TV Tropes lists ZoE's Jehuty as a super prototype, even though it isn't

[yazi88]

But the GM II is barely much of a upgrade from the regular GM, only thing of significance outside of its generator upgrade is the 360 cockpit, and like the Hizack it was a placeholder until more stronger mass production units were made and a way to cheaply upgrade the aging MS in the Federation after the OYW.

[Kuruni]

I think that's the selling point of GM II. They can upgrade the old OYW-era GM to GM II at supposely cheap cost (and this carry on to GM II > GM III upgrading).

On funny note, while not mecha anime, the best examples of super prototype are various creation myth. Usually the first humans were created by some deity, or being deities themselves lossing their divine nature. As such, these humans are much stronger, tougher, and have much longer lifespan. The rest are born of good old fashion mating, and their quality deteriorate fast .

[MythSearcher]

But the GM II is barely much of a upgrade from the regular GM, only thing of significance outside of its generator upgrade is the 360 cockpit, and like the Hizack it was a placeholder until more stronger mass production units were made and a way to cheaply upgrade the aging MS in the Federation after the OYW.

At least the GM II has most of its spec(except armour material) raised higher than RX-78-2.
That is already a significant upgrade from the original GM.
It is just that the era saw a very fast development and thus making it seems to be not enough to catch up with the fast development.(In fact, GM III's numbering showed that it is already being developed before the Gryps War, where the GM II is seen by us, but already phasing out from battle)

[yazi88]

Funny enough is that the numbering of the GM series and its descendants is that they deployed a good number of years after their model number namesake. Jamesgun and Javelin especially. But interesting, in the manga adaptation of Climax U.C game that starts with OYW and ends with the conflict in F-91, the main character Tachibana is piloting a prototype Javelin during the Crossbone Vanguard attack on Frontier 4.

GM III is deployed and mass produced only 2 years after its model number, the fastest deployment of the GM series outside the original GM and its variations during the 1st Neo Zeon War and is still around in good numbers in Unicorn.

[Seto Kaiba]

I didn't say the prototype is the first to come out, I am saying you got all your time, budget and resources to do all the testing you want and the working and curb-stomping unit which you call a "prototype" is at its final stage of production and thus you are not working on multiple systems that are not tested.

Two issues with that, one of which I already sort of touched on.

The first is that - if you're in the final phase of development and the systems are fully tested - it's not a prototype anymore... it's a trial production or production verification unit.

The second is that that's not the scenario we're shown in most mecha shows. What we're most often shown is a technology demonstrator[1], initial prototype[2], or very early prototype[3] full of untested tech that's ultimately a surprise to enemies and allies alike and unstable enough or underdeveloped enough to cause a LOT of problems (that ultimately serve the plot purpose of preventing the unit from being overpowered).

In the military, the security measure isn't in the unit itself, but the surrounding facility, likely a full protected military base.

Quite a lot of prototypes are protected by things besides just the facility surrounding them. Functional locks in software, data bus and power cables being disconnected when the unit is not under test, removal of the unit's fuel when not under test, GPS and other tracking systems built into test equipment data loggers, the removal of key components for analysis when not under active testing, instrumented equipment that uses external processor resources for testing...

With most prototypes, a prospective thief would have a rather difficult, if not nigh-impossible, time just trying to get the prototype to start up.

You are talking about the larger organizations.
You are rather lucky that you didn't work with smaller ones in that case.

We're talking about defense industry prototyping here... when was the last time you saw a military vehicle that was developed and built by a mom and pop shop? Almost invariably, these super prototypes are made by megacorporations or with the backing of national or supranational governments.





[1] e.g. the Nirvash TypeZERO in Eureka Seven, the GP series in Stardust Memory, the Double Zeta Gundam in Gundam ZZ, the RX-0 in Gundam UC, the Hosioka Zaku in Developers: Mobile Suit Gundam before the One Year War, the Guren Mk.II, Z-01 Lancelot, and IFX-V3D1 Gawain in Code Geass etc.
[2] e.g. the RX-78-1, -2, and -3 in Mobile Suit Gundam, the RX-178 Gundam Mk.II in Zeta Gundam, the VF-X-4 in Macross, the Plan1056 Codarl in Full Metal Panic!, the Mirage D Knight of Gold in Five Star Stories, the Tallgeese in Gundam Wing, etc.
[3] e.g. the F90 Gundam in Silhouette Formula, the YF-19-2 and YF-21-2 in Macross Plus, the main character MS's in Gundam SEED, the YF-25 Prophecy and YF-27-5 Shahar in Macross R, the Dragonars in Metal Armor Dragonar, every other capable LFO in Eureka Seven, the XGP15A-II in Outlaw Star, the EVA-00, -01, and -02 in Neon Genesis Evangelion, etc.

[MythSearcher]

Two issues with that, one of which I already sort of touched on.

The first is that - if you're in the final phase of development and the systems are fully tested - it's not a prototype anymore... it's a trial production or production verification unit.

The second is that that's not the scenario we're shown in most mecha shows. What we're most often shown is a technology demonstrator[1], initial prototype[2], or very early prototype[3] full of untested tech that's ultimately a surprise to enemies and allies alike and unstable enough or underdeveloped enough to cause a LOT of problems (that ultimately serve the plot purpose of preventing the unit from being overpowered).

Not quite to that point yet.
The RX-78-2 Gundam for example, is only at the stage of testing whether it can move or not, and is still some way until production.
And it is not really that much from a complete scratch and just a combination of new technology never tested. What we see in the show isn't explained much, but the manuals told us much more.
The generators(forgot if it is 3 or 5 models of them), beam rifle, beam sabre, actuators, thrusters, etc. are all tested separately, the technologies are also tested on the Guncannon and Guntank.
(I am pretty sure even if you get a Zaku made with lunar titanium and ability to use the beam rifle will wreak pretty much the same havoc as the Gundam)

The Gundam in all sense is still just a unit after all systems being tested separately, and is now waiting to be tested assembled.

Of course IRL you will still have a lot of problems and malfunctions in such a system, it is not entirely implausible that with the advancement of technology, the design and simulation can eliminate enough of the errors so it can work at a certain level.

The Zeta as another example, already have at least 4 test/prototype units before the one you see.

The Gundam Mk-II is even shown in show that it is not the first test run, when AEUG tried to steal them, they have been tested for quite some time already.

An anime isn't a development log, you won't be shown a great deal of development history, that doesn't mean they don't exist.

From what I've seen and remember, at least the majority of UC Gundam anime along with their manuals, the main prototypes you see are at the final stage of 3 and moving towards 4(as in your earlier post) after the testing or supposed testing plan in the show. And reminding you that the technology at that point should really be enough so that a software can already implement new parts and technology to design a new MS that works.(as in MSV-R Return of Johnny Ridden shown)
The exception may be ZZ, Unicorn and V2, which the Unicorn is a prototype by name only(obviously not really developing a new production model) and the ZZ is just a part of a larger development project.

Quite a lot of prototypes are protected by things besides just the facility surrounding them. Functional locks in software, data bus and power cables being disconnected when the unit is not under test, removal of the unit's fuel when not under test, GPS and other tracking systems built into test equipment data loggers, the removal of key components for analysis when not under active testing, instrumented equipment that uses external processor resources for testing...

With most prototypes, a prospective thief would have a rather difficult, if not nigh-impossible, time just trying to get the prototype to start up.

Quite a lot of times when whatever is stolen, they are already started up on the runway waiting for its assigned pilot to use.
The Gundamjack scenario of Gato had the help of an AE mechanic, which all functional locks can be removed. (And the idiots in EFF removed the safety lock of the nuclear bazooka, that is the most unrealistic part)

If they can get through all those military personnel with plot armour, they can get through whatever functional locks you installed.

We're talking about defense industry prototyping here... when was the last time you saw a military vehicle that was developed and built by a mom and pop shop? Almost invariably, these super prototypes are made by megacorporations or with the backing of national or supranational governments.

Ok, sorry that I went too general.

Though remember most of these anime are still using WWI or at most II thinking and quite a lot of military vehicles are still developed or at least produced in a way like your good'o garage assembled plane, only with better technology implementation.(Developers' MS-04 prototype Zaku as an example)

[Seto Kaiba]

Not quite to that point yet.
The RX-78-2 Gundam for example, is only at the stage of testing whether it can move or not, and is still some way until production.

It's not my intention to be rude when I say this, but that is literally the exact opposite of what you said in your previous reply. Either they are the initial prototypes where none of the systems have been tested in full, or they are final phase prototypes/production verification units that are fully tested.

And it is not really that much from a complete scratch and just a combination of new technology never tested. What we see in the show isn't explained much, but the manuals told us much more.
The generators(forgot if it is 3 or 5 models of them), beam rifle, beam sabre, actuators, thrusters, etc. are all tested separately, the technologies are also tested on the Guncannon and Guntank. [...]

Please don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong on this one as it's been a good while since I last rewatched the original Mobile Suit Gundam series, but weren't the RX-75-4 Guntank and RX-77-2 Guncannon the SCV-70 White Base was carrying also new, untested prototypes like the RX-78-2 Gundam? That is not prior testing, that's parallel testing (which is not uncommon but adds an infuriating amount of complexity since you have to account for variables from multiple different testbeds on a common system). From the records available to me, both appear to be initial prototypes preceded by a single development mule.


Bench testing is part of the earliest phase of development, so that would be more in line with your above remark about these being initial phase prototypes in the previously-described developer's nightmare with systems that've never been tested together integrated into a scratch-built also-untested chassis.

Of course IRL you will still have a lot of problems and malfunctions in such a system, it is not entirely implausible that with the advancement of technology, the design and simulation can eliminate enough of the errors so it can work at a certain level.

Speaking as a guy who does this kind of thing for a living, testing on something like a Hardware in the Loop simulator (HiL) is a very limited form of testing that's only really good for evaluating the performance of a single system or subsystem at a time. Its usefulness decreases astonishingly fast if you have multiple new, untested systems in the simulation because the simulated inputs from the restbus simulator used to make the test article think it's hooked up to the full system depends on having an accurate picture of the whole system's behavior in order to provide correct/viable inputs to the test hardware.

Simulation test data would be of extremely limited use in a mostly-new platform like the Project V units, since they're mostly new hardware with very limited performance test data available. Without concrete performance measurements from those new parts in interaction with each other, any simulation tests are going to be based on little better than wild guesses.

The Zeta as another example, already have at least 4 test/prototype units before the one you see.

Looking at the development history of Project Zeta, I see only two: the MSN-001 Delta Gundam and MSZ-006-X Zeta Gundam prototype.

(Multiple prototype units build to the same spec only count as one level of prototype development. You could build a hundred cars to the same initial prototype spec and they are all collectively considered to be "Prototype 1".)

And reminding you that the technology at that point should really be enough so that a software can already implement new parts and technology to design a new MS that works.(as in MSV-R Return of Johnny Ridden shown)

"Should be" and "is" are two very different things. Gundam isn't Star Trek, after all... they don't have computer simulators like the holodeck that can allow parts or whole systems to be tested as if a physical test article had been scratch built for real world evaluation without having to lift a finger.

Though remember most of these anime are still using WWI or at most II thinking and quite a lot of military vehicles are still developed or at least produced in a way like your good'o garage assembled plane, only with better technology implementation.(Developers' MS-04 prototype Zaku as an example)

Quite honestly, the only show I can think of where that's true is Gundam Wing... where five berks with bad hair managed to build five Gundams with exotic materials without alerting a soul, but even then they'd had the backing of a massively wealthy and powerful private organization (the Barton Foundation, IIRC).

The MS-04 Prototype Zaku wasn't really developed in full at Hosioka. Zeonic just subcontracted out a test build and the calibration work based upon blueprints and specs they'd already developed on their own... it was a mostly-completed MS apart from the fact that nobody wanted to be the ones to test it with working Minovsky reactors for fear of the backlash. (Even then, Hosioka isn't exactly a mom and pop shop in your traditional sense... they're a metalworking outfit that specializes in parts prototyping and development of heavy machinery, and were only called upon to build that prototype.)

[yazi88]

Dougram is the only prototype Combat Armor in Fang of the Sun Dougram, but in the beginning the Liberation Army leader Dr. Samalin (who also designed the Dougram) said there were plans on mass producing it when they have more time and resources. The Liberation Army only had the Dougram in the beginning because it was the only unit they could afford to make and they only also had funding from a few Deloyer companies. It is also the only Combat Armor actually made and produced by the Liberation Army until the end of the show where the officially made Deloyer forces had their own production lines for Federation Combat Armors. All other Liberation Army combat armors were either stolen or came with defected native Deloyer soldiers from the Earth Federation.

All other Combat Armors were mass production models along with the custom Kochima Specials which was a suped up customized version of the Roundfacer. Dougram itself also uses a lot of similar parts as other combat armors and they all share components making it easier for maintenance and repairs. But that itself is also a problem for the Dougram as it uses some special parts that isn't repairable by using other Combat Armor's resources.

[MythSearcher]

It's not my intention to be rude when I say this, but that is literally the exact opposite of what you said in your previous reply. Either they are the initial prototypes where none of the systems have been tested in full, or they are final phase prototypes/production verification units that are fully tested.

I am saying the whole prototype phase is in the unrealistic ideal realm where you can do whatever you want until you get to the point of the production.(or at least the start of the show)

The units you built is already in a sense completed, parts have been tested at least separately, and it may even have a certain level of in door testing(like lifting its hand/legs) but yet to do a full testing.

That is why they can work to a certain point and be the super prototype we see in shows.

I am just saying it will be the ideal case where you can do this as an engineer, ans since it is the ideal case, it does not reflect too much of realism. Like I said, they only throw in the realism after this point.

Please don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong on this one as it's been a good while since I last rewatched the original Mobile Suit Gundam series, but weren't the RX-75-4 Guntank and RX-77-2 Guncannon the SCV-70 White Base was carrying also new, untested prototypes like the RX-78-2 Gundam? That is not prior testing, that's parallel testing (which is not uncommon but adds an infuriating amount of complexity since you have to account for variables from multiple different testbeds on a common system). From the records available to me, both appear to be initial prototypes preceded by a single development mule.


Bench testing is part of the earliest phase of development, so that would be more in line with your above remark about these being initial phase prototypes in the previously-described developer's nightmare with systems that've never been tested together integrated into a scratch-built also-untested chassis.

The Guntank and Guncannon was tested prior to this. They have yet to face combat, but none the less tested.
The Guntank is already at its 4th iteration while the Guncannon at its 2nd.

Other technologies/equipments have been tested separately as well.

Even the RX-78 was tested before hand, the RX-78-1.
They actually tested it before implementing the changes to the RX-78-2.
From MSV, without an image an only a text mention, you even have the small scale testing platform X-78 (About half the height of the real thing).(The manga for the X-78 has a lot of problem, like somehow being able to test the beam rifle despite its size, but the thing had problems even trying to stand up)

So you can kinda think of the RX-78-2 being the final phase of prototyping.

Ironically, the RX-78-1 is called the Prototype Gundam, that one might be the one that isn't really sticking to realism.(But since we never see it in action, it may well be malfunctioning a lot)

Yes, the development history is somehow contradictory in a few points, the G-1~G-3 sounded like they have been produced at the same time, with different designs. But they probably are just built around th same period, with each one being modified with the data of the last. (Which still have the problem of what is the stage of G-3 in Side 7) We can also see that they are not putting all the new technologies they have on the unit, with the magnetic coating implementing on the G-3 only after the G-2 proved to be working and with more testing(combat) data.

If the 1/144 Prototype Gundam model manual is anything to believe in, the plan is separated into 3 phases, "Early test type", "Mid term weaponized type" and "Late test type", the RX-78-1 being the early testing, and the RX-78-2, after tested all the regular motion stuff, is used for weapon testing(hence the long list of weapons) and the RX-78-3 is for final testing. The settings have since changed so that the mid term and late types are now moved to the G04~G08 though.

Speaking as a guy who does this kind of thing for a living, testing on something like a Hardware in the Loop simulator (HiL) is a very limited form of testing that's only really good for evaluating the performance of a single system or subsystem at a time. Its usefulness decreases astonishingly fast if you have multiple new, untested systems in the simulation because the simulated inputs from the restbus simulator used to make the test article think it's hooked up to the full system depends on having an accurate picture of the whole system's behavior in order to provide correct/viable inputs to the test hardware.

Simulation test data would be of extremely limited use in a mostly-new platform like the Project V units, since they're mostly new hardware with very limited performance test data available. Without concrete performance measurements from those new parts in interaction with each other, any simulation tests are going to be based on little better than wild guesses.

True, but the Project V units aren't really that new, as they tried to add as much development history as possible for selling more products IRL...

Looking at the development history of Project Zeta, I see only two: the MSN-001 Delta Gundam and MSZ-006-X Zeta Gundam prototype.

(Multiple prototype units build to the same spec only count as one level of prototype development. You could build a hundred cars to the same initial prototype spec and they are all collectively considered to be "Prototype 1".)

You also have the MSZ-006 Proto Zeta and Methuss(part of the Zeta Project for testing part of the technology).

Though I see the MSZ-006X1~3 somehow being a bit like RX-78-1~3, they are developed in the same period, with changes and modifications made one after another.

"Should be" and "is" are two very different things. Gundam isn't Star Trek, after all... they don't have computer simulators like the holodeck that can allow parts or whole systems to be tested as if a physical test article had been scratch built for real world evaluation without having to lift a finger.

Like I said, that is what the MSV-R story goes, so they have that ability in 0079.

Quite honestly, the only show I can think of where that's true is Gundam Wing... where five berks with bad hair managed to build five Gundams with exotic materials without alerting a soul, but even then they'd had the backing of a massively wealthy and powerful private organization (the Barton Foundation, IIRC).

Just saying their development sense is still in that era.
They have no sense of the complexity of technological advancement, and think that a small group(or worse, a single human) with a mostly isolated lab can develop a fully working, top of the line, military vehicle.

The MS-04 Prototype Zaku wasn't really developed in full at Hosioka. Zeonic just subcontracted out a test build and the calibration work based upon blueprints and specs they'd already developed on their own... it was a mostly-completed MS apart from the fact that nobody wanted to be the ones to test it with working Minovsky reactors for fear of the backlash. (Even then, Hosioka isn't exactly a mom and pop shop in your traditional sense... they're a metalworking outfit that specializes in parts prototyping and development of heavy machinery, and were only called upon to build that prototype.)

But at the same time, Hoshioka some how changed the design so significantly without documentation that Zeonic didn't even understand what happened to it. And they have a Geezer that can do nano(or is it femto?) level modification by hand more accurately than a machine. They are more of a mom and pop shop of the UC era than an actual heavy machinery development company. The most important technologies of a MS is developed by Hoshioka, Zeonic is just providing the frame and materials and a pretty useless design that almost seems to be completely (sans appearance) changed by Hoshioka.

Seriously, if Amuro can scratch build a Haro that works all the way till UC0153 and can help in piloting a MS in that era, something is wrong with the garage build kits' technology.

[Seto Kaiba]

I am saying the whole prototype phase is in the unrealistic ideal realm where you can do whatever you want until you get to the point of the production.(or at least the start of the show)

Like I keep saying, that's as far from ideal as it's possible to get without hiring someone to periodically poke the dev team in the eye with the stem of a broken cocktail glass.

The Guntank and Guncannon was tested prior to this. They have yet to face combat, but none the less tested.
The Guntank is already at its 4th iteration while the Guncannon at its 2nd.

The problem with that statement is that the numbering of the prototypes is not a reliable indicator of an actual difference in specs or a progression in testing in the Universal Century timeline. (Nor, does it give any indication as to the actual prototype revision level, if the upgrade history in Master Archive Mobile Suit: RX-78 Gundam is any indication.) All the designation actually tells us is the RX-75-4 was the 4th prototype RX-75 built.

For example, there were minute hardware differences between the RX-78-1 and RX-78-2, but the RX-78-3, RX-78-4, and RX-78-5 were all (initially) built to the same spec as the RX-78-2. When upgrades were done for the RX-78-3, the RX-78-2 was quickly updated to the same standard. (This is a case of "reality ensues" for prototyping.) Master Archive suggests this was true for RX-78-1 as well, and that when RX-78-2 was completed it was virtually identical to the RX-78-1's current spec.

So you can kinda think of the RX-78-2 being the final phase of prototyping.

But it wasn't... not by a longshot.

Ironically, the RX-78-1 is called the Prototype Gundam, that one might be the one that isn't really sticking to realism.(But since we never see it in action, it may well be malfunctioning a lot)

Dunno 'bout "never"... the Gundam: the Origin version does appear in live fire testing.

True, but the Project V units aren't really that new, as they tried to add as much development history as possible for selling more products IRL...

Which is one reason it's a fantastic example of what I'm talking about, it has far and away the most developed backstory...

You also have the MSZ-006 Proto Zeta and Methuss(part of the Zeta Project for testing part of the technology).

The MSZ-006-X numbers ARE the Prototype Zeta Gundam... though all three units (MSZ-006-X1 thru -X3) were built at the same time and to the same hardware specification but for some cosmetic differences.

Like I said, that is what the MSV-R story goes, so they have that ability in 0079.

If so, that runs counter to a bunch of other stories like Developers in which physical prototyping is presented as absolutely essential because the integrated system of a mobile suit is too complex to reliably be modeled entirely in a computer.

But at the same time, Hoshioka some how changed the design so significantly without documentation that Zeonic didn't even understand what happened to it.

Nah, Hoshioka didn't modify the design itself... they had different calibrations for many of the moving parts and had completely resampled the motion management software's database. That's why Zeonic couldn't get its prototypes to operate like Hoshioka's... the calibrations hadn't been documented properly, and they still had the stock motion management database. Zeonic was trying to run a production verification level MS on proto-1 cals, so small wonder it handled like a cow in a supermarket trolley until Hoshioka coughed up their data. (If I loaded proto-1 cals into your car's engine and transmission, I guarantee you'd be taking it to your mechanic to ask if someone'd put your engine in backwards compared to how you were used to it handling.)

The most important technologies of a MS is developed by Hoshioka, Zeonic is just providing the frame and materials and a pretty useless design that almost seems to be completely (sans appearance) changed by Hoshioka.

The most important tuning, calibration, and software was developed by Hoshioka... the hardware was all Zeonic's.

Seriously, if Amuro can scratch build a Haro that works all the way till UC0153 and can help in piloting a MS in that era, something is wrong with the garage build kits' technology.

Amuro didn't scratch-build that Haro... it was a commercially-available toy robot for children that came out in UC 0078, which he modified. He was later responsible for several generations of upgraded Haro toys that were mass-produced due to the fame of the White Base crew and were an extremely popular toy.

Uso's Haro is not Amuro's, it's a replica his father created with modern technology from ~UC 0153.

[JEFFPIATT]

Click here and scroll down to "Super Prototype" to see Jehuty as among them.

Click here, click on the video game section, and scroll down to Zone of the Enders to see Jehuty listed as among the super prototypes.

Both EarlOfSandvich and DarkHunter -- two members of TV Tropes -- declared that Jehuty is a Super Prototype, even though neither MAHQ nor the Zone of the Enders wiki listed the orbital frame as a prototype. Why would anyone consider Jehuty a prototype, when it's clearly just a one-off model?

I would like to mention that TV-tropes is an Wiki anyone can edit the pages there and is not an fully vetted source for info as any one with a internet connection can change it's contents.

[Kuruni]

Well, it's same as ZoE Wiki. The most baffling thing I found there was how they used to claim that Raptor is named after Velociraptor...

[Seto Kaiba]

I would like to mention that TV-tropes is an Wiki anyone can edit the pages there and is not an fully vetted source for info as any one with a internet connection can change it's contents.

The moral of the story being "This is why teachers tell students not to cite Wikipedia as a source."

[Kuruni]

The funny part is that if the student does bad job, the teacher will tell them to look up Wikipedia XD . But of course, the proper way is to look up what it's citing.

[SonicSP]

The funny part is that if the student does bad job, the teacher will tell them to look up Wikipedia XD . But of course, the proper way is to look up what it's citing.

That's basically what I do aside from Googling, unless I'm required to cite a peer reviewed paper or something. In which case, I'll have to use a paid database or Google Scholar.

[Dark Duel]

Ditto. I sometimes sorta cheated when I was writing papers for school in that if I found useful information, I would check for a citation in the Wikipedia article. If there was one and the source was listed and appeared credible, I simply cited the same source.
But most of the time I used Wikipedia to establish a baseline for the information I wanted, and then went to Google to find a corroborating, credible source.