Zeonista wrote: LightningCount wrote:
Amion wrote:I don't appreciate Kycilia's more ruthless interpretation, then. One of the best things about the Zabis to me was how mostly human they were. Right now, only poor Dozzle has escaped with any inkling of humanity in tact. (Ignoring Garma, who gets it)
Kycilia's talk with Char indicated she had a softer side, one that kind of reminded me of Mineva, for some reason. It lent depth into her and Char's past, which is now changed... that gave her a more human light. Turning her into the real schemer just seems like poor drama for the sake of it. Not that it's impossible or unlikely in a realistic sense, of course. But even so...
Amion, I agree on this. There is a lot I like about The Origin, but this new take on Kycilia doesn't totally jive with me. That's part of why I don't know if all of 0079 should be redone in this style (I especially don't like hearing above that she helps bring about her father's end in this telling). That being said, from what has happened so far, I could still see her evolving into who she becomes later, I suppose. I mean, at this point, she's just trying to assert herself in a largely cutthroat, all-business family. And her youth combined with the outright abuse from her eldest brother could explain the parade plot she seemingly carried out in Episode 1. However, I'm still debating with myself whether or not she would have been the one to accidentally kill off the real Char. On the other hand...maybe her later sympathy for the man we know as Char is a sign of respect for him having made it as far as he had despite her early attempts, combined with her mellowing with age and successes/failures of her own. I thought her protection of the Deikun kids and their mother early in Episode 1 was fairly in-character.
Zeonista I may be, but I was not sorry to see the last of the Zabis, bar Garma and Minerva. Whatever good they had managed to do was outweighed by the bad, and the final round of betrayals at the end of the One Year War was just the final grab for the throne with a chance to arrest some of the bad decisions made since Loum. Degwin got a little wisdom in his older days, but the only real Zeonist was Gihren, which was shuddersome in its own right. The only half-decent one of the adults was Dozzle, who was not clever enough to be ambitious and just loyally set the Inner Sphere on fire at the behest of his father and eldest brother. So much for the historical soap opera of the mid-Universal Century.
Now, Tomino wrote the Zabis as a decidedly opportunistic bunch, as if a family of merchant princes from the Italian renaissance or a daimyo dynasty from the Warring States had been brought forward in time to Side 3 and been given the keys to the kingdom, so to speak. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.
Now, the Origin story followed his lead, and was a real prize in explaining the back story of the republic-cum-principality to those of use who had not been alive in 1931 or 1791 to see the historical process of the self-interested supplanting the selfless in action. The Zabis were still not ee-vil in the Galactic Empire format, they hijacked a revolution for fun and profit and control, and then had to pull things together before the Federation could make up its collective mind on how to deal with them. Add in the temptaion of Zeonism as a ready-made banner and cover for aggressive expansion and reward with space-age weaponry... Power corrupts, but absolute power is really nifty!
Dare I speak for the wise Count? But humor my answer, Zeonista.
I agree with what you said, but I think you misunderstand my complaint. I was very happy to see Kycillia gone by the end as well. and Dozzle's demise brought no tears. But that's how real tragedies, according to the original definition, are best played. The deaths bring closure to the tragic individual's life.
But it's rare for people to feel anything but revulsion for eevil people. The Origin takes things just a bit too far. Tomino demonstrated humane balance. Yes, the Zabis were basically the worst Humanity had to offer, at least racked up a death toll unequaled by their predecessors. Ghiren was basically Hitler. His brother was merciless when ordered and his sister was ruthless in pursuit of her goals.
Even so, that didn't make them entirely rotten. They were humans, like Hitler, capable of loving their family or close relatives. Able to feel, for the most part, and behave like other people. Of course, they were evil. Ghiren was willing to murder his father when it became necessary for the fulfillment of his ambitions. Kycillia cast aside love for righteous vengeance against patricide, and all of them, sans (Probably, hopefully) Garma, were willing to "make the sky fall" and turn entire colonies into gas ovens.
Origin, however, makes the big lost mistake in all this: that the people, or family, who did these things were human beings. It's like Churchill warned (or was it him, now? My history's muddy today) of twisting into the very thing one is trying to defeat, and all that. Instead of keeping some level of humanity, the Origin takes careful note to mar or sanctify the characters we see on-screen such that the Zabis appear utterly despicable without even a scent of arbitrary goodness. They've been stereotyped.
This applies to generally everyone. Ramba Ral and Hamon are flawlessly nice and noble. Poor Astraia was entirely sane and innocent. Poor Sayla is shown as being an angel among demons, despite having plenty of slip-up moments on White Base to prove she's not a selfless paragon of righteousness. Casval is portrayed as an absolute magnificent Bastard, played up to 11, as has been mentioned by others, to the point that we are led to believe he has ALWAYS been the Char of CCA, rather than one who was driven to such extremes by poor life choices and obsession.
The Zabis suffer the worst, seeing as they just don't get as much screen-time, all taken into account. They are the monsters, the mustache-twirling leadership of unquestionable evil and fascism and autocracy-gone-wrong. It's hard to find even a few scenes where Kycillia, for instance, is even smiling warmly as she did to Char in MSG. It's no question she's a manipulator or insidious witch, but Tomino left enough up to viewer interpretation to believe there were shreds of humanity at least hiding the monster.
The Origin throws such finesse aside and gives us a Bright-slapping elder brother Guerilla, a vengeful female snake, an ominously cold master of strategy, Guerrillabear, and a spoiled rich kid (who I don't think is shown in a very bad light, honestly. Even during Dawn Rebellion his whole deal was trying to toughen himself. That's a noble goal, he was just so coddled that he didn't know how to even start)+plus father who's long since progressed into tired Grandfather mode.
To do Count justice, seeing as I am trying to reply for him as well to some small extend, let us take Wing as example.
Heero Yuy is quite complicated if taking all the material we have of him as a whole, and reading between lines for subtle clues as to how his mind works, which is often enough not even given to us. However, he is the first real "stoic" MC. We now have a few more of his archetype to look at, such as, say, Mikazuki or Setsuna. Both could be described as, at least in their show's S1s, to be relatively flat and stoic. While I am aware Setsuna does evolve out of his shell, and Mika is generally more emotive in a cute, disgruntled child way, it's perhaps not wrong to accuse them of being rather too emotionless, like Heero, but without some of the subtle growth he experiences. To summarize: they are, or at least appear without effort from the viewer, to be one-dimensional, or plain in their purpose and mindset.
I think that might not be a good example, as there's a whole thread there for debate.
So let's all go back to our favorite whipping boy, Kira Chr-err, Yamato. He might not have started off as a caricature, but he ends up as one of himself. And then we have Kio Asuno, Banager Links, Sayla (for a moment!) in Origin's episode 1, and who knows who else I'm forgetting. The "I's too god to kill" is definitely a symptom of poor character development because it is often shown as being one-dimensional, same as with the Stoic Teenage Assassin/Guerrilla/Gundamu!/brat reference. Even if these people are in fact multi-faceted, they do come across contrary to this, and that's where I fear for the Origin's characters, including the fascinating Zabis.
All in all, yes I enjoyed the Origin immensely. It's coming home for me almost as much as it surely is for you, fellow Zeonist
. But I don't want to be immune to its less savory aspects. I wouldn't go so far as to say the story itself is bad, or that its characterization is a SEED D*st*ny class ruin, not at all. However, much of the joy in watching the Origin relies heavily upon our beloved masterpiece.
And while everything I've seen of the OYW Origin manga is delicious to my tastes, I must ask how much of it is buttery stylization over meaty substance? Many of us watch as Anime slides into the grime of one-dimensional, of style over substance, of boobs over banter, of lazy CGI over hard-crafted art, etc.
What I want to honestly be sure of is that we UC fans aren't enjoying The Origin for the same reason Destiny fans enjoyed its pandering. Are we, to a clearly lesser extent, being pandered? Are our udders being milked without our knowing? Have we become the cow, from which Bandai's hands are masterful squeezing dry for profit, by offering us all the fanservice that we want?
The Origin OYW that I've see, as said, appealed. But why? Because of character development I'd never seen? Or because we get an Epic Sayla(TM)? Or because every vehicle has had its late 70's zing replaced with sexy-awesome redesign? Are we screaming for a remake of the gritty, imperfect diary of a bunch of war-victims-turned-soldiers? Or are we getting fanfiction that has embellished and banished all flaws and flimsy? If that's so, where do the real differences between Seed and The Origin really begin, outside of world setting? Or from Destiny? Aren't we treading awfully close?
It seems to me Bandai has been leery of a full-fledge adaption not just because of profit concerns, but for fear they may in fact be doing exactly what I'm saying. If so, The Origin might end up deforming MSG the same way a failed plastic surgery was meant to fix the patient's face. Surely it's not so bad, but how far away is it?
Good Lord, what have I written? Apologies, all! Just putting down my thoughts. (A few too many, looks like...)