crux of this thread.

I'm sorry I made that awful quip. I'm every bit aware that while I try to express myself as eloquently as I can, there are obviously going to be people who will hate me for it and think that I am a self-absorbed snob. I'm very self-conscious about it. It's an awful neurosis but I wanted to punish myself for that and to infer that I have a sense of humility, especially if I was making fun of a cult favorite like Wing.

I wasn't attacking you for that so you're more than welcome to express yourself however you see fit. However, a bulk of "fandom" here in the States seem to default to Gundam Wing with every argument due to the popularity of the series and the subsequent failure of series thereafter. It's just like all the riffraff about IBO coming to Toonami...

As for Gundam Unicorn being the antithesis of a gateway series, I think that its praise among more mainstream, modernly-oriented otaku is evidence alone that the series is not exclusionary. In fact, I think it is far more appealing to people who aren't hardcore fans of the original saga. For new fans being introduced to the the Universal Century, there is far less that feels like a repackaging of old ideas, the dialogues about Newtypes and the setting itself are obnoxiously self-explanatory and the fact that the story itself begins and ends on the terms of a conspiracy unrelated to its source material gives it the quality of an independent chapter rather than following the thematic interconnection of its predecessors.

Well, that's where the battle between the old fandom and the "newer" fandom begins, which is probably why some of us older fans have a few glaring issues with it. It's exactly how you described it: an "independent chapter" that fabricates a perpetual "curse" propagated over the entire course of all major series without so much as a nod in between. But, to each his own when it comes to viewing. This is also why some of the fandom choose the novel or manga over the animated continuity.

But even a show as mediocre and ancillary to its primary product as Gundam AGE (to its video game) was at least trying to do something interesting with multiple generations. Even a show as nakedly commercial as Gundam Build Fighters made itself humorous and even a show as bloated and disjointed as Gundam Wing was at least feigning sophistication. And in the case of Gundam Wing, it is that kind of pseudo-maturity that first set Gundam apart for me when I was young and is why I am arguing that a show like Unicorn, which is bloated and disjointed in its own ways and shares similar sentiments about ending war, should be able to broaden a child's horizons just like Wing did for me.

I don't think that Unicorn will have that same sort of appeal. Wing had the five pilots going for it, so it was essentially a "something for everyone" kind of show (toss in the other characters and everything is rounded out nicely). Unicorn doesn't really have that same driving force behind it. The characters exist, but they don't really have a substance or backstory to them. Novel aside, the animation doesn't give any sort of backstory to the main characters really which sort of hurts its overall appeal to some. Then again, Stateside opinions (or those outside of Japan) don't really matter as it was a huge commercial success on its own, so that speaks for itself and ultimately coming full circle with this "re-airing" under the Re:0096 banner.

[Dustman]

To the first point, I'm sorry to say that I'm not following the course that this branch of the discussion has taken. Our perspectives on children are evidently based on our levels of personal involvement. I initially did not want to divulge this publicly as I didn't want to feel like I was weaponizing them or opening them to ridicule but I'm a little more comfortable now in admitting that I am in the position of assisting with childcare.

When I talk about children, the developmental stages, how to teach them and what media to expose them to, this is the source of my vested interest in the discussion. It's different when you share some level of responsibility for small children and have to provide for them, as opposed to engaging as a shopkeep with preteens and adolescents that are acting out. Granted, the kids I'm talking about are wonderful so that kinda skews the way I've generally talked about children but it's not like they don't misbehave either :p

Well, that's where the battle between the old fandom and the "newer" fandom begins, which is probably why some of us older fans have a few glaring issues with it. It's exactly how you described it: an "independent chapter" that fabricates a perpetual "curse" propagated over the entire course of all major series without so much as a nod in between. But, to each his own when it comes to viewing. This is also why some of the fandom choose the novel or manga over the animated continuity.

This cuts more to the heart of what I am discussing. I chose Gundam Unicorn as their introductory series one night while babysitting. I chose it because it had a manageable duration, the entry curve wasn't too steep for the very reasons we've identified and because I felt that the general themes and tone of the series were appropriate to their personal levels. Also I had yet to see the English dub so that was a good excuse for it. Political babble notwithstanding, the fact that it's based in positive messaging does determine its accessibility.

These are children who are no more than 10 years old. They have none of the preconceptions that adults like you or I would have. And they ate it up like candy. They asked to see more of it and began taking an interest in the original Gundam as well. Even dumb things like how Loni was adapted were experienced by them in a very pure and visceral way. It was really eyeopening.

To be honest, I had more fun bonding with the kids over this show than I ever had watching it on my own. Even though I have my reservations with it on an intellectual level, I feel as though I understand it differently after that and it's opened the door to watching more Gundam with them. Just wait until I can show them Gundam Build Fighters now that the R1's are coming with the Animax dub. Next thing, they'll be asking for gunpla this holiday season!

I don't think that Unicorn will have that same sort of appeal. Wing had the five pilots going for it, so it was essentially a "something for everyone" kind of show (toss in the other characters and everything is rounded out nicely). Unicorn doesn't really have that same driving force behind it. The characters exist, but they don't really have a substance or backstory to them. Novel aside, the animation doesn't give any sort of backstory to the main characters really which sort of hurts its overall appeal to some. Then again, Stateside opinions (or those outside of Japan) don't really matter as it was a huge commercial success on its own, so that speaks for itself and ultimately coming full circle with this "re-airing" under the Re:0096 banner.

I know it's really difficult at this point to say so as if this were always my intent, but I never tried to argue that Re:0096 should or ever will be the next big thing for the children watching it on Sunday mornings. All I've said is that as far as cheap filler goes, it's an interesting choice that could expose kids to storytelling that is a lot more nuanced and ambitious than what they might typically get on that timeslot. It's more than likely that they'll just overlook it but that opportunity is a nice one to have. (I used LEGO Ninjago as an example before specifically because that's the kind of modern programming that the kids - and myself by extension - are subjected to normally.)

As far as character background goes, it's not like Wing had a whole lot of that to begin with either. Endless Waltz was Sumizawa's apology tour for not being able to do his origins arc. He felt so bad about it that he also wrote a one-shot companion manga and half of Frozen Teardrop is a dedicated flashback! And you know what, it didn't bother me one iota as a child and I don't think that'll cause concern for the children watching Unicorn. Kids are very "in the moment" by nature and they are more likely to be entertained by Banagher and Audrey as a couple. (I was secretly a Heero/Relena shipper back in the day... I know it's stupid. Don't judge me >_>)

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

War is bad. Don't do it. Pretty straightforward message and one the Gundam series has been peddling for a long, long time.

With few exceptions (like the 00 movie), that's not actually Gundam's message. It'd be more accurate to say that Gundam sees war as a necessary evil. Solving conflicts without fighting would be preferable, but that's not always possible, and opposing evil people with violence is better than rolling over and letting them have their way. Sometimes they try to have it both ways by making the main characters fight without killing (like the Gundam pilots in Endless Waltz, Kira in Seed/Destiny, and Banagher in Unicorn), but just as often the protagonists are perfectly willing to kill their opponents in order to win, as the alternative (not fighting, or losing the war) is worse.

This is actually a rather more nuanced message than "violence is bad", but that's why I prefer it. The message isn't black and white "war is wrong", it's more like "don't fight if you can avoid it -- and if you have to fight, make sure it's for a good cause".

Today's generation of kids are "stupider" than the ones I grew up with. They're a product of the technology shoved in their faces, but that's a subject for another day, really and has nothing to do with the crux of this thread.

I find this sentiment hilarious, because people have been saying it literally as long as there have been people. They've recovered writings from ancient Greece lamenting about how kids these days are stupid, lazy, and disrespectful of their elders. Thousands of years later, one wonders how we've made so much progress as a species when every generation is less intelligent, less dedicated, and less virtuous than the last.

[excalibur2008]

Sometimes they try to have it both ways by making the main characters fight without killing (like the Gundam pilots in Endless Waltz, Kira in Seed/Destiny, and Banagher in Unicorn),

Which when you think about just seems to send the message of peace through superior firepower is kind of creepy.

[monster]

I find this sentiment hilarious, because people have been saying it literally as long as there have been people. They've recovered writings from ancient Greece lamenting about how kids these days are stupid, lazy, and disrespectful of their elders. Thousands of years later, one wonders how we've made so much progress as a species when every generation is less intelligent, less dedicated, and less virtuous than the last.

Intelligence aside, good parenting can help to make less than ideal children into better adults. And when people complain about stupidity, sometimes it's more about foolishness/lack of wisdom rather than an actual lack of intelligence, so that too can be resolved with good parenting and experience.

Which when you think about just seems to send the message of peace through superior firepower is kind of creepy.

Not really, as the time to go for a nonviolent resolution is usually not when violence is already being actively done. By then, it's usually better to wait for the violence to cease first, and one way to accomplish that may be through superior firepower from the less aggressive side, assuming it exists.

[excalibur2008]

Which when you think about just seems to send the message of peace through superior firepower is kind of creepy.

Not really, as the time to go for a nonviolent resolution is usually not when violence is already being actively done. By then, it's usually better to wait for the violence to cease first, and one way to accomplish that may be through superior firepower from the less aggressive side, assuming it exists.

I mean the fact that they tend to respond to war by attacking both sides, and sending the general message of end the war or be attacked. Which feels more like peace through fear of reprisals than an actual desire for peace.