The obsoletion of MS-manned gun emplacements

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False Prophet
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The obsoletion of MS-manned gun emplacements

Post by False Prophet » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:19 am

One little-mentioned piece of mechanics in U.C Gundam that I've always liked is the MS-manned Support Platforms - From the manuever-support like the Dodai and Flying Armor, to gun emplacements like the Burstliner, Skiure, and Mega Rider (which will be the focus of this thread.)

It also makes me want to ask this question though: Why did EFSF and Zeon stopped slapping huge guns on flying platforms? After the Mega Rider, the only support platforms remained were the Dodai, and they too seemed to moving toward obsolescence with the advent of the Anksha.

I'd say that technology had marched on in U.C., and what before seemed to be great firepower in a great gun could later be contained in a much smaller gun - Think of it like the different in size between the Hyper Mega Cannon of the FAZZ and the Hi-Nu HWS respectively.

Furthermore, MS combat had gotten faster and more manuever, and a gun platform simply couldn't do that. Even a MS in its Full Armor Configuration is both more manuever (standing on a gun platform means that the MS is largely restricted to moving in a horizontal plane) and presents a smaller hit profile.

So, what is your opinion of this matter?

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Re: The obsoletion of MS-manned gun emplacements

Post by JEFFPIATT » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:15 am

The gun platforms were more to provide heavy battleship like beam cannons to early UC MS mainly due to there own internal reactors being unable to power them so a platform base was needed to house the Guns reactor and to move the gun. the Mega Rider was more of an evolution of the Mega Bazooka Launcher where instead of requiring an MS to fly along to be a battery they built it in to a support craft.
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yazi88
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Re: The obsoletion of MS-manned gun emplacements

Post by yazi88 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:57 pm

In Hathaway's Flash novel and in SD Gundam games, the Gustav Karl and Messa mobile suits have their own special flying platforms that have built in beam cannons. But with the advent of smaller scale mobile suits that are a lot more manueverable along with having more flight capabilities and better fuel consumption due to smaller size/various advancements in tech in late UC (Victory Gundam era) such platforms are useless.

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Re: The obsoletion of MS-manned gun emplacements

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:55 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:19 am
One little-mentioned piece of mechanics in U.C Gundam that I've always liked is the MS-manned Support Platforms - From the manuever-support like the Dodai and Flying Armor, to gun emplacements like the Burstliner, Skiure, and Mega Rider (which will be the focus of this thread.)

It also makes me want to ask this question though: Why did EFSF and Zeon stopped slapping huge guns on flying platforms? After the Mega Rider, the only support platforms remained were the Dodai, and they too seemed to moving toward obsolescence with the advent of the Anksha.

I'd say that technology had marched on in U.C., and what before seemed to be great firepower in a great gun could later be contained in a much smaller gun - Think of it like the different in size between the Hyper Mega Cannon of the FAZZ and the Hi-Nu HWS respectively.

Furthermore, MS combat had gotten faster and more manuever, and a gun platform simply couldn't do that. Even a MS in its Full Armor Configuration is both more manuever (standing on a gun platform means that the MS is largely restricted to moving in a horizontal plane) and presents a smaller hit profile.

So, what is your opinion of this matter?
In UC, these are called SFS, Sub-Flight System.
They make little sense IRL, the Dodai's configuration is a nightmare to aerodynamics, the Corvette Boosters make slightly little more sense (in configuration only, the shape isn't)

Rationality aside, the explanation behind this change is simple.
For flight units are slowly phasing out mainly because of the TMS existence and the development of more powerful thrusters.
MS without flight capability(or in MS mode) can tag along on top of a flight mode TMS.
For Cannon units, the technology seems to have improved to a point where MS has generators powerful enough that can carry ship class cannons and swing them around.(At least cruiser class) So there is little point in making a suport unit that is huge.

Of course this also makes no sense because the same technology should be able to improve ship cannons as well, size and resource wise, the MS can never have more power than a ship of the same period.(You can just strap the MS on the ship as a cannon and remove all the other functions like legs.)

You can say that the power may not need to be any more powerful, but you can always increase the rate of fire with more generator output.

The reason for using MS is always for higher accuracy and a harder to hit unit. (The ships has too many systems running and the randomness of crew movement vibrates the ship more than the fixed pilot on the MS) The SFS cannon has the accuracy covered but the latter is not(without AMBAC capabilities) IRL you will have some kind of use for it like a artillery support(without the MS to control it, won't be necessary)

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Re: The obsoletion of MS-manned gun emplacements

Post by yazi88 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:29 am

In late UC (UC 120-150s), TMS are not a factor for Federation or League Militare unless the Victory Gundam. Z/ZZ/CCA/Unicorn/Hathaways's Flash sub flight systems are heavily used. But during the UC 120s and onward not anymore. Maybe on Earth during the 120s it might be the case because the Jegans are still in heavy use but with no actual conflict going on and the decline of the Federation's military no new ones are made, maybe older ones are still in use.

In latter UC, ship cannons for the most part are useless against mobile suits unless it a large beam cannon that can hit a long range like the special Zanscare ships. Mobility and beam shields of the smaller and faster mobile suits also make warship weapons less effective unless you can land a lucky shot in or maybe point blank range, but beam shields on ships are pretty effective for defense as well as the giant tires on Zanscare ships are effective.

I just remembered that the Einerads are also support platforms for Zanscare mobile suits, they have weapons and provide defense from front attacks and the mobile suits can use their beam shields for side attacks.

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Re: The obsoletion of MS-manned gun emplacements

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:16 am

yazi88 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:29 am
In late UC (UC 120-150s), TMS are not a factor for Federation or League Militare unless the Victory Gundam. Z/ZZ/CCA/Unicorn/Hathaways's Flash sub flight systems are heavily used. But during the UC 120s and onward not anymore. Maybe on Earth during the 120s it might be the case because the Jegans are still in heavy use but with no actual conflict going on and the decline of the Federation's military no new ones are made, maybe older ones are still in use.

In latter UC, ship cannons for the most part are useless against mobile suits unless it a large beam cannon that can hit a long range like the special Zanscare ships. Mobility and beam shields of the smaller and faster mobile suits also make warship weapons less effective unless you can land a lucky shot in or maybe point blank range, but beam shields on ships are pretty effective for defense as well as the giant tires on Zanscare ships are effective.

I just remembered that the Einerads are also support platforms for Zanscare mobile suits, they have weapons and provide defense from front attacks and the mobile suits can use their beam shields for side attacks.
Ah, I forgot to write the late UC mention.
Since most MS has their own flight capabilities, they don't really need SFS anymore.
For those that cannot fly, I guess the best answer will be that the EFF don't expect much fighting within the atmosphere.

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Re: The obsoletion of MS-manned gun emplacements

Post by Kuruni » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:22 am

Well, the Einrad and Twinrad are better than most of the older SFS. They have extra weapons and can fly, but they also have good defense too.
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Re: The obsoletion of MS-manned gun emplacements

Post by HalfDemonInuyasha » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:07 am

I recall some Crossbone Vanguard mobile suits in F91 were destroyed at long range by Ra Cailum-class main cannons. While beam shields may be able to block smaller beam cannon shots, the larger main mega particle cannons still seem to be able to easily overwhelm the beam shield and destroy the mobile suit at range.

And yeah, after ZZ Gundam, TMS seemed to quickly decline in use, most likely due to further advancements in MS technology making such systems unnecessary / impractical, with only really the Jupiter Empire and Zanscare Empire still using a few.
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