Ground MS

RGM-79 GM · Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:50 pm

Is this what you meant Red?

http://z11.invisionfree.com/Gundam_Evol ... ntry514839

mcred23 · Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:54 pm

No, I posted a link to a different thread (Which I'll even post again!), where it states that the Federation has roughly 600 MS for the space offensive. The one you link to only details A Baoa Qu (Which gets roughly 300 MS total, going by the links).

Phantomexe87 · Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:03 pm

Fine, no thousands of GMs... though give it another few years of re-retconning, and I'll be in business.

But do we know the numbers of Guncanons.

mcred23 · Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:09 pm

Phantomexe87 wrote:Fine, no thousands of GMs... though give it another few years of re-retconning, and I'll be in business.

I hope for the sake of everyone that never happens.

Phantomexe87 wrote:But do we know the numbers of Guncanons.

IIRC, counting the various MSV units and the dozen-or-so RX-77-2 units, I think 20-to-30 were built total (Not counting the RX-77D Mass Production Type, as I'm not sure how many of those were built).

RGM-79 GM · Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:14 pm

mcred23 wrote:No, I posted a link to a different thread (Which I'll even post again!), where it states that the Federation has roughly 600 MS for the space offensive. The one you link to only details A Baoa Qu (Which gets roughly 300 MS total, going by the links).

I know what thread you posted a link to but you said it wasn't the one you were actually looking for so I was wondering if the one I posted was the one you were looking for cause it was the only one I could remember that mentioned how many MS the Feds had.

Phantomexe87 · Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:02 pm

Hmm, should probably compile a comprehensive list of all the MS numbers for the OYW, or the Federation's anyway. For the Zeon it should be relatively easy, as they tend to state the numbers. IE 800 Zaku Is, 30 MS-14S Gelgoogs, etc.

Oh well, I'll leave it to the experts.

J-Lead · Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:11 pm

Just throwing this out there, but most of the kill counts I can find are from Library of Londenion (I don't know where to find newer sources that give an official explanation in english,) and they separate the kills into MS and ships (they don't mention fighters.)

http://side7.gundam.com/rgz/chara/chara.html

Then again, their main source is Entertainment Bible, and some of the information in those books has been negated by newer sources...

(Retconning...really makes me tired sometimes... It's exactly why I never trust numbers 100%.)

Mark064 · Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:40 pm

And it's been constnatly shown in break downs that while there are only ship and MS cateogrories, the MS category not only includes MS but fighters, tanks and what not. The kill counts are still repeated in newer sources as well and have not been changed.

Phantomexe87 · Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:48 pm

Even if the number 600 is wrong, I doubt that those numbers are right, though I don't see how they can count a Tank or Fighter for the same as a mobile suit, or it could just be the Zeon grossly exagerrating their victories, like the Soviets did in WWII. Like in one battle, Stalin claimed they killed more Germans in that single battle, than there were even German soldiers.

mcred23 · Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:54 pm

They can count them all very simply. For most of the war, the probably just listed kills as kills, be them fighters or tanks, since to all of those Zeon pilots, they were just non-MS enemy units. When GM's and other Federation units started to show up, they just made the tallies be "Enemy Units" rather than specificing whether the unit in question was a tank or an aircraft or a mobile suit or whatever (Ships, being much harder and more prestigious to kill, are always listed separately).

Given how much better MS were than tanks and fighters, and how much action some of those men saw in that year, it wouldn't seem unlikely to me than a number of those men killed well over a hundred fighters or tanks. We've had real world people do such things, and they didn't have anywhere near the advantage over their enemies these Zeon pilots had.

Duo · Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:32 pm

Phantomexe87 wrote:Even if the number 600 is wrong, I doubt that those numbers are right, though I don't see how they can count a Tank or Fighter for the same as a mobile suit, or it could just be the Zeon grossly exagerrating their victories, like the Soviets did in WWII. Like in one battle, Stalin claimed they killed more Germans in that single battle, than there were even German soldiers.

And that is what we call Propaganda to improve Morale... For all we know the Zeons did add 2, 3, or 100 kills to the total record of their side? Nothing proves or disproves that.

Also why wouldn't you count tanks or fighters in the Zeon kills with MS? Tanks and fighters were all the Feddies had before they had the Gundam, Guntank, and Guncannon. Main combatents are main combatents inmy opinion. I mean, if you were playing a shoot'em up game, would you count someone throwing only grenades at you differently then someone that had an AK-47 in a kill count?

"Kamille! Kamille! · Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:41 pm

here are the "official" totals from entertainment bible 39

http://side7.gundam.com/rgz/info/ace.html

RGM-79 GM · Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:49 pm

Most or all of the Fed kills in that list are MS, tanks, fighters, and other units also not just Zeon's.(Amuro's is one of the Feds like that).

Now I'm not sure if it is considered canon but MS Era says that because of minovsky particles it was hard to tell if the pilot actually got a kill or if they weren't able to see it correctly and that cause of that the total kill count of Zeon MS pilots was higher than GMs production run.

Now the same thing probably happened with the Feds also but they had beam weapons in space which would lower the chances of that happening and on the ground their machine guns were better for taking out MS than the Zeon ones.

Phantomexe87 · Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:53 pm

Taking out a tank is a lot easier than a mobile suit obviously, thus they shouldn't be counted on the same level. Course, propoganda, they would, probably.

RGM-79 GM · Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:02 pm

It may be easier than taking out a MS in some ways but it is in no way easy. A tank can still take out a MS in one or two shots depending on where it is hit. The MS can dodge easier that is biggest advantage the MS have.

That and the Feds won at Odessa with tanks and fighters and minimal MS support. So the tanks could win it was just harder than a MS taking out a MS. Zakus are little more than walking tanks. Leos more than Zakus though.

Phantomexe87 · Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:11 pm

The Federation in all likeliness, sent out thousands of Tanks, and thousands of fighters, to fight likely less than a 100 mobile suits. If we were talking about the Hildolfr, I would agree, but the Type 61 is little more than a speed bump to even a Zaku I, and a fighter, I suppose would be fairly effective, but is little more than a mosquito to most later mobile suits, like the Gouf or Dom.

RGM-79 GM · Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:24 pm

Even with the thousands of them not all went into combat and there were more than 100 Zeon MS at Odessa IIRC. By that time the Feds made strategies to take out MS while using tanks. Also the tanks were supported by fighters fairly often.

No it isn't that easy to destroy a Type-61. Zakus were easily destroyed by a Type-61's cannons they could just dodge easier than a tank which gave them higher survivability. The Zaku I would do rather poorly against Type-61s compared to the Zaku II. One or two Type-61s could take out a Zaku I. A Zaku II is slightly faster and would provide more trouble for tanks. One of the main reason the Feds did so poorly with their tanks was that they weren't used to fighting MS and their radar was useless so they could be ambushed by the MS.

Fighters were very effective against MS like Zakus and Goufs. The Dom's default weapons aren't good for taking out fighters. The Gouf's default weapons aren't either except the 120mm machine gun but it was still hard to hit them same with Zakus.

Phantomexe87 · Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:31 pm

Yes, but tanks can't jump or duck, a Zaku obviously can. This also assuming the Zaku would just run at the tank, with no cover, in almost all terrains, the Zaku would have the overwhelming advantage, hence why they used mobile suits on Earth in the first place.

With all the minosky particles and what not, the fighter's main weapon, the heat seeking missiles are rendered just about useless, thus the fighter has to come pretty close to actually attack the Mobile suits, which would be its end, they could only do this in overwhelming numbers. Granted, the fighters might not be shot down easily, but they didn't pose too much of a threat.

The point is, fighters and tanks are vastly inferior to mobile suits, and as such should be not count the same in a kill score, and as far as I am aware, they usually aren't. If ships are counted seperate, so should tanks and fighters.

RGM-79 GM · Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:40 pm

On earth it is like this Fighters>most MS>tanks. In space MS>fighters.

I said the tanks can't dodge as well. I never said they would run right at the tanks but the tank gunners can lead on the Zakus. Not really that close. It could come up from behind the Zaku and since Zakus are so slow they would have trouble dodging the missles form the front or back. The fighters tended to distract Zeon pilots from the tanks and vice-versa and they were damaged or destroyed by the other.

No they are not vastly superior. MS are just like a combonation of tanks and fighters. They have weapons and armor like tanks and are able to boost around at higer speeds like fighters. Well you are wrong they are counted in the same kill score. Red already said that.

Mark064 · Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:44 pm

RGM-79 GM wrote:Most or all of the Fed kills in that list are MS, tanks, fighters, and other units also not just Zeon's.(Amuro's is one of the Feds like that).

From this bad writing it's hard to tell what you are really saying. But that is a OYW kill count, and is pretty much just Zeon and Federation... I doubt any of the Aces went to take out Side 6 units. Amuro's kill count is the only break down we get from the OYW giving him around 50 non-MS and the rest are MS.

Now I'm not sure if it is considered canon but MS Era says that because of minovsky particles it was hard to tell if the pilot actually got a kill or if they weren't able to see it correctly and that cause of that the total kill count of Zeon MS pilots was higher than GMs production run.

Now the same thing probably happened with the Feds also but they had beam weapons in space which would lower the chances of that happening and on the ground their machine guns were better for taking out MS than the Zeon ones.

I think what MS era falsely assumes is that MS just means MS. So by that yeah Zeon would have more then GMs produced.

Even if the number 600 is wrong, I doubt that those numbers are right, though I don't see how they can count a Tank or Fighter for the same as a mobile suit, or it could just be the Zeon grossly exagerrating their victories, like the Soviets did in WWII. Like in one battle, Stalin claimed they killed more Germans in that single battle, than there were even German soldiers.

Except even if it is propoganda the Federation is doing the exact same thing (see above from Amuro's kill count). Regardless a kill is a kill, even though it just says MS and the above listed it includes MAs. I think the lists just simplifies this down into making two categories instead of going through the trouble and making up numbers for all the MS, MA, Planes, Tanks, etc that has gone through by an Ace. Also leaves it up to fans imagination of how many MS they took out.