How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

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How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by False Prophet » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:54 am

More specifically, how long does it take between a Newtype giving an order and the Funnels operates accordingly? I mean, it is said that INCOMs are always slower than Funnels, as the machine takes time to translate the brainwave into electrical signal, and then transfer it by wire to the INCOMs. And from the performance of Doven Wolf and the Krake Zulu, I think we can say with confidence that it takes less than five seconds between the orders are given and the INCOMs obey.

Is it because of the translation (in the end, whether is it Funnel or INCOM, the brainwaves must be translated into codes, right?), or the mean of data transferring (Minovsky particle boosts brainwaves signals)?

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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:22 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:54 am
Is it because of the translation (in the end, whether is it Funnel or INCOM, the brainwaves must be translated into codes, right?), or the mean of data transferring (Minovsky particle boosts brainwaves signals)?
As far as I am aware (which is rather less far than you could spit a rat), the difference in performance between the classic psycommu-controlled bits and funnels and the quasi-psycommu-controlled INCOMs is not in the transmission between the controller and remote weapon... it's a difference in brainwave amplitude (not frequency) between an ordinary human and a newtype.

At the end of the day, regardless of whether the brainwaves are being amplified and transmitted wirelessly for the receiver to interpret or are being converted and transmitted using a shielded cable, it's still going to be effectively lightspeed electromagnetic communication. That means the limiting factor has to be either in the detection of an actionable instruction or the speed at which it is converted into usable machine language. The few notes that I've found on the difference between psycommu and quasi-psycommu suggest that it's the former. Newtypes appear to have a higher-amplitude brainwave that facilitates their psychic communication abilities, that would be somewhat easier to discriminate from the background life functions of the human brain... and thus it would be easier for the psycommu to identify actionable instructions to transmit to the remote unit. The "oldtype" human brainwaves are apparently lower amplitude, making the quasi-psycommu work harder to identify actionable instructions among all the background activity of the brain.

That's my interpretation of what I've gotten from the handful of publications at my disposal.
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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by krullnar » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:40 pm

I'd go with it is a matter of power consider the human brain to be battery. Well a newtypes battery is more power thus stronger signal faster control. Though to be fair this is pretty much an ass pull. As the finer details of newtype systems and quasi-newtype systems exist in canon as little more than plot devices and muguffins so meh.
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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by Kuruni » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:50 pm

Hehehe...this discussion remind me of how Captain America can "see faster" than normal human XD .
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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:42 am

A NT and a normal human is mainly on the Psycommu waves they sent out and receive by Minovsky particles.
A normal human(OT) does not give out Psycommu waves, so they cannot control Psycommu weapons like Bits and Funnels at all because they make use of this wave.
Incoms used direct machine signal and no Psycommu waves, they don't even need to have "a weaker" brain wave.(of course, in theory they can still use lesser NTs, and obviously they have some wired Psycommu weapons like the Zeong as well)

The Psycommu wave's speed isn't specified in anywhere.
But since Minovsky particles cannot move faster than light, the wave the propagates within it can't.
However, at least Ecole du Ciel implied that NT's can have a negative reaction time due to the information they receive from these waves because they can feel before they can see(obstructed view), so there are certain times where NTs can control Psycommu weapons faster than OT to Incoms.
(Like when you need to attack a target behind an obstacle, NTs can feel and attack it directly but OT has to wait for it to move into view.

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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by Dark Duel » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:31 am

Speaking of which, was there ever an in-universe established reason for why the remote weapons of OYW-era Newtype-use machines such as the Braw Bro and Zeong were wire-guided rather than controlled wirelessly via the psycommu system like the Elmeth's Bits or the Funnels of the Qubeley and subsequent units?

Personally I'd assumed one of two possible reasons:
1. The technology is not yet fully mature, either in terms of the guidance systems(unlikely given the concurrent Elmeth) or power supply(in which case the wires not only serve to guide them but also to connect them to the main unit's powerplant)
2. The wires are there as a redundant backup/safety measure to facilitate guidance/retrieval, but not actually necessary(similarly to the CE's Dreadnought Gundam, whose DRAGOONs are wired to the backpack, but which are fully capable of operating wirelessly)
Mind you I'm going off memory here and haven't seen the series in uears, nor really read much into it yet. Just thought I would ask.
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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:42 pm

Dark Duel wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:31 am
Speaking of which, was there ever an in-universe established reason for why the remote weapons of OYW-era Newtype-use machines such as the Braw Bro and Zeong were wire-guided rather than controlled wirelessly via the psycommu system like the Elmeth's Bits or the Funnels of the Qubeley and subsequent units?

Personally I'd assumed one of two possible reasons:
1. The technology is not yet fully mature, either in terms of the guidance systems(unlikely given the concurrent Elmeth) or power supply(in which case the wires not only serve to guide them but also to connect them to the main unit's powerplant)
2. The wires are there as a redundant backup/safety measure to facilitate guidance/retrieval, but not actually necessary(similarly to the CE's Dreadnought Gundam, whose DRAGOONs are wired to the backpack, but which are fully capable of operating wirelessly)
Mind you I'm going off memory here and haven't seen the series in uears, nor really read much into it yet. Just thought I would ask.
I'd rather have it wired so I can just pull in the wire when I needed it back and focus on the battlefield than to mind control it all the way, whether the technology is matured or not.

The in-universe reason for Braw Bro is that it can also be used by OT pilots, so it is wired in case they really need to use OTs. Same reason for Zeong, that is also the reason why it has 2 cockpits.(So one pilot can focus on using the remote weapons)

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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by v_zubko » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:20 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:42 pm
The in-universe reason for Braw Bro is that it can also be used by OT pilots, so it is wired in case they really need to use OTs. Same reason for Zeong, that is also the reason why it has 2 cockpits.(So one pilot can focus on using the remote weapons)
Not that I have the book handy to verify, but I though that in the novels Amuro could "see" the link between the Elmeth and its bits but had a much harder time with the wired Braw Bro because he could not sense its remote weapons. Then again, I do not know if this is backed up by any other material.
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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:09 am

v_zubko wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:20 am

Not that I have the book handy to verify, but I though that in the novels Amuro could "see" the link between the Elmeth and its bits but had a much harder time with the wired Braw Bro because he could not sense its remote weapons. Then again, I do not know if this is backed up by any other material.
Well, I just used Gundam Encyclopaedia Ver. 1.5 as a quick check, what you said here sounds reasonable as well.
Since the NT technology is pretty new in OYW, this might not be intentional but only happened to be so.

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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by Dark Duel » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:06 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:42 pm
The in-universe reason for Braw Bro is that it can also be used by OT pilots, so it is wired in case they really need to use OTs. Same reason for Zeong, that is also the reason why it has 2 cockpits.(So one pilot can focus on using the remote weapons)
Really? I did not know that. Thanks.
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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by Phonix_1 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:40 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:42 pm
I'd rather have it wired so I can just pull in the wire when I needed it back and focus on the battlefield than to mind control it all the way, whether the technology is matured or not.

The in-universe reason for Braw Bro is that it can also be used by OT pilots, so it is wired in case they really need to use OTs. Same reason for Zeong, that is also the reason why it has 2 cockpits.(So one pilot can focus on using the remote weapons)
Would the wire hinder the action of MS/MA in some very "dense" space, like debris field?

Furthermore, while wired bits can get the power, signal and even propellant from the wire, they can't distract enemies in the way like wireless funnels.
Wired bits can ambush enemies from the cover of asteroids or wreckage and corner-shot, but they can't use the typical tactics of funnels: surrounding target and raining down the beams on it.

I know it is not easy for the funnel get close and surround the target, the Vulcans on head should be able to intercept them with little difficulty. However, Vulcan or any kind of MS-based CIWS rarely shoot them down...
If funnels begin firing from long range, not just surround-and-fire, the enemies would be forced to intercept the incoming funnels, leaving them easier for "main MS/MA" to attack.

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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:52 am

Phonix_1 wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:40 pm

Would the wire hinder the action of MS/MA in some very "dense" space, like debris field?

Furthermore, while wired bits can get the power, signal and even propellant from the wire, they can't distract enemies in the way like wireless funnels.
Wired bits can ambush enemies from the cover of asteroids or wreckage and corner-shot, but they can't use the typical tactics of funnels: surrounding target and raining down the beams on it.

I know it is not easy for the funnel get close and surround the target, the Vulcans on head should be able to intercept them with little difficulty. However, Vulcan or any kind of MS-based CIWS rarely shoot them down...
If funnels begin firing from long range, not just surround-and-fire, the enemies would be forced to intercept the incoming funnels, leaving them easier for "main MS/MA" to attack.
Don't be misled by fiction, Space is huge, and there is hardly "very dense" space. Debris field spread out pretty fast, and larger lumps actually will clear out the smaller ones. (closer ones will be attracted by gravity and electro-magnetic force, further ones are likely not at very low relative velocity to the large ones and bump into them)
Just draw a random line from Earth to the outside of the Solar System, the chance of your line hitting anything is much much closer to 0 than 0.0001 by orders of magnitude.

And I have trouble understanding why wired ones cannot be used as all range attack. In reality, you really cannot see the wire that thin from a certain distance away. They are just connected, and only have a slight drag from the wire because of inertia of the wire, but apart from that, they are pretty much the same as unwired models. The range isn't really a big problem as well, a micro-satellite of about 45cmX45cmX45cm can already house well over 20km of tether in it. You can likely house over 1000km of wire in a MS for 8 bits without it being a major load of it.(granted at that length, propellant transmission will not be effective)

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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by Kuruni » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:39 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:52 am
Don't be misled by fiction, Space is huge, and there is hardly "very dense" space. Debris field spread out pretty fast, and larger lumps actually will clear out the smaller ones.
Sadly we're talking about fiction here, don't be misled by reality. We can see a very dense debris zone in Thunderbolt, so it exist in Gundam, officially.

And even in reality, people start to concern about all space junk in Earth's orbit.
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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:50 am

Kuruni wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:39 am
MythSearcher wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:52 am
Don't be misled by fiction, Space is huge, and there is hardly "very dense" space. Debris field spread out pretty fast, and larger lumps actually will clear out the smaller ones.
Sadly we're talking about fiction here, don't be misled by reality. We can see a very dense debris zone in Thunderbolt, so it exist in Gundam, officially.

And even in reality, people start to concern about all space junk in Earth's orbit.
Thunderbolt is non-canon.

Canon UC denses space is maybe where Delaz fleet hid in. Still pretty clear and without high relative velocity items.

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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by Kuruni » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:12 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:50 am
Thunderbolt is non-canon.
Source? We've gone through this canon crap so many times, and ultimately we still hold on single statement - if it's animate works then it's official.
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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by ChaoticSheep1 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:00 am

<.<

"even if that meant it wasn't part of the Gundam canon," Direct Quote from the Director.

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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by E08 » Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:08 am

ChaoticSheep1 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:00 am
<.<

"even if that meant it wasn't part of the Gundam canon," Direct Quote from the Director.
Here is the full sentence where the quote originated: "I told them that I wanted to be able to work freely, even if that meant it wasn’t part of the Gundam canon, and they told me I could do what I want." Courtesy of Gelgoog Jager in this thread.

Looking at the sentence in whole, IMO, it doesn't really say anything about whether Thunderbolt is canon or not. It simply says the author of Thunderbolt was given free rein to do whatever he wanted and do not have to be bothered about whether it fits the canon or not.

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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:10 am

Kuruni wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:12 am
Source? We've gone through this canon crap so many times, and ultimately we still hold on single statement - if it's animate works then it's official.
That statement is not even from an official source.
E08 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:08 am
ChaoticSheep1 wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:00 am
<.<

"even if that meant it wasn't part of the Gundam canon," Direct Quote from the Director.
Here is the full sentence where the quote originated: "I told them that I wanted to be able to work freely, even if that meant it wasn’t part of the Gundam canon, and they told me I could do what I want." Courtesy of Gelgoog Jager in this thread.

Looking at the sentence in whole, IMO, it doesn't really say anything about whether Thunderbolt is canon or not. It simply says the author of Thunderbolt was given free rein to do whatever he wanted and do not have to be bothered about whether it fits the canon or not.
And the original manga of thunderbolt is a mess.
Just like Origin, it was not meant to be canon from the beginning, that is why the directors of these shows can do whatever they want.

And I don't see why it is a concern of the flexible wire and not the bit/funnel itself if you are to use them in a dense area.

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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by Kuruni » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:45 am

Do you even read what you quote? It say he's allowed to do whatever he want without concern about canon, not that it isn't canon (I myself suspect that the original text is likely use continuity instead of canon, but whatever).
MythSearcher wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:10 am
Kuruni wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:12 am
Source? We've gone through this canon crap so many times, and ultimately we still hold on single statement - if it's animate works then it's official.
That statement is not even from an official source.
Well, the full discussion is in this thread.
MythSearcher wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:10 am
And I don't see why it is a concern of the flexible wire and not the bit/funnel itself if you are to use them in a dense area.
Beat me, but we're on thread asking "How fast can thought travel?" which is something I think it's better to ask a Jedi.
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Re: How fast can the Newtype brainwave be?

Post by BrentD15 » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:19 am

Dark Duel wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:31 am
Speaking of which, was there ever an in-universe established reason for why the remote weapons of OYW-era Newtype-use machines such as the Braw Bro and Zeong were wire-guided rather than controlled wirelessly via the psycommu system like the Elmeth's Bits or the Funnels of the Qubeley and subsequent units?

Personally I'd assumed one of two possible reasons:
1. The technology is not yet fully mature, either in terms of the guidance systems(unlikely given the concurrent Elmeth) or power supply(in which case the wires not only serve to guide them but also to connect them to the main unit's powerplant)
2. The wires are there as a redundant backup/safety measure to facilitate guidance/retrieval, but not actually necessary(similarly to the CE's Dreadnought Gundam, whose DRAGOONs are wired to the backpack, but which are fully capable of operating wirelessly)
Mind you I'm going off memory here and haven't seen the series in uears, nor really read much into it yet. Just thought I would ask.
I assume it could be used either way, considering the Elmeth's bits were stated to have their own power generators.
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