Yuri and Yaoi

[Android raptor]

I haven't seen Macross Frontier or Tiger & Bunny so I don't have opinions on those characters. I remember hearing speculation that Fire Emblem was non-binary, but I haven't seen the series so I have no opinions either way.

I've pretty much given up on finding good yaoi series, both due to lack of interest and due to how awful the genre usually is. That said I'm always up for hilariously awful stuff. I know theres one that features invisible, glowing penises but I can't for the life of me remember what it was.

I should probably check out Iczer. I hear Cross Ange also has lesbians and is a fun though ridiculous series.

[MrMarch]

Android raptor
IMO, no representation at all is the worst possible outcome. That's what entertainment was like 20-30 years ago. That's reasoning into a circle that lands upon an all-too-familiar and discriminatory status quo. One that's been used to justify far too much tragedy. This is a cycle that needs to be broken. I'd rather folks stumble, fall and fail repeatedly than not try at all.

Henyo
I think Bobby in Macross Frontier is definitely more ill-intentioned caricature than a progressive - or even just a respectable - character. But the problem with Bobby might not actually be sexual in nature, but more a problem with women in anime. The "Bridge Bunnies" – despite some progressive elements as females in positions of authority – were also exploitative. They remain so (to varying degrees) even to this day. Bobby is male and gay, but he is functionally a bridge bunny. But instead of eye candy for the young straight male, he is an object to be laughed at. At best, comedy relief; at worst, someone to be mocked for his stereotypical gay flamboyance.

Having said that, Bobby certainly has a strong personality. He’s more memorable than much of the other bridge staff, even second Lieutenant Catherine Glass or Captain Jeffrey Wilder, both of whom are supposed to have more of a presence in the series. Bobby also has more enjoyable hero moments much like VB-6 Konig Monster pilot Canaria, which provides the audience a reason to respect and applaud these characters. So you take the good with the bad

[Henyo]

I haven't seen Macross Frontier or Tiger & Bunny so I don't have opinions on those characters. I remember hearing speculation that Fire Emblem was non-binary, but I haven't seen the series so I have no opinions either way.

I've pretty much given up on finding good yaoi series, both due to lack of interest and due to how awful the genre usually is. That said I'm always up for hilariously awful stuff. I know theres one that features invisible, glowing penises but I can't for the life of me remember what it was.

I should probably check out Iczer. I hear Cross Ange also has lesbians and is a fun though ridiculous series.

definitely check out those two series. Iczer also has Oobari animating the robots. so that can be considered a plus for mecha fans. Cross Ange, ato use the words of a friend, is a turn off your brain and enjoy the ride kind of series. also, Ange coud give DokiDoki PreCure's Aida Mana in Harem Queen. she's attracted men and women.(granted only two of the former.)

and what does non-binary mean? i'm pretty much stuck on the Yuri side so this is the first time i've heard of the term.

from the reviews i glimpsed. DRAMAtical Murder kind fits the bill for hilairousl awful stuff.
i also get that feeling from Love stage(read the Manga VOl 1 review. kinda okay-ish for me.)

Ai no Kusabi - An ANN review states it has Interesting Story, Good Character designs. and actual gay sex.

as for the glowing Pns..the first thing that came up is Daiakuji(pardon. i had to get that out of my system. )

@MrMarch
i see. i also found Bobby enjoyable. He's gay, but has given up in the love game.
Shirai Kuroko from the To aru series could learn a thing or two from him. take a different approach girl! and one that ain't shady or forceful.

[Destiny_Gundam]

I haven't seen Macross Frontier or Tiger & Bunny so I don't have opinions on those characters. I remember hearing speculation that Fire Emblem was non-binary, but I haven't seen the series so I have no opinions either way.

You should at least watch the 2nd Tiger and Bunny movie. Fire Emblem is normally portrayed as your typical over the top gay guy, but the movie delves into his past and his struggles with his identity and non-acceptance of those around him.

and what does non-binary mean? i'm pretty much stuck on the Yuri side so this is the first time i've heard of the term.

Binary is male or female, so non-binary is more than just those two options. Fire Emblem considers himself gender neutral.

[MrMarch]

@MrMarch
i see. i also found Bobby enjoyable. He's gay, but has given up in the love game.
Shirai Kuroko from the To aru series could learn a thing or two from him. take a different approach girl! and one that ain't shady or forceful.

Well, I think Bobby has given up in relation to Ozma, for whom he is content to adore in chaste admiration. But I hope the point of that part of Bobby's character was NOT to imply Bobby had given up on "all" relations with other men, because that is really disturbing! That would imply the only reason Bobby is accepted by his fellow SMS officers is because he's socially categorized as "safely asexual", which sends a horrifying message to gay folks

[Raikoh]

You gotta keep in mind that in terms of equality in general, Japan is decades behind the rest of the world. It's a society of people living in boxes, labelled "Westerner", "gay", "salaryman" and the like, and not staying in your box is a bit of a social faux pas. They expect homosexuals to conform to the stereotypes - even, for example, eunuch actor Kaba-chan who came out in the early 2000s is typecast in flamboyant roles.

At the same time, Japan is very fast and loose when it comes to sexuality. It's no secret that Japanese media compared to American media is far more sexual, and oftentimes there's a lot more homoerotic subtext. That may have something to do with other ideals of youth. While I'm not sure if the "bromance" is to be expected (though feudal Japan had plenty of homosexuality a la ancient Greece and that may have spilled over into their society more than other modern societies), many Japanese don't think twice about girls in middle to high school years going through phases of "romantic friendship" with other girls as practice for when they start romances with men.

I think this is why schoolgirl series always have an element of yuribait to them even when practically no adult women in anime have the same treatment (if they have a romantic element to their character it's almost always either a husband or a Christmas Cake situation). Someone like Bobby or Leeron is probably the most progressive we'll get any time in the near future. Or the standard subtext eventually getting so omnipresent it's obvious like Nanoha/Fate or Kazuki/Soushi.

[MrMarch]

Well, that's not quite as bad as I'd feared for the individual, but it is a terrible way of preventing homosexuality from ever being "normalized" by categorizing gay people to behave in a stereotypicaly outrageous manner.

I'd hesitate to label Japanese media as "more sexual" than the United States simply because describing it in that manner implies the United States is some kind of norm when it comes to sexuality in society. It's actually the exact opposite, in that most of the world views the US as an incredibly prudish and backward exception respect to healthy sexuality, yet a soceity that is also disturbingly comfortable with violence.

Lastly, I believe it's always been far more acceptable in ANY country for girls/women to indulge the natural human flexibility toward sexuality than it is for boys/men. Not only because women are by default more sexually flexible than men, but because of gender roles. Historically, men are the aggressors in relationships (yes, I realize there are exceptions, just generalizing). In most societies, men are the pursuers and women are the pursued. Female homosexuality doesn't threaten this norm. Men fall outside of the range of lesbian attention. Those women being pursued by lesbians are still acting within their social roles, they're simply being pursued by another woman instead of a man. However, male homosexuality does threaten the norm. Male homosexuals are pursuing other men, which means that these men find their role has changed. They're being pursued rather than doing the pursuing. This role reversal undermines the overall system. Hence, most societies find male homosexuals far more threatening to the status quo than female homosexuals.

[AmuroNT1]

You gotta keep in mind that in terms of equality in general, Japan is decades behind the rest of the world. It's a society of people living in boxes, labelled "Westerner", "gay", "salaryman" and the like, and not staying in your box is a bit of a social faux pas. They expect homosexuals to conform to the stereotypes - even, for example, eunuch actor Kaba-chan who came out in the early 2000s is typecast in flamboyant roles.

Yeah, that's a fun example of how something can be progressive and not progressive at the same time. Kaba-chan is actually the first openly gay actor to appear in the Kamen Rider franchise, playing the donut shop owner in "Kamen Rider Wizard", but his character is still a goofy stereotype who cross-dresses and openly flirts with the title character (who just sort of takes it in stride because they've known each other for a long time).

That was followed the next year by "Kamen Rider Gaim", which had the first openly gay Rider (played by a heterosexual actor) who did provide some stereotypical comedy beats like falling head-over-heels for one of the other Riders, but was overall a very well-rounded and interesting character who became very popular with fans on both sides of the Pacific.

[Henyo]

You gotta keep in mind that in terms of equality in general, Japan is decades behind the rest of the world. It's a society of people living in boxes, labelled "Westerner", "gay", "salaryman" and the like, and not staying in your box is a bit of a social faux pas. They expect homosexuals to conform to the stereotypes - even, for example, eunuch actor Kaba-chan who came out in the early 2000s is typecast in flamboyant roles.

Yeah, that's a fun example of how something can be progressive and not progressive at the same time. Kaba-chan is actually the first openly gay actor to appear in the Kamen Rider franchise, playing the donut shop owner in "Kamen Rider Wizard", but his character is still a goofy stereotype who cross-dresses and openly flirts with the title character (who just sort of takes it in stride because they've known each other for a long time).

That was followed the next year by "Kamen Rider Gaim", which had the first openly gay Rider (played by a heterosexual actor) who did provide some stereotypical comedy beats like falling head-over-heels for one of the other Riders, but was overall a very well-rounded and interesting character who became very popular with fans on both sides of the Pacific.

so what does this say when Kaba-chan's character became the new Bishoujo Kamen Poitrine?

BRAVO! i so like Bravo. he's gay. he bakes cake. he's A Durian rider. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, FABULOUS!(even struck Joseph Joestar's most famous JOJO Pose.)

going back to anime. Satou Sei of Maria-sama ga miteru is one of those characters whose obviously lesbian and yet isn't called as such by other characters. once she got to university she cut her hair short and started to wear more masculine clothes.

But I hope the point of that part of Bobby's character was NOT to imply Bobby had given up on "all" relations with other men, because that is really disturbing! That would imply the only reason Bobby is accepted by his fellow SMS officers is because he's socially categorized as "safely asexual", which sends a horrifying message to gay folks

going with this, i'm beginning to think that there aren't many "second love" stories for gay characters in anime. one example i could name out of the bat is Strawberry Panic's Hanazono Shizuma.
another is the aformentioned Sei is the closest, with all the subtext she has with Marimite's main character.

[AmuroNT1]

Well, given that we only really see the Macross Quarter when it's being attacked by mysterious aliens, maybe Bobby was simply pragmatic enough to put his love life on hold so he could focus on making sure that everyone stayed alive.

[Antares]

My personal experience of Japanese culture would agree with what has been said before: in terms of rights to sexual minorities, Japan has been lagging behind. Heck, there is still considerable pushback even against women who refuse the traditional housewife roles (which men, in turn, are pressured by their peers to force onto their wives). Equally Japan is permissible of "youthful experiments", where it's not shocking that when you go e.g. to university to you hook up with a same-sex partner (women, especially, for the same non-threatening reasons as mentioned in this thread, are tolerated), but the point is that they are expected to grow out of this phase and find a spouse, get married, have kids, the works.

There is a specific anime show (I'll forego naming it as ANN lists the series "Objectionable content" as "Intense"), for example, where the show's established lesbian protagonists still go weak at the knees at the sight of the antagonist male, which is "explained" by "his influence" over the protagonists. It is a good example of domestication for the pleasure of the male viewer.

Raikoh was quite right about the roles being clearly defined: a non-flamboyant gay would make no sense, because he could confused with a "regular" character. As such, the non-normal tends to be emphasized (often for comedic, i.e. non-threatening effect).

Though since anime and manga are directed to a younger demographic, there are strict laws defining what's appropriate or not. Grown men with loli sidekicks aren't allowed to get too gropy, for instance. So far progress, such as it is, had been made by banning suspect material.

But I'd like to think the tide is turning. More and more women are demanding the right to be recognized as independent and equal, and historically other minorities have been able to follow. I have no doubt that there might already be an existing sub-culture of more normalized gay and lesbian entertainment in Japan, but I think examples in anime, given the audience and the business side of it, would be quite rare. With manga you might have more luck, but I doubt much of the stuff gets translated.

[Destiny_Gundam]

(I'll forego naming it as ANN lists the series "Objectionable content" as "Intense")

That usually doesn't mean much. If it's pornography it would outright say it. Even if it was you're still allowed to name it, just don't link to it.

[Henyo]

There is a specific anime show (I'll forego naming it as ANN lists the series "Objectionable content" as "Intense"), for example, where the show's established lesbian protagonists still go weak at the knees at the sight of the antagonist male, which is "explained" by "his influence" over the protagonists. It is a good example of domestication for the pleasure of the male viewer.

lesbian protagonists....is it Mnemosyne?
I've read that it features tortures/death scenes that increase in intensity as the series goes.

whatcha think about this news guys?

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interes ... ced/.90849

[Antares]

That usually doesn't mean much. If it's pornography it would outright say it. Even if it was you're still allowed to name it, just don't link to it.

Weeeell ANN listed it as erotica, and although it pushed pretty much to the edge of that particular genre, it was never classified as hentai (which I wouldn't have advertised here at all). Anyway, Henyo got it already, so I'll just reiterate that it ain't t a series I'd suggest for its diversity.

BUT, it just occurred to me that Bakemonogatari has an out-lesbian character (Suruga Kanbaru). Not necessarily progressive, given that her other habits made her again somewhat abnormal (e.g. packing, literally, her room with yaoi erotica), but she was relatively positively depicted as an ally (and - note - not a love-interest) of the protagonist, and to my understanding never shifted her preference from women.

Regarding Henyo's link, that pretty cool. If the cultural space opens, then someone will look for making a buck out of it. And if it becomes financially viable, that in itself can work in favor of opening more cultural space. Like I said, I assume there is a market and a demand for more diversity even in Japan, but the mainstream servicing of that demand hasn't been very visible yet.

[Henyo]

That usually doesn't mean much. If it's pornography it would outright say it. Even if it was you're still allowed to name it, just don't link to it.

Weeeell ANN listed it as erotica, and although it pushed pretty much to the edge of that particular genre, it was never classified as hentai (which I wouldn't have advertised here at all). Anyway, Henyo got it already, so I'll just reiterate that it ain't t a series I'd suggest for its diversity.

BUT, it just occurred to me that Bakemonogatari has an out-lesbian character (Suruga Kanbaru). Not necessarily progressive, given that her other habits made her again somewhat abnormal (e.g. packing, literally, her room with yaoi erotica), but she was relatively positively depicted as an ally (and - note - not a love-interest) of the protagonist, and to my understanding never shifted her preference from women.

Regarding Henyo's link, that pretty cool. If the cultural space opens, then someone will look for making a buck out of it. And if it becomes financially viable, that in itself can work in favor of opening more cultural space. Like I said, I assume there is a market and a demand for more diversity even in Japan, but the mainstream servicing of that demand hasn't been very visible yet.

dayumn..Monogatari series...that one franchise i'm not ready to dive into(too mainstream.)
since you mentioned erotica i will mention the sono hanabira ni kuchizuke o OVA. good tasteless yuri.(and one of the few adult OVA's that pure yuri.)

we get into the action right off the bat.
gonna watch Strawberry Panic again. this time subbed by a different group. i watched the doremi sub twice already.

[Destiny_Gundam]

BUT, it just occurred to me that Bakemonogatari has an out-lesbian character (Suruga Kanbaru). Not necessarily progressive, given that her other habits made her again somewhat abnormal (e.g. packing, literally, her room with yaoi erotica), but she was relatively positively depicted as an ally (and - note - not a love-interest) of the protagonist, and to my understanding never shifted her preference from women.

The great thing about that is they didn't play coy or did any ambiguous yuri baiting. Suruga says flat out to Koyomi's face "I'm a lesbian."

since you mentioned erotica i will mention the sono hanabira ni kuchizuke o OVA. good tasteless yuri.(and one of the few adult OVA's that pure yuri.)

Tasteless? I think that OVA is incredibly tasteful and sweet. I like it quite a bit.

Shoujo Sect - Innocent Lovers is another one that's pretty decent.

[Android raptor]

Just looked up what the glowing invisible penis yaoi series is, its called Level C. From the sounds of it its a really terrible series, but possibly hilariously so. I'm gonna check it out on an evening when I have alcohol and nothing better to do.

There's actually a yaoi series with mecha called Legend of the Blue Wolves. I hear its actually decent, though has a scene that tends to make people a bit, er, uncomfortable (a guy gets his peen chopped off, but only because he was trying to rape the main characters' lover whom he'd also been sexually abusing throughout the entire series so its not like he didn't have it coming. Plus, a yaoi series that doesn't glorify rape and doesn't treat rapists as characters the audience is supposed to side with is always refreshing).

[AmuroNT1]

BUT, it just occurred to me that Bakemonogatari has an out-lesbian character (Suruga Kanbaru). Not necessarily progressive, given that her other habits made her again somewhat abnormal (e.g. packing, literally, her room with yaoi erotica), but she was relatively positively depicted as an ally (and - note - not a love-interest) of the protagonist, and to my understanding never shifted her preference from women.

The odd thing is, this actually kind of ties in with what I said a while ago about how the yaoi/yuri market is entirely cynical and profit-based. Japan has a generally negative view of yaoi fangirls, to the point where the nickname for them is "fujoshi", which is a multi-layered pun. The term normally refers to the rice that gets burnt and stuck to an electric cooker; the Japanese word for such a cooker, "okama", is a homophone for the word for a gay man. Thus, "fujoshi" not only means women who are "stuck on" gay men, but has the added connotation of their being "rotten" and useless, just like that burnt rice.

And of course, when yaoi fans are portrayed in common media, at best they'll be the subject of light pokes. More often you get cases like the one you mentioned, or the character from Durarara who admits that she writes slashfic about her real-life guy friends, much to their disgust.

Likewise, Nyaruko-san (a series I'm quite fond of) introduces such a fangirl in its second season, who wrote a yaoi doujin about the series' male lead. She spends the entirety of the season chasing him around like a starstruck fan, fantasizing about the order in which she'll get his handshake, autograph, and interview...when in reality, he's furious about being included in such a thing, burned the copy he could get his hands on (though that was also to keep it out of the hands of his harem), and would more than likely beat the crap out of her if he knew she was the author. Of course, the fangirl character comes off as a deliberate parody, gladly referring to herself as "rotten" and quoting lines from series like Genshiken ("There's nothing wrong with a girl who likes gays!").

[Android raptor]

To be fair, a lot of yaoi fans at least on the US end get up to some pretty ugly stuff. I already mentioned that the misogyny that goes on in yaoi fandom would make even the most misogynistic gamer dudebro blush (no lie, I've seen people whose dA galleries consisted of nothing but badly draw bishonen and drawings of women being violently tortured and killed just for being women), but there's also the harassment of people for liking different characters and pairings, calling people homophobes solely for not liking yaoi or even just a certain m/m ship (the Gundam Wing fandom back in the day was notorious for this), treating actual gay men as just objects for them to get off to and being seriously creepy, glorifying abuse, rape, and child molestation, and so much more.

I'm so glad I dipped out of organized yaoi fandoms before getting completely screwed up in the head (seriously it can be some head wrecking stuff, especially since there's so many young girls into whose brains and values are still developing).

[AmuroNT1]

The sad and sorry truth is, the most extreme members of a group are always the loudest, and they tend to color the perception everyone on the outside has for that group. It happens whether you're talking about serious matters like religion and politics, or more frivolous matters like fandom. Just as a for-instance, I'm sure everyone remembers hearing about how Naruto fans were nothing but little kids who wore their headbands to school, always talked crap about American comics and cartoons, and tried to perform Jutsus in real life, but can anyone here say they actually MET someone like that? I'm sure they existed, but they were by far the minority, and saner fans will always be quick to try and shut them down while apologizing and saying "We're not all like that."

The reason why the outlying "bad apples" in whatever fandom seem more prevalent than they really are is because the Internet makes it far easier for people to connect in general, and of course that includes even the loonies, who tend to congregate and form their own communities that all too often turn into echo chambers that only serve to strengthen their attitudes by surrounding them with people who have the same opinions.

I definitely remember that kind of stuff back in the day; the one that always got me was the specific subset of yaoi fandom who claimed that homosexual relationships were inherently superior to heterosexual ones, because they didn't have things like biology and "breeding urge" to get in the way of their emotions and therefore they were more "pure".