Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:05 pm

xaos wrote:Just a guess but I'm starting to believe the city is a nod to Attilan. The city the Inhumans are supposed to live. Since the Inhumans are humans that are supposed be experimented on by the Kree in ancient times. The alien looking like it could be a Kree and having been there since I believe they said "before the pyramids" has me believing that theory.
That makes sense. It would explain why Skye's dad knows about the Obelisk/Diviner, which also has the alien writing.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Thu Nov 13, 2014 7:52 pm

Well it's moment of truth time. If Ward ends up killing his brother, then he's the irredeemable cold hearted monster everyone believes him to be. But if he spares him, then maybe he'll find himself fighting alongside the good guys again some day.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:12 pm

Destiny_Gundam wrote:Well it's moment of truth time. If Ward ends up killing his brother, then he's the irredeemable cold hearted monster everyone believes him to be. But if he spares him, then maybe he'll find himself fighting alongside the good guys again some day.
Really? An "irredeemable cold hearted monster?" For killing Christian? Who will undoubtedly do other evil things as the series goes on by the time he and Ward come face to face? I think you might be exaggerating a tad bit there. :roll:
We cheered when Mike Peterson stomped in Garret's ribcage. He may have been a crazy killer, but I don't see Christian's true side turning out to be much better given what we know of him as a kid. Generally, that's a bad sign of what they'll turn out to be as an adult. And you can just see that's where Whedon is taking Christian's direction.
Though I don't expect Ward to kill him in cold blood. If Ward kills Christian it'll be justified in some way, just as none of us called Peterson a killer for stepping on Garret.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:29 pm

You can't even begin to compare Mike to Ward. Mike was turned into Deathlock against his will and carried out orders because he had a bomb in his head and Hydra had his son. He was a good man forced to do bad things.

Ward is a bad man who did bad things by his own will. He'll admit to that much at least.

We know Christian was a terror as a kid, but there's nothing to suggest he's immolating puppies as an adult. He could have grown out of it. And like I said before, there's nothing indicating he has any ties to Hydra.

But that's besides the point. Maybe he deserves it, maybe he doesn't. However if Grant can put aside his hatred and choose to spare his brother's life, that means there is indeed some good in him.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by phillosmaster » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:54 pm

I love that this thread has become the epic debate for Grant Ward's soul.

I agree. They appear to be looking for Attilan. I guess that Inhuman tie in is coming sooner rather than later. I can't wait for Skye to start hanging out with Lockjaw.
Even as we speak, the stealth bombers of the Brotherhood of Dada are swooping silently overhead. They’re using stealth bombs which level whole cities without even the slightest trace of noise or damage. Nothing remains of the world you knew and still you stand in the ruins, acting as if nothing has changed.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Wellman » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:55 am

phillosmaster wrote:I love that this thread has become the epic debate for Grant Ward's soul.

I agree. They appear to be looking for Attilan. I guess that Inhuman tie in is coming sooner rather than later. I can't wait for Skye to start hanging out with Lockjaw.
Don't think this show can afford Lockjaw... maybe they can chill with Gorgon or Crystal but Lockjaw is no doubt going to be held back until Disney can make him as promotable as possible.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by phillosmaster » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:27 pm

I was being facetious. I hate the Inhumans. This story thread has been good though. I'll dig it if they introduce it in this more subtle way.
Even as we speak, the stealth bombers of the Brotherhood of Dada are swooping silently overhead. They’re using stealth bombs which level whole cities without even the slightest trace of noise or damage. Nothing remains of the world you knew and still you stand in the ruins, acting as if nothing has changed.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:03 pm

It's official:
SpoilerShow
Absolutely no going back for Ward now. Hell, Skye's dad has a better chance of redeeming himself.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Wingnut » Wed Nov 19, 2014 12:22 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:It's official:
SpoilerShow
Absolutely no going back for Ward now. Hell, Skye's dad has a better chance of redeeming himself.
SpoilerShow
I don't think even croaking for the sake of Skye or the team would be enough for Ward now, though that could work for Skye's dad still.

"I can't ever trust you, but I don't stop wanting to." was a rather touching moment in its own.

Anyone else think that woman who didn't age was Skye's mom, and that her not aging led Skye to being classified as an 084 herself?
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:41 am

Oh my god I can't believe it, Ward actually killed him! And his parents too! In a fire?! He's a lousy scumbag, the lowest of humanity, there's no coming back for him now! I can't believe I even trusted him! And-

..............and who am I kidding? Ward murdererd Christian and their parents off-screen? No ominous scene where we see Ward, with the evil grin he showed Whitehall, while he watches his home burn down with his family in it? No scene of Christian meeting his end after all this? Not even a scene of just Ward lighting the house on fire? Nothing at all to sell to us, the viewers, that Ward has truly become evil? Just "there was a fire with his whole family in it," that's it?
Not a chance. There's a reason Ward didn't kill Victoria hand off-screen, a reason Whedon didn't give us a gunshot going off in a blank-screen scene after he pointed the gun at Hand. Because it was to show us for a fact that Ward was working for Garret, not as some scene. Christian's torture of Ward was what made him "evil," and we don't get to see a scene of Ward killing him as his vangeance or as his permanent descent into darkness? Folly, I say. It's a big neon sign flashing "this is a fakeout." Heck, we never even saw a picture of either of Ward's parents, let alone meet them in the series. How are we supposed to care what happens to them?
I don't blame Whedon for pulling it off this way, though. He can't show us a scene of Ward killing them when he didn't actually do it, and it can't be a fakeout if he shows us right there that it's a trick. So this was the only way he could do it.
I especially believe this is a fakeout because I have more faith in Marvel and Whedon than this after their great track record with the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Because if this was supposed to sell to us that Ward was now truly evil, it failed. Hard. You need a lot more emotion to make one of the main characters, a former good guy for more than half of the first season, this evil. As others have said on other forums and blogs, this development lacked gravity. But it lacked gravity for an unavoidable reason.
On top of that, you have the part where Christian argued with Ward about how Ward can't be the hero he wants to, and Ward's "you struck a nerve" face when Christian said that. If Ward was really evil and didn't care about being a hero, why would he be annoyed at that?
Botom line, anybody who buys this is a sucker, and Whedon and the staff are all laughing like madmen at the viewers who fell for it. The only way Ward really killed Christian and their parents is if Marvel and Whedon utterly failed at making the viewers care, despite how they succeeded in the emotion of the scene where we saw Ward shoot Victoria Hand. The scene of Whitehall killing Skye's mother, that is how you sell a big, deciding event or reveal. Not keeping it off-screen. Ward is only evil if Whedon pulls a Shinn Asuka with him. Ward was the guy who was even AoS' character face on ABC's "coming up next" piece despite Coulson being the main character.

But it certainly got him in Whitehall's good favor, didn't it. *hint hint, wink wink* Looks like I called Ward infiltrating Hydra too, after all he'd need a hard sell to get back in their good graces, especially after Bakshi. (there's no way Whitehall doesn't know Bakshi went out to meet with Ward when he disappeared) Christian is tied up/confined somewhere, along with their parents (no way they'd go through with this willingly), while Ward does this thing. Ward did tell Skye to expect more Hydra gifts. Though Whitehall is pretty clever, I wouldn't be surprised if he has Christian and their parents dragged into the office in front of Ward later as a nice "I figured you out" bombshell.
Then again, Skye's dad might have Whitehall fooled too. The way he looked at Whitehall when he talked about looking his enemy in the eye, as we saw the flashback of him finding his wife who Whitehall disected, was a bit foreshadowing. How he (theoretically) figured out it was Whitehall, I don't know, but that look he gave him with that timing definitely struck a note. It would make sense; his daughter thinks he's a monster, so as he said he doesn't have anything to lose. So he figures, why not go on a suicide mission to kill the man who murdered his wife? He knows someone who worked with them. He has something they want. He even managed to find Hydra's place and meet with Whitehall face to face, so he's obviously pretty good at finding secrets. And making enemies of SHIELD and his daughter isn't a huge issue since clearly the ends justify the means for him in his mentally unstable state.
Or Whitehall is playing himself as dumb, and both of them for fools.

And on that note, we finally see both Skye's mother, and how Whitehall has maintained his younger age. Not really a whole ton else to say on this since we didn't really get much else. But seriously, that look Skye's dad gave Whitehall just before the flashback hints pretty hard that he knows Whitehall is his enemy especially the way the look was timed right after his "look your enemy in the eye line.
Though I suppose I couldbe over-reading that. But it just hints so hard.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by phillosmaster » Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:27 am

I think I said my peace already on Grant so I'm just gonna say that last episode was awesome. I really hope this series can keep this up. That stinger got me. Making me care about a character I originally thought was just going to be a ridiculous mustache twirler.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:16 pm

I won't deny the possibility that it's a fake out, but I find it highly unlikely. If Ward forced them into it, how exactly is he going to make sure they stay under when he's too busy at Hydra? It's not like he has any allies he can trust such a task to. Why bring his parents in at all? His brother alone would have been enough and a single person is easier to control. Plus, they indentified bodies. How could Ward, with as little resources as he had, manage convincing fakes?

Ward's hate for his family is real, and there isn't much that would prevent him from killing them. Didn't you notice the box of matches in his bag when he was talking to Skye? That was his intent all along. Not everything off screen didn't actually happen, and doing it this way heightens the impact since last we saw the Ward brothers were being buddy-buddy. They already used up their fake-out with that little hope spot. You can't compare it to the thing with Hand because at the time we didn't think Ward would do something like that. Now when we hear that he burned his family and pinned it on his brother we're all "Yep, he'd totally do that."

Obviously Ward is going to be leaking Hydra stuff to Shield, but this won't redeem him. This season has been a subversion of the whole "bad guy turns good" thing for awhile. Ward's all "You gotta let me back on the team, look at how helpful I am!" and everyone else is all "That still doesn't change what you are." Just because he says he's sorry and that he's provided a little help he thinks he's entitled to forgiveness, but it doesn't work that way.

Also, you speak of Whedon but you do realise you're talking about Jed and not Joss, right?
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Dark Duel » Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:24 pm

phillosmaster wrote:I think I said my peace already on Grant so I'm just gonna say that last episode was awesome. I really hope this series can keep this up. That stinger got me. Making me care about a character I originally thought was just going to be a ridiculous mustache twirler.
To be completely honest, in the flashback scene with the older Whitehall/Reinhardt, I started to suspect a possible connection because of some of the minor dialog reminding me of things they'd said in previous episodes.
But the actual scene itself completely blew me away. And it was brilliant. Utterly brilliant.
I'm so psyched to see where the show goes next now...

As for Ward, I'm on the fence. Honestly, he was never a character I particularly cared for or found all that interesting personally, so I really have no opinion one way or another. A fake-out is unlikely, but possible. Either way, I'd still be somewhat interested in seeing where they go with him next.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:34 pm

Best part:
SpoilerShow
Skye capping Ward. Glorious.
See you in March.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by battletech » Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:50 pm

WOW! Way to end the first half of this season. All those people put this show down and now
SpoilerShow
it is introducing audiences to the Inhumans.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Destiny_Gundam » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:24 am

I'm not all that happy about
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Skye being Quake. I wanted her to stay as her own character rather than turn out to be some one from the comics.
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Wingnut » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:44 am

Destiny_Gundam wrote:I'm not all that happy about
SpoilerShow
Skye being Quake. I wanted her to stay as her own character rather than turn out to be some one from the comics.
As a non-comic guy, this went totally over my head, and I could not even come close to explaining it to those among me who are even less in tune to the paper media of it all then I am.
Destiny_Gundam wrote:Best part:
SpoilerShow
Skye capping Ward. Glorious.
See you in March.
SpoilerShow
Though he obviously planned for the event of getting shot, the look on his face said that Skye was the LAST person he expected to pump him full of lead. Also the line "Join S.H.I.E.L.D., travel to exotic distant lands. Meet exciting, unusual people...

... and kill them." :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:08 pm

Turns out I called it on the doctor knowing about Whitefall. The "look your enemy in the eyes" scene was a dead giveaway. :)

So that's why they told us Whitefall's secret so early. Because they were going to kill him off this soon.

Oh man. That last bit didn't look good for the doctor. I really hope he doesn't become a real bad guy, especially since his instability is clearly not his own fault, but his rage with Coulson for stealing his revenge is not a good sign. :(

And yeah, it's a shame to see Trip go. :(

But really, Skye? Really? Whitefall makes it clear to your face that Ward didn't want to shoot down the bus, where a bunch of people who want him dead are? He keeps his promise to you, cuts you free, doesn't even bother to take a weapon against you, makes it perfectly clear he's not actually your enemy. Heck, why didn't he take a gun to defend himself against the rest of SHIELD? Because he had no intentions of fighting them. And you shoot him in the back in cold blood? (the only reason it wasn't literally in the back was because he turned around at the last second, but the intent was sure htere) Forget the argument of whether Ward is good or evil, forget that she could have knocked him out, tyed him up, captured him and all that just like May of all people did last season. Heck, even shooting him face-to-face. All that would have been one thing, but you shot him in the back in cold blood when he made it clear he wasn't your enemy. That's not justice, that's cold-blooded murder. All the moral high ground speeches Skye said about her father sound pretty empty right now. "Never turn my back on my enemy." Ummmm, maybe he turned his back on you, and didn't bother to take that Hydra guy's gun, because he didn't consider you an enemy?Why not just shoot your dad, Skye? He was acting more evil than Ward. :roll:
Heck, now I'm even half-hoping he does become a real bad guy just so he can stick it to 'em. And I defintely don't want to see Skye getting Ward back, regardless of the hope Skye's actress has for the revival of WardxSkye.

And shooting Ward being "glorious?" If he had actually done something bad or been a threat of any kind this episode, maybe, but clearly a certain someone here is going overboard with their hate for Ward. Even May didn't go as low as Skye did, and Ward was actually trying to kill her. She could have planted that nail gun in Ward's gut and it would have been justifiable self-defense. She didn't even do it when he was defenseless unlike Skye. This episode? Everything Ward did was good, including the part where he took Skye's side when Whitefall turned the tables. Ward could have just pulled a gun on Skye or simply just watched. And don't forget the part where he specifically chose not to take the opportunity to blow up a plane full of "enemy" agents who were nothing but a threat to him. These aren't signs of a future in bad guy careers.

But March, Marvel? Seriously?! :evil:
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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by excalibur2008 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:23 pm

Shinji103 wrote: But really, Skye? Really? Whitefall makes it clear to your face that Ward didn't want to shoot down the bus, where a bunch of people who want him dead are?
Didn't try to stop HYDRA from trying either when it would have been pretty noticeable.
He keeps his promise to you,
Yeah, becuase kidnapping her was such a heroic thing to do.
cuts you free, doesn't even bother to take a weapon against you, makes it perfectly clear he's not actually your enemy.
No, he just has a really creepy stalker obsession.
Ummmm, maybe he turned his back on you, and didn't bother to take that Hydra guy's gun, because he didn't consider you an enemy?
Which doesn't mean SHE doesn't consider him an enemy.

Besides Whitehall even pointed out how dangerous the Ward is, so yeah its probably not a good idea to blindly trust a guy whose motives are a mystery.

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Re: Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

Post by Shinji103 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:39 pm

excalibur2008 wrote:Didn't try to stop HYDRA from trying either when it would have been pretty noticeable.
Doesn't change the fact that he didn't want them dead when he knew they didn't think the same of him. And considering he's clearly not in charge like Whitefall, it's clear he couldn't stop them. But he could've ordered the planes to fire himself and eliminated threats to him, including the person who beat him to a pulp, and he didn't. I also recall he once wore a bomb vest to keep SHIELD away from him and shortly after left a gift-wrapped Hydra top guy for them to find. He could've left his bomb vest on the guy and blown up several of the people chasing him. He didn't do that either.
He had every reason to get rid of the people coming after him and no reason to leave them alive on two seperate occasions. If he was evil, of course.
Yeah, becuase kidnapping her was such a heroic thing to do.
And how else was this supposed to happen? I don't see her coming to meet him at his request, and I don't see him expecting her to.
And have you ever noticed how the opposing side in a debate on many forums tries to blow the other's side way out of proportion to make them sound ridiculous? I don't recall saying anything about "heroic."
No, he just has a really creepy stalker obsession.
Right, because he has no intelligence, he has no desire for self-preservation, he isn't trained for exactly this kind of thing, and he has no idea Skye hates him. Even if the term "stalker" fit him. Which it doesn't.
Which doesn't mean SHE doesn't consider him an enemy.
Wow. Missed my point entirely. Or did you intentionally go in a circle around it in an effort to avoid my point? :roll: That point being that Ward not being her enemy was clear for her to see, even long before this episode. She just chose not to care.
Besides Whitehall even pointed out how dangerous the Ward is, so yeah its probably not a good idea to blindly trust a guy whose motives are a mystery.
Because Whitefall, or any bad guy for that matter, doesn't talk smack about anybody, mock anybody, or mess with anybody.
Mystery? Skye would have to be an idiot not to see that Ward's on her side (don't confuse that with "SHIELD's side" right now) when he's made it incredibly obvious before and now, especially when Ward pulled a gun on Hydra to protect her. As I said, he could have just stood there and watched when Whitefall held them all up. Instead, he tried to protect her in the middle of terrible odds. And she responded by shooting him multiple times in the back. After he freed her. While he was unarmed. He could have kept her hands tied, kept a gun on her, or a laundry list of other things.
There were several ways she could have handled him without shooting him in the back in cold blood. Simply knocking him out being the most obvious, especially with his back turned. May did that, and that was after he tried to kill her.

Now before you try to explain away Skye's cold-blooded actions any further, know that I'll never approve of shooting an unarmed human being in the back like that, regardless of who he is. Even as the result of karma I'm iffy on. This context with Ward making his non-hostility clear certainly doesn't make me feel better about it., either. I'm not going to keep up a long-going debate about it either. I've made my feelings on th matter clear, and have no intentions of changing them, nor debating them any further. Skye shot an unarmed man in the back after he helped her and tried to protect her when there were several non-lethal ways to handle him, and she had he perfect opportunity to do any of them. She's squarely in my dog house.
And as I said before, I'm fair and balanced in judging both good and bad guys, so I'll specifically point out myself that yes, Ward has done similar and earned my severe disappointment for it. (but I only say "similar" because they were either armed or he didn't feel fine about it like Skye did, not even Agent Hand) However, I'm a firm believer in old and solid saying, "two wrongs don't make a right."
And before you point it out, Whitefall was armed and about to shoot the doctor. Not to mention his intentions were clearly evil. Completely different situation.

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