The Official Gundam: The Origin Manga Thread

[latenlazy]

I'm going to get into this fun little tangle for just a few points, if you gents (and ladies?) don't mind.

So did Japan, which briefly flirted with democracy before the rise of militarism - in fact, the use of a previously benign state ideology to start justifying military aggression against neighbours more closely resembles Imperial Japan than Nazi Germany. The Nazis used ideology to justify their actions, sure, but it was fairly sinister from the outset; the preceding Weimar Republic had none of the state ideology that Nazi Germany had, where Imperial Japan had had its ideology for centuries.

I have some historical bones to pick here. 1) The Imperial Japanese ideology did not exist for centuries. It emerged around the time of the Meiji Restoration. 2) You'd be hard pressed to convince people from China, Korea, and Russia that Japan's ideology was benign from the outset and gradually evolved into something sinister. The Sino-Japanese War occurred not long after the formation of the Empire of Japan, and the Russo-Japanese War occurred not long after that. Japan began occupation of its fellow countries relatively soon after it established itself as a formal modern nation state.

Actually, that whole foreign policy is really where Zeon mirrors Imperial Japan the most. Their attitude towards Spacenoids is very similar to how Japan viewed the rest of Asia: on the one hand, they claimed they were fighting to unify Asia against external powers, but in practice sought to put themselves in power and slaughtered countless civilians in the process of doing so. It's not an EXACT parallel, but it is intriguingly close.

At the same time, the foreign policy of Imperial Japan was pretty similar to the foreign policy of Germany. Part of Hitler's ideology was the unification of the Aryan race. The whole point of Hitler's anti-semitism was to engineer an enemy to rally against. It's really hard to say that Zeon's inspiration was drawn exclusively from Japan and not also Nazi Germany precisely because those regimes had so much in common. There's a reason why we fit them together into a closely clustered set of regime types in political science.

[Zeonista]

I've seen the graphic novels at Barnes & Noble in HB format. They look really great, everything is laid out nicely, and the pages are big enough to enjoy the art. I am hoping that a softback version is released, though.

[Kratos]

Thanks for clarifying, laternlazy! I'm always glad to deepen my own historical understanding.

The Imperial Japanese ideology did not exist for centuries. It emerged around the time of the Meiji Restoration. 2) You'd be hard pressed to convince people from China, Korea, and Russia that Japan's ideology was benign from the outset and gradually evolved into something sinister. The Sino-Japanese War occurred not long after the formation of the Empire of Japan, and the Russo-Japanese War occurred not long after that. Japan began occupation of its fellow countries relatively soon after it established itself as a formal modern nation state.

By "ideology", I guess I meant the view of the Emperor as a descendent of the gods and thus the Japanese people as special, which I always thought was around for a long time - like, since their earliest contact with China, when Japan wrote its own history for their visitors, and a quick Wiki check is telling me that it's been around for MILLENIA (though it's definitely possible that I'm misunderstanding something here). I realize that the specific ideology of Imperial Japan developed much later on, but that early stuff certainly served as the basis for it, much like Deikun's original theories served as the basis for the Principality. That's also what I meant by "initially benign".

At the same time, the foreign policy of Imperial Japan was pretty similar to the foreign policy of Germany. Part of Hitler's ideology was the unification of the Aryan race. The whole point of Hitler's anti-semitism was to engineer an enemy to rally against.

I suppose, but the whole idea of lebensraum feels a bit different than the Co-Prosperity Sphere, in that one sought territorial expansion for its own idealized people and one nominally sought to protect a set of nations from outside powers while actually just wanting to conquer (Nazi Germany making no such claims of working for the benefit of the countries it invaded). Of course, Zeon slaughtered the other Sides wholesale rather than conquering them, so I realize that it's not an exact parallel. I just think that Zeon's justification for doing so sounds more Imperial than Nazi.

It's really hard to say that Zeon's inspiration was drawn exclusively from Japan and not also Nazi Germany precisely because those regimes had so much in common. There's a reason why we fit them together into a closely clustered set of regime types in political science.

True, and I don't think that its inspiration is exclusively from Imperial Japan, I just think that the regime is closer to it than to the Nazis (if only by a little) or at the very least owes more to it than many people recognize.

I am hoping that a softback version is released, though.

Eh, I doubt it. Part of the reason Vertical went whole hog with the hardbacks is because they weren't going to make it a mass-market product anyways, and the deluxe format seems to be as much a selling point for many as the story itself. Maybe if it sells REALLY well they'd consider it, but I can't imagine them seeing a paperback release as being particularly profitable - especially with it being free on that Comic Walker service.

[latenlazy]

By "ideology", I guess I meant the view of the Emperor as a descendent of the gods and thus the Japanese people as special, which I always thought was around for a long time - like, since their earliest contact with China, when Japan wrote its own history for their visitors, and a quick Wiki check is telling me that it's been around for MILLENIA (though it's definitely possible that I'm misunderstanding something here). I realize that the specific ideology of Imperial Japan developed much later on, but that early stuff certainly served as the basis for it, much like Deikun's original theories served as the basis for the Principality. That's also what I meant by "initially benign".

I wouldn't consider those to be the same ideologies, even if one repurposes the other as material for its own construction. After all, if we consider them to be of one lineage of ideologies, it still wouldn't distinguish Imperial Japan from Nazi Germany too much, because Hitler did something very similar by rooting his ideology in a long history of the Aryan people. In fact most ideologies, especially ideologies of nationalism, take this approach. They leverage historical arguments to establish and sustain their legitimacy, often deliberately re-framing and distorting facts liberally along the way.

I suppose, but the whole idea of lebensraum feels a bit different than the Co-Prosperity Sphere, in that one sought territorial expansion for its own idealized people and one nominally sought to protect a set of nations from outside powers while actually just wanting to conquer (Nazi Germany making no such claims of working for the benefit of the countries it invaded). Of course, Zeon slaughtered the other Sides wholesale rather than conquering them, so I realize that it's not an exact parallel. I just think that Zeon's justification for doing so sounds more Imperial than Nazi.

Nazi Germany DID in fact make such a claim of working for the benefit of the countries it invaded. Remember, Hitler claimed that he was unifying ALL Aryan people. Meanwhile, the Co-Prosperity Sphere wasn't really believed by anyone pushing it. It was propaganda to try to legitimate Japan's conquest to both the occupied population and its own domestic audience, but the logic of the conquest was purely motivated by an economic needs meant to benefit Japan alone. Japan was a resource starved country that needed oil, iron, and land to sustain its growth. The concept of the Co-Prosperity Sphere itself didn't emerge until the 1930s well after Japan had taken its slice of China and Korea after the first Sino-Japanese war and later in the Manchurian Incident.

True, and I don't think that its inspiration is exclusively from Imperial Japan, I just think that the regime is closer to it than to the Nazis (if only by a little) or at the very least owes more to it than many people recognize.

I actually disagree, but I think trying to split the difference here probably misses the point entirely. It matters less which fascist dictatorship Zeon was based more off of than the fact that it was a very well conceived and realistic fascist dictatorship.

[Kratos]

It matters less which fascist dictatorship Zeon was based more off of than the fact that it was a very well conceived and realistic fascist dictatorship.

Yay! We agree on this!

To expand on something mentioned a bit earlier, has there ever been anything written about civilian life in the Principality? Even THE ORIGIN is centered around military academy life. It seems to be one of the bigger gaps in Gundam's world-building - anything in guidebooks, manga, novels?

[latenlazy]

It matters less which fascist dictatorship Zeon was based more off of than the fact that it was a very well conceived and realistic fascist dictatorship.

Yay! We agree on this!

To expand on something mentioned a bit earlier, has there ever been anything written about civilian life in the Principality? Even THE ORIGIN is centered around military academy life. It seems to be one of the bigger gaps in Gundam's world-building - anything in guidebooks, manga, novels?

There IS one conversation where the difference does matter, and that's in a discussion about Mobile Suit Gundam in Japanese pop culture. I think someone mentioned earlier one interpretation of Zeon vs the Federation as being a comparison between Imperial Japan vs Contemporary Japan. It's a comparison I personally don't think is valid, but in conversations like that it may be useful to really dig in deep and split hairs, or as deep as you can dig, given that the UC is ultimately still a fictional construct.

[Deacon Blues]

Seems Vertical failed to QC yet another release... "Liia" and "Moore" for Side names as well as falling prey to translating バンチ (which is 番地) as "bunch" much like I argued back in the day. -_-;

[Kratos]

Wait, I thought "bunch" WAS the official translation of バンチ. I didn't know consensus had changed on that - is that why I've been seeing "Colony 30 Incident" instead of "30 Bunch Incident" here and there?

It was so common before that it's not really surprising Vertical went with it. What are Liia and Moore supposed to be?

[Dark Duel]

I'm betting at least one of those should be "RIAH" - Side 6, per 0080.
Dunno 'bout Moore. Might be "MUA", Side 4 IIRC.
Disclaimer: I can't personally vouch for the latter spelling

[Zeonista]

Wait, I thought "bunch" WAS the official translation of バンチ. I didn't know consensus had changed on that - is that why I've been seeing "Colony 30 Incident" instead of "30 Bunch Incident" here and there?

It was so common before that it's not really surprising Vertical went with it. What are Liia and Moore supposed to be?

"Bunch" was used for a long time, so I suspect some people are still using it. I forget sometimes and use it too. Saying "Colony 30" is more accurate. I suppose "Moore" refers to Muua, the name of Side 4. "liia" is refering to Riah; the Riah Republic which is Side 6's independent government at the time of the One Year War.

[Deacon Blues]

番地 literally means address or house number. So the shift to "Colony 30" or what not happened a while back I think when Zeta was being released.

Yes, that is supposed to be Reah and Mua. Although Gundam Thunderbolt does have "Moore" drawn on the helmets of the Mua Brotherhood gang.

[Kratos]

I mean, I guess when it comes to the colony names, there isn't actually an official spelling or a naming pattern that might explain what the names are supposed to be. Yeah, it's Reah in 0080, but Japanese works consistently used "mispellings" like Zion for a long time, so what do you rely on? It's all incredibly arbitrary, and while it's kinda hard to see that after one has been used for years, there's actually not much reason why Vertical is wrong here.

And something to consider - they've been really really good at terminology translation up until now. Whatever issues they've had with localization, the actual in-universe jargon has all been accurate. So I don't know if this is really an issue of quality check, so much as it is a quirk of the translation of fictional words.

[Deacon Blues]

I mean, I guess when it comes to the colony names, there isn't actually an official spelling or a naming pattern that might explain what the names are supposed to be. Yeah, it's Reah in 0080, but Japanese works consistently used "mispellings" like Zion for a long time, so what do you rely on? It's all incredibly arbitrary, and while it's kinda hard to see that after one has been used for years, there's actually not much reason why Vertical is wrong here.

Actually, there are official spellings... they've been toted for years now. Plus, that's what the American Gundam Official website was for: official schtuff. Depending on the publication, a vast majority of the names and what not have been streamlined over the years... Zion doesn't really pop up all that often anymore and even Sunrise has acknowledged that it is "Zeon".

And something to consider - they've been really really good at terminology translation up until now. Whatever issues they've had with localization, the actual in-universe jargon has all been accurate. So I don't know if this is really an issue of quality check, so much as it is a quirk of the translation of fictional words.

Actually, they haven't. There have been considerable blunders from the get go. I mean you have stuff like "Principality and Federation together slaughtered...", "terraforming" a colony (kinda hard to do), calling a beam weapon (the saber) a rifle, messing up the Komusai reference, etc. I haven't dove into the second, third and forth volumes to see what's up, but I can only wonder...

Do I make a bigger deal of this then I should? Probably. Why? I've been staring at this stuff for almos t ten years now. It bothers me that there is zero quality control for these sort of things. I'm not sure whether it is my own anal retentive nature given that I work in scanlations that makes me strive for it, but when I plunk down a hefty price on some merchandise, I'd like to get what I'm paying for... not some ragtag "whatever goes, goes" sort of material.

But, it's licensed solely for profit, which is barely what Vertical is making on this I suppose... *shrug*

[MV6000 the Ace Zeon Pilot]

Finally finished reading Volume V and it was awesome. This volume was very informative in the political atmosphere of the time before the war.

[Deacon Blues]

I'm quite interested, now that I think about it, in seeing how they render Gihren's speech in the Loum arc. It goes as follows:

Side 2 has been scorched by the hellfire of the heavens! Its divine retribution to those who rebelled against the Spacenoid's great cause. Is wrong to shed tears for the innocent citizens of Hatte who died?! THAT IS ONLY NATURAL! My people of Zeon, we are of profound compassion! Lament for those lost and pray for their souls!　At the same time, my people, turn your wholehearted hatred towards the evil Earth Federation!! The spacenoids are revolting!　Such foolishness! The Hatte leadership instigated and caused us to be hostile! The Federation is our only true enemy! My brethren! The one hundred fifty million glorious people of Zeon...　Fight for the future!　Let us proceed as one who does not falter and stand united! Let us advance forward　together until our day of victory!!

[toysdream]

The spacenoids are revolting!　Such foolishness! The Hatte leadership instigated and caused us to be hostile! The Federation is our only true enemy!

I think the verb forms - and the punctuation - threw you off a bit here. The literal translation is more like "The Federation itself, which turned the spacenoids against each other and instigated Hatte's foolish leaders to oppose us, is the true enemy!"

-- Mark

[Deacon Blues]

Haha I never bothered to go back and look at that. I pulled that from one of my old GundamWatch posts from eons ago when the chapter first came out

[Zeonista]

Everyone improves with time & practice, except for lazy me. Deacky's old translation reminds me of some fansubs where the "say what" reaction comes up from stuff that sounds OK in isolated sections but falls apart as complete speeches. Something everyone should keep in mind about the translations by everyone at all levels.

[Kratos]

Finally got my copy of volume 5. This is right around where I stopped Translating For Fun, so while I'd closely skimmed it (and the rest of the series), it all feels pretty new from here on in. Exciting!

Some thoughts I had, while reading:
-Wow, did Deikun ever come off differently than I imagined. I always figured that he took a much more peaceful, anti-war stance towards relations with the Federation, and that was part of the reason that Degwin had him killed - I don't know why I thought that or where I read it, but it was definitely always something I took for fact until now.

-I could have sworn that Roselucia had a line about Deikun being a college professor. Was I imagining things, or was that something lost in Vertical's translation?

-The tragedy of the Deikun kids works really well, I think. Seriously, right in the feels. I can see why this is such a popular part of the series. Poor Astraia.

-Basically everything with Ramba and co. is really great, too, and I especially love the escape scenes. It all kinda masks the fact that I still had no idea what their deal was by the end of the volume; there's this vibe of "Getting the band back together", but as what, exactly? Were they a former military unit? If so, why did they break up? I don't recall seeing a lot more of them in "To War" or "Loum", so I get the sense that I may be forever in the dark on this.

-Whoever tried to write the accents for those kids on Texas colony should really just stop.

-Bit of a minor nitpick, but it would have been nice to see some Zeon propaganda playing in the background or something. It would have shown well how omnipresent it is and would have fed well into Real Char's desire to go.

-I also didn't know that Casval left under the pretense of attending school in Loum. Not that that holds up long, but still.

-I always thought that Side 3 was called the Republic of Zeon under Deikun and the Principality under Zabi rule. I knew about it being called Munzo from what little I did translate of this volume, so I was curious about how that fit in; I guess I thought it was an alternate name, or a Federation euphemism, or something? It'll be interesting to see why the Zabis bother to shift the name again, especially considering that they're pretty much the Principality that we know and love by the time "Char" enters the Academy.

-So another Side - I don't remember which, but it might have been Loum - is referred to as an "autonomous republic". Does that mean that Zeon isn't the only independent Side in THE ORIGIN, or is this a Vertical slipup?

-I really found the writeup by Yas fascinating, and I wish we got more extras like that - some insight into the approach being taken to THE ORIGIN. It certainly beats being told how amazing Yas and THE ORIGIN are every volume; while I agree, they're basically preaching to the choir.

-Also a minor nitpick. but would it have killed Vertical to translate the manga panels in the preview section?

All in all, a great read. The dialogue has plenty of Vertical-isms throughout, but I'm largely used to those by now and they only occasionally take me out of the story. Can't wait for the next one!

I'm quite interested, now that I think about it, in seeing how they render Gihren's speech in the Loum arc.

I think the thing I'm most interested in seeing them tackle is the second verse and chorus of Ai Senshi in volume 8 (and, by extension, the bit of Meguriai in the final chapter).

[Zeino]

Does anyone else get the feeling Yas is implying that Zeon was a distorted and twisted movement for its very beginning that would have started a war against the Federation even if the Zabis never came to power? That flashback of Zeon Deikun has him come across as a madman with messianic complex who's may have likely approved of the actions that the Zabis, Haman, his son and Full Frontal would do in his name. In fact, what we see of the original members of Deikun's revolution who are not the Zabis, has them come off as raving fanatics (Jimba Ral and Deikun's ex-lover who was giving care of Char and Sayla.)