Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by krullnar » Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:09 am

Is it weird that I really don't care about this movie, its strange I love starwars but both this and ep7 really just don't do any thing for me. Now starwars rebels season 4 coming soon that I can get behind. Maybe its just marysueray or whiny little girl(Kylo Im a big baby) I just don't care for the new characters. I do like poe, poe's cool but everyone else is just meh. I'll see it as I see most scifi properties that come out regardless of my personal interest. Its aggravating its more starwars I should be excited but I'm not and it really peeves me off that its this way.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Zeonista » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:53 pm

I am still hyped about this movie, if only to see where it is going in explaining the new Not-A-Jedi order that will surely be created. Luke is now the sensei in Obi-Wan Kenobi's previous role. How and what can he pass on to rey to let her continue her balance. Or maybe, the move to a balance of the Force will not come from him, but from another source?

OTOH Snoke has his Knights of Ren, and they need to be introduced properly. Snoke has some real advantages on his side, and it would be great to see where he got them and how he intends to use them. I am also sure that Kylo ren wants a rematch and is determined to get it.

On the Big Picture side, the good guys once again are behind the curve despite a previous victory, and it should make for some interesting battles of words and weapons. In Rey's absence Fin & Poe will have to step into the breach and hold the New Order at bay.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Amion » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:38 pm

The supposed spoilers I've seen had better not be true. And so far it appears they are more and more sounding confirmed. If even half are true, then this movie will not be for me. I hope it's given a better reception. Heck, I hope the spoilers aren't true. But so far visual guides and stuff seem to be confirming them. >_>
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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Dark Duel » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:20 am

I am studiously avoiding any and all articles on the subject of the movie for now, because I definitely want to see it at some point and I'm trying to steer clear of potential spoilers. Word is that, from what little I've heard from pre-screening responses, the movie is substantially better than The Force Awakens. One thankfully spoiler-free opinion piece I read yesterday described it as the best movie since Empire - which is extravagant praise, given that in my opinion(and that of many others I've spoken to over the years) Empire is the best of the original trilogy.
But I am really looking forward to it.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Areku » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:34 pm

Gonna wait a few days before elaborating and going into spoilers, but even with intentionally keeping myself unhyped for TLJ, I was still immensely disappointed by the movie, as well as distracted by countless suspension-of-disbelief wrecking balls (usually the "how are so many of the characters so dumb" kind but there's also a scene that appears to break the mechanics of the Star Wars universe) and quite frankly bored. It had a few good moments and the lows weren't prequel-Anakin bad, but overall it was bland, flaw-riddled and too-clever by half.

I hate being a naysayer for Star Wars, but this was a bad movie. Will need a few days to really digest my feelings on it, but I'd tentatively say it's the second worst Star Wars film, falling between AotC and RotS.

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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Amion » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:22 pm

The physics break actually makes sense when studiously observing the physics involved. I've watched whiners shriek over it, but not shriek over the fact that it's based off something physically impossible, by our standards, to start with.

I really liked one post on another forum in particular that states the incident was very, very difficult to pull off and would be nigh impossible accept when in the exact circumstances for it to be pulled off. And I agree more or less.

And all responses I've ever seen are either LOVE, APPLAUSE! and... bitter resentment and fury. But as someone who enjoyed Phantom Menace and considers is almost as good as the original trilogy+Rogue One, and how many vocal people seem to despise all but one or two films in the franchise... I'll continue to withhold judgment. Right now, though, it seems my worst fears are realized. And I think a lot of it is Disney's meddling. I recall a Time article about TFA where they basically allude to numerous complaints my perhaps presumptuous mind ties with TLJ flaws. I doubt the director was alone in his decision making. The Mouse is doing exactly what I feared they'd do, take all charm from the series, slaughter the EU, piece it back together in a poorer imitation, and then pay sycophants to swoon over their creations with critical acclaim. Happened with Force Awakens, and it's happening now.

And, like TFA, some will love the movie, and some hate it. So who knows what I'll think. I'll probably end up loving all the parts everyone else despised, while finding the parts much beloved flat.

The only thing I must vent as far as potential spoilers is... a certain color isn't used, with a certain object known for select colors. The rage. the DISAPPOINTMENT. I will hate the director forever for this choice. *Sheds tear* Hoping it's not true, and I get my favorite color.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Areku » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:13 am

Amion wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:22 pm
The physics break actually makes sense when studiously observing the physics involved.
I'm not going to get into the debate over this in detail until Monday, but I'd be interested in seeing this strong argument for it. But I must warn you, however convincing it may've sounded to you, I sincerely doubt it will adequately address the innumerable and diverse issues introduced by the scene in question.
Amion wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:22 pm
But as someone who enjoyed Phantom Menace and considers is almost as good as the original trilogy+Rogue One
Personally, it goes RotJ >= ANH > ESB >>> PM > TFA > RO >>>> AotC >= TLJ > RotS

TLJ's lowest moments weren't outright painful like watching Christensen stumble through terrible dialogue, but with extremely limited exceptions it was a miserable combination of bland, boring and violent toward one's suspension of disbelief.

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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Amion » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:35 pm

At least you put Phantom Menace above the Force Awakens. I always had a soft spot for that one, despite the seemingly eternal hatred it receives everywhere.

It was on spacebattles forum, where most people were complaining like yourself about the mechanics issue. And several people pointed out various good logical assumptions, with one poster in particular giving a short but concise dissection of the scene, that clinched the debate for me, and explains why the Star Wars universe has not yet developed warfare around the concept. It's my eager hope that his explanation will make convincing sense when I see the movie Thursday. If not, then it was just Disney showing they are generally incompetent. The EU continues look more golden, especially the earlier novels.

Although I do know of another scene that defies suspension of disbelief that so far has no good explanation other than it was demanded by plot... *scowls at certain characters*

There was also a review that made the good point how TLJ basically smears everything TFA does or sets up, in one way or another, and thereby invalidates it entirely from a narrative perspective. Which is a shame, because if the movies are to always be in such conflict, that's bad.

It just goes to show Disney NEVER should have picked Jayjay to start with, and that once they did, he should have been allowed to remain at the helm of his own trainwreck trilogy. Putting others in charge only highlights everything that went wrong with the New Jedi Order series of books and its sequel sagas. Too many minds trying to direct the course of a story never ends well, especially if there's no higher authority than a tone-deaf committee, assuming there's even that much structure involved, and not just some small team of near-do-wells hired by the Mouse.
Last edited by Amion on Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Amion » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:43 pm

Whoops. Double post. Please delete.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Areku » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:20 pm

So are you gonna link to the defense or at least paraphrase it? Because right now what you're saying amounts to "somewhere in the world, there's a way to rationalize it"; that is, nothing.

I'm not about to scan through hundreds of topics hoping I stumble upon whatever convinced you about a movie you haven't even seen yet.

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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by domino » Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:55 pm

Episode 8 TLJ was an awkwardly bad movie which seemed to stem from writer's disagreement with several plot points in episode 7.

Several things made the movie a terrible watch:
1 - Mysterious force powers
2 - Luke's strange new personality/lack of motivation
3 - Kylo's strange "development"
4 - Fin's strange side adventure which was ultimately completely irrelevant
5 - No emotional reactions during reunions or revelations of a closed one's demise

Plot points I wish they expanded
1 - Snoke and his ambitions
2 - Why Kylo wants to "finish what Vader started"
3 - Knights of Ren
4 - Where was the lightsaber??
5 - Origin of the Jedi

It's likely that with JJ handling Episode 9 then some of the above 5 points will be addressed but which ones? Will he also dismiss Episode 8's plot points like his were dismissed in this movie? That'd be very disappointing.

Fortunately the space battles were glorious and the special effects were amazing to see on the big screen - but that's not what made us love Star Wars. In fact, we love it despite it having shoddy special effects.

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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by SNT1 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:12 pm

I'm assuming most here have seen it? because here's my thoughts.

SPOIlERS BELOW

Starting with what I like:
+The shot when Holdo did her last move was for the ages.
+The throne room Lightsaber battle was also well shot

What I didn't like (hoo boy here we go)
-Luke's characterization. All the build up in 7 just for him to toss the lightsaber aside? And please, being a Whedon quip-lord doesn't suit him. That's reserved for Tony Starks and Star Lords of Hollywood.
-Rey's lineage. All that buildup in 7 just for her to be a nobody?
-Snoke's death. All that buildup in 7 just for him to be lamely killed?
-Kylo Ren and the First Order; their backstory, actually. What did the Rebellion in Return of the Jedi win, exactly? What is their end-game? Clearly they're dark side users but how do they compare to the Sith? Unexplained.
-Canto Bight scene. Fake animal rights (who cares)
-Kelly Marie Tran's character. She's a bad self-insert fanfic character-tier, and I'm positive she's only there for the cast diversity quota.
-Benicio Del Toro's character. Why does he even have a stutter? It doesn't matter, he's a horrible version of Lando
-Phasma. A Boba Fett with a few more lines and a shinier armor. Who cares?
-Holdo. Yes, she was central to my most favorite shot in the movie, but why wouldn't she just tell everyone the plan, causing a mutiny?
-Speaking of mutiny, Dameron got off easy. He's my favorite character in the new trilogy but he's a bit of a tool here.
-Luke vs Kylo/FO. You're gonna kill him off anyway, why not just have him physically show up in Crait? Epic lightsaber battle cinematography, too bad it's fake and thus cannot be invested in it after the fact.
-Leia's Super man pose in space. WTF? That was bad.

TL;DR Rian Johnson shat over what TFA built up. I will need to rewatch I or II but this may be in my bottom 3 Star Wars movies. I hated it.
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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by domino » Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:33 am

SNT1 wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:12 pm
TL;DR Rian Johnson shat over what TFA built up. I will need to rewatch I or II but this may be in my bottom 3 Star Wars movies. I hated it.
Pretty much. It almost seemed like Rian didn't watch the previous movie or did it purposefully.

It seems that some fans are happy with the "twists" but some changes were inexcusable such as:
1 - Luke losing hope in himself, others and the Jedi Order
2 - Snoke falling for a cheap trick that never would've caught Palpatine
3 - No one caring that Han Solo died
4 - Yoda telling Luke to let go of the Jedi Order AFTER guiding him for previous decades on how to restart the Order

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Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Seto Kaiba » Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:01 pm

Let me begin by saying that I'm most definitely NOT what you'd call a fan of Star Wars. I found the first Star Wars trilogy an engaging and enjoyable science fantasy series, but the prequel trilogy and virtually all the Expanded Universe material I've been exposed to since then I would, in all fairness, have to say is some of the worst writing I've ever encountered. So much so, in fact, that I genuinely applauded Disney's decision to summarily bin all of the Star Wars Expanded Universe material up to that point and start fresh.

When my girlfriend dragged me out to see Star Wars: the Force Awakens, I came away feeling like the seventh Star Wars movie was a return to form. Well, more like a return to "form letter" to be honest. It was that kind of light, fluffy, utterly substance-less popcorn flick I've long since accepted is the new Hollywood standard. Episode VII took no risks, and it pushed no envelopes. It faithfully, some would say blindly, followed the plot structure right out of A New Hope... and it must be admitted that you can do way worse in terms of creative decisions. That film was immensely entertaining despite the fact that it spent an enormous amount of time on pandering to the die-hard fans with tons of in-jokes, references, and Harrison Ford's most disinterested-seeming performance to date.

Going to see Star Wars: the Last Jedi was a much different experience. It's clearly meant to be its trilogy's Empire Strikes Back, but it doesn't feel like it has a story arc the way Empire did. It invests so much effort into building up and then subverting expectations that it's basically Anticlimax: the Movie. It's got a couple good scenes, but when you connect the lack of payoff to all the build-up it feels more like the writers of The Last Jedi set out on some kind of Tite Kubo-esque attempt to troll Star Wars fans and disguise a movie that was built solely around a few effects sequences like Holdo's last ditch effort. It didn't do anything to build the mythos. It just sort of jerked the audience around, with side plots that lead nowhere and an array of allegedly-important characters being killed off as casually as nameless mook number 1138 with almost nobody seeming to care.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Dark Duel » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:17 pm

Overall, I enjoyed the movie quite a bit. I did have some criticisms, the biggest one being of that one early WTF??!!! scene...but I enjoyed the movie. Quite a body count, though, in terms of named characters...and yet the one casualty that ticked me off the most was a minor character who barely gets any lines and doesn't even get a name until 30-45 minutes after being killed off.
One other thing though...the entire scene of the...exchange over comms between Poe and Hux was absolutely bloody hilarious. Quite possibly my favorite part of the movie.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Amion » Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:00 pm

My utter lack of motivation to bother posting my thoughts until now should explain what my opinion of the movie is.

As to Areku, the simple explanation is that only something the size of the Raddits (or whatever it's name) can can pull off what we saw. It also DIDN'T go to lightspeed and then ram, but rammed during that transition faze of the jump, so while it was still accelerating into to Hyperspace... So no FTL rams, but something that functions close to it, being a kind of dimensional attack I guess.

Problem is, that still doesn't solve the basic problem those imbeciles at Disney created (Star Wars Rebels did the ram first). The question now is: WHY IN THE NAME OF SWEET REASON! Did. They. Not. Just. Do. That. With. ALL. The imperial/First Order/ deathweapons, hmm? Convention and established in-story rules have already been broken because Disney's decided ALL of the Legend's is worthless unless they say so. But even if the ram attack didn't break anything in the Star Wars universe's FTL consistency, it established a new tactical plothole bigger than that waste of planet Starkiller. WHERE ARE THE HYPERDRIVE RAM MISSILES? Where are the droid crewed suicide ships?

As for the rest of the movie, I don't even want to bother finishing this sentence. Just no. At least I got one LAST look at my emerald lightsaber, which actually has a functional grip placement. (Seriously the blue one is impossible to hold in a legit fencing match) And then we got a ludicrous scene of a bunch of walkers and the quarreling prep boys try to figure out how to blast open a metal door. Gee. Oh, stuff happened before that? Gosh.

I will admit that the scene at the start with the Dreadnaught was cool. And it would have been awesome with all the ... wait those bombers just... find new art designers. Please. Leos from Wing have a better track record than those worthless things. They're floating bombs with speed to make turtles look fast. Where are my B-Wings? Where are the cool space battles? I don't want to watch kamikazes kamikaze themselves without an ounce of effort on the enemy's part. Or worse, Napoleonic naval warfare with Star Destroyers.

So yeah, once I saw the movie I just wanted to forget it. It was every bit as bad as you said, Areku. And I must now try to likewise forget that my sister loved it and thinks it is so reasonable and intelligent and best movie ever. But she thinks the Prequels were the best and adores Jar Jar, so go figure. Sad thing is, my Nephew senselessly loves the trash also. I will likely have to watch the accursed thing again...

But now I have motivation to rewatch Rogue One, which at least had a good beginning and ending, with just some minor flaws compared the rubbish. It amazes me quite frankly that Disney managed to pull Rogue One off with such style.

As to the Legends getting Scrapped, Seto Keiba... well, you're right. It was a good idea to start over. Problem is, the Legends timeline worked very well for the immediate stuff right after Return of the Jedi on up to a certain point. The Empire and New Republic fought a war that played out in a consistent manner, with the Empire behaving like an actual political body. Imagine it! The Empire behaving like a galactic polity? Disney's answer in side material is terrible and ill-conceived.

The basic run-down of what happened between Return of the Jedi and Force Awakens is: the Emperor LITERALLY was the only thing keeping the Empire going, which is not sensible by any scrap of reason. The Imperial Navy, instead of defending their doggedly fanatically loyal star systems... agree to the Emperor's revenge plan and start using practical superweapons to murder their own resourceful worlds. ALL of them. Yes. Really. Apparently the Moffs, the governors mentioned in A New Hope, are ignored, and the Empire just dissolves and becomes a few measly Star Destroyers.

The measly remnant of Star Destroyers, SPACE warships one and all... go fight at Not!-Tatooine (Ok, I admit, there's probably a LOT of practical reason for there being many desert planets compared to habitable ones. But still), IN THE ATMOSPHERE, where they can't just jump to hyperspace and escape if needed. *Face palms*

Then, the New Republic is formed and Mon Mothma structures it to ensure a second Palpatine can never come to power. Including demilitarizing it. So no military. Just like in Phantom Menace. This part is actually very interesting and the only silver lining: they had a Pre American Civil War political dynamic (very, very vaguely, but same general climate) going on, whereby the Centrist Republic worlds didn't mind the Empire, and in fact preferred it. And the more independent-leaning worlds demanded that they keep power De-centralized, having suffered Imperial tyranny or just being plain freedom lovers. The Centrists wanted a more Supreme Leader.

The Centrists played Bolshevik and accused their rivals of trying to secede from the union, while they themselves were funding and readying the First Order military behind the scenes to destroy it. And then viola! Starkiller is finished and fires on Hosnian, killing the people who payed for it, as well as all the Centrist faction that supported the First Odor, err, Order. And Luke didn't train Jedi very fast and then Snoke has Ben kill them. Boom. Now go watch Ray Nameless. She's the REAL Chosen One and will do everything right!

And while Disney goes and milks the money cow, I will seclude myself to undergoing a pointless fanfic rewrite of the New Jedi Order saga from Legends. I thought it was where the Expanded Universe went wrong. Might as well turn it into a massive game of strategy and tactics on a galactic scale, since that will never happen with Disney. Rebels vs. Empire foreva, don'tcha know.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:46 pm

Amion wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:00 pm
My utter lack of motivation to bother posting my thoughts until now should explain what my opinion of the movie is.
Either that or an unusually-long post-holiday turkey coma.


Amion wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:00 pm
Convention and established in-story rules have already been broken because Disney's decided ALL of the Legend's is worthless unless they say so.
Given what I've seen of it, Legends IS mostly worthless... Disney's only mistake is being greedy enough that they didn't simply bin it all.


Amion wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:00 pm
But even if the ram attack didn't break anything in the Star Wars universe's FTL consistency, it established a new tactical plothole bigger than that waste of planet Starkiller. WHERE ARE THE HYPERDRIVE RAM MISSILES? Where are the droid crewed suicide ships?
Who knows? Maybe these things existed at some point in the past, and were banned by law or by treaty because they're massively, irresponsibly destructive?

(That's the reason that faster-than-light ramming attacks aren't used in the Star Trek universe... they were banned by treaty after being used several times to great effect in the Romulan War in the late 2150s, wiping out whole planetary biospheres with a single ship at relatively low warp.)


Amion wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:00 pm
As to the Legends getting Scrapped, Seto Keiba... well, you're right. It was a good idea to start over. Problem is, the Legends timeline worked very well for the immediate stuff right after Return of the Jedi on up to a certain point. The Empire and New Republic fought a war that played out in a consistent manner, with the Empire behaving like an actual political body. Imagine it! The Empire behaving like a galactic polity? Disney's answer in side material is terrible and ill-conceived.
Having read some of the stuff set in the wake of Return of the Jedi, I'd have to disagree... the Empire's kind of running on the same complete sociopathy as the First Order for most of it. It took someone like Thrawn to turn them back into an actual government and military, instead of just interstellar Disney villains doing it for teh evulz.
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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Areku » Mon Jan 08, 2018 1:49 am

Amion wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 1:00 pm
My utter lack of motivation to bother posting my thoughts until now should explain what my opinion of the movie is.

As to Areku, the simple explanation is that only something the size of the Raddits (or whatever it's name) can can pull off what we saw. It also DIDN'T go to lightspeed and then ram, but rammed during that transition faze of the jump, so while it was still accelerating into to Hyperspace... So no FTL rams, but something that functions close to it, being a kind of dimensional attack I guess.
Assuming an X-Wing masses around 10,000 kg (about as much as a partially-fueled F-16 and an easy number to work with), if it struck an object while traveling at "just" 2.16% lightspeed (a paltry speed considering hyperdrives are explicitly described as accelerating a craft to beyond lightspeed before they enter hyperspace) that impact would be as energetic as the Tsar Bomba detonation (the largest nuclear weapon detonated IRL, or 3125 Little Boys). At 99%, that would be ~2100x more destructive, even ignoring relativistic mass (since apparently Star Wars does). Just point a few X-Wing-sized missiles at... anything you want to kill, starting from the right distance, light the hyperdrive and strike with the fury of ~6.5 million Little Boys per missile.

"Only the Raddus" my ass. If hyperdrives could ever be as effective as depicted in TLJ (one ship destroying another ~800 times its size so spectacularly that it incidentally destroys several other ships its size in the process, and all with a "weapon" not optimized for the role and deployed from an as-you-found-it range), it's unconscionable that nobody's married hyperdrives (which already fit comfortably on high-performance fighters) to guided missile technology that's already been shown in several films, and that all space combat hasn't become centered around the use of these hyperdrive missiles.

Literally the only thing keeping that genie in the bottle (other than the assumption that literally every Star Wars character ever is a worse naval tactician than a 3-y-o playing with toy ships) was the assumption (supported by Star Wars as far back as actual dialogue in A New Hope when Han spells out the known terrible fates that can await hyper-faring objects with no suggestion of the equally-knowable results in realspace) that objects accelerating to/traveling through/decelerating from hyperspace could not produce a militarily-useful collision in realspace for some non-Newtonian hyper-physics reason, and TLJ just pissed that all away for a few seconds of spectacle.

I could talk about how interdictors don't actually stop the use of hyperdrives (all they do is exploit automatic safety features which can be and have been overridden), or any of the other arguments I've seen trying to defend/explain the ramming and why we don't see weaponized hyperdrives everywhere, but suffice to say they all fail.

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Re: Star Wars: The Last Jedi

Post by Zeonista » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:00 pm

To think that I, who saw the first Star Wars before it was a roman numeral, should have lived to see a follow-on movie greeted with widespread apathy, let alone overt hostility, is a marvel and a thing of grief to me. And I really didn't think it was a bad or mediocre film. It was excellently made, and it drew me into the story in a way that Attack of the Clones or Revenge of the Jedi never did. Every character got a moment of awesome, except for Hux & Phasma who didn't deserve it. As an anime fan and a guy who has played Star Wars games & RPGs since 1990 there was a lot to admire and relate to. Then last week a friend & I binge-watched the latest batch of Yamato 2202 and that most worthy anime showed us once again how the desperate heroic stand against the odds was really done. Damn....

Maybe it is because Uncle Zeo is no longer the shiny-eyed boy in the movie theater way back when, or even not so far back. I liked the rough transition story as the old guard is replaced on the run and the new guard seek to find their proper places. Hey, I am a Gundam fan, I know what transitional chaos can really be like! If only a remnant of a remnant can be saved, then the Resistance can still persevere and win! I suppose that staging the movie after the desperate escape might have been better received. But the dramatic tension of an honest-to-good crisis seems too good to let it slide.
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