If mecha fans can't get behind this...

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LightningCount
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If mecha fans can't get behind this...

If mecha fans can't get behind something like this, then what does that say about the genre's potential to expand?
My Mecha/Scifi Novels: https://www.goodreads.com/series/168677 ... -war-arm-x
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ShadowCell
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Re: If mecha fans can't get behind this...

man, why can't mecha fans just be a giant hive mind that automatically gloms onto anything with giant robots in it regardless of individual taste and idiosyncracy
dingosteeda
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Re: If mecha fans can't get behind this...

it almost makes me think of the book "They're Watching Over You". it was alright as far as a mecha war book goes. kinda mixed the big brother government idea with rebels and G gundam mechs (controlling them mentally rather than physically though)

if anyone is interested lol
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007QU ... k_ro_title
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Amion
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Re: If mecha fans can't get behind this...

The multi-paragraph overview of the story is enough to make me shudder. Not to mention that it bombards me with its arrogant claims of combining multiple genres if not all of them bar comedy and satire, I would say the main reason I was so turned off was the cluster ZOINKS of ideas it presents at once. Someone should tell the people who wrote this that throwing out more seemingly disconnected plot is not a good way to entice readers, at least not ones like me.

A pity, I want to see more mecha genre stuff out there, but it needs to be high quality so the reputation of the genre as a whole doesn't suffer. Granted, this is just my opinion, and one that hasn't been given the chance to read the book, but just looking at the false names of the characters, and story's brief but very hectic plot leave me questing why I should want to read it.
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LightningCount
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Re: If mecha fans can't get behind this...

Amion wrote:The multi-paragraph overview of the story is enough to make me shudder. Not to mention that it bombards me with its arrogant claims of combining multiple genres if not all of them bar comedy and satire, I would say the main reason I was so turned off was the cluster ZOINKS of ideas it presents at once. Someone should tell the people who wrote this that throwing out more seemingly disconnected plot is not a good way to entice readers, at least not ones like me.

A pity, I want to see more mecha genre stuff out there, but it needs to be high quality so the reputation of the genre as a whole doesn't suffer. Granted, this is just my opinion, and one that hasn't been given the chance to read the book, but just looking at the false names of the characters, and story's brief but very hectic plot leave me questing why I should want to read it.
Amion, I think you're jumping the gun a little here. The genre stuff was probably for people who weren't initiated in the mecha genre. It doesn't happen in books that often, like you said. We all know here that the mecha genre has more than "robots," but to the mainstream, who see everything like Gundam, Pacific Rim, etc as "Transformers clones," this sort of thing likely needs a harder sell. (After all, Transformers doesn't have guys like Heero Yuy sneaking around like Solid Snake and parachuting out of buildings--heck, even mecha fans don't associate that with the mecha genre; and relationships are defined by Shia LaBeouf and Megan Fox to genre outsiders).

As for the content, it's definitely orderly when you dig a little deeper. It's very much like what we were talking about with Gundam Wing in Hellcat's discussion. There are a good amount of threads to juggle, but from what I've read, they're pulled together one by one. But like Gundam Wing, it depends on what you want out of a mecha story, and so ShadowCell had a point earlier. This isn't a straightforward Federation versus Zeon sort of thing, so attention spans might not be there. It's more organic. But I think it's interesting that it's going its own way, and that it presents mecha as an extension of our own times and issues. In that regard, I'd say it's a bit like Gundam 00 Season 1 or Gasaraki, but more "human" in tone. I can see some tropes, but the fact that it's not trying to be a total slave to the genre is nice; the genre needs more of that. We've heard so many complaints around here about the lack of "seriousness" with Gundam AGE, that I thought some board members would be interested in this sort of thing.

Efforts like this and Pacific Rim make one wonder if the genre can be accepted in a wider realm of mediums. Reactions to Pacific Rim slammed it somewhat for being too one-note in its plot and characters, but now you're saying that something like this will be too complex for people. Hard to know what to do with the mecha genre then. I'd prefer ambitious over copy-and-paste, though. But I digress.
My Mecha/Scifi Novels: https://www.goodreads.com/series/168677 ... -war-arm-x
"May you rest in peace, the betrayed and outraged Milliardo Peacecraft."
Most-Wanted Gundam Anime: Episode Zero, Blue Destiny, Rise from the Ashes, Crossbone
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Amion
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Re: If mecha fans can't get behind this...

LightningCount wrote:
Amion wrote:The multi-paragraph overview of the story is enough to make me shudder. Not to mention that it bombards me with its arrogant claims of combining multiple genres if not all of them bar comedy and satire, I would say the main reason I was so turned off was the cluster ZOINKS of ideas it presents at once. Someone should tell the people who wrote this that throwing out more seemingly disconnected plot is not a good way to entice readers, at least not ones like me.

A pity, I want to see more mecha genre stuff out there, but it needs to be high quality so the reputation of the genre as a whole doesn't suffer. Granted, this is just my opinion, and one that hasn't been given the chance to read the book, but just looking at the false names of the characters, and story's brief but very hectic plot leave me questing why I should want to read it.
Amion, I think you're jumping the gun a little here. The genre stuff was probably for people who weren't initiated in the mecha genre. It doesn't happen in books that often, like you said. We all know here that the mecha genre has more than "robots," but to the mainstream, who see everything like Gundam, Pacific Rim, etc as "Transformers clones," this sort of thing likely needs a harder sell. (After all, Transformers doesn't have guys like Heero Yuy sneaking around like Solid Snake and parachuting out of buildings--heck, even mecha fans don't associate that with the mecha genre; and relationships are defined by Shia LaBeouf and Megan Fox to genre outsiders).

As for the content, it's definitely orderly when you dig a little deeper. It's very much like what we were talking about with Gundam Wing in Hellcat's discussion. There are a good amount of threads to juggle, but from what I've read, they're pulled together one by one. But like Gundam Wing, it depends on what you want out of a mecha story, and so ShadowCell had a point earlier. This isn't a straightforward Federation versus Zeon sort of thing, so attention spans might not be there. It's more organic. But I think it's interesting that it's going its own way, and that it presents mecha as an extension of our own times and issues. In that regard, I'd say it's a bit like Gundam 00 Season 1 or Gasaraki, but more "human" in tone. I can see some tropes, but the fact that it's not trying to be a total slave to the genre is nice; the genre needs more of that. We've heard so many complaints around here about the lack of "seriousness" with Gundam AGE, that I thought some board members would be interested in this sort of thing.

Efforts like this and Pacific Rim make one wonder if the genre can be accepted in a wider realm of mediums. Reactions to Pacific Rim slammed it somewhat for being too one-note in its plot and characters, but now you're saying that something like this will be too complex for people. Hard to know what to do with the mecha genre then. I'd prefer ambitious over copy-and-paste, though. But I digress.
I admit I seem to be jumping the gun a bit, Count. But here me out on what exactly I'm complaining about. Firstly, I would have no problem with the story itself, but take Gundam Wing's premise: just the opening bit talking about desguising the Gundam's as shooting stars focuses the entire story into something someone who has no clue what they're watching can get behind. The mobile suits are primary weapons, the Colonies are being oppressed, and now they've sent five monsters to wage guerrilla warfare. Crisp, simple, enticing. The hook is set, the show starts, and the audience soon learns that the world of Wing is far, far more complex than they ever would have dreamed, with complex characters.

Do you see that as I pointed out in my post, even as a mecha enthusiast, I can't really bring myself to be enticed. The book literally throws a gigantic boatload of twisting plot points, so much so it feels like a summery of the book, spoiling secrets like unimaginable evil, atop conspiracies that remind me by the sound of it like Matrix, what with one's world being proven as a lie, and an old 'ghost' kidnapping the main character and whatnot. Do we get Heero's lifestory along with Zech's goals in the basic opening previews? Or Traize's deeper intentions? Not so, and even basic stories like Zeon versus the Federation do not hurl half the plot in the face of those who watch it, granted they really tell us less than Wing and still hook me when they drop colonies. Shows and book openings are really the same, they need to hook the reader and engage them. I was not engaged, I was mildly put off, especially with the "There may yet be a future", when seriously now, the ending has me thinking the very opposite! The book may very well be good, but the author needs to work on how he/she's presenting the work for those of us who are hard to get, and who don't have excess pennies to download ARMX and just try it.

Another issue that's really worth a separate post is that a very complicated story being presented off the bat would be a turn-off for just about everyone I know. Most Americans I hate to say, have grown up it seems (at least around me) with simple, redundancy in mind when they watch stuff, they want Megan Fox, not mind-bending political/sci-fi thrillers with honest development and deeper meaning. This isn't quite as bad as I'm making it, but the point is that if I showed it to half the people I know, they would not be converted, but actually mildly disturbed and uninterested, and from my own take of the series and its lack of pictures and (I apologies for throwing your own words back, but this term feels right) organic names, I can't feel for how the story really progresses. You say it's well worth the read, and it very may well be, I do not doubt it even, but my problem is how it markets itself, and believe me when I say my reaction is as at least open to correction, because most casual audiences within my sphere of comprehension would not be, unless they were already into reading such material to start with.

Apologies for this being so long, I hate reading essay posts myself.
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LightningCount
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Re: If mecha fans can't get behind this...

Amion wrote:I admit I seem to be jumping the gun a bit, Count. But here me out on what exactly I'm complaining about. Firstly, I would have no problem with the story itself, but take Gundam Wing's premise: just the opening bit talking about desguising the Gundam's as shooting stars focuses the entire story into something someone who has no clue what they're watching can get behind. The mobile suits are primary weapons, the Colonies are being oppressed, and now they've sent five monsters to wage guerrilla warfare. Crisp, simple, enticing. The hook is set, the show starts, and the audience soon learns that the world of Wing is far, far more complex than they ever would have dreamed, with complex characters.

Do you see that as I pointed out in my post, even as a mecha enthusiast, I can't really bring myself to be enticed. The book literally throws a gigantic boatload of twisting plot points, so much so it feels like a summery of the book, spoiling secrets like unimaginable evil, atop conspiracies that remind me by the sound of it like Matrix, what with one's world being proven as a lie, and an old 'ghost' kidnapping the main character and whatnot. Do we get Heero's lifestory along with Zech's goals in the basic opening previews? Or Traize's deeper intentions? Not so, and even basic stories like Zeon versus the Federation do not hurl half the plot in the face of those who watch it, granted they really tell us less than Wing and still hook me when they drop colonies. Shows and book openings are really the same, they need to hook the reader and engage them. I was not engaged, I was mildly put off, especially with the "There may yet be a future", when seriously now, the ending has me thinking the very opposite! The book may very well be good, but the author needs to work on how he/she's presenting the work for those of us who are hard to get, and who don't have excess pennies to download ARMX and just try it.

Another issue that's really worth a separate post is that a very complicated story being presented off the bat would be a turn-off for just about everyone I know. Most Americans I hate to say, have grown up it seems (at least around me) with simple, redundancy in mind when they watch stuff, they want Megan Fox, not mind-bending political/sci-fi thrillers with honest development and deeper meaning. This isn't quite as bad as I'm making it, but the point is that if I showed it to half the people I know, they would not be converted, but actually mildly disturbed and uninterested, and from my own take of the series and its lack of pictures and (I apologies for throwing your own words back, but this term feels right) organic names, I can't feel for how the story really progresses. You say it's well worth the read, and it very may well be, I do not doubt it even, but my problem is how it markets itself, and believe me when I say my reaction is as at least open to correction, because most casual audiences within my sphere of comprehension would not be, unless they were already into reading such material to start with.

Apologies for this being so long, I hate reading essay posts myself.
It's all right, and I understand better where you're coming from now. You might be surprised to know that everything hinted at in the plot synopsis more or less occurs within the span of the prologue and first three to six chapters sampled on that site. And as for a hook, the prologue is the climatic battle of a civil war in a near-ish future version of the United States, which, while throwing you in sink-or-swim like Gundam Wing's Alliance blowing up that shuttle and putting people against walls in the opening narration you mentioned, certainly achieves the requisite shock value and curiosity. I suppose maybe why the synopsis is written in the fashion you mentioned is so that readers don't read the pro rlogue and assume it's a book solely about big military battles in the US. By mentioning things like a moon colony or the main character, it can perhaps pull in a wider audience of sci-fi or fiction readers.

Regardless, you do make a strong point, sad as it is, about a growing aversion to anything more than, say, a straightforward superhero movie in terms of plot. (I'll admit that even with Gundam Wing's intro, though, it took me at least a week of episodes if not more to get even a slight handle of what was going on. What hooked me at first was just the action and characters). Anyway, I guess it really could be shorter/crisper like you say, but it's not much more spoiler-ish than the synopsis on the back of Bandai's Gundam 00 Anime Legends Box 1 was, or even that super-popular Divergent book series that's out right now by Veronica Roth. Have you seen that?:
Spoiler
In Beatrice Prior’s dystopian Chicago world, society is divided into five factions, each dedicated to the cultivation of a particular virtue—Candor (the honest), Abnegation (the selfless), Dauntless (the brave), Amity (the peaceful), and Erudite (the intelligent). On an appointed day of every year, all sixteen-year-olds must select the faction to which they will devote the rest of their lives. For Beatrice, the decision is between staying with her family and being who she really is—she can’t have both. So she makes a choice that surprises everyone, including herself.

During the highly competitive initiation that follows, Beatrice renames herself Tris and struggles alongside her fellow initiates to live out the choice they have made. Together they must undergo extreme physical tests of endurance and intense psychological simulations, some with devastating consequences. As initiation transforms them all, Tris must determine who her friends really are—and where, exactly, a romance with a sometimes fascinating, sometimes exasperating boy fits into the life she's chosen. But Tris also has a secret, one she's kept hidden from everyone because she's been warned it can mean death. And as she discovers unrest and growing conflict that threaten to unravel her seemingly perfect society, she also learns that her secret might help her save those she loves . . . or it might destroy her.
I think as a result of people not being used to complex stories, I've noticed that more and more books and/or movies tell you more stuff off the bat. (I pity anyone who watched the Oblivion trailer in full before seeing that movie). I agree that this is annoying, but it's all part of the game, I guess.

I confess, with all this, I phrased this thread improperly in retrospect. It should have been something more to the effect of "Can mecha fans and/or other audiences accept this?"...though, that's a lot less snappy and provocative for discussion. Like you, I think there are bigger questions in here. Another question I have in all this is if mecha and/or anime fans accept "mecha" as we know it from anime in anything other than Japanese animation. For instance, there have been some statements on these boards in the past that suggest mecha fans like us would rather read sword-and-sorcery, or whatever, rather than anything with mecha. Is that because there isn't a tradition of mecha novels? (Robotech by Jack McKinney is the closest to anime-style mecha in novels in the West I can think of, but that's because it's partially an adaptation of a Japanese series, just like its self-titled TV series).

See what you've done? Now I wrote an essay. :P
My Mecha/Scifi Novels: https://www.goodreads.com/series/168677 ... -war-arm-x
"May you rest in peace, the betrayed and outraged Milliardo Peacecraft."
Most-Wanted Gundam Anime: Episode Zero, Blue Destiny, Rise from the Ashes, Crossbone
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Amion
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Re: If mecha fans can't get behind this...

LightningCount wrote:See what you've done? Now I wrote an essay. :P
It's all part of my devious plot to spam up the boards with drawn-out essays for reasons that only my too-deep-for-you-plan could explain, ahahah.

Yes, it does make sense then if a good deal of the prologue actually reveals a good deal in setting up, yet at the same time, a synopsis needs to clinch, and I'm not getting the clinch. Complex plot is fine, but revealing stuff simply in the synopsis while also getting the primary point across is a talent in writing that takes practice, one that I've got little personal experience with and understand how easily it can go wrong.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot to mention that I think it was me before who mentioned that I still prefer the fantasy genre over mecha, it's my first and true love, mecha branching off from it because I simply don't care if the physics are screwed up. The robots are cool and I don't mind the impossibility of it, like most people.

As I see, people look at giant robots the exact same way people from my grandparents' and parent's generations viewed things like most modern fantasy novels, like Lord of the Rings; with distaste or mild revulsion at how "weird" and impossible it was. The genre took off though and so we have high fantasy and other branches of the magical and chivalrous, and probably because of the chivalrous, as knights are historical, even if elves, orcs, dragons, trolls, and far away lands aren't. This is casual conjecture, but I feel as if the populace today simply won't accept mecha for the reasons I do.

I have no issues with a giant robot of war, same as I have no issues questioning how the heck a dragon is supposed to fly when arguably it shouldn't. Bumblebees can fly, so heck with how we think physics work, mobile suits can walk and dragons can fly too, it's that simple to me. An explanation is great and all, but at the end of the day it doesn't hurt me if it isn't there or is inherently silly.

Others however......*Grits teeth at nearby family and snarls vindictively*.....ahem, sneer at giant robots and such, while having not the slightest issue with a dragon flying down to breath fiery doom because dragons are culturally common in our stories with their descriptions. No one takes them seriously like we'd see one, but sometimes wish we did so we read the books. But that line of thinking, perhaps because the giant robot is not endeared to our society or in thousands of literature pieces, does not transfer over to the mecha genre. Casual audiences seem to believe that because its a robot, it has to be taken seriously, and if it can't, and usually they make sure it won't at first glance, they laugh and snivel their noses when something is done that is serious.

And then comes transformers, which seems to have literally stolen that niche and won't be letting go, while the buff men in spandex and underwear draw the young adult crowd for their pecs and heroic 'action'. You know, I'm starting to bizarrely compare the superhero craze to greek gods, as they both have striking similarities, flawed, essentially human beings but with amazing powers and moral delimmae and nasty nemesis. Somehow this appeals to people too, despite the inherent silliness, versus a sixty + giant robot with beam weaponry and giant colony impacts.

Gee, this one's the longest yet! All part of the plan, as Aizen Sousuke would say.
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Re: If mecha fans can't get behind this...

Amion wrote:Somehow this appeals to people too, despite the inherent silliness, versus a sixty + giant robot with beam weaponry and giant colony impacts.

So you're saying that while the concept of comic book heroes is inherently silly, there's nothing silly at all about the concept of giant robots?

The same way the silliness of comic book heroes stands out to people who aren't big into them, the concept of heroic giant robots is puzzling to Westerners is because -- as you yourself aluded to -- the genre is simply not a part of Western culture. You can't call Transformers out for stealing the mecha niche when it literally is the entire niche. And it along with other cult classics like Voltron and Robotech that make up the mecha "genre" in America can barely even begin to be compared against the level of cultural integration the genre has achieved back in Japan. Americans simply don't recognize and accept the giant robot in the same way that the Japanese do.

The same goes for all cultural icons -- America has Batman and Superman, Japan has Tetsujin #28 and Kamen Rider. America has Star Trek, Japan has Mobile Suit Gundam. Different pop cultures developed around different things. One franchise or genre that works well in one country might not be as eagerly received in another. Of course, the status quo always has the potential to change, but for now that's just how things are.
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Amion
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Re: If mecha fans can't get behind this...

Strike Zero wrote:
Amion wrote:Somehow this appeals to people too, despite the inherent silliness, versus a sixty + giant robot with beam weaponry and giant colony impacts.

So you're saying that while the concept of comic book heroes is inherently silly, there's nothing silly at all about the concept of giant robots?

The same way the silliness of comic book heroes stands out to people who aren't big into them, the concept of heroic giant robots is puzzling to Westerners is because -- as you yourself aluded to -- the genre is simply not a part of Western culture. You can't call Transformers out for stealing the mecha niche when it literally is the entire niche. And it along with other cult classics like Voltron and Robotech that make up the mecha "genre" in America can barely even begin to be compared against the level of cultural integration the genre has achieved back in Japan. Americans simply don't recognize and accept the giant robot in the same way that the Japanese do.

The same goes for all cultural icons -- America has Batman and Superman, Japan has Tetsujin #28 and Kamen Rider. America has Star Trek, Japan has Mobile Suit Gundam. Different pop cultures developed around different things. One franchise or genre that works well in one country might not be as eagerly received in another. Of course, the status quo always has the potential to change, but for now that's just how things are.
What I'm saying is exactly as you've pointed out, Strike, the inherent silliness of superheroes people can dig because the pop culture and people in it have grown up with then and accept the silliness and enjoy it for what it can bring. But can't seem to with mecha not because it isn't silly, but because it is and that turns people off because they don't know how to take it or read into it properly. Time and experience would hopefully cure this. Transformers being the exception, and I say it steals the genre here because it is, like you said, it's the only part of the genre and the general reaction to new shows/movies etc, is "oh, it's a knock-off" which for me is something I can't say with experience, as most people I know are aware of the japanese mecha genre, but just don't care about it educate themselves.
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