The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Iris Scope » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:59 pm

Tried out ep. 16 and thank the maker i did because Freyja's birthday celebration was a sight to behold. The gifts, the songs, the triangle which is what keeps me coming back for more was being fully utilized. Only downer is feeling like Arad is somewhat shifty in all matters whether it be Wright Immelmann or Kaname.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Wed Aug 03, 2016 4:47 am

I've harbored suspicions toward Arad for a while now, with Ep.18 motivating me to review past episodes to examine him further. That examination produced mixed results, but raised further questions about Johnson and Lady M. I can't help feeling like Arad, Johnson and Lady M are up to something nefarious, or at least morally questionable from the perspective of more forthright characters like Hayate, Freyja and Mirage, though Johnson seems least culpable. Spoiler tagging this because it's pretty long and kind of rambling:
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The tipping point in my interest and suspicion was in Ep.18, where Kaname specifically draws attention to the fact that Arad has paired up Hayate and Freyja despite their recent tension surrounding Hayate's father, followed by Arad's "just as planned" face when Hayate "synchronizes" with Freyja despite Reina and Kaname's obvious surprise and Makina's expression of sheer panic. This seemed to align with other suspicious circumstances involving Arad, particularly his history with a man who seemingly acted out of character to commit what he himself calls "genocide" (Hayate's father, no less!) and with a man who had a suspiciously pervasive affliction of VAR Syndrome (Messer, and it should be noted that Alberto and other Voldorians are regarded as perfectly healthy in Ep.17-18 even after Messer's example of chronic symptoms) and the way he seems to coyly dodge questions regarding them. Other factors, namely his decision to allow Hayate to "fly Messer's share" rather than fill Delta's ranks, further compounded this suspicion; it's almost like he's trying to strain Hayate into recreating something similar to Messer's selective VAR Syndrome. At the very least, his Ep.18 conversation with Kaname and the allegorical responses he offers her suggest he still has more secrets he's keeping "under the rug".

So let's rewind and see what else lines up with this "nefarious Arad" line of suspicion:

- In Ep.2, Arad seems to recognize Hayate on appearance alone, later confirming that recognition when he gets his file. Arad says he hates the army; this could be a simple expression of frustration with rules and regulations, or it could be a deep-seated understatement reflecting what we now know was his involvement with the 77th Air Wing on Winderemere.

- In Ep.4, we learn that Freyja received her media player from an Earthling.

- In Ep.6, Arad seems to be genuinely enjoying fighting the VAR'd NUNS forces, though he still goes out of his way to avoid killing them.

- In Ep.7, we see from her flashback that Freyja was within a few miles of Wright's dimensional warhead.

- In Ep.9, we learn that fold receptors suppress the activity of the fold bacteria that "likely" facilitate VAR Syndrome, and that the presence of fold receptors are a precondition for being considered a candidate in becoming a Walkure singer and that Hayate also possesses fold receptors (in contrast to the other Delta pilots). Later, Johnson calls Arad out for his seeming indifference to the fact that three of his wingmen were shot down within a few seconds by his 4th wingman, Messer, who we've already surmised he may have been favoring at the time for his chronic susceptibility to VAR Syndrome. Later in Ep.9, we learn that while in the grips of his VAR Syndrome, Messer was rescued and then recruited by Arad himself and that Arad is aware of the fact that Messer hasn't been fully cured; we also learn that Johnson and Lady M were aware of Messer's ongoing condition, but that Johnson finds Messer's continued role as a combatant to be "insane". Messer seemed surprisingly receptive to Arad's comment that he'd reached his limit, seemingly resigning himself to fact.

- In Ep.10, Messer asks Arad point-blank "Is it all right for me to stay alive?". Johnson and Arad have a conversation in which Arad draws an intuitively under-explained connection between Freyja:Hayate -> fate -> Windermere:Hayate Immelman/Arad/Johnson; he could simply be referencing the fact that Freyja's from Windermere, but there seems to be at least a slight implication that of course it would be Freyja. Later in Ep.10, we see Messer's final send off and departure via rocket with his VF-31F, followed by Arad saying "We're not gonna keep up" over the radio during the battle at Al Shahal, followed by Messer's "I was briefed ... I'm still a member of Delta Platoon" arrival 62 camera-seconds later (200 camera-seconds after Johnson realizes multiple planets are being affected by fold waves simultaneously). Messer tells Kaname that he'll soon turn VAR permanently.

- In Ep.11, there are multiple times where Arad seems to intentionally try to use Messer's death to antagonize Hayate into pushing himself harder. He singles Hayate out, asking if he'll cover Messer's absence, asks if he's scared, then stops Mirage from following him so he can stew over it. Arad's also the one to chime in that Messer was trying to keep his distance so that others wouldn't get close, which seems to legitimately piss off Hayate and deflate everyone else; given the dramatically different effect the comment has on Hayate compared to everyone else, it's like Arad was targeting it straight at Hayate. Cut to Walkure wading at dawn, Hayate's first words are that Arad was right and that he'll fly Messer's share, and Arad gets the same subdued "just as planned" face from Ep.18.

- In Ep.12, Johnson talks about his past with Windermere and Gramia. When asked what he did when war broke out, Johnson makes some uncharacteristically dramatic gestures and says that Winderemere wouldn't let outsiders get involved in their fight and dismissed him.

- Between Ep.12&14, we learn that Hayate received his fold quartz necklace (and a bunch of other junk) from his father from a unknown locations via letter; there's at least a small possibility the fold quartz wasn't sent by his father.

- In Ep.16, Arad downplays his relationship with Wright, saying that he only knew him in passing and that he never told Hayate because he never asked. In the infirmary, Robert says he wonders if the truth will be revealed soon; he seems to be speaking in a broad context, not just about Hayate. At Freyja's birthday party, everyone joins Mikumo in singing to Freyja... except for Arad, who just stands there like he's waiting for something, not even pretending to sing. (What more does it take to tell you the dude's Evil?!) As Freyja recounts her story, it seems that she acquired her media player sometime during the war, inspiring her to try to become a singer in spite of the hardships she'd faced (including the death of both parents). Still at the party, Arad approaches Hayate and tells him a little bit more about Wright, now saying he was a skilled pilot too kind for his own good and that Arad owed him a great deal.

- In Ep.17, Robert expresses extreme concern for Hayate's well-being, telling him that he of all people must not get involved with Windermere; this sounds like he knows something that poses a far greater risk to Hayate than "just" the knowledge of his father's actions. Hayate confronts Arad, who describes his father's secret communications with Windermerians, theft of an illegal dimensional warhead, unapproved sortie, and complete destruction of the NUNS base and massive collateral damage to local Windermerians. Arad also describes the multiple ways in which that attack violated treaties, and goes on to describe Wright as an ordinarily kind, odd man who played with children that reminded him of Hayate (presumably around the same age).

- In Ep.18, Arad tells Kaname that Hayate and Freyja need to get over their rift so that they can fully contribute to the team, which is why he paired them up; he provides allegorical answers about secrets, rather than answering her questions with any meaningful detail. As Hayate synchronizes with Freyja and develops VAR symptoms (despite having fold receptors that supposedly immunize him to VAR Syndrome), most of the teams' responses range from concern to surprise to panic, but Arad seems pleasantly content with the situation. As the situation gets crazier, Johnson seems urgently confused, but we don't get to see his response specifically pertaining to Hayate's state.

- - -

Okay, let's recap some of the main points and theories:

- It would seem that based on her age and close proximity to the NUNS garrison, Freyja may have been one of the children Hayate's father played with. Sometime after the shooting started (maybe after her parents died, depending on how you read her description), she received her media player from an Earthling; this also has Wright written all over it. Finally, one of Arad's comments seems to imply that the fate of Wright's past has brought Freyja and Hayate together in the present.

- The circumstances surrounding Messer's death are very suspicious. Messer seemed surprisingly receptive to Arad's comment that he'd reached his limit, then in Ep.10 Messer even asks Arad point-blank "Is it all right for me to stay alive?", and he later tells Kaname that he'll soon turn VAR permanently. Is Ep.10 simply Messer anticipating his own irrelevance and setting up his own suicide, or is he being compliant with his own disposal after reaching his limits in some bizarre experiment?

It's extremely strange for a plane to be moved in a personnel transfer, especially when the plane is a top-of-the-line fighter and the person is basically being quarantined from anticipated battles. How could Messer have timely access to a properly equipped VF-31F (it clearly didn't have a fold booster equipped when he departed) and get a briefing and get to Al Shahal in time without significant help from higher up? Combined with Arad's transmission that only makes sense if he was covertly calling for reinforcements (his message was a very strange thing for a leader to say over the radio without any follow-up order to change the tide), it's starting to sound like Messer wasn't being transferred at all. Maybe the higher-ups saw him as damaged goods that needed to be disposed of in a manner that would motivate Hayate to over-exert himself but without raising suspicion, engineering a situation that would make Messer extra aggressive/reckless and timing his arrival so that he'd be the only combatant left.

- Arad seems to be pushing Hayate down a similar path to what Messer experienced, even forgoing much-needed reinforcements in a way that seems to be intentionally straining Hayate. Combine this with Wright having a close relationship to Arad and committing an out-of-character atrocity, and you'll see a suspicious pattern emerge.

- As described, Hayate's fold receptors should prevent him from experiencing VAR symptoms, but Arad didn't seem surprised that he does anyway in Ep 18.

- At the very least, Arad is still withholding important information/secrets.

- Robert seems concerned for Hayate's well-being, warning him to stay away from Windermere as though it poses a direct hazard to his health.

- Given his reputation for supporting the underdog, his personal involvement with Windermere and his status as a PMC commander at the time of Windermere's war for independence, it stands to reason that Johnson would have cast his lot with Windermere had they let him. While there are a few suspicious things in Johnson's behavior, he seems genuinely disgusted by Xaos' use/misuse of Messer.

- There seem to be multiple layers of suspicious behavior in the actions and dialogue of Arad and Johnson, but neither of them display true consistency in their duplicity; we don't know much about Lady M, but it seems that neither of them would be able to get away with much unless she's also involved. Maybe she's even playing the two against each other, or otherwise keeping them ignorant of the others' tasks. Hell, given the way certain things don't quite line up unless Arad and/or Johnson are somehow serving Windermere's interests, maybe Lady M even has her hand in the Epsilon Foundation that's been supporting Windermere. Among other things, it could explain the multiple untimely disengagements that we've seen exercised both by Kaos and Windermere, especially if Roid (who has frequently called back the AKs when they have the upper hand) is involved.

- I hypothesized in the Mecha section that there was a Windermere mole fairly close to Reina and Makina. In Ep.6, the Aerial Knights seemed to be aware of the fact that the singers had made modifications to the Siegfrieds and multidrones to address the jamming that the AKs were able to use effectively in Ep.4. If Arad/Johnson/Lady M are somehow in bed with Windermere, it would explain why the AKs dropped a seemingly-effective aspect of warfare out of the blue.

- - -

Of course, none of this is airtight. There a few significant problems:

- Arad seems genuinely concerned for Messer's well-being. He always seems to give him genuine advice, and he seemed to be genuinely surprised by and strongly protest Messer's ill-fated arrival in Ep.10.

- Neither Arad nor Johnson seem to be fully on board with the supposed duplicitous behavior. It's possible that both of them are amazing actors, but that seems pretty unlikely.

- For Arad/Johnson/Lady M to be doing anything more nefarious than simply keeping secrets close to the chest, it more-or-less requires an elaborate conspiracy theory where many of the major players on both sides are involved in behind-the-scenes cooperation. This would again require Arad and Johnson to be skilled actors, as they have a lot of seemingly-surprised reactions to information that they'd need to know to play their role effectively.

- - -

Overall, if Arad/Johnson/Lady M really are up to something, I'm finding it very difficult to identify their exact goals and motives. However, there seems to be a substantial amount of evidence that at least one of them is up to something.

What do you think? Is someone within Kaos' upper echelon up to something, or am I simply reading way too far into story beats intended to galvanize the story's core plot points?
Last edited by Areku on Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Dark Duel » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:06 am

Honestly, I have no idea. What I do think is that while it does seem like the cat's out of the bag where Wright Immelmann is concerned(and it jibes with what we've all suspected from the beginning), I personally get the sense that we haven't heard all there is to it.
That being said, one detail struck me as highly interesting,
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which is the brief shot, during the sequence where the Protoculture ruins are going haywire, that showed those weird facial marks/scars starting to appear on that one dude, who previously had none whatsoever.
To the best of my recollection, hitherto those had only appeared on Windermereans who were clearly older (the blonde guy is 33, and King Old Fart was very probably even older despite the average lifespan of the species being only 30 years) than he is.

What this indicates to me, personally, is that there may be some kind of connection between those scars and the experiments with the Wind Song and/or the Protoculture ruins.
Man, I wish I could remember these dudes's names. Only ones I can remember offhand are Roid, Keith, and Bogue.
Also, that one bearded dude is clearly up to something nefarious, probably his own agenda separate from Roid, and I think one will turn on the other before too long.

But what I really like about this show is that it keeps you guessing. You never quite know what's gonna happen next, or at least I don't, and that's what makes it so interesting.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by ChaoticSheep1 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 11:53 am

That man's name was Cassim. Yeah those are what I assume are the marks of the aging process that the Windermerians experience.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Wed Aug 03, 2016 12:45 pm

Dark Duel wrote:Man, I wish I could remember these dudes's names.
Herman (the 33-year-old), Cassim/Qasim (the knight-no-longer), Theo and Xao (the hair twins, don't ask me which is which), Uroh (sp?, who died on his first flight in Ep.6) and Berger (sp?, Epsilon's Ali Al-Saachez). Gramia was also a whopping 35.

As for the scaling effect, I think it's just related to fold waves in general. Do remember that Windermerians seem to consume a lot of the apples that, when combined with water from Protoculture ruins (and so far everything we've seen on Windermere is within line-of-sight of the dimensional crater and the ruins), leads to increased activity of fold bacteria. That's probably a contributing factor to their short lifespan, and it makes sense to me that innately increased fold activity would have something to do with their scaling. However, I don't remember seeing those scars on any Windermerians other than Gramia, Herman, and now Cassim, so it might not be so "natural". More of my thoughts on the scaling.

And yes, I do think the apples innately carry the associated bicarbonate, otherwise why would they continue to distribute them to annexed planets instead of simply adding the bicarbonate to other foods instead?
Dark Duel wrote:But what I really like about this show is that it keeps you guessing.
Yes, it definitely provides enough evidence, counter-evidence and is generally detail-dense enough to obfuscate what's actually going on. Hopefully this is all leading to something compelling, rather than just a mess of setup that never pans out.
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Though I'm more interested in Kumo-Kumo's history that's hinted at here. If the likes of Sheryl, Ranka, and anyone else who sing and amp up with fold quartz powers were Newtypes, than Mikumo might be a Cyber Newtype flavor. One made specifically to resonate with the Protoculture ruins maybe?

This power however is having quite the effect on everyone and proving to be too much high power man for Hayate as he starts going Var from being too in sync with Freija.
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Weren't Ranka and Sheryl already the equivalent of Cyber Newtypes? Both were artificially made to have Vajra-like powers (or am I remembering that wrong?), so if anything, Mikumo would just be extra-Cyber...y. It's also worth noting that the name she says in Ep.18, Rudanjal Rom Mayan, is the name of the "true king" of Windermere, as mentioned in either Ep.11 or 12 and again in Ep.15, further indicating a strong connection between her and Windermere.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Ascension » Wed Aug 03, 2016 2:07 pm

Areku wrote:
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Weren't Ranka and Sheryl already the equivalent of Cyber Newtypes? Both were artificially made to have Vajra-like powers (or am I remembering that wrong?), so if anything, Mikumo would just be extra-Cyber...y. It's also worth noting that the name she says in Ep.18, Rudanjal Rom Mayan, is the name of the "true king" of Windermere, as mentioned in either Ep.11 or 12 and again in Ep.15, further indicating a strong connection between her and Windermere.
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While both Ranka and Sheryl were powered up by the same V-type infection, Ranka was unintentionally infected while in the womb, while Sheryl was intentionally infected while a child, so in this metaphor Sheryl would be a Cyber-Newtype and Ranka would be... an accidental Coordinator? IDK, her situation isn't really precedented in Gundam.

The thing I think is really interesting is that the name Rudanjal Rom Mayan includes, well, "Mayan." The name of the island from Macross Zero. Combined with Roid's open claims that Windermereans are the true inheritors of the Protoculture, that really makes me think that they, and Mikumo, are connected with the Bird-Human on Earth. I really need to actually watch Zero one of these days.

While some of Mikumo's flashbacks definitely seemed to indicate that she'd been experimented upon by humans, I'm inclined to think she wasn't created by them. My suspicion is that her creation dates back to the Protoculture itself.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Dark Duel » Wed Aug 03, 2016 3:25 pm

Ascension wrote:
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While some of Mikumo's flashbacks definitely seemed to indicate that she'd been experimented upon by humans, I'm inclined to think she wasn't created by them. My suspicion is that her creation dates back to the Protoculture itself.
Now that would be veeeery interesting, IMO. Especially if it's handled well.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Wed Aug 03, 2016 7:59 pm

As far as Mikumo's concerned, I think most of the theories I've seen about her are at least partially correct. She has an air of mystery about her that she herself seems unable to explain or account for, with flashbacks showing mist-covered Protoculture structures that seem to have surfaced in modern times only recently, so her origin could plausibly extend all the way back to the Protoculture directly. She seems well-informed about Windermere and Wind Singers and now has muttered the name of the "true king of Windermere", strongly implying that she's spent a significant amount of time on Windermere (yet Roid does not seem surprised by her appearance, implying he doesn't recognize her as a missing Wind Singer or other important person). There wasn't a single rune, gill, or cat-ear among the five faces staring down at her, implying that she was experimented on by a group of Earthlings (or the Protoculture are remarkably plain in appearance).

Is Mikumo a direct product of the Protoculture, a Windermerian expatriate or an Earthling experiment? Right now, the answer seems to be "yes, and in that order".

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:49 pm

Well this episode was basically one big history lesson.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Henyo » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:20 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:Well this episode was basically one big history lesson.
yup. and just what my friend needed. he got hooked with Delta. even going as far as to ask about the series' world details.(Protoculture and the Fold Wave concept.) he seems especially curious about the Jenius'. gotta make him watch DYRL some time soon.

episode 19 got me asking: Is lady M Mao Nome? those experimentations...

one more thing! anyone watched the Special? i LOLed hard. Roid's Unpleasant Video Viewing Glasses.
and some of the Knights being drawn in the same limited way as Cromartie Characters. :twisted:
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sun Aug 21, 2016 5:37 pm

Looks like
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the ruin system was the Protoculture's attempt at re-creating the Vajra hive mind.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Iris Scope » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:28 pm

I'm slowly making some progress in watching the second half of the series and I have to admit that episode 18 had some stunning visuals in it's aerial combat and Protoculture ruin hijinks where it seems like Freyja is unknowingly causing Hayate more harm than good in their sync of piloting and singing.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Wingnut » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:05 pm

Ho dang. ZOINKS has gotten real here.
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Roid's a perv changing Mikumo like that and then tying her up while she's unconscious. Then he pulls a Hazanko on Melfina and mind controls her with a single (built-in?) phrase to bend her to his will and become this Star Singer. Something that it seems Lady M and co. knew about already and possibly even were the ones who made Kumo-Kumo to serve that function. It looks like he's going to try and use her against our heroes and take over the galaxy or something.

But the real "Oh ZOINKS!" moment of the episode is when that sniper manages to put one through Makina. She's a trooper though for going on even with a hole in her side and making sure Reina keeps singing. Some douche though on /m/ complained that they didn't have the "courage" to actually kill her though. There's always mindless haters around when things don't go to their script. Newsflash: It's not your show, and if you don't like it, stop watching. We will not miss you.

Anyway, it seems like a rescue mission for Mikumo, and of course explanations from Lady M are in order for the next episode, I hope.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Amion » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:32 pm

I'm questioning the pacing now. I guess they have enough time, but two episodes is stretching it just a tad.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Ryujin » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:06 pm

Well, that was quite the teaser that Mr. Space Merchant just dropped regarding Lady M.

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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Vent Noir » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:20 pm

Ryujin wrote:Well, that was quite the teaser that Mr. Space Merchant just dropped regarding Lady M.
According to the fansubber, Lady M is
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Lin Minmei
, but I didn't notice anything confirming that in what I know of the Japanese dialogue. Was it confirmed somewhere, or just something the fansubber pulled out of their rear end?
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Amion » Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:44 pm

Maybe Japanese characters made it more explicit?
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Areku » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:20 pm

Vent Noir wrote:Was it confirmed somewhere, or just something the fansubber pulled out of their rear end?
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Given the overtly suggestive context of Berger mentioning Megaroad-01, Minmay's last known location, I would say it's not much of a leap for the subber to point out that Lin Minmay : Lady M. If I'm remembering Delta's dates correctly, she'd be 73-74 years old (ignoring any possible relativistic or fold-based shenanigans), and is easily the most viable candidate for the Lady M moniker among already-established characters.

It isn't actually confirmed yet, but that really does seem to be the direction they're going with this.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by Dark Duel » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:20 am

Well, all things considered that does seem plausible, in my opinion.
Delta is set in 2067. The original series was set in around 2009 or thereabouts. IIRC Minmay was around 19 at the time, so she would be something like 77 years old as of the time of Delta.
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Re: The Official Macross Delta Anime Thread Mk I

Post by zerogradius » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:38 pm

Dark Duel wrote:Well, all things considered that does seem plausible, in my opinion.
Delta is set in 2067. The original series was set in around 2009 or thereabouts. IIRC Minmay was around 19 at the time, so she would be something like 77 years old as of the time of Delta.
However, if you take the time spent in the space fold, even though 55 years have passed, she would have only spent about 84 days between taking off in 2012 and arriving supposedly in 2067. So even though she would be in her seventies, she would look the same.

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