SEED G.U.N.D.A.M.S.

[ORegan]

hey the O'Regan Gundam would be the most kickass thing to ever be drawn on paper since sliced bread!

but so just as a summary from what everyone said: Gundams don't exist in CE, but they have equivalents.

but honestly if you name things like Chaos and Calamity...it's kinda pointless without a surname for it.

[Aegis]

Already got an Aegis Gundam.

[ORegan]

according to this topic, its not a gundam, since it is a CE MS

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

It's not like it makes much of a difference anyway. A mobile suit doesn't magically become higher performing because you call it a Gundam.

[ORegan]

but the plot shielding works wonders

[Wingnut]

but the plot shielding works wonders

Watch it. Those words are practically forbidden around here.

Seriously, try and avoid using that term if at all possible.

In-universe Kirby that would be true, but in the real world, giving a MS the Gundam moniker automatically raises its power level. Sometimes to absurd levels.

[Annon Kaies Zi]

The way I see it, there's no such thing as a "Gundam" in any of the universes; whether it be UC, AW, CE, et cetera. Gundam, even in Universal Century, is just a name given to a mobile suit that has the same general look and features as the RX-78 series. There's nothing that really makes the Zeta Gundam a Gundam...it's just part of the name. From what I understand, in UC, a Gundam is a Gundam if "Gundam" is in it's name. That simple. There's nothing overly special about them, other than the fact that they seem to be more powerful than a normal mobile suit, and in a lot of cases have some sort of Newtype feature. But, really, it's just the name.

Even in AC, there's not a stone definition. While it seems at first like any mobile suit made out of Gundanium Alloy is a Gundam, what about Vayeate and Mercurius? They aren't considered Gundams, but are in fact made out of Gundanium Alloy.

In CE, the Gundams all run on the G.U.N.D.A.M. operating system. So, really, it seems what makes a Gundam a Gundam is the OS. I haven't seen all of SEED, so this might be proven wrong later in the series. And it just so happens that those mobile suits also have similar features. Gundam's in the name, and in the OS. That's all that really counts.

Similar things for AW, FC, and CC. A Gundam, in most cases, is only a Gundam if the word is in its name. That's why Turn A Gundam is a Gundam...yet Turn X isn't.

The other reason? Well, because Sunrise and Bandai said so. It's an anime...if SEED didn't have Gundams, who would it be called Mobile Suit Gundam SEED? Same with the other series.

In-universe Kirby that would be true, but in the real world, giving a MS the Gundam moniker automatically raises its power level. Sometimes to absurd levels.

Does it raise it to...OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!!!!!!

[Sabersonic]

Well I'm not sure if this fact is true or not, considering that it was found on a fansub, but during the early episodes of the Sea Orc arc of Gundam X I believe, one of the henchmen of Doza Bale mentioned something about the addition of the D-Navi or something to that effect would make their mobile suits equal to a Gundam-Type mobile suit. However Doza stated that he wanted a real Gundam.

If I'm reading this, and remembering this correctly, then apparently the gundams of the After War calendar are more then something that has the name Gundam slapped onto it.

[Haros_Pet_Kat]

The way I see it, there's no such thing as a "Gundam" in any of the universes; whether it be UC, AW, CE, et cetera. Gundam, even in Universal Century, is just a name given to a mobile suit that has the same general look and features as the RX-78 series. There's nothing that really makes the Zeta Gundam a Gundam...it's just part of the name. From what I understand, in UC, a Gundam is a Gundam if "Gundam" is in it's name. That simple. There's nothing overly special about them, other than the fact that they seem to be more powerful than a normal mobile suit, and in a lot of cases have some sort of Newtype feature. But, really, it's just the name.

The Universal Century definition of a Gundam is a testbed of advanced features that are to see if they are worth researching enough to make said features inexpensive enough and practical enough for grunts to use.

Usually said features are indeed able to put a Gundam ahead of the pack, such as the RX-78-2 dominating with its beam technology, while in Zeta Gundam you see a bunch of better versions of the RX-78 running around.

I actually consider the Zeta itself an exception to the rule. Yeah, it made way for the bio-computer/bio-sensor (I forgot which one it has), but it was practically made for Kamille's fighting style, and it uses a lot of technology featured earlier in the series (transformation, wave rider, etc...), making it more of a "Newtype-use Ace Pilot Suit" (kind of like Alex!) instead of a pure prototype.

Even in AC, there's not a stone definition. While it seems at first like any mobile suit made out of Gundanium Alloy is a Gundam, what about Vayeate and Mercurius? They aren't considered Gundams, but are in fact made out of Gundanium Alloy.

Mercruius and Vayette are definitely Gundams. I still hear Lady Une's words ring in my head, "We'll make mobile suits, no, our own Gundams!" I think Lady Une wanted to make a Gundam, while still having OZ's square-eye design (having the guts to still use your own design is something ZAFT never learned when they made their own Gundams).

[Wingnut]

Well the Gundams of that period have far more, I'm not sure what to call it, but they have a lot more of it because of what they were involved in.
It was a Gundam that fired the shot that led to the death of 99% of the human population after all. There is also the intimidation factor in facing a Gundam as well that can have low-end grunts crapping their pants if one comes up as their opponent.
Also the D-Navi really only works in the water. I'm sure Doza wanted something he could have on the surface to show off to opponents and allies alike as a symbol of the power at his command.

Edit: @HPK: No. Lady Une said that they would be making mobile suits that were better than the Gundams. Une didn't want anything that was of the rebellion, even just a name, as part of OZ. So she told the 5 farts to make MS that were better than the Gundams, not Gundams with a different head.

[Annon Kaies Zi]

The Universal Century definition of a Gundam is a testbed of advanced features that are to see if they are worth researching enough to make said features inexpensive enough and practical enough for grunts to use.

Usually said features are indeed able to put a Gundam ahead of the pack, such as the RX-78-2 dominating with its beam technology, while in Zeta Gundam you see a bunch of better versions of the RX-78 running around.

I actually consider the Zeta itself an exception to the rule. Yeah, it made way for the bio-computer/bio-sensor (I forgot which one it has), but it was practically made for Kamille's fighting style, and it uses a lot of technology featured earlier in the series (transformation, wave rider, etc...), making it more of a "Newtype-use Ace Pilot Suit" (kind of like Alex!) instead of a pure prototype.

Then why aren't Guntank and Guncannon considered Gundams? They seem to both employ features that weren't seen before, and later are many inexpensive and mass-produced. Again, why the majority of Gundams in Universal Century seems to possess the qualities that you stated, it's never written in stone and never blatantly stated. However, for the most part, I do agree with your definiton.

Mercruius and Vayette are definitely Gundams. I still hear Lady Une's words ring in my head, "We'll make mobile suits, no, our own Gundams!" I think Lady Une wanted to make a Gundam, while still having OZ's square-eye design (having the guts to still use your own design is something ZAFT never learned when they made their own Gundams).

They are never referred to as Gundams, nor do their official names have Gundam in it. When she said "[make] our own Gundams," I believe she meant their own mobile suits that resemble the Gundams in power, not Gundams themselves. Otherwise they would, in fact, be referred to as Gundams the way I see it. Now, I could be wrong to every degree. But I don't see how they can be considered Gundams unless they have the name. Same way that Turn X can't just be considered a Gundam because he has many of the same features as Turn A Gundam (almost to the extent of well exceeding Turn A Gundam). Turn X is, simply, not a Gundam. He is never said to be, never referred to as, and not officially said so by Sunrise/Bandai/Tomino.

[Haros_Pet_Kat]

Then why aren't Guntank and Guncannon considered Gundams?

I was telling you what a Gundam was, not that every mobile suit that falled under that definition somehow was a Gundam. I am telling you that Gundams exist in UC, because you somehow want us to think they don't (other than being the name of a GM or something).

They are never referred to as Gundams, nor do their official names have Gundam in it. When she said "[make] our own Gundams," I believe she meant their own mobile suits that resemble the Gundams in power, not Gundams themselves. Otherwise they would, in fact, be referred to as Gundams the way I see it. Now, I could be wrong to every degree. But I don't see how they can be considered Gundams unless they have the name. Same way that Turn X can't just be considered a Gundam because he has many of the same features as Turn A Gundam (almost to the extent of well exceeding Turn A Gundam). Turn X is, simply, not a Gundam. He is never said to be, never referred to as, and not officially said so by Sunrise/Bandai/Tomino.

Fine. Mercrius and Vayette aren't Gundams...

[Gadget]

Didn't we walk this path before. What makes a MS a Gundam.

I thought we concluded that a Gundam is a Gundam when Bandai/Sunrise calls it a Gundam?

That is the only way to explain the inconsistency in calling something a Gundam.

[Haros_Pet_Kat]

Yeah... I just wanted to say that there is a reason why some UC Gundams are Gundams in the first place instead of just being grunts, but ended up thinking that Mercrius and Vayette were called Gundams at one point.

[Cardi Doorl]

The Universal Century definition of a Gundam is a testbed of advanced features that are to see if they are worth researching enough to make said features inexpensive enough and practical enough for grunts to use.

I hate sounding like a broken record here, but a Gundam is a Gundam if it fits what I megalomaniacally refer to as Doorl's Law of Gundam Nomelcature, which applies to all universes except CE, insofar as no exceptions have been found in said universes. The law, of course, is that a mobile weapon is a Gundam if said mobile weapon has the word "Gundam" in the codename somewheres.

I think what Annon was getting at here, though (though his choice of words may be mangling his meaning, or maybe I mistake his point entirely regardless) was that a mobile weapon being a "Gundam" shouldn't really mean much entirely because it is, after all, just a name and nothing else. I guess in a way the word adds hype because (as I've always heard, no concrete source ) model kits that're Gundams generally sell much more successfully than others - not that I'll ever understand that, since I've always far preferred villain suits with monoeyes anyway.

EDIT: Wait, is my choice of words the one mangling meaning now!

[Haros_Pet_Kat]

I know, but I was trying to at least provide an in-universe explanation.

[Annon Kaies Zi]

I know, but I was trying to at least provide an in-universe explanation.

I understand that. And please don't feel as though my previous statements are an attack on what you're trying to say. This is only my opinion. I'm just stating that Gundam is a term that becomes very loose in Universal Century (and pretty much in all time lines). The definition you gave is pretty much accurate...to what are already called Gundams. But, by the definition, other Federation/Whatnot mobile suits should ALSO be called Gundams (such as the Guntank and Guncannon, like stated above). And if a definition is only sometimes followed, it's not really a definition.

Again, what you said is true for the most part. However, not concrete as it doesn't apply to any mobile suit except the ones with Gundam already in the name. Like I said before, and like Cardi Doorl also said, what makes a Gundam a Gundam is if Sunrise/Bandai says so. It really is that simple. People have gone out of their way to make definitions for what a Gundam is in all of the various universes, and none are actually concrete. The matter of the fact is that Gundam is only a name. The only real in-universe definition for Universal Century is that a Gundam is a Gundam if the maker/manufacturer in the series calls it such. And, for the most part, Gundams in Universal Century always trace back to the RX-78 series of mobile suits in terms of apperance and ability in relation to the technology in which that Gundam was made (na, I won't go back to revise that sentence). But even that is not always consistent. So, again, there is no real definition and there never will be.

Because when it boils down to it, it's an Anime. It's not real life, so things are not always clearly defined. Fans try to make things make sense, but if the original creator didn't have it make sense to begin with, it will never make sense. When Tomino made Mobile Suit Gundam, therefore making the RX-78-2, I can't imagine he ever though of it as more than a name. And when he made Zeta Gundam, I'm sure he just carried over the name to the RX-178 because that suit was built off of the RX-78-2 (so Gundam Mk. II as a name fits). Then when he made Zeta Gundam, it was built off the RX-178. Then when...well, you get the point. It evolves from that, and when that happens things become blurry. And since it's an Anime, that allowed to happen. It is made for entertainment. And it's not entertaining to have series named Mobile Suit Zeta Gundam (and many, many more after it) when, in fact, there's no mobile suit with the name "Gundam." And Mobile Suit Zeta alone just sounds ridiculous. It's a franchise, there has to be a connection; but this connection doesn't always have to be perfectly consistent.

[Haros_Pet_Kat]

But, by the definition, other Federation/Whatnot mobile suits should ALSO be called Gundams (such as the Guntank and Guncannon, like stated above)

Except that neither the Guntank nor Guncannon were as popular as the Gundam. I'm not sure how well they did in the OYW since I haven't seen all of MSG, but judging by the metagame of post-OYW, the Gundam had a far more impact as a combination of agility and power, although I do admit that the Guntank and Guncannon do make reappearances during the F90/F91 era.

what makes a Gundam a Gundam is if Sunrise/Bandai says so. It really is that simple.

And then there is the in-universe reason that Sunrise/Bandai needs to come up with as to why there is another Gundam running around. It's that simple too.

And, for the most part, Gundams in Universal Century always trace back to the RX-78 series of mobile suits in terms of apperance and ability in relation to the technology in which that Gundam was made

And that, is why the Guncannon and Guntank are not called Gundams, heh.

Because when it boils down to it, it's an Anime. It's not real life

Duh. It's why I've been throwing around the phrase "in-universe" the whole time. I don't care what the makers of Gundam have been thinking in real life. I'm more worried about the in-universe reasoning as to why the Federation, a fictional organization in an anime, continues to make Gundams... And since it's an anime and not real life, they have every right to continue doing so.

So maybe it doesn't make sense... So what? The Federation wants to make Gundams, and they have a reason to do so, and that's because they need a better suit, so they make an ace pilot-use mobile suit that uses new technology, see how well it works (which does most of the time because a Newtype uses the mobile suit), then they figure out how to incorporate that into grunts, even if it takes awhile.

So what if fans are trying to make sense of it? That's because they're fans, and they have fun doing so.

[razgriz]

oh boy here goes another what makes really makes a gundam thread. this could get ugly

[ORegan]

maybe i should parrallel what someone said here about the "it is if they say it is" thing. is a toyota corrola a corvette if corvette makes somehting exactly like it and slaps on the corvette name?