The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

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False Prophet
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The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by False Prophet » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:22 am

Do we have any inkling about when did the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Gallus started development? Was it before or after Axis departed toward Earth during the Gryps War?

I mean, have it ever occured to you guys why did these machines were developed, while before the Axis Zeon had been focusing almost exclusively on space-use MS like the Gaza? Could these machines represented a shift in the Axis Zeon goals? - they did not intend to invade Earth in the first place, but only thought about doing so after seeing the power vaccum left by the Titans?

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Re: The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by Chris » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:34 am

The conventional wisdom, at least among Western fans, is that Axis had all these ZZ suits underdevelopment during the Gryps War and kept their cards closely held by only deploying the Gaza-C. Given that the First Neo Zeon War starts right after the Gryps War, that kind of bears out- these suits couldn't all have been designed overnight, even with Gundam's completely unrealistic mobile suit development/deployment timelines. Even though Axis/Neo Zeon was initially focused on space, I can't imagine that someone as power hungry as Haman didn't have eventual plans for Earth, and thus some ground mobile suits were designed to that end.
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Re: The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:42 am

the Capule and the Dreissen had the advantage of being just updated versions of older Zeon models the MSM-03C Hygogg and the MS-09R-2 Rick Dom II respectively. the AMX-101 Galluss-J takes some of it's design from the MS-07 Gouf most of Neo-zeon's early ms works were updated units from Zeon's older models taking the old combat data as a starting off point. Even the Gaza-C was an old labor type MS retooled in to a Combat model.

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Re: The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:54 pm

First things first:

AOZ Reboot finally provides and official design for the obscure AMX-001 Gaza A:

http://hobby.dengeki.com/aoz/illust/reboot12/

The AMX-003 Gaza C had be redesigned, though the AMX-003M Gaza M do seems to have kept more common traits with it.

Other Axis/Neo Zeon MS that were likely available early include the AMX-006 Gaza D, AMX-007 Gaza E and MS-14J ReGelg. At least 4 Gaza D were already on board the Endra (in a dissembled state) when it arrived at Shan Gri La, indicating that it was past the prototype stage unlike other units. A Gaza E was seen in the Zeta Trilogy on board the Gwadan. Lastly, the ReGelg is basically an upgraded Gelgoog. My pet theory is that it partly served as a test machine for the Qubeley given its large shoulder thrusters. Either way, we know that Mashymre piloted one at some point, and Gihren's Greed suggests that Character soon might have piloted one too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N7JfuqSamM

A more odd case is the AMX-117L Gaz-L and AMX-117R Gaz-R: these machines are supposedly based on the obscure MS-17B Galbaldy Beta, which is suspected to have been externally identical to the RMS-117 used by the EF. ZZ Gundam Frag has at least two clips showing the MSZ-010 Gundam ZZ engaging a few Galbaldy Betas, so perhaps these are some examples of proper MS-17B units. Anyway, the important part is that the Gaz-L and Gaz-R supposedly served as the escorts for Haman's Qubeley, before they were reassigned to look after Chara Soon after there reconditioning, now serving as the escorts for her Geymalk. As such, we can presume that they could have been around ever since the Gryps conflict, when Haman last used her Qubeley before the final battle at Core 3 during ZZ.

A few more notable cases:

The AMX-009 Dreissen and AMX-011 Zaku III supposedly started development after other units, but were completed faster since they were based on the existing MS-06 and MS-09 series. While the AMX-011 Zaku III doesn't make its debut until late in the series (at Dublin colony drop), we do spot a couple making a cameo during Minerva's parade at Dakar, confirming hat they were ready much earlier.

The AMX-101 Gallus J and AMX-102 Zssa were mass production models supposedly developed in tandem, mean to work as a team for operations on Earth. Both were in prototype stage during the Endra's stay at Shan Gri La.

The AMX-103 Hamma Hamma and AMX-104 R-Jarja were supposed to be limited production, customized knight type MS. Considering that the Hamma Hamma seems to sue a more crude quasi-psycommu system developed by Axis, and lacking the input form the Gundam Mk V's income system, it's possible it had been in development much longer. Its all range remote weapon system seems more likely based on the AMX-002 Neue Ziel's half-control system.

The AMX-107 Bawoo is supposedly another custom knight-type MS, but unlike the aforementioned units, it's design was approved for mass production, which took a while to actually happen and the first few mass production units appear before the Dublin colony drop, serving as escorts for the in-transit Psycho Gundam Mk II.

The AMX-109 Capule is hard guess, but it seems to be already available as soon as Neo Zeon forces arrived on Earth, most likely as part of one of the two detachments that descend ahead of Haman's fleet: the Rein Dragun team and Louis Bazaar team. If you take Mirage of Zeon in consideration, whose main character pilots a golden AMX-109 Capule in space. Supposedly this character, Fanton laav Algis, is carrying out the same mission as Mashymre, Character Soon and Rakan Dakaran: head to different colonies to gather supporters for the Axis/Neo Zoen cause. Anyway, in such case we could assume that the Capule underwent testing around the same time as the other Neo Zeon MS (Gallus J, Zssa, Dreissen, etc.). For reference, Rakan Dakaran is said to have tested a prototype Dreissen during his assignment.

The AMX-014 Doven Wolf and AMX-015 Geymalk were among the last MS Axis/1st Neo Zeon developed. They were based on the ORX-013 Gundam Mk V and MRX-010 Psycho Gundam Mk II. The later was recovered by Axis at the end of the Gryps war and before the Dublin colony drop not only had it been fully restored, but it would seem that Axis/Neo Zeon were already done studying it, thus sending it back to the frontlines.

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Re: The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:23 am

AMX-107 Bawoo I remember reading where was built using stolen ZZ Gundam project data brought over by defecting AE techs to Axis. The bulk of the Axis MS lines are either updated versions of older Zeon units built with modern tech or reuse tech concepts from AEUG or Titans MS data. Ironically this makes the AMX-107 Bawoo the first mass produced unit from the Zeta project to see any widespread use as the RGZ line used by the EFSF only ever got to limited production. the AMX-107 being mor of an MP version of the prototype ZZ gundam with a body looking more like the Zeta gundam.

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Re: The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by E08 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:46 am

JEFFPIATT wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:23 am
AMX-107 Bawoo I remember reading where was built using stolen ZZ Gundam project data brought over by defecting AE techs to Axis. The bulk of the Axis MS lines are either updated versions of older Zeon units built with modern tech or reuse tech concepts from AEUG or Titans MS data. Ironically this makes the AMX-107 Bawoo the first mass produced unit from the Zeta project to see any widespread use as the RGZ line used by the EFSF only ever got to limited production. the AMX-107 being mor of an MP version of the prototype ZZ gundam with a body looking more like the Zeta gundam.
Not sure where you got those information from, but the manuals of the RE 1/100 kit and the HGUC 1/144 only noted that Bawoo is based on the Zeta Project series MS. The HGUC manuals further noted that the stolen Z project data include design and technology. No mention of how Axis/Neo Zeon acquired the stolen data. Also, the only mention of ZZ Gundam in the HGUC manual is that Bawoo is similar to it in terms of its transformation/separation concept.

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Re: The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:05 am

E08 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:46 am
JEFFPIATT wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:23 am
AMX-107 Bawoo I remember reading where was built using stolen ZZ Gundam project data brought over by defecting AE techs to Axis. The bulk of the Axis MS lines are either updated versions of older Zeon units built with modern tech or reuse tech concepts from AEUG or Titans MS data. Ironically this makes the AMX-107 Bawoo the first mass produced unit from the Zeta project to see any widespread use as the RGZ line used by the EFSF only ever got to limited production. the AMX-107 being mor of an MP version of the prototype ZZ gundam with a body looking more like the Zeta gundam.
Not sure where you got those information from, but the manuals of the RE 1/100 kit and the HGUC 1/144 only noted that Bawoo is based on the Zeta Project series MS. The HGUC manuals further noted that the stolen Z project data include design and technology. No mention of how Axis/Neo Zeon acquired the stolen data. Also, the only mention of ZZ Gundam in the HGUC manual is that Bawoo is similar to it in terms of its transformation/separation concept.
the HG UC kit manual
viewtopic.php?p=250529&sid=dc0cdb807dc2 ... 33#p250529
The Bawoo was developed to examine new possibilities for the TMS (transformable mobile suit). Although Axis had already introduced the Gaza series into combat, it had fallen behind in developing machines that could resist the transformable mobile suits of the Federation Forces, AEUG, and Titans. In U.C. 0088, which could be considered the golden age of the transformable mobile suit, the transformable mobile suits of each side were demonstrating their full effectiveness. The Axis engineers, feeling they couldn't afford to fall behind in mobile suit development, eagerly attacked the matter of transformable mobile suits as well.

Meanwhile, thanks to political strategems, many machines and technologies were obtained from the Federation Forces and the Titans. In particular, it is said that a considerable number of staff who "participated in" or "returned to" Neo Zeon came from AE (Anaheim Electronics) and the AEUG, where many elements approved of Axis's return to the Earth Sphere and the revival of Zeon. In fact, the Bawoo itself could even be called a dead copy (based on stolen designs and technology) of the Zeta Gundam, or possibly another machine from the Zeta Project, that was created as a result of these kinds of situations.

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Re: The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by E08 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:08 am

Ah I see, guess I gloss over those parts too much.

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Re: The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:16 am

The Capule didn't get it's old Zeon ms base model until 0080 came out and added one one to the late OYW era. With the MSM-03C Hygogg a revised version of the MSM-03 Gogg. AMX-101 Galluss-J barrows concepts from the MS-07 Gouf so Axis wasn't starting from scrach they took old MS models from Zeon and the EFSF/Titans as bases with some units being based on AEUG units.

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Re: The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:23 pm

I recall that Mark once pointed out that the Bawoo was the only 1st Neo Zeon MS that seemed to follow the EF's design doctrine, and was equipped with as standard beam rifle and handheld shield. It's worth pointing out that the only other MS to use that shield is none other than the AMX-018 Todesritter, which was built from a damaged EF RX-80 Pale Rider.

The mention about Haman's Neo Zeon getting support from the EF, Titans and/or AE isn't surprising: at the end of the Gryps War they were basically the faction with largest military power available. Let's remember that AE even donated the successor to the Rick Dias, the Schuzrum Dias, to Zeon (whether to Axis or directly to the Republic of Zeon is not very clear) instead of providing it to the AEUG. The ORX-013 Gundam Mk V that provided the basis for the Doven Wolf was also provided by a Murasame Lab researcher who defected.

I wouldn't really consider the Gallus J to be based on the Gouf: aside from the finger vulcan gun, which aside form concept differs greatly in design, the Gallus seems to have been built with modularity in mind, which allowed variants such as the Gallus Cannon, Schuzrum Gallus and Gallus S to be produced. It's unusually high output generator for a mass produced model (at the time second only to the Doven Wolf's), seems to confirm that it was designed to be able to take different roles, including ones that would have a higher generator output demand (the Gallus Cannon's should beam cannon for instance). An obscure fact about this MS is that it's so called "energy gun" was originally meant to be a beam magnum, according to an old lineart, with that which we now consider as missile launchers (those for openings in the weapon in question), meant to be the expendable e-pacs for each shot. I would be more inclined to consider it based on the Zaku or Gelgoog series given its adaptability.

I really don't like the idea about the Gogg-HyGogg-Capule development line. Not only the HyGogg has little in common with the Gogg (Mark mentioned that the former was originally designated as the MSM-05/B and was going to be called Gock or something like that), but MSV-R recently provided us with a MS that could be considered a proper successor to the Gogg, the MSM-06 Jurick. Most importantly, the Capule seems more likely directly based on the Gogg, since it ignores the most important lesson later amphibious MS learned: relocate weapons to the hands/claws in other to aim easier and faster. That's one feature that the HyGogg and Jurick both have, but which the Gogg and Capule both lack, and which the Kapool from Turn A Gundam addressed. I should point out that aside from that, the AMX-109 does seem to be quite a good amphibious MS, capable of high mobility movement both underwater and on the surface, and its weapons actually seems to have been designed/placed with its MA form in mind. But just like the Gogg, and unlike the HyGogg, it's lacking when the battle shifts to land.

As an extra note, AoZ Reboot recently added a few more Axis/Neo Zeon amphibious MS: the AMX-003 Gaza M (shown in the first link of my previous post) and the AMX-008M GaZowmn Marine Type. Unlike the Capule, the later does seem to be more directly based on the HyGogg:

http://hobby.dengeki.com/aoz/illust/reboot08/

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Re: The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:46 am

It dos't help that the HyGogg was desgined in the production time line until after CCA was produced and it wasent there to be based on when the Axis units were being drawn up. so we have an unit that untill 0080 came out would have been based just on the Gogg with an added unit between the two adding some touches of the axis unit mainly the extending arms.

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Re: The date when the Zsaa, the Dreissen, the Capule, and the Galluss first started development?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:25 am

The extending arms existed ever since the original de it of the Gogg and Acguy: the former could retract its arms for its diving/swimming mode, best depicted in Robot Damashii’s new A.N.I.M.E. figure. In the case of the later, remember those scenes where Acguys extended their arms for attaching themselves to the ceiling of the underground Jaburo caves.

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