Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

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Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Chris » Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:26 pm

Chaos Theater Ep. 108 - "Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War"
- Download Now: 64 kbps - 96 mins, 3 sec. (1:36:03) 44.0 MB

Segment Breakdown for this Episode:

01. Intro: "What We've Been Up To"
Runtime: 0:00:01 - 0:21:00

02. Discussion: "Bvs & CW"
Runtime: 0:21:34 - 1:32:19

03. Outro: "Internet whoring"
Runtime: 1:32:52 - 1:35:41

Superheroes are angry at each other in this latest episode of Chaos Theater. We dig into the latest entries of the DCEU and MCU: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice and Captain America: Civil War. There's no mailbag this episode, and watch out next episode for...something.

Music Featured in this Episode:
"mrsaturn" from GAME CHOPS Volume II by DJ Cutman
“Is She With You” from Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice by Hans Zimmer & Junkie XL
“Men Are Still Good” from Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice by Hans Zimmer & Junkie XL

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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by yazi88 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:06 pm

Great episode, I was looking forward to your guys thoughts on these movies.

Although I'm curious to know how you guys ranked Civil War in the MCU movies so far?

Did you guys notice how they put secretary Mercy Graves from the DCAU in this movie only to completely waste her character? But then again.... a lot of things were wasted in Dawn of Justice...
Jimmy Olsen too... who most people thought was a female Jane Olsen in Man of Steel... only to get wasted in just a few min....

I think the only thing Jesse Eisenberg's Lex got right was that cherry flavored Jolly Rancher is the best flavor... but that itself also has nothing to do with Lex Luthor...

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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Chris » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:02 am

Yeah, Jimmy Olsen and Mercy Graves were so insignificant and wasted that I forgot to mention them. For me, The Winter Soldier still stands as the best MCU movie. But since I've seen that multiple times, I'll have to watch Civil War a few more times to see how it ranks, but for now it's top tier.
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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Turn-A Binker » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:12 am

Haven't listened to it yet, but was the Ultimate Edition discussed/reviewed?

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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Chris » Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:14 pm

Turn-A Binker wrote:Haven't listened to it yet, but was the Ultimate Edition discussed/reviewed?
No. When you asked, I told you that we would be reviewing the theatrical version.
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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Turn-A Binker » Mon Jul 04, 2016 4:42 am

Gonna skip this episode then.

Not really a "complete" review of the real thing.

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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Chris » Mon Jul 04, 2016 8:36 am

Turn-A Binker wrote:Gonna skip this episode then.

Not really a "complete" review of the real thing.
I really have to ask why you care so much, because honestly the fanboy tones are super strong. WB chose to release the theatrical cut to the world and has to live with it. Why should they get a mulligan? Why is that not "complete" enough for you?
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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Turn-A Binker » Tue Jul 05, 2016 4:06 pm

Chris wrote:
Turn-A Binker wrote:Gonna skip this episode then.

Not really a "complete" review of the real thing.
I really have to ask why you care so much, because honestly the fanboy tones are super strong. WB chose to release the theatrical cut to the world and has to live with it. Why should they get a mulligan? Why is that not "complete" enough for you?
Its not a fanboy thing, Chris. I feel this way for any movie that has a director's cut, or a "true" version that wasn't shown in theaters/to the audience until later. Especially if there is a movie that was panned when it came out, and then there is the real version that the studio didn't show, and you're fighting for people to see that real version because its actually really good.

I mean, Chris: have you ever seen something that made you go "good lord, that was bad" then later you saw the director's cut and went "oh my god, THIS WAS A BRILLIANT MOVIE! What the hell (insert studio here)"?

Batman v Superman has examples from its own film, the director and one of its stars: Snyder and Affleck. Both have had versions of their movies that were given extended/directors cuts, and were better praised. For Snyder, obviously its Watchmen, but I have heard people say the extended cut for Sucker Punch, while still a mess, is better appreciated for what he was going for. Affleck has the director's cut of Daredevil: the PG-13 version was badly executed, didn't make sense, and had the love story that's cheesy. But the R rated director's cut, not only is the love story gone, but we have a subplot (with Coolio BTW! Wow, lol) that ties together nicely with the main story; not only does it make sense, but we see Matt and Foggy actually do Matt and Foggy stuff. In other words, if you didn't care if they made a sequel or not after seeing the PG-13 cut, you would want them to make a sequel after seeing the R rated director's cut.

Heaven's Gate is another example, Blade Runner has them; Brazil and Lifeforce's directors cuts were shown internationally and were more successful than in America, mainly because they showed an edited/hacked up version here. This was back in the day when you had directors get their movies taken away from them by the studio, unless you were a James Cameron; whom by the way, has released director's cuts (extended cuts, special editions, whatever you want to call them) with Aliens, Abyss, and T2. With him, you cannot watch the theatrical version after watching the extended cuts, because all you can see is what's not there. Such as Ripley finding out her daughter died: that was cut, and yet that adds more depth to why she bonds with Newt; or in T2, when Sarah and John reset the T-800's chip, and Sarah is about to destroy it, but John stops her, and convinces her to listen to him since he is suppose to be the future leader. The scene works because Sarah hates the Terminators, so she needs a transition scene, instead of just accepting him like she did in the theatrical cut.

So you see, this isn't a “fanboy” thing. Its showing that there can be a better version of a movie out there, and just “living with the theatrical cut” as you said isn't an option, as much as it is a stupid thing to say. So going back to BvS: the Ultimate Edition is the real movie. It enhances the story, you get better motivations for the characters, the African sequence is better told in how Superman is framed, Superman is given more screen time and more saving the day moments, and above all, BvSUE is a Superman movie with Batman as the key character; that makes more sense given the film's story, rather than have it be a Batman movie with Superman being a key character like it was in the theatrical cut.

That's why I wanted you to watch the Ultimate Edition rather than the theatrical cut, because it was obvious you were not going to like the theatrical cut. And if you still didn't like the movie after watching the Ultimate Cut, that's because AT LEAST YOU SAW THE REAL MOVIE.

Also, even though WB would still be blamed for not releasing the 3 hour cut, taking a risk instead of hacking it up like they did; you wouldn't blame Snyder for what he was trying to do, and feel sorry for him especially with the lose-lose situation he has now on Justice League.

Did I answer your question?

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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Chris » Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:05 pm

Turn-A Binker wrote:Did I answer your question?
You said a lot of words, but no, you didn't answer my question at all. An alternate cut of a movie existing doesn't negate the fact that a theatrical cut was released. The theatrical cut is the "real" version of the movie that received a worldwide release for mass consumption. If WB was so confident in the Ultimate version, they should've released that instead. Now this looks like a lame effort after the fact to improve the standing of a critically panned movie.

And yes, what you are doing is totally a fanboy thing. You sent me a PM imploring us to review this "real" cut, which is about the fanboyest thing ever. Why should you care what version we review? You have absolutely zero stake in this movie or how we discuss it. But you want us to somehow give the movie a special pass and just pretend the theatrical cut doesn't exist and go with your magical unicorn "real" version. That's ridiculous, and your dismissal of our episode for not reviewing your "real" version is insulting. Yes, the director's cuts of the movies you mentioned like Blade Runner and T2 can improve them, but that doesn't make a review of the theatrical version any less valid. If you're going to have the same attitude about alternate cuts when we review other movies, do me a favor and keep those opinions to yourself.
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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Turn-A Binker » Tue Jul 05, 2016 9:31 pm

No, the Ultimate Cut IS the real movie. Yes the theatrical cut exists, but it is an inferior version of said film. Fear and possible audience participation in watching a 3 hour film led WB to recut the movie, to which Snyder was shown to be sad of when conversations of the Ultimate Cut were brought up. A face supported by many who interviewed him.

There's history behind it. It's not a recut: the Ultimate Cut is the real vision of BvS. And people who have seen said UC, have strong opinions favoring it, even changed some if they hated the TC.

I've dealt with this before. If you don't have any knowledge of it, why question me?

And no, this isn't a fanboy thing. Stop saying that it is.

Frankly Chris, just what the hell happened to you? You use to be cool and the reason why I would list to an episode of Gundam@MAHQ (meaning if you weren't on, I'd skip that). But now, I'm wondering what changed. Did your girlfriend leave you? Did you lose money in the stock market? Do you want any french fries?!

Seriously, why are you acting like this?

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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by yazi88 » Tue Jul 05, 2016 11:20 pm

If this ultimate cut is supposed to be the real movie, why bother cutting up such supposed important material in the first place for the theatrical run. Do the extended uncut version of movies really make such a difference before? You really don't cut out major plot points from the main movie and add them on as a home release extra. Sure sometimes a couple of extra scenes are cut because of time saving for the theaters, but given how BvS is a pretty long movie to begin with, there were better options to cut out namely some useless Luther scenes and the pointless Lois investigation.

If anything this is a weakness on the director and the producers for the suppose edit that undermined the movie in the box office.

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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Turn-A Binker » Wed Jul 06, 2016 1:45 am

yazi88 wrote:If this ultimate cut is supposed to be the real movie, why bother cutting up such supposed important material in the first place for the theatrical run. Do the extended uncut version of movies really make such a difference before? You really don't cut out major plot points from the main movie and add them on as a home release extra. Sure sometimes a couple of extra scenes are cut because of time saving for the theaters, but given how BvS is a pretty long movie to begin with, there were better options to cut out namely some useless Luther scenes and the pointless Lois investigation.

If anything this is a weakness on the director and the producers for the suppose edit that undermined the movie in the box office.
More from the studio being afraid. Snyder, as I stated, came across sad that we were going to get the Ultimate Cut later, and had to bank their money on the version in theaters. Now with both cuts, you can see what Snyder was going for, and thus feel sorry for him because he's being blamed for something that he had no control over.

This happens, sadly, in the Hollywood industry. That's why you had stories, like I said, where the movies were taken away from the director, and later on we get their original or preferred cuts. Snyder is not at fault here, neither are the producers. They had to abide by what the studio said, which sadly, led to this.

The Ultimate Cut is the real BvS, as I've stated. Like for example, you brought up Lois' investigation being pointless: that's the case in the theatrical version, but more detailed and pays off in the Ultimate Cut, making it important.

BvS was designed as a 3 hour film and it works as such. Making it 2hr30mins doesn't make it work. Sure, I could see something here and there being taken out, but it still would've been close to 3 hours anyways.

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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by YokozunaBulldozer » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:19 am

From what I see, the big problem is not solely on Batman v Superman alone, but the whole DC cinematic universe being hellbent on trying to be like Marvel that we get something that lacks finesse as a result.
Thus the reason why I think Civil War crushed it(like a boss).
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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Chris » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:44 pm

Turn-A Binker wrote:Seriously, why are you acting like this?
Nothing happened to me. You're being a whiny, delusional fanboy defending this movie to the death for no rational reason that I can see. You just can't accept people criticizing your precious movie, so you're responding in kind like an angry fanboy would. The theatrical cut IS the movie, and no amount of you saying otherwise will change it. You can spend an eternity insisting that the sky is purple, but that doesn't make it true. Get over yourself and stop complaining so much about this Ultimate Cut.
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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Turn-A Binker » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:09 pm

Chris wrote:
Turn-A Binker wrote:Seriously, why are you acting like this?
Nothing happened to me. You're being a whiny, delusional fanboy defending this movie to the death for no rational reason that I can see. You just can't accept people criticizing your precious movie, so you're responding in kind like an angry fanboy would. The theatrical cut IS the movie, and no amount of you saying otherwise will change it. You can spend an eternity insisting that the sky is purple, but that doesn't make it true. Get over yourself and stop complaining so much about this Ultimate Cut.
I'M NOT A DELUSIONAL FANBOY YOU STUPID SON OF A BITCH!

Someone like that would've said the TC is great, and power to them, but if they went insane with it, sure. I'm not, I'm telling you the TC sucks, but you're treating the Ultimate Cut, or any director's cut, like a novelty which it isn't if there's a really good reason such as the backstory. Also, you can't seem to want to believe that the UC could be better, when it clearly is. So in other words, you're acting like a fanboy here, not me. You don't even have a leg to stand on, kid. I can't believe

How about this: you stop acting like a little bitch, and see the UC. If you like it, I won't do anything, such as being an ZOINKS who keeps posting "I told you so!" comments. If you hate it, I'll accept it, and move on in both cases. But until then, your review of BvS will be incomplete because it is just about the TC, and ignoring the UC and why it exists, which is VERY important I would think. And we wouldn't be in this discussion if you watched the UC, or better yet, just say
"theatrical cut only" on the episode title.

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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by The Fowl Sorcerous » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:24 pm

Ain't it funny how people think they can shout each other into opposite positions in matters of taste?

But yeah, I'd written off BvS after the only good things I heard about it came from noted idiots in my social sphere. When I heard about a recut coming out I knew I couldn't judge it without these sort of conversations.
I'm almost looking forward to watching this "definitive" version without any context of the original just to see if it's still lame on its own merits.

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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Mu La Flaga » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:30 am

You know what I've not said much in the CT threads lately.
But to add to the thread's discussion going on, which ended up being a comparisson of the 2 movies.
Since they were competing with each other in roughly the same time frame.

Batman VS Superman: I feel very mixed on, they had some interesting ideas, it wasn't all bad, Wonder Woman sorta stood out, Ben Affleck Batman was good, but the motives of some characters and thing was odd....I would like to give the movie a second chance with the Ultimate cut.
It doesn't fix all the issues for the movie, but from what I've heard it does help for some scenes and context.

Civil War: Man, I could sing the praises of this movie so much, everyone got moments to shine(wether in battle or just interacting with other Avengers), it was a great solid movie, I just enjoyed it from start to end the only weak part in a sense was Zemo at least how wasn't fleshed out more, nor got much of a defining look so to speak.

I think as it stands it's either Marvel's best MCU movie or CLOSE to being at the top of the pile for their movies.


I could go on about both of these movies longer, but trying to keep this post in the thread not overly long as I can.
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Re: Ep. 108: Batman v Superman & Captain America: Civil War

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:44 pm

Turn-A Binker is hardly out of line (except for the name calling. Chill out, dude). Snyder made the movie he wanted to make, which eventually became the Ultimate Cut, but the studio stepped in and forced him to change it into the theatrical cut, losing important scenes because he didn't have any choice in the matter.

Of course it's still valid to review the theatrical cut, but at the very least its lack of quality is more the fault of the studio rather than Snyder's. I have yet to see the Ultimate Cut so I can't say anything regarding its quality either way.

I thought the movie was okay. Definitely didn't love it anywhere near as much as I loved Man of Steel but it didn't piss me off or anything.

Superman is supposed to be the symbol of hope, yeah, but I think he has the right to be a bit upset when he does the right thing and a lot of people hate him for it. It's normal to have thoughts like "Why should I even bother?" in situations like that.
SpoilerShow
While they killed him off way too soon, I think it could work going forward. Maybe seeing him give his life will convince his haters that he was legit and inspire other powered people to become heroes to honor him. His part in the rivalry with Batman wasn't that good, though. Him being unhappy with Batman's brutal methods is fine, but in the end that didn't amount to much because he only fought Batman to save his mom.
Batman I think was really good. I'm fine with him killing people because really, Batman kinda has to. You can only hold a thug over a rooftop so many times before he stops fearing you because he knows you won't drop him. He's also older so I got the sense that he just doesn't care anymore. "I only shot the car. It crashed and blew up? Whatever, I had no control over that." His desire to go after Superman is understandable too. Remember awhile back I asked a mailbag question about how some heroes just can't be happy? Chris, you answered with how Batman is so paranoid when Catwoman once told him to "Hush" he thought she was connected with the villain Hush. So that he's worried Superman will turn bad and abuse his power is something he'd do (he famously made tons of anti-Justice League plans too).

The end of the fight also worked for me (I never realised their moms had the same name until then) since Bruce has never stopped being that 9 year old boy in the alley. Anything that reminds him of that moment would set him off, and then learning Superman has a mom humanized Clark and Bruce could no longer see him as just an alien threat.

Luthor was definitely too much of a clown, and Doomsday was really unnecessary, but I can see why they'd use him instead of Bizarro since Bizarro would be too silly for the tone they want (at least they alluded that the real Doomsday might be out there somewhere). The other main thing was that it did feel like a lot was cut out, so at least the Ultimate edition will fix that.

Civil War was by far the superior movie, of course, for many of the reasons you said. I never doubted the Russos and I think this proves they're more than capable of handling Infinity War. I do still like Winter Soldier more, though.
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