Mission Accepted- Gundam Wing Rewatch

[HellCat]

So after finishing G whilst my internet was down a few weeks ago and surprisingly having little to say on the finale, I've finally started my next stage with a rewatch of Wing.

I actually tried to do this a few years ago but fell off. I can see why. The first 3 episodes are pretty dry and it's not until we're introduced to Noin and the Tallgeese that I think the show starts picking up better speed.

The setting of Wing has always been pretty interesting. External conflict and inner power struggles are nothing new to Gundam but I like how we see an arguably more mature take here. OZ already has a plan underway and is careful in how it plays the wider military until it's ready. There's nothing seemingly as far fetched as the free reign of the Titans or the licenses in 00. The Specials kind of have that freedom but don't seem to actually indulge it. Likewise, they're not slapping psychotic teenagers into overkill weapons and thinking it's a logical thing for a formal military.

Sadly, the Gundam pilots themselves seem to fulfill that issue. Heero bugs me due to the ragdoll nature of his body which wouldn't be so bad if he didn't literally look like a rag doll. I find it difficult to believe the guy has the strength to walk around never mind rip himself free of medical bonds and then survive a rapid descent down a cliff face. Same issue later when Wufei is sent flying from his bike and seemingly isn't even fazed.

Some of this I can excuse because of that interview where the creators admitted they were acting on what was cool and entertaining rather than logical but at times it just crosses into ridiculous. That one episode in particular seems to be my bane, since Heero waking up and somehow being able to recite the room, floor and building.....oh come on!

I like the subtle thread of how Zechs has tried to pass on his views of war and honour in a practical way and the soldiers that have taken it to heart come off as good people rather than one note Zechs obsessives. I've actually noticed that, at least in the Japanese version, there's some very clever cuts to make lines match up in intriguing ways. A good example is the back and forth with Walker, with him and Zechs believing through logical conclusion that a Gundam is coming despite the commander barking otherwise. It works well to create the tension the soldiers of the base must be feeling as they wait for confirmation of the enemy.

The animation really seems to have improved since V and G. I'm not sure if this team was just more creative at using techniques to hide budget but there does seem to have been a clear raise with a better use of tones and shadows.

Like all of the watches I'm doing I'm watching the show subtitled but I can't help but prefer some of the dub voices. Saffron Henderson's Noin and the dub Doctor J for example.

I'm only 5 episodes in right now but it does really make me wish they'd continued the TV MGs. The Katoki designs are nice but after starting with TV Wing they really should have alternated. Maybe it's a piece of nostalgia talking as I can be very critical of the 5 Gundams but I think they deserve the spotlight, especially as the HGs could be greatly improved on.

[LightningCount]

Glad you've taken on this mission! I'm not sure what you mean by "dry." The early episodes are a mixture of intrigue and fast action, IMO. Personally, I rather like the sense of confusion and slow development mixed into the first few episodes. As the viewer, you kind of piece it together amid some fun set pieces.

I think that G-Gundam had some really nice artistic touches to it, some perhaps better than Wing, but Wing really does have an impressive use of light and shadows and such. They create a lot of mood and a world that feels used and tangible. It feels like a more realistic future world than 00 on the whole, and the OZ/Alliance elements you've mentioned certainly add to that. Even with all the fantastic elements in Wing, the sense of setting and history in this show, where you see the development cycles of MS and armies and see a world that's more like our own, it somehow feels more realistic and grounded than UC. That atmosphere is one of my favorite things about Wing.

I can see why the fantastic elements of the Wing pilots can be awkward, but this sort of thing has happened in past Gundams. Zeta Gundam's Amuro plane crash/jump comes to mind. And in the end, it's anime, and one expects some amount of "anime flair." I think some of the background material suggests that Heero at least had some artificial modifications done to his body, but some of that stuff should have been made clearer if this series had had its cancelled "Episode Zero" episodes focusing on characters' pasts. (I can't believe they never made an OVA at least to make up for those lost scripts). From the loose adaptation we got in manga form, those add a good deal to certain characters, especially Wufei. It also explains some of Relena's weirder lines.

(EDIT: Oh, I think Heero's awareness of his surroundings likely relates to him having cased out facilities in the area on a previous trip to Earth where he set up St. Gabriel as a fallback hideout in Episode Zero. It's an exaggeration, but it helps to explain things a bit).

As you watch the series, something to pay attention to is the use of multiple threads. In most Gundam series, you're locked aboard rival flagships. With Wing, you have five pilots, Zechs, and numerous others that allow you a 3D view that covers a lot of ground in a short amount of time. Some of the incidental side-stories, like Episode 12, have an amazing amount of depth for a single episode, and really build the world with the characters. Wing does something that no other Gundam does to this extent, and that is separating the main characters to subtly develop them on their own. They rarely become a "team," and only do so for their own reasons. In fact, much of the series is about them finding a reason to exist when their roles are altered or distorted, and that's powerful stuff.

I agree that the TV MS had a more grounded feel than the Katoki redesigns. That was always an awkward thing about all this.

I'll be interested to see your future thoughts.

[Strike Zero]

I actually tried to do this a few years ago but fell off. I can see why. The first 3 episodes are pretty dry and it's not until we're introduced to Noin and the Tallgeese that I think the show starts picking up better speed.

The same exact thing happened to me a couple years back -- I found the first few volumes of the show on DVD at a flea market and got pumped, like, "Yeah! I'm gonna rewatch Gundam Wing and re-live my childhood!" That endeavor ended up falling to the wayside after about three episodes due to insane boredom -- I think I might have literally fallen asleep in the middle of watching them. After that I just could never be assed to get back to it.

It is on my list of things to do, but in the meantime I'll have to sit here and wonder how it was that I managed to get hooked on the show for a while longer.

[mcred23]

The same exact thing happened to me a couple years back -- I found the first few volumes of the show on DVD at a flea market and got pumped, like, "Yeah! I'm gonna rewatch Gundam Wing and re-live my childhood!" That endeavor ended up falling to the wayside after about three episodes due to insane boredom -- I think I might have literally fallen asleep in the middle of watching them. After that I just could never be assed to get back to it.

I guess that makes me feel slightly better about making it six or seven episodes in before that feeling hit me in my attempt at rewatching Wing two years ago. Part of that was due to being very familiar with the first four episodes thanks to a local Blockbuster having them on tape (And my renting that probably a half dozen times back when Blockbuster and tapes were things), but even the ones after that felt kinda boring (Comparing this to shows I had marathoned in the weeks prior, ZZ, V, X, and Turn A).

Although, reading this thread (Among other things) does have me feeling the urge to maybe give it another try if I have the time...

[AmuroNT1]

Nuts to you guys, I was able to rewatch this thing no problem.

And yeah, the Eng vs Jpn for this show is a mixed bag. For me it's REALLY hard to pick between, say, Toshihiko Seki or Scott McNeil as Duo, because they're both awesome and suit the character equally well. But of course, each version has its own "claw your ears off" character: for the dub it's Septum, for the original it's Master Long. But I think I said all this back when I participated in Gundamn!'s roundup for Wing a few years ago, so I'll avoid repeating myself further.

[HellCat]

Comparing the 'realism' vs 00 is interesting to me for a few reasons. Watching Wing it seems to suffer from the good old speculative Gundam technology dating, with the computers looking all circa 95 and Zechs getting intel via print out. I actually think 00 handled this better since they researched up and coming technology and the result is a setting I think will date better. We'll see how that goes when I clear the series in between but for the far future Wing certainly looks pretty 1995.

As for actors- can't believe I forgot David Kaye. I think Treize has inconsistent development (he backstabs his way to the top then starts whining about honour and respecting the pilots he used?) but at least Kaye's portrayal makes the turn more believable. He plays the role less as clear antagonist and more as someone who is simply opposing the Gundam pilots. When dub Treize starts talking about the loss of life and avoiding pointless battles, I can believe it.

[Amion]

I really enjoyed the first three episodes, actually. I could not call them dry by any stretch of the imagination. Oh well, to each his own I guess.

I admit I kinda wish I'd watched the japanese version, it seems there's a lot of different aspects to enjoy about both it and the dub.

[HellCat]

There's just not alot happening it seems. Plus you have to put up with Relena's fake friends who fawn over her constantly. I genuinely laughed this time when Heero tore up the invitation because it summed up my response to how artificial Relena's friends were.

[LightningCount]

Comparing the 'realism' vs 00 is interesting to me for a few reasons. Watching Wing it seems to suffer from the good old speculative Gundam technology dating, with the computers looking all circa 95 and Zechs getting intel via print out. I actually think 00 handled this better since they researched up and coming technology and the result is a setting I think will date better. We'll see how that goes when I clear the series in between but for the far future Wing certainly looks pretty 1995.

Sure, but that wasn't what I was getting at. Gundam 00 goes the other way, saying we'll be 2001: A Space Odyssey with how "clean," "sterile," and "empty" most of its environments are. That comes off as more "artificial" and less "lived in" than what we see in Gundam Wing. Granted, some of it is just attention to environmental detail by Wing's background artists, but there's no way things are as clean as 00 shows, especially when there are still conflicts. I mean, not all technology and feng shui is going to go the Apple route, and different aspects will evolve at different rates, creating clashes and contrasts, as Wing shows, even if from a 1995 lens.

There's just not a lot happening it seems. Plus you have to put up with Relena's fake friends who fawn over her constantly. I genuinely laughed this time when Heero tore up the invitation because it summed up my response to how artificial Relena's friends were.

Well, circles of friends can be like that, so it's just showing reality. But in regard to what's going on, I feel Wing gets a lot more done in a shorter amount of time than most series. For instance, I like Gundam 00 Season 1, but comparing its first 13 episodes to Wing's, you see that a lot more happens/changes on the macro and micro levels in Wing, because each episode in multi-pronged in its focus of what's going on with the world.

You know what's ironic so far in this thread, is that one of Wing's classic criticisms was that it was too fast-paced. Maybe attention spans have changed, and now it's too slow? In any case, I found it fine. Though, maybe what's bothering you is that there are too many threads running at the same time, as opposed to one main character thread pushing you toward an obvious goal? If you prefer a centralized storytelling of point A to B--like, get White Base to Earth--that could perhaps result in a feeling of something being "dry," because you're not emotionally connecting with that easy-to-feel goal.

[Amion]

Comparing the 'realism' vs 00 is interesting to me for a few reasons. Watching Wing it seems to suffer from the good old speculative Gundam technology dating, with the computers looking all circa 95 and Zechs getting intel via print out. I actually think 00 handled this better since they researched up and coming technology and the result is a setting I think will date better. We'll see how that goes when I clear the series in between but for the far future Wing certainly looks pretty 1995.

Sure, but that wasn't what I was getting at. Gundam 00 goes the other way, saying we'll be 2001: A Space Odyssey with how "clean," "sterile," and "empty" most of its environments are. That comes off as more "artificial" and less "lived in" than what we see in Gundam Wing. Granted, some of it is just attention to environmental detail by Wing's background artists, but there's no way things are as clean as 00 shows, especially when there are still conflicts. I mean, not all technology and feng shui is going to go the Apple route, and different aspects will evolve at different rates, creating clashes and contrasts, as Wing shows, even if from a 1995 lens.

There's just not a lot happening it seems. Plus you have to put up with Relena's fake friends who fawn over her constantly. I genuinely laughed this time when Heero tore up the invitation because it summed up my response to how artificial Relena's friends were.

Well, circles of friends can be like that, so it's just showing reality. But in regard to what's going on, I feel Wing gets a lot more done in a shorter amount of time than most series. For instance, I like Gundam 00 Season 1, but comparing its first 13 episodes to Wing's, you see that a lot more happens/changes on the macro and micro levels in Wing, because each episode in multi-pronged in its focus of what's going on with the world.

You know what's ironic so far in this thread, is that one of Wing's classic criticisms was that it was too fast-paced. Maybe attention spans have changed, and now it's too slow? In any case, I found it fine. Though, maybe what's bothering you is that there are too many threads running at the same time, as opposed to one main character thread pushing you toward an obvious goal? If you prefer a centralized storytelling of point A to B--like, get White Base to Earth--that could perhaps result in a feeling of something being "dry," because you're not emotionally connecting with that easy-to-feel goal.

I find myself agreeing with you more and more, Count. My issues with Wing lie elsewhere, mostly in how the fights are conducted and how I simply have come to dislike the Gundam designs barring the Wing Zero and Epyon. As for the world and story, reading this thread makes me realize that when I look at a Gundam show, I always search for the same things that remind me Wing's atmosphere. I believe a lot was going on in the first three episodes, and frankly I would say attention spans changing either from maturity or what have you, are mostly to blame, that and we must remember that those complaining of boredom were rewatching, rather than viewing for the first time.

It reminds me of the MAHQ reviews, where Chris originally said the first ep was cluttered, yet after subsiquent viewing, he changed his opinion. It seems that many shows these days tend to have a lot going on, versus more linear focus in previous shows. Orguss still fresh in my mind, it had a lot of political shenanigans, but stayed on a single track, rather than hurling it all in the viewer's face at once.

I will say that after already knowing what happens in the show, Wing can get pretty bland. A lot of its SHOCK moments like cliff jumping suicidal stoics and fifty freshly slaughtered Leos to add to the already long innumerable pile of fallen mook suits gets stale. Harkening to my issues with Wing's fights. Some people love this kind of battle, some don't, so for those in the latter, maybe their boredome stems from lack of combat stimulation, without even the tell-tale suspicion the unexpected might happen to surprise them?

[HellCat]

I don't see anything with Relena's supposed friends imitating life. That situation, and Episode Zero furthers this, is about Relena suffocating under them. The way they cheer and praise her simply isn't natural and Episode Zero makes it clear they choose this kind of behaviour while ignoring the reality of the world. It even comes up in the next episode, Party Night, where Relena is now charged up by her encounter with Dr J and takes an active role during the attack.

As for the thing about Wing moving too fast- you're missing the point when most say that. Wing covers April-December in a single year and before the end tries to wedge in several ideas from the earlier UC shows (with EW later taking a dose from ZZ and V itself). In less than a year we see the world reformed several times. Zechs is probably the best example because he starts the show as an MSG era Char clone and ends the show as the CCA incarnation. A journey that took Char about 14 years takes Zechs about 9 months.
That's generally what people mean with that criticism. That the show starts off slow and steady and then suddenly burns through so many revolutions.

[Amion]

I don't see anything with Relena's supposed friends imitating life. That situation, and Episode Zero furthers this, is about Relena suffocating under them. The way they cheer and praise her simply isn't natural and Episode Zero makes it clear they choose this kind of behaviour while ignoring the reality of the world. It even comes up in the next episode, Party Night, where Relena is now charged up by her encounter with Dr J and takes an active role during the attack.

As for the thing about Wing moving too fast- you're missing the point when most say that. Wing covers April-December in a single year and before the end tries to wedge in several ideas from the earlier UC shows (with EW later taking a dose from ZZ and V itself). In less than a year we see the world reformed several times. Zechs is probably the best example because he starts the show as an MSG era Char clone and ends the show as the CCA incarnation. A journey that took Char about 14 years takes Zechs about 9 months.
That's generally what people mean with that criticism. That the show starts off slow and steady and then suddenly burns through so many revolutions.

Ooooh, you were talking about the pacing. That's true. I like the multiple factions, but White Fang especially never got the build-up it needed. And there's no excuse for Zechs. Hmm, if I wasn't already busy with several other shows I'd rewatch Wing myself, it's been almost as long as Destiny for me.

[LightningCount]

I will say that after already knowing what happens in the show, Wing can get pretty bland. A lot of its SHOCK moments like cliff jumping suicidal stoics and fifty freshly slaughtered Leos to add to the already long innumerable pile of fallen mook suits gets stale. Harkening to my issues with Wing's fights. Some people love this kind of battle, some don't, so for those in the latter, maybe their boredome stems from lack of combat stimulation, without even the tell-tale suspicion the unexpected might happen to surprise them?

I could see that being an issue, though somehow I'm still largely amused by the variety of scenarios that happen on-foot or in mobile suits (The on-foot action stuff--sneaking, gunfights, hand-to-hand, vehicle chases, wild stunts like jumping out of a building, etc--is rare in Gundam; probably Wing, G, and X do it the most and most effectively).

With the MS fighting, I get the criticism, but I think sometimes people focus a little too much on the Leo trash-fest. Yes, it happens. And yes, some of the animation is overused, especially in the early episodes. However, it does an effective job of establishing the difference in technological power and showcasing how the global arms build-up is fueled. (And you see the shoe on the other foot when the Gundams find themselves struggling, and in some cases, defeated. Ironically, some of those defeats are done politically, thus creating a meaningless irony to all the super-powered destruction they had wrought. The sword defeated by the pen, so to speak).

And while a lot of Leos/etc are trashed, there are often interesting set pieces or scenarios involved. Just to name a few (and there are many): Episode 3's traditionalist commander's use of tanks and a blimp in contrast to the Specials with their Aries; Wufei using the enemy's own space laser to destroy their cargo in Episode 4 or taking an Aries and ramming it through a command helicopter in Episode 12; or Duo's invisible raid of an OZ transport in Episode 32. Within all the Leos falling apart, the list of memorable MS creative and/or shock moments is quite large.

Also, while there are a lot of nameless grunts, some are named, like Walker, Audo, Trent, Bundt, Nanaki, Alex, Mueller, Acht, and have memorable appearances or bouts with their own passionate beliefs about the world--whether it's making an independent nation in China during the Alliance's breakdown, defending the honor of the Specials, desiring a promotion from Romefeller, wanting to test a MS' limits, etc. Even the grunt in Episode 2 loyal to Zechs with the Cancer MS lays some hurt in a creative way on Deathscythe with its claw grab/torpedo combination to the face. I would say where Gundam Wing succeeds best is a sense of duels. There's not a lot of traditional military battles in here, though they do manage to squeeze those in, too, which is admirable (OZ or the Alliance factions fighting amongst themselves or rebels in side-stories that most series would never take the camera lens off the Gundams or flagships to show).

But the close-quarters weapon focus on the Wing Gundams makes for a lot of choreography you don't often see in Gundam. And unlike the recent 00, where rivals like Graham or Ali constantly (regrettably) retreat like Team Rocket just when things are getting good and then become sort of irrelevant to the overall plot, a lot of OZ's men viscerally fight to the death when it counts, and Zechs really goes all out and stalemates the Gundams more often than not. He may have won in Siberia for all we know, and he had Heero (albeit a weakened Heero) dead to rights in Antarctica. The confrontation between crazy Quatre and Heero and Trowa using the Mercurious and Veyete also stands out, as they try to use a combo of specific offensive and defensive powers meant to counter the Gundams against the Wing Gundam Zero, which is more powerful than the aforementioned Gundams. In that, you have specific tactics, personal stories, and MS development history rolled into one duel.

...Oh, and I could make an decent excuse for Zechs in the below:

I don't see anything with Relena's supposed friends imitating life. That situation, and Episode Zero furthers this, is about Relena suffocating under them. The way they cheer and praise her simply isn't natural and Episode Zero makes it clear they choose this kind of behaviour while ignoring the reality of the world. It even comes up in the next episode, Party Night, where Relena is now charged up by her encounter with Dr J and takes an active role during the attack.

As for the thing about Wing moving too fast- you're missing the point when most say that. Wing covers April-December in a single year and before the end tries to wedge in several ideas from the earlier UC shows (with EW later taking a dose from ZZ and V itself). In less than a year we see the world reformed several times. Zechs is probably the best example because he starts the show as an MSG era Char clone and ends the show as the CCA incarnation. A journey that took Char about 14 years takes Zechs about 9 months.
That's generally what people mean with that criticism. That the show starts off slow and steady and then suddenly burns through so many revolutions.

With Relena's friends, I just meant that people, even "friends" can be artificial and insincere in life. Especially, I'd imagine, in privileged circles where you're supposed to act a certain way. Relena's ability to break away from this is an interesting sub-plot.

Regarding the timeline, I can see the UC on cliff notes ordeal. However, to say that Wing does it verbatim would be a great exaggeration, and in some cases, it cuts out some of the meandering fat from stuff like ZZ. (Not everything or every episode that happened in those entire 14 years was vital to Char's Counterattack). The White Fang development probably feels the most rushed (especially with Episode Zero left out), but on the whole, the rapid transformation of people's views and the state of the world in such a short time is not unprecedented.

Look at the repeated cycles of tragedies or revolutions in our own world. There can be coups after coups in weeks or months time, or less, leaving people confused and changing their views in short order. (Zechs is a far different wounded soul than Char; he doesn't have any large ambitions. He starts out a soldier wanting revenge, then gets his revenge and finds his life empty, so he goes to challenge the Gundams as his bogeyman. From those challenges, he finds a purity of purpose that he wishes he could have, and decides then that he will be a protector of the world--be what he perceives the Gundams are to the colonies, but to Earth--and try to reestablish his family's peaceful kingdom through his sister. When that's destroyed and his sister essentially joins the enemy, he has nothing tangible to protect, and he basically becomes lost and disillusioned. White Fang finds him in this state, and uses his anger at the world to forward their goals, which he takes on as his own with an all-or-nothing twist. I'm not saying points weren't inspired by Char, but he's definitely not Char. He's his own man).

Overall, I think Wing makes its pacing work for what it's trying to accomplish--a search for meaning and peace in a chaotic world that is always changing. Because they focus on so many factions and globetrotting characters big and small, you feel like you've spent a very long time in its world as the viewer. It even switches between events in the Earth and the colonies, rather than having the traditional one-way journeys of many traditional Gundam stories, that leave one or the other behind. And honestly, if UC highlighted a WWII scenario in just one year, I don't see why AC can't encompass a condensed scenario for an uncertain post-Cold War world. It's not perfect, and some series do one element or another better through a specific focus, but I still find Wing the most interesting and complete tale in the Gundam universe. Right or wrong, it's one of the bars I still find myself using when watching or reading mecha stories.

[Amion]

You make a great deal of good points, Count, and I have to thank you for giving me coherent words for how I felt about Relena's friends. It came off to me as only typical that they would treat her in such a way, and frankly I never had too many issues with her as a character. I found her annoying only about the time she became Queen of Sanc Kingdom, and when she became 'Queen of the World' I could only respect her for actually impressing people with her views. She reminds me of how Lacus was supposed to be, but more believable, perhaps the blue hair. She did get under my skin, but her character was defined properly enough that it didn't matter if she was inherently wrong with her arguments.

I will admit that the battles between relevant characters and mobile suits is good, I think my issue is, as Dark Duel laughed so uproariously over, I am gullible to pretty lights like a moth to lantern. I enjoy well designs machines (by my standards) and to see them trashing each other is why I'm here today, and thankfully wise enough now to understand the faults Wing displays beyond its flashy fights. I loved how the improvisations were done, but the truth is that besides any named pilot, the battles get tiring the second time around. First watch, it's awesome, second watch, you have to really, really, really love the show to get by without at least a twinge of a yawn.

Granted, there's so many good details Wing does that this is a real tragedy for me. The Mobile Dolls and Virgo are some of my favorite mobile suits period. I love the Planet Defensors, they're my favorite defensive system. The subplots with Traize hating them, and their creator attempting to seize power with them is a highlight for me.

Nevertheless, I think the show being over the top in some cases and blatantly unrealistic kills its rewatch value for me. I feel I've only just now realized this is what I have wrong with Wing. Whenever I think back to it, it's almost always with fondness and "ah, the good ol' days", but simply cannot bring myself to enjoy it the same way, because I know what's coming.

Overall, I think I'm going to break a personal rule and start rewatching Wing as well as its sister show, X. They both offer unique perspectives, and along with the Crossbone Manga (original), this is shaping up to be a very speculative period for my Gundam fanlife.

Unfortunately, Zechs simply cannot be forgiven, nor can the writers. His ways of thinking are just too abstract and obviously forced. If he were a character like say, Traize, who is totally original, none of us would be complaining quite as bad, if at all. But his progression is Char-fastforward, as some here like to mention (who said that again? Can't remember), and that feels grating. Char clones are fine if the mask and red suits are just classic esthetics, but if they follow such an absolute routine to copy Char's development, then it gets dull, very, very fast. Almost insulting. Zechs was the first Charclone, so he at least gets off on that unique position. My wish is that we had gotten no period where he was basically in Quattro mode. If he had gone straight to White Fang, I think I could have taken it more seriously....I'll see about that when I rewatch it though.

[Seraphic]

(Oh no, it's Seraphic! Run!!)

I don't really get these "Zechs = cliff notes Char" comparisons. These characters are written in completely different contexts. Char's character changes to suit the needs of the individual show/movie he is in. He just does everything to serve himself, and it's pretty evident that he's just an egotistical douchebag who accomplishes jack squat. He is a racist that talks down to Earthlings, spouting pretentious crap like "their souls are weighed down by gravity". What does that even mean? In UC, people in space fight like dogs, too. He is also a pilot who pretty much never manages to never defeat another ace or win significant battles.

Zechs, on the other hand, is an actual decent human being. He sees the good in people fighting on both sides of the conflict. He admits when he feels he is not good enough. He has a sense of humility. He has strong morals, but is lost in knowing what he should do (instead of telling other people what they should do.) He obviously cares a lot for the soldiers he commands and how his battles are conducted. When Relena and the Sanc Kingdom fall, he loses faith in his beliefs and resorts to drastic measures. Yeah, it goes by a little fast (and off screen) but why is that hard to believe?

9 months is nothing for changing a person. If I went through the absolute amount of bull shit that I did in 6 months that nearly killed me, then I can believe Zechs changes as much as he does in 9 months. And hey, I wasn't even fighting a war! I didn't watch my home country get burned to the ground.

Also, what's wrong with a condensed version? What matters is EXECUTION, and for me, Zechs is done better, and he comes without all the BS that Char does.

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I agree that GW does have sour points. Some of the things the characters do is just plain silly. They try really hard to make Heero look cool, but I just laugh at it now. Being able to control your own brainwaves is ludicrous. He is great at basketball and horsemanship?? He is also a psychopath that clings to the bottom of moving automobiles on the freeway.

It IS silly, but sometimes you just have to laugh at yourself. You don't survive long on the internet if you don't.

The animation is really dated and the stock footage is very obvious. You can't win 'em all. But at least the stock footage looks dynamic and awesome. (But painful for the Leos, lol.) Aren't you at least glad that the stock footage doesn't make your blood boil like SEED's lazy-rainbow-burst-shot that cheapens every fight? It kills 30 pilots at a time who could have had some lines or something....

The English dub can be clumsy at times, but it has extremely good moments, too. The JP dub has a stronger average rate of performance, and its subtle tone fits the show better, but it loses any distinguishing features, like Heero just sounding like a normal teenager instead of an emotionless soldier. Also, no epic deliveries in the JP dub.

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Wing's strengths outweighs its weaknesses, I think. You just have to pay attention and see them. During rewatches, people get turned off thinking, "I already know this part!" You know what? Then look closely and find something about it you haven't seen yet. That's how I keep things interesting for myself.

I think the reason Wing has such a great setting and sense of history is because you can actually observe the impact of the existing world and its history. Different factions and countries interact and talk to each other. Soldiers have pride in their militaries. Factions fight and destroy each other. Factions have in-fighting. The rich and noble have parties, having pretentious talk like they are invincible. The citizens are helpless and get caught up in the battles. You get a sense of what motivates soldiers and see where their allegiances lay, such as with the Treize faction and Zechs's grunts. The strong sense of tradition affects a lot of character decision.

The reason this works is because the Gundams are not actually the center of universe. The world outside of the Gundams matters. Even when the Gundams are attacking, OZ only viewed them as a minuscule threat. OZ's main concern was overthrowing the Alliance, and then later it was establishing control over the colonies. Rommefellar's main threat was the Sanc Kingdom, not the Gundams. And NONE of these factions could be taken down by killing one guy, which was why the Gundams are actually as powerless as they are. All over the place there are small guerrilla factions fighting to oppose the superpowers, such as Sally's guerrillas in China or the factions that Heero and Quatre join before going to Sanc Kingdom.

On the other hand, take Gundam 00 as an example: there are countries that exist, but they merely merge to oppose CB. They may as well have not existed. Kathaaron acccomplishes absolutely nothing. You meet grunts from both ALAWS and Kathaaron and watch them die, but you don't give a shit about them because they just don't feel sincere, unlike Zechs' men and the Alliance soldiers who are desperate to save themselves with their out-of-date tactics. And then, the Innovades are defeated by killing off Ribbons.

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The reason I really like all the battles is because there is a sense of progress behind all of them, even if there IS stock footage.

When the Gundams attack OZ or the Alliance, you can see how scared they are. You can see how hard they are trying to survive against an enemy they don't know how to defeat. You can see them come up with tried-and-true strategies that fail against an unconventional foe. You can see just how much freaking damage is being dealt in every battle. People who are trying very hard to survive die off. Entire bases and armies are wrecked. When Trant is testing the ZERO system, you get to see a struggle of man and machine and see how this strange system works. In almost every battle, something interesting is being brought to the table.

In Zeta, you see the main cast get into scuffles every episode, but it feels pointless and annoying because you just watch beams fly across the screen for five minutes, then both sides retreat, resulting in nothing. In 00, the CB fights with weirdo Graham or the douchey Innovades for a while, then both sides retreat, feeling like no one tried really hard, and it all results in nothing. In SEED, you watch Kira cartwheel around for 15 minutes per episode, but he never manages to really kill anyone of significance. The Druggies never should have survived as long as they did.

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The cast is extremely balanced and well-written. To be honest, most of Gundam's main characters are SO dramatic and dysfunctional that I find it borderline retarded. How in the hell does one person have that many character flaws and have that many tragic things happen to them in the span of a year?! Kamille alone: dysfunctional family, orphanned during show, accidental pilot, conflicts w/ adults and authority, morality of war, rival pilot, stops dumb bitch from bombing a moon colony, kills insane newtype girlfriend twice (TWICE!!!!), freaks out and becomes desensitized to war, mind-raped, etc. And yet, barely ANYTHING happens to any of the other characters. It just doesn't make sense to revolve the universe around one boy. The exact same formula is repeated to death in every other Gundam, and it's lame. Yes, I'm making sweeping generalizations here, but just bear with me.

Wing does the right thing and splits up the cast to give everybody screen time and development. The plot, drama, and character traits are distributed evenly to everybody.

Heero deals with the reality of being a killing machine and having everyone rely on him. Duo is an orphan who confronts his relationship with the people he is trying to liberate and the hardships of fighting alone and being outcast. Trowa deals with a sense of home and dedication to the mission. Quatre has dysfunction in his family and watches them die, goes crazy, and then has to deal with the repercussions to doing something horrible. Wufei tries to fight a war while maintaining his morals. Zechs and Treize are like Char, but split in two coherent halves: an honorable soldier out for revenge and a charismatic political leader. And so on....

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The thing that I absolutely love the most about Wing is its sense of tragedy. And yeah, this will sound strange at first, given that there is nearly no character death, but just hear me out.

Gundam is traditionally a tragic franchise, and it is done through character death. Parents die. Girlfriends die. Senpai dies. Loved ones die. Friends die. Innocents die. Fellow soldiers die. You get the point. This thing is, it's been done so many times that it just becomes a trope (Doomed Girlfriend, anyone?) and becomes stale. Why would I want to see the same damn story device over and over? It is old. VERY old.

Wing deals with different kinds of tragedy and spends a lot of time developing each one.

The most prominent theme is failure. Working hard, but losing anyway. The Gundams fail to stop OZ. Heero self-destructs and the pilots get scattered to the wind. Wufei loses to Treize, first in battle, and then morally as he kills Treize. Trowa fails to be a good soldier. Zechs and Relena lose Sanc Kingdom.

edit: The second most important theme is being lost or not knowing what is the right thing to do. It happens to all of the pilots and especially Zechs. Zechs seeks out a cause and the Gundam pilots are often lost when their goals and enemies are not clearly defined for them. While I think this theme is responsible for the 'slow and meandering' plot towards the middle of the show that people often complain about, I very much appreciate it. It rings true to real life; everybody deals with this at some point in their lives. Life can be horrible when it is vague and you don't know what to do or if you are going about things the right way.

Being alone. The pilots all start off solo. Their mission is basically impossible, and they're doing it alone. Duo is betrayed by his home, the colonies. Quatre has to leave his family to fight in his Gundam. Trowa has never known a family or friends.

Being committed to death. Heero self destructs his normal suit in ep1, but it fails to kill him. He self-destructs Wing Gundam, willingly throwing his life away. He says his life is cheap. Sally fights even though she'll probably be wiped out. In EW, they discuss 'losing battles' where they fight merely to prove a point, but know they will probably die.

Committing atrocities. Heero accidentally murders the Alliance pacifists and spends an entire arc making amends for it. Quatre loses control and destroys colonies and nearly kills Trowa. It traumatizes him and he is nearly unable to confront use of ZERO system again. Zechs is prepared to commit the 'sin of purging humanity' in order to further his goal of total pacifism. (Also, don't you love the cast for being responsible human beings who own up to their own mistakes?)

Watching the world around you go the wrong way. Quatre's father tries to stop his colony from becoming militarized, and he loses his life trying to stop them. His last words of honesty with Quatre really hit home for me, and I'm always pretty messed up after this episode. Wufei tells Master Long the clan is crazy for agreeing to take part in Operation Meteor, going off so they don't have to destroy themselves. Wufei also sees ESUN's total pacifism fail with the rise of Mariemaia.

Wufei loses his wife. He loses his entire clan. It traumatizes him so much that he forces himself to live his life with difficult rules in order to avoid creating the same tragedies.

Having no childhood. When Heero and Quatre land back on the Earth, there is a scene where they are on a beach with a pair of greyhounds. They almost have to make Quatre play, as though the world had no place for happiness anymore. The pilots are forced to grow up so fast, they never get to do something as normal as playing fetch with a dog. This scene tears me up pretty hard.

Losing faith in your beliefs. Quatre turns on his gentle nature and sets out to destroy the colonies. Zechs becomes disillusioned by Sanc Kingdom's fall and abandons pacifism as a mechanism for creating peace. He instead orchestrates the ultimate blood bath.

Dirtying yourself to further the cause. Heero is just a weapon, no longer living like a human, saying it is he who 'fights longer than anyone else'. Zechs believes he is too bloodstained to lead the Sanc Kingdom and leaves it to Relena. Noin admits that she must live in the shadows in order to protect the Sanc Kingdom. How many times have you ever felt like you had to cheapen yourself in order to make your life a little better or to change something?

You know...just...all of that. It's just so much more true to real life and nuanced. Death is tragic, but it is low hanging fruit, and sometimes can be ham-fisted. The way that other Gundam shows treat character death as the only viable mechanism for tragedy just feels immature in comparison.

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That's what I think, anyway. Thanks for bearing with me.

[Arbiter GUNDAM]

That's the longest Gundam Wing essay ever!! :0

[BrentD15]

Dang.
What a review/rant.

EDIT: And also, forgive me if I sound insulting, but you sounded like someone who has a preference for Gundam Wing over others.

[Seraphic]

That's the longest Gundam Wing essay ever!! :0

I just added in a point I had forgotten. Now it's even longer! >,<

And also, forgive me if I sound insulting, but you sounded like someone who has a preference for Gundam Wing over others.

It doesn't sound that way, so I take no insult from it. =o Don't we all have our own preferences, though? I do try to give everything I watch a fair shake. GW just happens to have a lot of substance that resonates with me, and I try to discuss it from time to time with others.

So...does anyone have a particular opinion on my writing? Or is it that all I've done here is out myself as a crazy person? I'm so embarrassed.

Thanks for reading it, anyway. It can be a lot of work.

[harotype]

Can I sound like the girl I am, Seraphic, and say that was lovely and give you a hug?

Wing is my first Gundam love, and even after falling so hard for the more messy/'realistic' pace and portrayal of 0079, I'm still really fond of GW, its respect and hope and optimism, its deconstructions of UC tropes, its mecha! (and cast!), and its fine-tuned dramatic machinations. (I think it's held up excellently well over time.)

Thank you for reminding me why, and elaborating at far greater lengths than I could have...

Yes, failure IS a theme; that's why it's reworked as "Glory of The Defeated".

[LightningCount]

That's the longest Gundam Wing essay ever!! :0

I just added in a point I had forgotten. Now it's even longer! >,<

And also, forgive me if I sound insulting, but you sounded like someone who has a preference for Gundam Wing over others.

It doesn't sound that way, so I take no insult from it. =o Don't we all have our own preferences, though? I do try to give everything I watch a fair shake. GW just happens to have a lot of substance that resonates with me, and I try to discuss it from time to time with others.

So...does anyone have a particular opinion on my writing? Or is it that all I've done here is out myself as a crazy person? I'm so embarrassed.

Thanks for reading it, anyway. It can be a lot of work.

...I don't know...you came late to this thread, and if you combine my posts in this thread into one, I'm in the ballpark for the essay award. We did have some overlapping points, after all...HEERO YUY!

Don't be embarrassed. It was all coherent, pretty concise given the topics involved, and it shows a sensitivity toward humanity and the human story, which Gundam Wing really plays to. I think it's great that a story and artwork can evoke such analysis both in and out of everyday life, while also entertaining. Honestly, I thought you did an amazing job hitting so many of the specific points above. You even brought up the scene with the dogs, which I've mentioned before in another thread. "Quatre, play with the dogs!"...and later in that episode, Count Townsend, who was supposed to hand them over for execution, says, after learning that they can only exist to fight, "I feel sorry for those boys." That's just powerful stuff in context to everything they've been through. It speaks to the repressed humanity of Heero that Relena and the Gundam Pilots have started to bring out of him, and it speaks to Quatre's need for help and forgiveness. And Quatre's father's parting words of equal idealism and self-defeat are, too. The central "relationship" of Heero and Relena is also an interesting one of compare and contrast, as they each have the thing the other lacks and feeds off of--Heero the inhuman strength and boldness, Relena the human desire, belief, and vision for peace.

I don't know if I think of all of the exaggerations as silly, personally, as I think they highlight the extremes of the characters, who have been forced into these guerrilla roles. Besides, it adds a dash of swashbuckling fun and a lot of personality to affairs. But when you think of Gundam Wing coming off of UC and G-Gundam, both interesting in their own right, it really did a great job of capturing a lot of the well-developed elements while also charting its own course. This may sound a little huge, and understandably offensive to UC diehards, but Gundam Wing is almost an anime series that stands on its own, like Cowboy Bebop or Trigun. I think that there is a certain flair and accessibility to Gundam Wing compared to most of the Gundam universe; then again, I recently canvassed a number of anime fans who did not even know about it. The only mecha show they really liked was Code Geass.

Now...what's it going to take to get an OVA series of Episode Zero done with care???

I loved how the improvisations were done, but the truth is that besides any named pilot, the battles get tiring the second time around. First watch, it's awesome, second watch, you have to really, really, really love the show to get by without at least a twinge of a yawn...Zechs was the first Charclone, so he at least gets off on that unique position. My wish is that we had gotten no period where he was basically in Quattro mode. If he had gone straight to White Fang, I think I could have taken it more seriously....I'll see about that when I rewatch it though.

I wonder, do you choose to marathon Wing in big chunks? Because I don't know that it was meant for that kind of viewing. I usually get more out of most series by seeing no more than an episode at a time. I can see how watching tons of early episodes of Leos getting trashed and political intrigue could become tiresome. But I find myself always popping in episodes from time to time and really being blown away more often than not about how much is going on in terms of art and story.

With regard to Quattro...I don't know if Zechs ever fully got there. But maybe I'm mistaken.

Anyway, apologies, I hope we're not on the verge of derailing the thread. Hellcat had some very good and thought-provoking observations at the start of this, and he should be allowed to continue. He started the thread, after all.