The Last Jedi

Topics not covered in other forums. NO POLITICS OR RELIGION.

Moderators: ShadowCell, Heretic, mcred23, EZero8, Kenji

User avatar
Amion
War-ending Idol Singer
Posts: 2108
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Amion » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:55 pm

Areku wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:53 pm
ShadowCell wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:13 pm
so i'm not sure how gray a Jedi Luke can really be. and i'm not sure what it means to be a gray Jedi in the new canon anyway.
Probably something about not being a self-righteous emotion-denying angst breeding-ground where rigid doctrine is sacred and consequences are ignored like the actual Jedi order. Seeing as how that la-la-la-covering-my-ears-I-can-do-no-wrong-cause-that's-how-I-was-trained attitude seems to be the primary cause of the Jedi's misdeeds/errors and lets the Sith monopolize the "coping with sentience" market...
Thank you, my words exactly. Here's to hoping they address this. Of course, this gets straight into morality territory, which a good number of people will argue wildly. My hope is that they actually give us in-story moral principles from the Force itself that can shape doctrine. It would please me more to argue about something based off something within a story rather than in real life.

The issue for me is the same Karen Travis had with the Jedi, and apparently she and I are heretics. :D So whatever. But let's be fair. As far as I care it's all good so long as we don't get silly Force Family mythos expansion, which sadly is more than likely, seeing as how Clone Wars is canon. *Shakes fist at Lucasfilm and Disney, and then sighs*

On another bit... it has been made clear to me that JJ apparently did not have any real answers to the mysteries he put into The Force Awakens, and they have convinced me with their evidence that it was merely style and blatant disregard for substance, citing his inclination for spinning mysteries without real purpose behind them. How in the world did the House of Mouse originally plan to give the entire movie trilogy to this guy? :lol: Or is it that this is but mere disgruntled internet hate-bait? :cry:

At least I've been thoroughly bolstered by endless praise from these other forums about the new director. Question: anyone here have an opinion on what they think of Rian Johnson? I am by no means a movie buff and have previously no interest or need to critique a movie director... Pardon and pamper my gross ignorance. :mrgreen:
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

User avatar
Dark Duel
Determined Shonen Hero
Posts: 4602
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:39 pm
Location: A blue City in a red State

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Dark Duel » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:39 pm

Prior to Rogue One, which I thought was excellent, I had never actually heard the name Rian Johnson before, or at least I did not recall it.
However, I have seen two movies he wrote and directed: 2012's Looper and 2008's The Brothers Bloom. And I thought both - especially the latter - were excellent movies, and I would strongly recommend checking both of them out.
So I actually have high hopes that TLJ will be another excellent movie, and the fact that Abrams is co-producing the film should ensure that it flows smoothly from TFA. Johnson, in turn, will similarly be collaborating with his successor, Jurassic World director Colin Trevorrow, on Episode IX.
// ART THREAD // NOT ACCEPTING REQUESTS
// GUNPLA THREAD //

"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."

User avatar
Amion
War-ending Idol Singer
Posts: 2108
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Amion » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:41 pm

Many thanks, Duel. I am very relieved to hear I am not the only person in the world who thought Rogue One was excellent, and not some kind of trainwreck with Star Wars attached. It was splendid.

Hmm... I've continued to hear conflicting reports on Rian's collusion with Travorrow. First thing is that he's not directing IX, then he is, then I hear he originally was doing both VIII and IX, then someone got their numerals mixed up, and so on. This is what I get for not digging deeper into official reports...

I have observed miniature implosions of people trying to discuss Jurassic World in a tame fashion without mutating into violent mythological flesh-eaters. Was it good? Then again, since I don't watch movies often, my definition of good is a little rusty... but really, is the fear over Trevorrow justifiable? There are claims he is rather bland...
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

User avatar
Areku
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
Posts: 1213
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:00 am

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Areku » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:01 pm

Amion wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:55 pm
On another bit... it has been made clear to me that JJ apparently did not have any real answers to the mysteries he put into The Force Awakens, and they have convinced me with their evidence that it was merely style and blatant disregard for substance, citing his inclination for spinning mysteries without real purpose behind them. How in the world did the House of Mouse originally plan to give the entire movie trilogy to this guy? :lol: Or is it that this is but mere disgruntled internet hate-bait? :cry:
I really enjoyed TFA at first, but during my second viewing (the next day) I came to realize just how shallow and characteristically mystery-box the movie really is. I get the feeling that by the time VIII and IX come around, the general consensus will be much like TPM: that it was primarily liked because it was a long-awaited return of Star Wars to the silver screen but that the movie is completely vapid and disposable outside of a few select scenes/sequences (Maz Kanata's blatant and unnatural teases will age especially poorly). Some of the character moments/banter were... okay, but not on the level of 4-6. BB-8 was super cute, though.

Hopefully VIII and IX will completely upstage VII by giving some substance to the spectacle/nostalgia and actually do something satisfying with VII's insultingly-blatant self-hyping mystery-boxing.
Amion wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:41 pm
Was it good?
It's a decent collection of sights and sounds to accompany a popcorn binge, but that's about it. Nostalgia-panders to what the original did well/correctly while cranking its tolerable flaws up to full ham/incoherence.
Dark Duel wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:39 pm
Prior to Rogue One, which I thought was excellent
Amion wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:41 pm
Many thanks, Duel. I am very relieved to hear I am not the only person in the world who thought Rogue One was excellent, and not some kind of trainwreck with Star Wars attached. It was splendid.
I definitely wouldn't go so far as to call it a trainwreck, but it was also far from excellent. The first hour-ish is a badly-edited mess of no-context location hopping, ham-fisted exposition, insane character motivations/actions/contradictions (Jyn's constant flip-flopping between self-preserving rogue and heroic "paladin" coming across as the most tonally egregious, Saw Gerrara's actions being the most absurd) and errant sideplots (what's with Star Wars and tentacles recently?), but Sweet Christmas was the last 40-ish minutes an exhilarating ride with some well-conveyed stakes and tension (but still not perfect, there were some strange choreography/tactics on display and it spent too much time glorifying improbably-successful self-sacrifice). K-2SO was the one thing that was consistently good (aside from things that are assumed for a Star Wars), but he can't prop up that first hour on his own.

Zeonista
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:47 pm
Location: in ur colony, steelin ur gundam

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Zeonista » Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:59 pm

ShadowCell wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:13 pm
he did kinda choke some of Jabba's guards because i guess that was okay or something that one time.

on the other hand he also officially earned his Jedi stripes by refusing to kill his father, throwing down his saber, and telling the Emperor to go eat all of the dicks, so i'm not sure how gray a Jedi Luke can really be. and i'm not sure what it means to be a gray Jedi in the new canon anyway.
I don't want to call it "gray jedi order". It is more a question of "balance of the Force". The Jedi and Sith became extreme forces very dedicated to Light and Dark side dominant pathways respectively. The prequels make it clear that the Jedi Knights hurt themselves by becoming monastic & eschewing the outside world to navel-gaze and pursue spiritual separation of heart and intellect. See how much good that did them? The Sith too erred by presuming ahead of time that good = weak and therefore the best use of Force is to create puppet strings, or wield power like a balrog's whip & flaming sword. Not all use of Light & Dark powers are automatically good/evil, and not all situations are easy to classify. "Uncertain, the future is."
"I am fire. I am death. I am Hashmal."

"Discontent is the first step in the progress for a man or a nation." - Oscar Wilde

User avatar
Amion
War-ending Idol Singer
Posts: 2108
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Amion » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:09 pm

Zeonista wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:59 pm
I don't want to call it "gray jedi order". It is more a question of "balance of the Force". The Jedi and Sith became extreme forces very dedicated to Light and Dark side dominant pathways respectively. The prequels make it clear that the Jedi Knights hurt themselves by becoming monastic & eschewing the outside world to navel-gaze and pursue spiritual separation of heart and intellect. See how much good that did them? The Sith too erred by presuming ahead of time that good = weak and therefore the best use of Force is to create puppet strings, or wield power like a balrog's whip & flaming sword. Not all use of Light & Dark powers are automatically good/evil, and not all situations are easy to classify. "Uncertain, the future is."
I see I'm not the only one to study under Kreia and Lord Revan's teachings. :) But some disturbing fools persist in holding to their ancient religion. They just don't know the power of a Balanced vision.
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

User avatar
ShadowCell
Traitor Villain
Posts: 5729
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:59 pm
Location: California
Contact:

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by ShadowCell » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:18 pm

Zeonista wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2017 2:59 pm
ShadowCell wrote:
Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:13 pm
he did kinda choke some of Jabba's guards because i guess that was okay or something that one time.

on the other hand he also officially earned his Jedi stripes by refusing to kill his father, throwing down his saber, and telling the Emperor to go eat all of the dicks, so i'm not sure how gray a Jedi Luke can really be. and i'm not sure what it means to be a gray Jedi in the new canon anyway.
I don't want to call it "gray jedi order". It is more a question of "balance of the Force". The Jedi and Sith became extreme forces very dedicated to Light and Dark side dominant pathways respectively. The prequels make it clear that the Jedi Knights hurt themselves by becoming monastic & eschewing the outside world to navel-gaze and pursue spiritual separation of heart and intellect. See how much good that did them? The Sith too erred by presuming ahead of time that good = weak and therefore the best use of Force is to create puppet strings, or wield power like a balrog's whip & flaming sword. Not all use of Light & Dark powers are automatically good/evil, and not all situations are easy to classify. "Uncertain, the future is."
sure, but all that does is point out how convoluted and strained the concept of "gray Jedi" was in the old canon. is a gray Jedi someone who doesn't follow all the persnickety rules of the Jedi Order when it's at its most indolent and self-absorbed, or is it someone who tries to walk a relativistic muddle between good and evil, or what? the former is pretty meaningless in an era where the Jedi Order is extinct, and the latter doesn't work very well in a universe with well-defined moral metaphysics--which is why Legends' examples of gray Jedi were either just servants of the light or in denial about their slow turn to the dark side.

anyways, so far as i can tell the "Rey is a gray Jedi" theory mostly seems to be based on the fact that she is wearing gray and Luke is muttering about ending the Jedi and some people really want her to be one, whatever a gray Jedi is gonna be.

User avatar
Areku
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
Posts: 1213
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:00 am

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Areku » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:53 am

ShadowCell wrote:
Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:18 pm
someone who doesn't follow all the persnickety rules of the Jedi Order when it's at its most indolent and self-absorbed ... is pretty meaningless in an era where the Jedi Order is extinct
Probably not so meaningless to Luke, who's likely spent the past few decades being lectured by a host of persnickety Force ghosts.

Zeonista
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:47 pm
Location: in ur colony, steelin ur gundam

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Zeonista » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:56 pm

First off I would like to salute HISHE for their Rogue One episode. Several potential "good ends" there, all of them nice...but making me appreciate the movie's ruthless nature more. Also, "S'up n00bs." :lol:

Amion: Revan-sama is my ultimate sensei. :) I don't want to call the Jedi Knights foolish for their persistance, since they persisted in being an objective and politically neutral (on the sector/system level) force for justice. (Not peace, justice, and important point that seems to have been forgotten by many, but not Lucas.) However, theJedi Order took things to an extreme, and created an imbalance, and a fatally effective case of tunnel vision. A more balanced perception & use of The Force could create an Order that is still standing in the Light, but at the same time understands the surrounding Darkness. And emotional detachment is good in the courtroom, but when confronting many foes with lightsaber in hand, might a little passion for justice might be a good thing too?

ShadowCell: You bring up a good question. If the Jedi Order as a galactic force is spent, but the Force endures, then is it possible for a successor order to be re-established? The Jedi Knights were created to bring Force users of a certain mindset together and train them to use their abiliies for the greater good, not their own enhancement and advancement. Why can't Master Luke Skywalker start over again on a new path? It is a question that goes beyond knee-jerk fan prejudices.

Areku: I would definitely say that Luke got a good start & grounding with Ben Kenobi and Yoda. But he learned much situational experience concerning the Force from Darth Vader as well. Both sets of lessons ought to be distilled into his teachings. Not moral equivalence, but an understanding of the Dark Side process that is a notable blind spot in other Jedi characters.
"I am fire. I am death. I am Hashmal."

"Discontent is the first step in the progress for a man or a nation." - Oscar Wilde

Zeonista
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:47 pm
Location: in ur colony, steelin ur gundam

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Zeonista » Mon Apr 24, 2017 2:04 pm

First off I would like to salute HISHE for their Rogue One episode. Several potential "good ends" there, all of them nice...but making me appreciate the movie's ruthless nature more. Also, "S'up noobs." :lol:

Amion: Revan-sama is my ultimate sensei. :) I don't want to call the Jedi Knights foolish for their persistance, since they persisted in being an objective and politically neutral (on the sector/system level) force for justice. (Not peace, justice, and important point that seems to have been forgotten by many, but not Lucas.) However, theJedi Order took things to an extreme, and created an imbalance, and a fatally effective case of tunnel vision. A more balanced perception & use of The Force could create an Order that is still standing in the Light, but at the same time understands the surrounding Darkness. And emotional detachment is good in the courtroom, but when confronting many foes with lightsaber in hand, might a little passion for justice might be a good thing too?

ShadowCell: You bring up a good question. If the Jedi Order as a galactic force is spent, but the Force endures, then is it possible for a successor order to be re-established? The Jedi Knights were created to bring Force users of a certain mindset together and train them to use their abiliies for the greater good, not their own enhancement and advancement. Why can't Master Luke Skywalker start over again on a new path? It is a question that goes beyond knee-jerk fan prejudices.

Areku: I would definitely say that Luke got a good start & grounding with Ben Kenobi and Yoda. But he learned much situational experience concerning the Force from Darth Vader as well. Both sets of lessons ought to be distilled into his teachings. Not moral equivalence, but an understanding of the Dark Side process that is a notable blind spot in other Jedi characters.
"I am fire. I am death. I am Hashmal."

"Discontent is the first step in the progress for a man or a nation." - Oscar Wilde

User avatar
Amion
War-ending Idol Singer
Posts: 2108
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Amion » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:24 pm

There is also the possibility that Anakin's ghost did not get along well with the people he tried to murder, especially after they insisted he was irredeemable and stuff. And after they watched Luke burn Vader's corpse, something they could all get behind and laugh, commenced immediately after the credits started to furious bickering over Luke's next course of action... there's no telling what that did to him.
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

User avatar
azrael
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
Posts: 1022
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:28 pm

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by azrael » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:01 pm

Amion wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:24 pm
There is also the possibility that Anakin's ghost did not get along well with the people he tried to murder, especially after they insisted he was irredeemable and stuff....
I doubt that. I do think that Luke's failed attempt to restart the Jedi put him into depression (hence the line at the end of the teaser about the Jedi ending). Rey comes to him asking to be trained and he initially rejects since he doesn't want to repeat the last disaster but eventually relents.

Maybe Luke did try to restart the order and let his students dabble in the Dark Side, but from that allowed Ben/Kylo Ren be seduced. And then that ended badly.
"I dislike death indeed, but there is that which I dislike more than death, and therefore there are occasions when I will not avoid danger."

User avatar
Amion
War-ending Idol Singer
Posts: 2108
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:43 pm

Re: The Last Jedi

Post by Amion » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:54 pm

Sounds to me more like dear Nephew was just a Vader fanboy. The canon book Bloodline indicates Ben didn't know his grandfather was Vader until a few years or so before VII... and that presumably things took a bad turn around that time, maybe. Perhaps VIII will know the answers to the questions JJ didn't.
They don't know the power of a balanced vision.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest