Fafner: Exodus

[LightningCount]

Spoiler

Not sure how I feel about the ending. The story is very much unfinished, but that may be addressed tomorrow. The second half of Exodus has been rushed in general, and that goes double for the final episode, yet even when this show is rushed, that pacing doesn't feel as detrimental as it would in almost any other show I can think of. I feel like we're still getting a thorough, well thought out and consistently interesting story, but on fast forward.

I liked a lot of what I saw in this final episode, but it really did feel like there should be more of it, not to mention the fact that there's no sense of finality. I love this franchise, but it's reaching the point where it needs to start wrapping things up, not put it off until another time-skip/sequel.

I'm waiting for a chance to watch 25 and 26 together, but...

Spoiler

Regardless, I already get the same kind of feelings you're talking about Areku. It's felt for a while like they had decided to just push through and make the second half the setup for a movie or OVA. The ambition of the ideas is what covers somewhat for the fast-forwarding, but at some point you have to wonder, "What's the rush?" If you can afford to extend this stuff into an OVA, or Movie, or sequel series every x-amount of years (and/or are going to do so anyway, as has been the case), why not treat all these great ideas with a little more patience? One thing that crossed my mind recently is how the Human Army characters seemed like pretty important characters early on, but then they just became "noise" in the background. I mean, Aishwarya Fein had this [ambiguous initial] death scene where she went out as if she was the equivalent of Rusty from Gundam SEED. The fact that they're resurrecting her for 25/26 as some sort of manipulation for Mitsuhiro is irrelevant, especially given how Mitsuhiro's been treated in Season 2. But I digress. I'm just a little surprised, because it does feel like this franchise falls back on itself to a never-ending "ellipsis" whenever it's built up momentum.

[Amion]

Wow, I never expected that twist! Who woulda thought that Rey Za Burrel in the Strike Freedom would've shown up at the last second. Funny, for some reason it looks uglier than I remember it.

It did feel rushed. Had some great moments, but rushed is indeed the verdict. I don't know what the announcement is, but I doubt it's a sequel series. If it is, I'll be surprised and I beleive the staff hoped for a potentially 50 episode story, and realized perhaps a little over half way in that it simply was not going to fly, so they decided to run with the safe option and grant us a little more closure than they did with the original Fafner.

Unlike the original we're in for a true sequel eventually, or at least movie OVA to finish everything off.

Spoiler

I guess the staff wanted us to go "ooh" and "aah" over how Draizen can do all those flashy things with its weapons. It's got more tricks than every other Fafner there combined, or at least passably stalemated. It's a shame all that mechanical Festum goodness came wrapped in the ugliest package I can imagine.

The design aside, I thought the final battle was interesting enough, just too quick.

Looking back from having rewatched Exodus, I get this feeling that the first and second halves were just too short. I agree that a 26 episode anime can be great, most shows might even benefit from a count like that. Exodus, however, was never one of those shows. It deserved to have its story spread out through a much larger span of time to develop all that it had going for it. The cast was too large, their relationships too real and complex to deserve the compress and concise treatment they got near the end. The battles were all too high-budget and perfect, even at their most low budget times. It would've been a waste and diservice to shaft the combat in lue of development and plot, which probably still would've suffered from the compression.

First and foremost is the ghost core. It needed more time to develop or be hyped. It's an interesting idea, even if it's been done before, and one that just got thrown out at us late in the game. Yes, we knew little Mr. Dilated Pupils was a key player, but we never really knew what he was or how he fit in until near the end, and it was something of a convoluted mishmash of mad science and Festum Physics. A slower reveal would have helped.

Lastly, Soushi being reduced to an infant was a bit much. It's not like we haven't seen this kind of thing multiple times this episode, but it just felt uncomfortable. Even if I took it as a yaoi pairing thing, which I still wouldn't approve of, it still would have left me feeling awkward, since it IS Soushi himself.

The reason is simple: we just said goodbye to him for the second time over, and then poof, back again to start his life over not a few minutes later. It really made the drama feel cheep and forced. Could we not at least have him reappear later? This is one plot point I would have preferred not have been in the ending, and instead be left ambiguous. It should have ended with Kazuki opening the cockpit of the Nicht, forcing us to guess as to what he found or didn't find.

Oh well. Cheers to one of the best mecha anime I have ever watched. It tripped near the end where Zeta Gundam continued to build momentum. Still, it managed to pull through and promise more to come, whatever that be. And I guess Z is often condemned for its lackluster final episode, but that's a matter to taste. I'll leave Exodus 26 to personal preference as well.

[Areku]

Spoiler

Lastly, Soushi being reduced to an infant was a bit much. It's not like we haven't seen this kind of thing multiple times this episode, but it just felt uncomfortable. Even if I took it as a yaoi pairing thing, which I still wouldn't approve of, it still would have left me feeling awkward, since it IS Soushi himself.

The reason is simple: we just said goodbye to him for the second time over, and then poof, back again to start his life over not a few minutes later. It really made the drama feel cheep and forced. Could we not at least have him reappear later? This is one plot point I would have preferred not have been in the ending, and instead be left ambiguous. It should have ended with Kazuki opening the cockpit of the Nicht, forcing us to guess as to what he found or didn't find.

Spoiler

It may seem like a little thing, but I think it would have worked much better if the final scene on the beach was with Kazuki, Soushi and Maya.

First off, let's talk about Soushi himself. I get the impression that infant Soushi is effectively a young clone of Soushi, not Soushi himself. You know, something close to what Orihime claimed to be, even though I don't believe her claim (wouldn't the scene where she enters the Coagula be the perfect opportunity for us to see Tsubaki's ghost?). I get this impression because in the scene on the beach, infant Soushi asks questions that heavily imply he doesn't have adult Soushi's memories. Also, Kazuki is holding infant Soushi's hand, giving the impression of a parent guiding a child. Did Kazuki and adult Soushi ever hold hands? I don't remember that ever happening. Extremely vague adult Soushi narration aside, all signs point to infant Soushi being a child created in Soushi's image, not the Soushi we've known up to now.

Okay, with that out of the way, let's explore why Maya could have made the scene better.

1. This is probably the reason that first comes to mind. The franchise has always placed an emphasis on Kazuki, Soushi and Maya as the three central characters, and there's been a love-triangle-esque relationship between them for a while. This new development with Soushi provides an interesting resolution to that relationship, with Kazuki and Maya acting as parents to infant Soushi. Kazuki and Maya don't necessarily need to display any romantic feelings toward each other for it to work, and their shared parental bond could still be believably dissolved if it's later revealed that there's more adult Soushi in infant Soushi than the show is letting on.

2. There have been some heavy metaphorical themes of existence and nothingness placed on Kazuki and Soushi. Interestingly, Kazuki represented existence, but was prepared to entirely sacrifice himself to foster understanding between human and festum, while Soushi represented nothingness and yet even in death, something very much like him remained behind. Further complimenting that taoistic theme of life and death is Maya, who has directly killed 15 humans (arguably 16, if you count Keith), being the only Islander we know of to kill any humans at all until Mizoguchi took out Billy. It would be poetic to see her raising human life, rather than taking it.

3. Combining those two points together, it would have given a better sense of story progression. It would have given the viewer a better sense that something actually happened during the time-skip, rather than the story merely time-traveling two years to bring us closer to the conversation with Altair.

[Dark Duel]

Well, most of anything I could possibly have said with regards to the conclusion to this series has been said already, but I do want to add one thing.

Spoiler

In my view, part of the problem with this second half of the series is the addition of the Mark Raison subplot, which felt - at least to me - artificial, tacked-on, and totally unnecessary. To me, apart from rehashing the "Neo-UN are bastards" thing that had already been made perfectly clear first in the original series, and in HoE, and again with Dustin and his band of murderers, it literally served no purpose. And since Barnes and the old hag fell back into whatever plot hole they crawled out of to begin with, and Mitsuhiro and Mk Raison are left floating around, there's no real resolution anyway.
So really all I can say about the entire subplot is that it killed off two characters I liked for absolutely no reason, only to stay there hanging and unresolved. Which is annoying as hell.
(Oh, and speaking of Dustin, I am a little annoyed at Billy grabbing ahold of the idiot ball here. I mean, I know he was his brother, but he was still a bastard who deserved what he got. Ask Hiroto.)

Apart from that, I don't really have a problem with the episode overall. Could it have been better? Yeah. But it's not that far off from what I expected to begin with, so while I'm not entirely happy with it, I'd call it at least satisfactory.
Now, one question:

Spoiler

The sequence in which Orihime reenters the Coagula is interesting to me, especially given the contrast between Orihime's reaction as compared to Tsubaki's earlier. Which I actually think strengthens certain theories about how Orihime was not entirely being honest about who and what she was, but that's a discussion I don't feel like getting into.
Now, as she stepped up, we saw two people there, one to either side of the Coagula. On the left was Akane Makable, quite clearly. But who the hell's the other one?

[Destiny_Gundam]

Now, one question:

Spoiler

The sequence in which Orihime reenters the Coagula is interesting to me, especially given the contrast between Orihime's reaction as compared to Tsubaki's earlier. Which I actually think strengthens certain theories about how Orihime was not entirely being honest about who and what she was, but that's a discussion I don't feel like getting into.
Now, as she stepped up, we saw two people there, one to either side of the Coagula. On the left was Akane Makable, quite clearly. But who the hell's the other one?

Spoiler

As Seri points out, Orihime always cries by herself. While Tsubaki broke down in tears when it was her time to go, Orihime bottled everything up.

Technically it was Mjolnir and not Akane that was there. The other was Saya Minashiro.

[Areku]

Spoiler

(Oh, and speaking of Dustin, I am a little annoyed at Billy grabbing ahold of the idiot ball here. I mean, I know he was his brother, but he was still a bastard who deserved what he got. Ask Hiroto.)

Spoiler

I thought it was entirely in character. Just rewatch the beginning of Ep. 3, he almost starts two fights through a mixture of ignorance and sheer stupidity, and the only thing stopping him is the intervention of his teammates. Now his brother's dead, and those same teammates encouraged him to shoot Maya with her own gun. He doesn't simply go along with it, though; not only does he hesitate while confronting Maya, but also while entering combat in the beginning of Ep. 26, having to psych himself up into seeking revenge. In the end, his experience and reason gave way to persuasion, emotion and stupidity. It was completely in character and, like almost everything in the final few episodes, a less-breakneck pace would have made it easier to swallow without having to analyze it.

Spoiler

As Seri points out, Orihime always cries by herself. While Tsubaki broke down in tears when it was her time to go, Orihime bottled everything up.

Spoiler

It could be argued that she cries in private as an effort to maintain her new stern persona. It could also be argued that Orihime isn't afraid of returning to the Coagula because deep down she knows she isn't going to die, something Tsubaki didn't know. Orihime's final words are "We will meet again;" while that could be metaphor, it could very well be a literal acknowledgement of Tsubaki's rebirth hiding in plain sight. I also think it's worth pointing out that between Kenji and Sui's experience in the Well of Urd, Akane/Mjolnir and Saya, and 16:36 of Ep. 26 (for Yumiko and Akira), we've seen the ghost of every significant Islander to die in the franchise, even including Mamoru's mom, Sakura's dad and all the unnamed pilots from RoL (except for maybe Yukie, I don't think I see her, but screw her anyway, does she even count as an Islander?). Meanwhile, Tsubaki's ghost has been conspicuously absent ever since Orihime left the Coagula, despite showing up earlier. Is she simply an exception because she's a core, or is it because she's now living on as Orihime?

And I'm not trying to dispute it, but how the heck does Seri know that Orihime always cries alone? Is it because she maybe-dreamed-maybe-didn't about it that one time?

[Amion]

Spoiler

I have to admit the evidence has bent in your favor, Areku, what with Orihime saying "we will meet again".

Of course, I always believed she was the entity Tsubaki, just with a different overall personality. It's not hard to believe, considering people can have multiple personalities. It's a disorder in normal people, but if Tsubaki is a being who is literally being reborn over and over, especially into differing circomstances, I don't see it as odd that her overall behavior would be legitimately different from Tsubaki. This might be a good thing. If her personality changes each time she is reborn, then they can erase (hopefully) the ego of core that wakes up with a twisted or warped personality. Or it could be a method of ensuring a being constantly reborn over and over doesn't eventually have a corrupted or warped thought process develop with time.

Counter to that last bit, Orihime was indeed markedly more jaded than Tsubaki. She seemed to recall what Tsubaki did, so there is the argument she just became tougher and less pleasant as her personality developed. If that's so, one must question what she'll be like when the Islanders return home.

As to Yukkie: screw her is right. She technically counts as an Islander, but so does Maya's dad. I don't think Canon or whoever would want Bartland hanging around with them. I know I wouldn't.

[Henyo]

while you guys get all philosophical, i'll get all HomoHomo.

Kazuki and Seri's farewell to their partners was so Homotastic. the only thing missing is bright pink backgrounds with flowers. although that would ruin the scene. ah, how i wish more Fafner Doujins would pop up online. my imagination and Yuri goggles can only do so much.

[Zeonista]

Watching 25 & 26 together as the Big Finish can only help. Watching the final round of heroic sacrifice & redemption was draining, as always. Boy, this show asks for so much emotional commitment! But that's a good thing, really, and it is a catharsis of epic level at times. And it was by Fafner standards a hearts-and-flowers-and-rainbows finish. Lots of hope for the future as always, but this time there is real hope.

That being said, I wouldn't mind an OAV or movie to neaten up the finish some, but that will likely happen if the anime remains as popular as it has been in the past.

[Vent Noir]

Just finished watching this, what with my trip to Japan and Christmas and such. Damn, what a ride! Really enjoyable show to watch (even if I did admittedly get confused at times), and now that it's over I'll need another show to try and scratch my mecha itch. I'll probably try and catch up with Heavy Object, and might give Iron Blooded Orphans another go (since I heard some female pilots finally shwoed up).

[Areku]

and might give Iron Blooded Orphans another go (since I heard some female pilots finally shwoed up).

Eh... If that's what's motivating you to give the show another shot, you'll probably be disappointed. Of the three, one has hardly had any screentime and another is fairly obnoxious (though she has gotten better since her debut episode). They aren't bad pilots, and there's a minor sideplot where they train the muscly Tekkadan boy how to become a better pilot. However, I think the fact that they're all part of a literal, explicitly-stated harem will rub you the wrong way.

- - -

Anyway, I've rewatched everything in the Fafner franchise over the past week, and I can say that I stand by my earlier reaction to the end of Exodus. Despite feeling somewhat cheated by Exodus' unnecessary non-ending and the Formula One pacing it took to get there, I still love this franchise and am looking forward to what comes next.

[LightningCount]

I watched 25 and 26 together, finishing up Exodus. I don't fully know what to say. From an objective point of view, it was an acceptable enough ending. But going on my feelings in a subjective manner, I think they kind of lost me a while back. I was indifferent and/or really frustrated about most of the conclusion.

As should be obvious, I really liked the journey of this series, especially Season 1...but I just don't think it maximized itself by the end. After such a long and complex journey with so many intricate characters, I feel like everything interesting was both rushed to be closed off and yet everything was also left with very little in terms of a resolution for a franchise that has a habit of leaving the door cracked. Most strikingly for me, I feel like the evolving Human Army story (which drove the freshness of Exodus early on) was blunted and put into the background, and the end result didn't get us much farther along than where we were at the end of the Heaven and Earth movie. Only a handful of episodes from Season 2 thrilled me, which means I've had mixed feelings of disappointment for a while. The thing with the anime business is, it puts creative people into impossible schedules and demands, so I have to give this whole project a lot of credit, regardless. But I can't say I was satisfied with the ending. It wasn't quite Gundam SEED Destiny by the end, but the old cast, particularly Soushi and Kazuki, kind of hijacked the plot to the point that everyone else's journey was made out to be sort of dull and trite, when they'd been through a lot themselves, and this series seemed to supposed to be a passing of the torch in a different manner than what it ended up being. I could touch on a lot of points to this regard, but I don't see the point in doing so. It wasn't as toothless as Majestic Prince's ending, but it wasn't too far from what Aldnoah.Zero ran with in terms of wrapping things up. (I have to say that Argevollen probably left me most "satisfied" in terms of giving both an "ending" and "non-ending," but then, it was a story that had more to do with ordinary soldiers, so it was easier for it to focus in.)

I will say this, though. "Life" and "death" in Fafner has become hard to parse out. It doesn't seem to matter if you're assimilated or shot with a laser. It hurts some of the story tension. Is there a spiritual message in all this? Because that seemed to become the major takeaway from this Exodus series more than anything else. If that was the whole purpose of the Fafner franchise, then this conclusion, even if sort of sloppy, serves well enough as the thematic close. Basically, broadly speaking, Festum came from the equivalent of heaven, and humans learned to become more like Festum, while the Festum became more like humans, absorbing pain, fear, etc. It's fascinating to see in this context. But I don't fully buy that that was the plan for this franchise. While I do think there was supposed to be a "middle ground" found, the endless "continuum" that seems to have formed seems to be a new-ish development. The central sci-fi conflict of the series seems secondary to this at this point, though. (The only Human Army characters left that matter are a Festum clone, the Old Woman, and maybe Burns...So where is the great emotional payoff in the conflict of uniting the Island and the outside world? What they quickly did to both Ai and Billy left me peeved, and neither Dustin nor Keith got the kind of REALLY dramatic final fights or character development they deserved in my mind. I could carry on with this, but I digress. At least Mitsuhiro got to note that he has a special-model Fafner now, too, which was some payoff for his earlier longings--but the price for that line in storytelling and character development was too high for me) So...thoughts on whether or not Fafner has moved away from resolving its central plot threads in order to tell a thematic story about life's continuum?

Anyway, frankly, I really think this just needed the 50-episode treatment; and now, the way things ended, I think that an OVA or Movie won't have the same kind of impact in the threads that remain.

[Areku]

So...thoughts on whether or not Fafner has moved away from resolving its central plot threads in order to tell a thematic story about life's continuum?

Ehmmm... Yes and no. The spiritual theme of "life's continuum" has always been present. Even back in the original series, Tsubaki, Kouyou and Akane/Mjolnir reflected this theme. Then in H&E, Misao's preservation and quasi-resurrection of Soushi, and possibly even Misao himself surviving the nuclear strike at the beginning of the movie, also reflected this. Additionally, this could apply, albeit in a metaphorical sense, to all of the Islander adults suffering from radiation sickness being sustained and rejuvenated by the Mir, as well as their insistence on clinging to a peaceful lifestyle steeped in tradition amid a world on fire. In that sense, D-Island was introduced as the embodiment of "life's continuum" before we were even introduced to the sci-fi conflict, barring of course the in media res of Ep. 1's opening. Heck, you could even argue that Orihime's existence (regardless of whether she's actually Tsubaki or merely retains her memories) exhibits "life's continuum" as well, though it wasn't readily apparent back in H&E.

That said, yes, it is certainly more pronounced now, possibly at the expense of screentime for the traditional sci-fi conflict. I was especially concerned around episodes 19 and 20, when it briefly looked like everyone might receive a Kouyou-style physical reincarnation, which would have had detrimental retroactive effects on the rest of the franchise, but fortunately that didn't happen. On that note, are you saying that the ghosts that appear in the last several episodes of Exodus are what's hurting the tension, or is it something else? If it's the ghosts, I would argue that there have been too few physical revivals to lessen the fear or consequence of character deaths. While I didn't think she'd actually die, I was definitely on edge when Maya initiated Fenrir (Nah, she'll be fine, they wouldn't, not yet... Oh no, that's what they want me to think, killing her off during the mission to rescue her is right up their alley! Uhh, maybe!), and Akira's death only increased my sentimentality for his character (I only began to like/sympathize with his character when he invited Walter to the Island). Also, I won't be remotely surprised if the ghosts are only around long enough to see the Island and its inhabitants safely through the main conflict, at the very least proceeding to a state where they're still present but no longer able to communicate with the living, or maybe just with Miwa.

Is the spiritual element playing a bigger role than was originally intended? Possibly, but there has long been enough groundwork laid to support it if was intended all along.

[Amion]

My feelings run similarly with you, Count, once again.

"If only there'd been fifty eps" is running through my head. It really feels like the story had more to it. My own personal experience with writing and cutting/rushing a story might be corrupting my thinking on this, but to me it resembles a show who's storyboard thought they had more time than what was ultimately given. Things like Ai's return that seem to have properly developed themes, but were rushed to seconds of screentime and relevance rather than be cut from the script.

Nothing was added hap-haphazardly, just fast-forwarded, as oft stated before, and doubtless will in the future. Maybe something happened to speed things up, maybe someone thought they weren't going to get a next time, popularity or not. It's a shame, and one of those mysteries that will never be solved. Perhaps around the second season the ones making the decisions decided to not take away from the ultimate story, just so they could at least give us the plot, even if they had to throw out the set up. Did it pay off? Yes, I believe, if we never get a sequel anime. Like Count, I don't believe an OVA or heavens, a movie, would be long or good enough.

[LightningCount]

So...thoughts on whether or not Fafner has moved away from resolving its central plot threads in order to tell a thematic story about life's continuum?

Ehmmm... Yes and no. The spiritual theme of "life's continuum" has always been present. Even back in the original series, Tsubaki, Kouyou and Akane/Mjolnir reflected this theme. Then in H&E, Misao's preservation and quasi-resurrection of Soushi, and possibly even Misao himself surviving the nuclear strike at the beginning of the movie, also reflected this. Additionally, this could apply, albeit in a metaphorical sense, to all of the Islander adults suffering from radiation sickness being sustained and rejuvenated by the Mir, as well as their insistence on clinging to a peaceful lifestyle steeped in tradition amid a world on fire. In that sense, D-Island was introduced as the embodiment of "life's continuum" before we were even introduced to the sci-fi conflict, barring of course the in media res of Ep. 1's opening. Heck, you could even argue that Orihime's existence (regardless of whether she's actually Tsubaki or merely retains her memories) exhibits "life's continuum" as well, though it wasn't readily apparent back in H&E.

That said, yes, it is certainly more pronounced now, possibly at the expense of screentime for the traditional sci-fi conflict. I was especially concerned around episodes 19 and 20, when it briefly looked like everyone might receive a Kouyou-style physical reincarnation, which would have had detrimental retroactive effects on the rest of the franchise, but fortunately that didn't happen. On that note, are you saying that the ghosts that appear in the last several episodes of Exodus are what's hurting the tension, or is it something else? If it's the ghosts, I would argue that there have been too few physical revivals to lessen the fear or consequence of character deaths. While I didn't think she'd actually die, I was definitely on edge when Maya initiated Fenrir (Nah, she'll be fine, they wouldn't, not yet... Oh no, that's what they want me to think, killing her off during the mission to rescue her is right up their alley! Uhh, maybe!), and Akira's death only increased my sentimentality for his character (I only began to like/sympathize with his character when he invited Walter to the Island). Also, I won't be remotely surprised if the ghosts are only around long enough to see the Island and its inhabitants safely through the main conflict, at the very least proceeding to a state where they're still present but no longer able to communicate with the living, or maybe just with Miwa.

Is the spiritual element playing a bigger role than was originally intended? Possibly, but there has long been enough groundwork laid to support it if was intended all along.

[/size]

Well, this is just me, but I think I started to see the "ghosts" and the Festum-reincarnated characters as one in the same. I know they're different, but it just seemed like the characters kept hopping back into the plot with dialogue, etc. Imagine if in the original series, Shoko had come back several episodes after her passing and started talking to the cast. Her tragedy would sort of seem less impactful. Still, I think you broke down the way this series has always straddled the line, but I just feel like if the characters perpetually exist as ghosts on D-Island, even when they died far away like Hiroto (and not even by Festum hands), then we're never really losing characters from the story. It's intriguing, but for me, it started to hurt the tension and confuse to me the costs of the conflict. I was under the impression early on that Exodus would end the franchise, and that Soushi and Kazuki would cease to exist in order for the conflict to end. Now, I guess you could make a case for that is what happened...but really, it's just setting up a repeat of history. And we've already done this repeat over two series, one OVA, and one Movie. At some point, it feels like we're being strung along. Exodus, at its start, was the best reset, and built to move us to a conclusion. We had Soushi come back from the Festum, we had sympathetic Human Army characters looking for a new way forward, we had a competent and charismatic batch of new recruits with their own intrigues, we had evolving Festum foes showing off the result of the years of conflict with humanity...but in the end, a lot of those elements are tossed aside, quickly closed off, or negated to pass the buck to the next generation. It wasn't without its good points, but I just found myself underwhelmed after my expectations had been surpassed early on in this series. I do think the theme of the continuum, of how people come from nonexistence to existence and back again is fascinating...but I felt it needed to be blended better with the scifi conflict of the series--a planet split between confused and competing factions of humans and aliens.

My feelings run similarly with you, Count, once again.

"If only there'd been fifty eps" is running through my head. It really feels like the story had more to it. My own personal experience with writing and cutting/rushing a story might be corrupting my thinking on this, but to me it resembles a show who's storyboard thought they had more time than what was ultimately given. Things like Ai's return that seem to have properly developed themes, but were rushed to seconds of screentime and relevance rather than be cut from the script.

Nothing was added hap-haphazardly, just fast-forwarded, as oft stated before, and doubtless will in the future. Maybe something happened to speed things up, maybe someone thought they weren't going to get a next time, popularity or not. It's a shame, and one of those mysteries that will never be solved. Perhaps around the second season the ones making the decisions decided to not take away from the ultimate story, just so they could at least give us the plot, even if they had to throw out the set up. Did it pay off? Yes, I believe, if we never get a sequel anime. Like Count, I don't believe an OVA or heavens, a movie, would be long or good enough.

As I said above, I am concerned that ANOTHER anime series might just be passing the buck along to another generation, when the previous set of characters/plot setup weren't fully exploited. Part of what made Exodus so special was it felt like a culmination for a while.

Thinking about the way the plot fast-forwarded, I wonder about the time spent on these: The whole subplots of the Canon-updated Fafners and the all-powerful Raisen didn't seem to have much important bearing on the story or conclusion based on how it ended. Heck, the Raisen just gets left floating out in space, and I don't know if everyone was cured of their assimilation phenomenon. And speaking of which, how are any of the adults going to survive outside the Mir/Island when they have various illnesses, as shown when the Island was in danger in Heaven and Earth.

I guess we'll just wait and see if something comes along. But I am going to be more cautious in my expectations. Exodus isn't without its merits, but my feelings on the series have been affected by its second half. Seems to be an all too common thing these days.

[Areku]

I do think the theme of the continuum, of how people come from nonexistence to existence and back again is fascinating...but I felt it needed to be blended better with the scifi conflict of the series--a planet split between confused and competing factions of humans and aliens.

I can definitely see where you're coming from, but I do have a few minor points of disagreement.

Firstly, the ghosts. I do think that they collectively had too loud a voice for being, ya know, dead'n'all, but I felt there was still a distinct sense of loss associated with each of them. Primarily, they seem to represent the loss of growth and possibility. For the most part, each ghost seems fundamentally static; there's an exception that I noticed, but I'll address that all on its own. By that, I mean that each ghost seems like a preservation of that character as they were at the time of their death, unchanged either physically or mentally; at most, they've learned a few things useful to the living without changing themselves. For example, Shouko hasn't aged a day in six years, and still seems awkwardly shy around Kazuki (this may just be because her actress passed away). Even Kouyou, who is clearly not quite as dead as the others, seems frozen in the protector/savior-complex frame of mind he had when he was partially assimilated in the original series. You may disagree with this, but I find the prospect of continuing to exist but losing the ability to grow, develop and change to be pretty grim, grim enough to put a bitter sting into every death even though it's not the hauntingly-empty void that something like Shouko's death left before we knew about the ghosts.

Canon's ghost is the notable exception. She gets a sizable amount of dialogue, but very little of it sounds like the Canon we know. She speaks with no emotion, lacking even the concealed energy she had when trying to be formal with the younger pilots. Not just that, but much of what she says and does indicates that she, and the rest of the ghosts by extension, aren't what they seem. What really tipped me off to this was her use of the personal pronouns "us" and "we," particularly in her conversation with Kazuki in Ep. 24 (anyone proficient with Japanese, feel free to correct me if I'm misinterpreting "wareware"). Not only is it highly reminiscent of how Festum engage in human speech, but she also uses the pronouns in context of either collective Festum or the Island's Mir. I'd be willing to leave that alone, if not for her peculiar actions. Two separate times, she seems to take control of Mk. Acht, rendering Kenji unconscious on at least one of the occasions. The first time, she seems to use Kenji as a conduit to issue commands and repair Rina's Mk. Neun while explaining the situation to Kenji and Sui. The second time, she seems to use Kenji to control a pair of Troopers, using his "medicine" SDP to restore Mk. Sein. Based on what we're shown, she alarmingly seems to allow Kenji to be overtaken by Diablo types on the second occasion; endangering an unwitting Kenji to bring Kazuki to the battlefield seems a lot closer to Orihime's cold pragmatism than post-UN Canon's hot-blooded passion.

After examining ghost-Canon's speech and actions, the other ghosts become much more suspicious. Most of them just stand there with no acknowledgment of the living, eyes lively but not actually looking at or interacting with anything. Aside from Canon, those that do speak seem to be a shallow snapshot of themselves at the time of their death, and Canon herself is highly suspect. Taken altogether, it leaves me with the impression that they're nothing more than facades and mouthpieces for the Island Mir, donning the faces of the dead to console, persuade and occasionally control the living. If that's the case, it actually adds another layer to the tragedy of character deaths; not only are they dead, but now their likeness will be used to manipulate those they leave behind!

But, as with many things in this franchise, that is subject to interpretation. That became much more involved than I intended when I started typing!

Anyway, yes, LightningCount, I definitely agree that they missed a lot of potential. Between unneeded/pointless late plotlines, the wasted potential of earlier interesting plotlines and characters, the mostly-deja-vu unfinished ending, and the breakneck pacing, there were a number of ways the story could have been significantly better. I'm glad I'm not the only one who felt like the adults' radiation sickness seemed to be forgotten in the final episode! I just don't think the specter of death diminished as significantly as you feel it did, and I say this as someone who once felt it was setting up to compromise the impact of both past and future deaths.

[LightningCount]

I do think the theme of the continuum, of how people come from nonexistence to existence and back again is fascinating...but I felt it needed to be blended better with the scifi conflict of the series--a planet split between confused and competing factions of humans and aliens.

I can definitely see where you're coming from, but I do have a few minor points of disagreement. [...]

Don't worry, I can see your side of it, too. With what you're saying, it makes me wonder if the ghosts are more like "avatars" of the Core. But then, Walter didn't really "know" the island or die on it--he used fenrir in the water--and yet he comes back smiling on the ghost bus with Hiroto for Akira*. Hirito seemed very much his old self. But maybe that adds to your point that they are who they were. I don't know. Like I said, I can see both sides of it, but I think it become overplayed for my tastes, and wasn't made explicitly clear in terms of the rules of these entities in the plot. I never knew the qualifications for the Mir to take on these ghosts, or if there was any limitations therein.

*I did think that Akira's final episode or so solidified his character, though; so, I don't want to say it was all bad--that's not what I mean at all. I was just expecting a lot of things, and when you have stuff like Ai essentially dying off camera (the first shot a few episodes ago wasn't clear it was fatal when you see it), and then coming back to life as a puppet only to be axed shortly afterward, it just encapsulated my frustration). I will note that I thought Keith's final moments were also creatively done; I just would have liked to see her give more fits to our heroes if they were going to bother to bring her back after she was already shot down. (And for that matter, it wasn't clear to me she was going to be so kooky all the time--she even seemed to suggest to Dustin the idea of smuggling back Billy and bending the harsh rules of ROE Alpha early in Season 2. But then, I'm sort of getting off topic.)

...My biggest thing at this point is that for the first time in this franchise--and this is for me personally now--I feel like this series' "ending" has sort of made the previous episodes less enjoyable, and that it doesn't leave me feeling like things are nicely set up for a lot of future exploration in the world of Fafner. I know there are things they can clarify, and threads they can pull from, but I don't feel that personal pull of "I can't wait to see what else happens to the characters and where the world will go from here." The tension of Altair's arrival was making for a really great finale. That said, the next production, if there is one, could be awesome. Maybe starting over, they can pick up the most interesting pieces. But I just don't know what to think right now. I just know that previously, I always felt like the progression of the franchise was getting better and better until this point. But, like I noted earlier, I'm sure there are lots of reasons things ended up the way they did behind-the-scenes, and that some of the things that bugged me were probably just fine when taken into a wider fame of view.

I'm at a loss for words, I guess. Unfortunately for me, while I can see the pros and cons, I just am left with this bummed feeling by Season 2. Going mostly off the top of my head, I was feeling good through Episode 16. Then, Episodes 17 through 20 were a mixed bag for me, and it took until the end of 21 for me to really regain some confidence in the overall story. Episode 22 was right on target, and then things got shaky for me again by the end of 23, and it remained a mixed bag through the ending. Thinking about it, the execution and usage of the Mitsuhiro twist is probably the linchpin moment where they finally lost me. Again, I think all of these ideas would have been fine if there had been more time to build them up and utilize them. Looking back, I think that there should have been a crossing of paths between the Exodus forces and Burns' coup forces earlier. Probably just a little bit after Hiroto's passing. It would have allowed the Human Army characters, both good and bad guys/gals, to stay in the mix in a meaningful way with the previously established characters. But I'll leave it at that.

[Areku]

Honestly, I'm not sure what to make of Hiroto and Walter's ghosts. The first time we see Hiroto's ghost, Akira is clearly distraught and exhausted, and Walter's reaction indicated Akira was talking to himself. Then again, Walter isn't connected through the crossing, which is how Akira tried to explain it away. If Akira genuinely thought he was talking to Hiroto, he would have had a litany of questions for him and would be urging everyone to rescue him, not sitting around talking about whether or not they're happy with their mission. After this conversation, Akira insists a few times that Hiroto is still alive, but confesses on the ghost bus that he'd known the truth for a while. Which raises the question: Had Akira already accepted the truth at the time of the conversation? If not, we have evidence of Akira talking to himself while projecting his thoughts onto the faces of the dead, which could also explain the ghost bus being (pardon the pun) much livelier than the Urd ghosts. Alternatively, Akira's invitation and Walter's loyalty to and sacrifice for Islanders may have made Walter an honorary Islander, qualifying him for ghost status. After all, Yukie and Bartland are technically Islanders but aren't ghosts, so it wouldn't appear to be as simple as whether or not someone's an Islander.

Of course, that's a metric asston of ifs and maybes, and I'm probably just overthinking it, but I think it's worth a little consideration.

I'm curious, LightningCount, how do you feel about Yumiko? She's alarmingly similar to your Shouko example, but you haven't mentioned her by name. How do you feel about Yumiko getting crushed, immediately getting revived, and then fading away when Miwa accepts her death?

(Speaking of Miwa, if these ghosts are the real deal, it seems to me that we should have had a Miwa and Michio scene at some point. Another victim of the pacing, or a conspicuous absence?)

[LightningCount]

Honestly, I'm not sure what to make of Hiroto and Walter's ghosts...

I'm curious, LightningCount, how do you feel about Yumiko? She's alarmingly similar to your Shouko example, but you haven't mentioned her by name. How do you feel about Yumiko getting crushed, immediately getting revived, and then fading away when Miwa accepts her death?

(Speaking of Miwa, if these ghosts are the real deal, it seems to me that we should have had a Miwa and Michio scene at some point. Another victim of the pacing, or a conspicuous absence?)

The one thought I had about the Walter and Hiroto bus scene when I watched it was...maybe these are spirits leaving the human realm and going to heaven. That was the only sense I could make of it. But then, that sort of goes against the Island ghost concept of every good fallen Islander dwelling there in essence. Very confusing.

As far as Yumiko, I wasn't 100% happy with the resurrection, but I saw it as an avatar of the Ashoka Mir to continue the dialogues with Miwa and Emery. It wasn't really Yumiko. It was a Mir playing a "mother" role. That's how I justified that. It was clearly never the real Yumiko after her death. But then, yeah...what happened to the REAL Yumiko's ghost, and where was Michio? I didn't even think about that.

I just realized, I'm not clear on what happened to the Ashoka Mir. It survived, but did it merge with Altair, or just set up on another of the ALVIS Islands?

[Areku]

I don't think the bus was going to heaven, though that was also my first impression when I saw it. In Ep. 17, we learn that the Gordian Crystal has one growth that can't be directly accounted for, and Ikumi (the Nishio grandmother) concludes that this was for Hiroto. It would appear that the Gordian Crystal can capture ghosts regardless of the distance of death. So either the bus was headed for heaven and the ghosts really are just something the Mir is using to manipulate the living, or the bus is headed for the Crystal. Or it was absolutely nothing more than Akira coming to terms with his own suffering, as he hadn't actually died yet (he fully crystallizes and shatters only after the bus scene). Hopefully this will be clarified some day, or at least depicted more consistently.

As for Ashoka, I'm of the impression that they're using it for the new island. I highly doubt the adults' illnesses were suddenly forgotten, and that would be the simplest answer. The new island seems to still be in usable condition by the end of Exodus, complete with a Core in development.