Yuri and Yaoi

[Android raptor]

Thing is I was actually personally involved in various yaoi forums and such, and I can tell you a disturbingly large percentage of the active posters were like that. When it comes to actively participating in yaoi fandom sane fans are surprisingly rare, probably because the sane fans either don't post or have long left because of the nonsense and just enjoy yaoi stuff independantly.

I've also witnessed some nonsense IRL at cons and heard many a horror story. For a while these paddles that said yaoi on them were super popular, however they're now universally banned at all US cons (at least) because apparently people kept going around smacking strangers with them without asking. Even Yaoicon, which is an 18+ con, had to ban them.

Anime Weekend Atlanta used to have this panel called Yaoi After Dark which was pretty much the panel equvelant of a wet fart. Half of it was just squeally girls lining up to get smacked on the butt with a paddle and the rest were games and whatnot of varying levels of creepiness. I'd pop in briefly just for the train wreck effect (especially if I was drunk) but even then could usually only stand like 30 minutes of it. Thankfully the current yaoi panel is just laughing at bad series and usually degrades into a con horror stories panel a couple hours in anyway.

I think part of why yaoi fandom is so bad is because its full of immature girls who are basically unsupervised, who in turn encourage each others bad behavior and craziness. Combine that with the fact that girls don't get the messages boys do about not being creepers, and you have a disaster waiting to happen.

[Henyo]

BUT, it just occurred to me that Bakemonogatari has an out-lesbian character (Suruga Kanbaru). Not necessarily progressive, given that her other habits made her again somewhat abnormal (e.g. packing, literally, her room with yaoi erotica), but she was relatively positively depicted as an ally (and - note - not a love-interest) of the protagonist, and to my understanding never shifted her preference from women.

The great thing about that is they didn't play coy or did any ambiguous yuri baiting. Suruga says flat out to Koyomi's face "I'm a lesbian."

since you mentioned erotica i will mention the sono hanabira ni kuchizuke o OVA. good tasteless yuri.(and one of the few adult OVA's that pure yuri.)

Tasteless? I think that OVA is incredibly tasteful and sweet. I like it quite a bit.

Shoujo Sect - Innocent Lovers is another one that's pretty decent.

tasteless in the sense that the couple is already together.(IIRC it starts with the confesion scene.)
but otherwise yeah it is sweet.

ah Shoujo Sect. the manga where i learned the name of the person who has the longest name in the world. too bad the OVA didn't had a more solid ending.

looked up the Level C...Character designs reminiscent of Pre-Tsubasa CLAMP art.

that "Pure" talk is scary..Yuri-ism has the Motto "the Purest form of love." i never get it to my head though. i like Het pairings as much as i like Gay ones.(although at the moment, i'm limited to Shion X Nezumi at the BL side.)

[MrMarch]

I definitely remember that kind of stuff back in the day; the one that always got me was the specific subset of yaoi fandom who claimed that homosexual relationships were inherently superior to heterosexual ones, because they didn't have things like biology and "breeding urge" to get in the way of their emotions and therefore they were more "pure".

What...the...bloody...hell?

I've never even heard of that. I mean, naturally, I've heard the old stereotype that gay relationships enjoy an equality that hetero relations lack (which does have some basis in fact, though NOT for the reasons or extent uninformed people "think" they do), but this "gay is pure" love thing is a distrubing stereotype I've never heard. I become REALLY worried whenever I hear that word "pure" to describe ANYTHING about humanity.

Just when I think I've read about every dark corner of humanity, somehow there's pitch under a barrel I've yet to see upended.

[Android raptor]

Yep, their was actually this one girl who ran a terrible Gundam Wing fanfic site back in the day who was a bit notorious for always going on about how she thought m/m relationships were the only "pure" type of relationships. She actually banned fics that contained most het pairings from the series, yet still allowed rape, shota, abuse, etc (because apparently het is worse than those things) and was a huge misogynist, always bragging about how much she hated other women and how terrible she thought they were (I think she probably secretly hated herself too). It was pretty messed up.

Gundam Wing alone generated massive amounts of terrible yaoi fangirl antics. I recommend search LJ and whatnot for horror stories.

[Destiny_Gundam]

I've only encountered the gender swapped version: that the only true, pure love that exists is between two women. Because all men are just dirty minded rapists that only see women as a hole to put their dick in while women are perfect and innocent and are only in it for the love.

Extremists of any sort always harm the image of the whole.

[AmuroNT1]

AR: Yeah, I've been going to anime cons (AWA in specific, wewt) for long enough that I remember the Yaoi Paddles. Never saw any paddles actually being used, but they were generally treated as a sign to avoid the wielder like the plague. Considering some fans can't even be trusted with themselves (re: the banning of unsolicited glomps), I can't help but wonder who thought giving them blunt instruments was a good idea.

Also, not to labor the point, but for a long time I've felt that the vocal yaoi fans are a large part of the reason Gundam Wing gets disrespected (I will concede it has flaws, but I still find it enjoyable when all is said and done). While there's a lot more to the show than pretty boys, the way the fandom acts you wouldn't know it, which is part of what gets under my skin. If you dislike a show because of legitimate flaws like weak storytelling or under-developed characters, then that's fine; but hating something because of traits which it doesn't actually have is another beast entirely.

I will say though, the one thing the Wing yaoi fandom does that probably comes closest to actually angering me is the insistence that Trowa was raped by those soldiers from his Episode Zero backstory. There's no justification for that.

(Of course, GW fans can be pains in other ways...at last year's AWA, I attempted to invite Scott McNeil to appear on Gundamn, but couldn't get a word in edgewise because his panel was almost completely dominated by fangirls who wanted him to autograph their breasts, validate their Heero/Duo fanfiction, or ask him inappropriate questions like "How did you lose your virginity?". He handled it like a trooper tho. If you're wondering why I didn't ask elsewhere, he arrived late due to an incident at O'Hare and left early.)

Henyo, MrMarch: Yeah, I promise I'm not making up that whole bunk about "yaoi is more pure", as AR has attested. I've related that to my gay and bisexual friends and they just laughed, saying "We can be just as shallow as straight people sometimes."

Destiny_Gundam: This may be over-generalizing, but I think yuri fans tend to be mellower about this kind of thing because it ties in with the concept of moe, like the idea of two cute girls holding hands and snuggling rather than just having mindless sex.

[MrMarch]

Okay, after my initial shock and thinking about it I suppose I can see a little where they may be coming from. And I don’t want to go the easy route of attacking/dismissing the person because they have an opinion I don’t like. I’ll assume for a moment the person doesn’t have any more issues than most of the people on the internet or real life. Yes, I know that’s an insane standard, but just go with it

Perhaps these relationships in yaoi are so attractive because much like anime itself, they are far removed from reality. The fantastical is precisely what anime does so well. Real people and real relationships are fraught with trouble and complications. Especially for women, who get a raw deal. Anime is one of the best forms of escapism and yaoi might provide girls with an idealized version of gay male relationships, especially for most straight women who have no idea what makes a real gay male relationship. To young, impressionable people, that may be enthralling as an escape from reality and very entertaining. Some might take their fandom to extreme levels (like I’ve been accused of with my own website) and the result is this “pure love” thinking. Young, escapist and underprivileged...wouldn’t be the first time.

Even Jaden Smith will eventually grow out of being a 14 year old head case

And yes, I agree with Destiny_Gundam of the importance of not letting the vocal minority (or simply, the dramatic and headline-making minority) be set as the benchmark for ANY fandom, no matter how morally shocking. In all my years among the many entertainment fandoms, I’ve not met such a person, so I think that’s telling.

EDIT: AmuroNT1 No, I believe you. Or at least I've no cause not to. It actually makes sense to me in a twisted sort of way. I do appreciate the weirder things that we encounter in this off-the-radar fandom. Anime is never boring.

[Android raptor]

AmuroNT: I remember Scott McNeil being at AWA, however I never got the chance to see his panels. That's appauling to hear what happened at that one, though. I would've probably punched one of those girls doing that nonsense.

I absolutely think that a huge chunk of UC fan disdain has its origins with them trying to distance themselves from the awfulness of the Wing fandom. As someone who was around back in the day, I can tell you if you liked anything with Gundam in the name you were subject to the craziness of the Wing fandom no matter what, plus the fact that in mainstream anime fandom Gundam equalled Gundam Wing thus Wing would be brought up instantly if you tried to discuss Gundam outside dedicated UC-cenrltric forums. And with discussion of Wing came the crazies sooner or later, and that junk got old fast. Of course many took that annoyance way too far, but still.

I have a friend who got harrased out of a Gundam Wing cosplay group some years back for cosplaying Relena by college age girls (who were old enough to know better). While not all Wing fans, even Wing yaoi fans, are bad there still were/are enough out there that you'd encounter them eventually if you poked around the Wing fandom.

Wing was basically the Hetalia or Homestuck of its day in terms of size and craziness of the fans. Unfortunately some crazies have still stuck around after all these years even though most have long since moved on the other shiny things.

[AmuroNT1]

I will concede that Scott's panel was expressly meant to be an "After Dark", 18+ panel. However, I attended it because a few years earlier, Travis Willingham had hosted such a panel and it was incredibly entertaining because he was half-drunk and had no filter. Thus, I was expecting Scott to do the same thing and came away from it feeling like it was an utter waste of time. That man has to have the patience of a saint to put up with all that, but I suppose there are much worse fates than having too many fans.

Regarding your friend who cosplayed Relena, that's unfortunate but all too common. I actually met my first girlfriend because we both did did Wing role-playing on AOL back in the day, and I was the first person who didn't turn her away for RPing Relena (and from what she said, most of the time those rejections were quite rude). As a fan of the character, it makes me happy that she's been getting more respect and love in recent years.

[Henyo]

okay, now i'm scared..really scared. one question though, are those stories mostly about Fujoshis? what about the Fudanshis? are they less scary or are they on the same level?

Genshiken Nidaime's Hato. he's a straight guy(AFAIK, anime only.) who gets turned on with BL. and he cross dresses. your thoughts?

[Android raptor]

Considering how many yaoi characters just look like flat chested women that supposedly have penises, I'd say being turned on by yaoi isn't necsesarily something that invalidates being primarily attracted to women. Heck, i think one of the factors that helps fuel the misogyny of some crazy yaoi fangirls is them being attracted to women but being in denial of it. Certainly the attraction to characters that are virtualy indistinguishable from feminine women made me, uh, realize things about myself.

[Henyo]

i should slap myself. we got to 4 pages and i haven't mentioned Ikuhara works.
have you watched any of them? what are your thought?

i haven't finished Penguindrum yet. but i'm fine with spoilers so fire away!

[AmuroNT1]

It does bug me how Ikuhara will mess with an original story just to push his fondness for yuri, best seen with the original Sailor Moon where he made Tuxedo Mask completely useless (and wrote him out as often as possible) because he preferred Moon and Mars as a couple. It doesn't matter the context, directors shouldn't change stories to suit their personal preferences.

[Android raptor]

I haven't seen any Ikuhura stuff other than Utena, but let me tell you that series is life changing. By far, one of the most important anime series of all time. Its definitely a very cerebral watch, but highly worth it IMHO.

That said you absolutely have to watch the entire series to get the most out of Utena. Many people drop it after the first story arc because it kinda just comes off as a slightly weird schoolgirl slice of life series, but that's a mistake. If anything, the first story arc lulls you into a false sense of security before the true nature of the show is revealed. Plus the ending is just...perfect.

I could go on for days, that's how much I love Utena.

[Henyo]

It does bug me how Ikuhara will mess with an original story just to push his fondness for yuri, best seen with the original Sailor Moon where he made Tuxedo Mask completely useless (and wrote him out as often as possible) because he preferred Moon and Mars as a couple. It doesn't matter the context, directors shouldn't change stories to suit their personal preferences.

so that's why Tux became a male damsel in distress. does that mean Rei gained more scenes?
also, have you seen Ikuhara as Sailor Mars?(with Nagano as Sailor Venus.)

i wonder what those extreme yaoi and Yuri fans think of Utena. i mean, it caters to both sides.

as for myself, i like really like Utena all of its symbolism. the movie saw Ikuhara lower the subtlety of Yuri in his works. then came Yuri Kuma Arashi. this one has no subtlety whatsoever.

[AmuroNT1]

The movie also had people turning into cars, not for any symbolic reason, but because they really wanted to see pretty girls turning into cars.

[Android raptor]

The cars do actually mean something as Utena was Anthy's ride out of Ohtori.

That said if you all haven't the TV series you need to, as its the best version of Utena IMHO.

[Henyo]

i've watched the TV series. i liked it and the Movie both. is the dub serviceable? it has Crispin Freeman so i want to rewatch it in dubbed form.

on another topic:
My Little Pony
Legend of Korra
and more recently, Steven Universe.

these three cartoons are known for their Yuri. what're your opinions on these series?(just starting to watch SU thanks to ANN and my supplier.)
and also, there's no Yaoi equivalent for cartoons huh?

[MrMarch]

I've heard mention of Steven Universe many times now. Everyone keeps telling me that as an anime fan, i should be watching Steven Universe. I have to make time to check this series out.

[AmuroNT1]

The shows aren't really KNOWN for their yuri per se...Korra and SU got as close as they could to having gay relationships on-screen and people kind of blew it out of proportion. Someone I know tried to get me into SU simply by showing the clip that suggested one character was gay, as if that was all it would take to get me into the show. As for MLP, I imagine it's in the same boat as Touhou and Kantai Collection, where there's a lot more yuri shipping because the cast is overwhelmingly female.

As for the actual shows...I really have no opinion. The only Avatar I watched was a few episodes of the original and they were pretty good, but I never cared to pick it up. As for MLP, I respect the show's staff for the hard work they put in, but the way the fandom tries to shoehorn it into everything (and vice-versa) gets on my nerves way too much. I don't have much interest into watching any of the three, moreso because I just don't watch much TV anymore than any other reason.