Hyaku Shiki and Proto Zeta

[toysdream]

Since this came up in the FAZZ and Gerbera Tetra thread, here's a rundown of the conflicting explanations for how the non-transforming MSZ-006X Prototype Zeta Gundam relates to the Hyaku Shiki and the overall Zeta Project.


Let's start with Entertainment Bible 2, the first place (outside of B-CLUB magazine) where the Proto Zeta Gundam appeared. Here's an excerpt from the book's "MS Development History" section:

Knowing of the existence of the Gaza, Anaheim and the AEUG decided to introduce this transformable mobile suit concept into the so-called "Zeta Project," a program to develop a high-performance mobile suit which would serve as a symbol of both organization. Design changes were made to the movable frame of the MSN-00100 Hyaku Shiki, which had entered development after the Rick Dias, in an attempt to add transformation mechanisms. However, the attempt failed and it was changed back to a normal mobile suit. This was because they had tried to achieve a fairly complex transformation, for which they needed to accumulate more data.

Thus the MSA-005 Methuss and its simplified transformation mechanisms were created. A prototype machine was completed with little difficulty, making it possible to obtain data, but its mobile suit form was of a very different style from previous machines. After the completion of the MSZ-006X Proto Zeta Gundam, the Zeta Gundam officially entered development. However, although there were no flaws in the transformation mechanisms, excessive metal fatigue was observed while operating in mobile suit form. It was determined that this was a defect in the design of the frame itself.

As the program was struggling, Anaheim took delivery of the Gundam Mark II developed by the Titans. Although this wasn't even a second-generation machine, the novel design concepts of its movable frame, and the design plans stored on the floppy disk that accompanied it, triggered a hasty reevaluation of new machine types. This led to the completion of the MSZ-006 Zeta Gundam, a transformable mobile suit which could change into a wave rider with atmospheric entry capabilities.

Entertainment Bible 2 also has a brief profile for the Proto Zeta itself in the "MS Design Collection" section at the back of the book:

MSZ-006-X1~X3 PROTO ZETA GUNDAM

The prototype of the MSZ-006. Transformation mechanisms have not been introduced at this point.

So far so good. The profiles from the Entertainment Bibles were then compiled into the MS Encyclopedia, which features a longer profile for the Proto Zeta:

The prototype of the MSZ-006. It had already been rolled out by the time Anaheim received the RX-178. This machine was developed as a non-transforming model. The MSZ-006 was completed in a short time using the frame and avionics from this machine.

The early editions of the MS Encyclopedia also included a mobile suit development flowchart which indicated that the Hyaku Shiki was based on the Proto Zeta. Remember that for later.


More recently, the Proto Zeta received a longer profile in the G Generation game series:

An AEUG prototype attack mobile suit. This is one of the prototype machines created as part of the Zeta Project, Anaheim's new mobile suit development program. The predecessor to the Zeta Gundam, it was originally developed as a non-transforming mobile suit. However, the company's development of transformable mobile suits accelerated when it obtained the movable frame technology of the Gundam Mark II, and this machine was redesigned as a transformable model. Using the frame and avionics from this machine, the Zeta Gundam was completed as a transformable mobile suit. Although the X1's head is a Hyaku Shiki type, there is also an X2 model with a Dias head and an X3 model with a Nemo series head.

The Master Grade Zeta Gundam kit manual pretty much repeats what we already know:

March, U.C. 0087. Having captured the RX-178 Gundam Mark II from a Titans facility, the AEUG obtain movable frame technology from this machine, and meanwhile develop the Flying Armor as an atmospheric entry option. Then, after the Jaburo landing operation, a Zeta Gundam with the ability to transform into a wave rider is completed, using the previously developed MSZ-006X type as a base.

And then finally, we have the recent Data Collection 5, whose "MS Development History" says the following:

The Prototype Zeta Gundam that served as a development base for the Zeta Gundam was a machine developed before the capture of the Gundam Mark II, and it incorporated Anaheim's distinctive block buildup concept. This was meant to improve production and maintenance efficiency by dividing each part of the machine into a separate block. However, making each part independent created many problems, and improvements to the control system were also evaluated in other machines. The base design of the Hyaku Shiki was created by adding the movable frame concept to this machine. Then, by incorporating the plans provided by Kamille, it was redesigned as a transformable mobile suit.

Ultimately, it proved possible to complete the Zeta Gundam in a very short time by using movable frame construction for the modules required for transformation, while taking the necessary weapons, generators, and so forth from the prototype version. Meanwhile, the Flying Armor was developed to evaluate the atmospheric entry capabilities which were the Zeta Gundam's most distinctive feature, and this was introduced into combat during the capture of Jaburo.

In other words, all these sources agree that the MSZ-006 Zeta Gundam was created by adding Gundam Mark II movable frame technology and wave rider capabilities to the non-transforming Proto Zeta Gundam. But past that, things get pretty confusing.

Entertainment Bible 2 says that the Proto Zeta was developed after the Hyaku Shiki and the Methuss, perhaps just to gather data on the Zeta Gundam's mobile suit form (which couldn't be obtained with the Methuss). But Data Collection 5, and the development flowchart in the early MS Encylopedias, claim that the Hyaku Shiki was actually based on the Proto Zeta, and that the Zeta Gundam wasn't originally supposed to transform at all. The G Generation profile likewise says that the Proto Zeta was originally developed as a non-transforming machine and was only redesigned as a transformable type after the developers obtained the Gundam Mark II's movable frame technology.

So where does this leave the Hyaku Shiki? Well, although we have a couple of claims that it's based on the Proto Zeta, most other sources seem to agree that it's just a "rival candidate" for the Zeta Gundam which failed to pass muster as a transformable mobile suit. While it's often described as being a spinoff of the Zeta Project, it doesn't seem to have had a direct influence on the design of the Zeta Gundam itself.

-- Mark

[wing zero alpha]

I thought in the original Z Gundam TV series, Kamille claimed to have designed the Zeta Gundam himself by taking data from the Gundam Mark II and the Rick Dias. I know that doesn't really make sense considering neither mobile suit is a transformable type, but from the sound of things, that claim is retconned with the establishment of the Prototype Zeta being completed sometime before the acquisition of the Mark II and subsequently Kamille joining the AEUG.

Or have I missed something vital?

[Hyakushiki]

Thank you sir enlightening us all.


bows humbly

[toysdream]

I thought in the original Z Gundam TV series, Kamille claimed to have designed the Zeta Gundam himself by taking data from the Gundam Mark II and the Rick Dias. I know that doesn't really make sense considering neither mobile suit is a transformable type, but from the sound of things, that claim is retconned with the establishment of the Prototype Zeta being completed sometime before the acquisition of the Mark II and subsequently Kamille joining the AEUG.

I think that's what the Data Collection 5 text is alluding to when it mentions "incorporating the plans provided by Kamille." Literally, the Japanese text calls this Kamille's "plot," which sounds odd in English but presumably refers to the blueprints we see Kamille working on in the animation.

In this case, I guess we're meant to assume that Anaheim had already completed the Proto Zeta, but the design was radically revised after they received Kamille's blueprints and the accompanying Gundam Mark II frame technology. Perhaps the final Zeta Gundam is a hybrid of Anaheim's Proto Zeta and Kamille's fantasy machine.

-- Mark

[domtropen]

Maybe Kamille is the one designing how Zeta transform? Maybe he incooperates MK II's movable frame tech and Rick Dias's modular design [binder addons and thrusters-on-the-butt] together? Zeta does have main thrusters on legs and rear skirt, and its wing binder, stabilizer and shield can be exchanged for various needs shown in PG manual and the new MS Graphica. Proto Zeta, however, seems to have normal backpack.

Zeta vs Shiki would be like Nemo vs Marasai? However this time both seem to fail till Kamille comes up with the proper design? Anaheim seems to have continued developing Methuss further to Methuss Kai, so is it possible that, if there is no contribution from Kamille, Zeta may end up just another prototype non transforming MS modified to be combat ready given to one of the aces as something a bit better than Rick Dias?

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

this wasn't even a second-generation machine

Not directly related to this conversation, but this caught my eye. What exactly is their definition of a second-generation machine (or a first, for that matter)?

[toysdream]

Maybe Kamille is the one designing how Zeta transform?

Actually, that seems quite possible. When Kamille first mentions his Zeta Gundam in episode 6, he just says it combines elements from the Rick Dias and Gundam Mark II. But when the Flying Armor is delivered in episode 10, Astonaige says it was Kamille's idea to give the Zeta atmospheric entry capabilities. Astonaige adds that the Flying Armor is a prototype created using the Zeta's transformation parts. Judging from this, it seems as if atmospheric entry and transformation - in other words, the whole wave rider concept - were part of Kamille's original design.

In this case, it's hard to see what the Proto Zeta really contributed, or why Anaheim even created it in the first place. If it was originally just a high-performance non-transforming mobile suit, then it doesn't seem like much of an improvement over the Hyaku Shiki. But judging from the animation, it seems like Data Collection 5 and the G Generation profile are correct, and that the Zeta Gundam is the product of a sudden redesign after Kamille's ideas and the theft of the Mark II made it possible to build a transforming mobile suit. The Proto Zeta, in that case, ended up contributing little more than a bunch of spare parts.

Zeta vs Shiki would be like Nemo vs Marasai?

That was my initial assumption, yeah. But while it's generally agreed that the Hyaku Shiki was a failed attempt to create a transformable mobile suit, it's starting to seem as if the Zeta Gundam wasn't even intended to transform until Kamille came along. Perhaps, if Kamille had known about the Hyaku Shiki, he would have spent his time fixing that instead of designing an all-new transformable machine.

Anaheim seems to have continued developing Methuss further to Methuss Kai, so is it possible that, if there is no contribution from Kamille, Zeta may end up just another prototype non transforming MS modified to be combat ready given to one of the aces as something a bit better than Rick Dias?

That seems pretty likely. The fact that there are so many Methuss variants, including the Guncannon Detector, Methuss Mariner, and Zeta II, indicates that the AEUG could have gotten a lot of mileage out of that design. In fact, the Argama alone seems to go through at least three Methuss units during the course of the show!

this wasn't even a second-generation machine

Not directly related to this conversation, but this caught my eye. What exactly is their definition of a second-generation machine (or a first, for that matter)?

The definition established in The Anime's books, and echoed in the Entertainment Bible series, requires a movable frame, a panoramic cockpit with a linear seat, and Gundarium alloy armor. Even though its movable frame is much more advanced than that of the Rick Dias, the Mark II isn't considered a second-generation machine simply because it isn't made from Gundarium. Instead, the Rick Dias is considered the first true second-generation mobile suit.

This system starts to break down again when we get mobile suits like the Jegan and Geara Doga, which revert to plain titanium alloy armor and thus shouldn't count as second-generation machines. But this whole "generation" system was only invented to describe Zeta and ZZ mobile suits, so it's not surprising that it breaks down once we get to Char's Counterattack.

-- Mark

[Hyakushiki]

It might refer to MS using the newer gundanium gamma armor the gundam mk. II and GM II use older luna titanium armor.

EDIT: reply to Brave Fencer Kirby's post.

[Pegasus]

I think the question that comes to mind to me is who exactly named the Zeta Gundam? Kamille stated that he thought he'd call his design the Zeta Gundam. Anaheim supposedly have this "Proto Zeta Gundam" knocking around before they got their grubby little mits on the Gundam Mark II's movable frame. Was the name retroactively changed after they got Kamille's plans or was it all just an amazing coincidence?

[Mark064]

Entertainment Bible 2 says that the Proto Zeta was developed after the Hyaku Shiki and the Methuss, perhaps just to gather data on the Zeta Gundam's mobile suit form (which couldn't be obtained with the Methuss). But Data Collection 5, and the development flowchart in the early MS Encylopedias, claim that the Hyaku Shiki was actually based on the Proto Zeta, and that the Zeta Gundam wasn't originally supposed to transform at all. The G Generation profile likewise says that the Proto Zeta was originally developed as a non-transforming machine and was only redesigned as a transformable type after the developers obtained the Gundam Mark II's movable frame technology.

If the Zeta Gundam wasn't originally supposed to transform at all wouldn't this change the whole plan for the Zeta Project? So instead of the Zeta Project being the transformable project it'd be the earlier Delta Project. And then perhaps AE was planning on picking up the idea later and just push out a non transforming Zeta Gundam. But then due to the early development cycle of the Proto Zeta the idea was then changed to a transformed model with the advances of the Mark II and Camille's design. So then the whole rivalary between the two projects would basically be a transformable Delta vs a non transformable Zeta?

[Phantomexe87]

I would think the prototype would be MSZ-000, then 001, and so forth until you reach the final product of MSZ-006. So I wonder which units got the MSZ 000-5 monikers, as they weren't prototypes. As 007 was the Mass Production and the 008 was the Zeta II, prototype ZZ is 009 the ZZ is the MSZ-010. Or AE just randomly choose to start with the number MSZ-006.

[toysdream]

So many good questions! I told you this was pretty confusing.

I think the question that comes to mind to me is who exactly named the Zeta Gundam?

Excellent question. According to Tomino's novels, Anaheim was already using Greek letters for its Gundams, and the Rick Dias only avoided being called the "Gamma Gundam" because Char protested. So it's possible that Kamille knew this and decided to name his Gundam accordingly, although that still leaves the question of why he picked "Zeta." Did he know about the existing Zeta Project, or did he just think it sounded cool?

If the Zeta Gundam wasn't originally supposed to transform at all wouldn't this change the whole plan for the Zeta Project?

Absolutely! This leads us to the question of what the original goal for the Zeta Project was. The overall "G Project" that Anaheim launched in U.C. 0085, and which eventually led to everything from the Rick Dias to the ZZ Gundam, was just supposed to create high-performance mobile suits for the AEUG. The Zeta Project began as soon as the Rick Dias was completed, with the aim of creating a next-generation machine with even higher performance. The Japanese publications also claim that Anaheim and the AEUG took an early interest in transformable mobile suits, but this may have been on the "nice to have" rather than the "must-have" feature list.

As for the "must-have" features, the Japanese publications vary somewhat in their descriptions, but the general consensus is that the Zeta was supposed to be a flexible machine that could carry out a wide variety of tactical and mission roles. As per the HG-UC Hyaku Shiki kit manual, the original goal was "a highly versatile MS which can be deployed both in weightless space and under gravity." With the addition of transformation abilities and a wave rider form, this ended up being rephrased as "the ability to enter the atmosphere by itself with only standard equipment," which meant that the Zeta Gundam could go from space to Earth during the course of a single mission. Obviously that would be impossible for a non-transforming version, but I suppose it demonstrates the kind of versatility the designers were aiming for.

This may also help explain how the Hyaku Shiki fits into all this. There's never been any indication that the so-called "Delta Gundam" would have had wave rider features, but the HG-UC kit manual claims that the Hyaku Shiki was originally developed as a high-speed fighter mobile suit, so perhaps Anaheim's engineers figured that the ability to transform into a mobile armor form would be a nice bonus. By this view, transformation features weren't a unique focus of the Zeta Project, but rather something that Anaheim and the AEUG were trying to integrate into all their current mobile suit development projects.

So then the whole rivalary between the two projects would basically be a transformable Delta vs a non transformable Zeta?

Possibly so. Or perhaps, as I suggested above, the Delta and Zeta were two parallel projects with different goals (high-speed fighter versus all-purpose tactical weapon), both of which just happened to end up as guinea pigs for the new "TMS" concept.

I would think the prototype would be MSZ-000, then 001, and so forth until you reach the final product of MSZ-006. So I wonder which units got the MSZ 000-5 monikers, as they weren't prototypes. As 007 was the Mass Production and the 008 was the Zeta II, prototype ZZ is 009 the ZZ is the MSZ-010.

Anaheim's model numbers actually seem to be consecutive across all mobile suit series, regardless of prefix. First comes the RMS-099 (MSA-099) Rick Dias, then the MSN-00100 Hyaku Shiki, which serves as both number 100 and number 001. Then we get the Marasai (developed as the MSA-002), the MSA-003 Nemo, the MSA-005 Methuss, the MSZ-006 Zeta Gundam, the MSZ-010 ZZ Gundam, and the MSA-0011 Superior Gundam. There are a bunch of rival contenders for slots 007 and 008, though, including Karaba's MSK-008 Dijeh, so the system breaks down a bit in the middle.

-- Mark

[razgriz]

could the hyaku shiki ever been converted to transform? maybe to look something like the methuss?

[Mwulf]

Maybe... I can't remember if the HS was the first MS with a movable frame, or was designed to be the "best" and then became obsolete when the mobile frame came about.

I doubt it could transform like the Methuss, though. The Methuss transformation is pretty weird and pretty unique.

[Mark064]

They'd have to change the frame and the body. Sure it could be done but they'd be a lot better off building a new suit because a lot would have to be changed.

Rick Dias had a moveable frame same with Hyaku Shiki and the Methuss. However AE's version was flawed so creating a transformable MS without some weird Methuss body structured proved to be impossible.

Absolutely! This leads us to the question of what the original goal for the Zeta Project was. The overall "G Project" that Anaheim launched in U.C. 0085, and which eventually led to everything from the Rick Dias to the ZZ Gundam, was just supposed to create high-performance mobile suits for the AEUG. The Zeta Project began as soon as the Rick Dias was completed, with the aim of creating a next-generation machine with even higher performance. The Japanese publications also claim that Anaheim and the AEUG took an early interest in transformable mobile suits, but this may have been on the "nice to have" rather than the "must-have" feature list.

Hmmm nice to know my guess of the Delta Project being the transformable project wasn't too far off. But slightly off topic for AE's "G Project" how does everything else fit into it after the end of AEUG like the Mu and Nu? Did AE then decide to keep going on this whole "G Project" for just purely marketing reasons? Or is there another reason. And are the later design idea likes the Mu and Nu an extension of the original project or were originally planned as well and thus if the conflict was expanded AEUG would have then gotten their own versions. Yeah I know I'm asking too many questions...

[razgriz]

it just makes the methuss that much more special then. weird yes, fragile yes, durable hell yes!

i cant see the HS transformed anyway, its better as the golden ninja boy than looking like some golden broken legged whooping crane

[DeltasTaii]

Randomly, I'll chuck in some observations relative to the Hyaku Shiki's model number

a) The "meant to last 100 years" bit. Had the thing been a fully realized, transforming, supersuit with features not even seen in the Zeta Gundam, this statement may have been less of a hyperbole

b) The MSN prefix always seemed like an odd tack-on for what would have theoretically been an MSZ suit. Not that the same didn't apply to the Methuss, but at least it went back to the standard MSA, rather than something specifically representing it as one designer's project.

Actually, that could partially explain the Delta project's relative failures. It seems to have been squarely placed as a standalone project on the shoulders of the UC Nagano, whereas the Zeta project has an entire Zeta Team, and MSA models are a product of Anaheim as a whole. No clue what the MSR in the Hyaku Shiki Kai is for though...

[domtropen]

Actually all other Methuss models have no feeble frame of original Methuss. Most Methuss incarnates in MS form look rather ungainly though, while Zetas in MS form seem to have good proportion.

[Random Zaku Pilot]

quick question what is a Hyaku Shiki a gundam type, grunt, or what i mean its paint job can be seen from the moon to axis i know its a exaggeration?

[Hyakushiki]

The Hyakushiki is a one off prototype built for high performance. Its gold coloring is due to its anti beam coating, even char joked about it being too
flashy.