Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

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MythSearcher
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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Sep 09, 2017 1:28 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:22 am
How expensive a learning computer can be? I mean, if you look at this day and age, even undergraduates are building AI capable of deep learning. Not to mention that it is very likely for the pilots to control a MS, they would need an advanced A.I system to handle a lot of the work.
The learning computer is not a normal computer, they have other computers for MS control, but the learning computer is a computer that takes in all the motion and calculates the most efficient(i.e. best) method of executing it.

Of course there is also the problem of technology advancing and thus people in the 70's don't know computers learning isn't that hard in those days, but you can simply think of the learning computer as a more advanced system than whatever they are mass-producing in 0079. It is not expensive to a point where you cannot have multiple of it around, but would be too expensive for every single machine. EFF mostly install them on testing units, so they can gather the data and information.
Also, they are not electrical circuits but are Optical intergrated circuits(Direct translation from the kanji, the Acronym is GMO, can't think of what the long form is except the O being Optical?), to prevent the influence from Minovsky particle. GMO seems to be still pretty rare in that era(Other computers are still electrical and only has protection from Minovsky particles) and that is pretty much the reason for its expensiveness.

S Gundam's ALICE was not simply a learning computer, but an add on system, separately located in the A and B parts(the G-Attacker and G-Bomber, basically the upper and lower body) At the end of the story, that system was destroyed and left with core fighter and the learning computer and didn't even have the ALICE program left in it.

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domtropen
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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by domtropen » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:13 pm

The GM from MSG won't be able to move its legs upwards without rubber metal for its box-shaped waist armor [which all MS in MSG seem to be equipped with for all their impossible movements if really fix on the design eg. Gundam kicking Rickdom's head], cannot bent its elbow, has no thrusters anywhere other than on its backpack and under its feet.

Seem like you are fixated on skirt and leg armor. If the front skirt armor is immovable neither GM, Rickdom nor Gelgoog would be able to move its legs forward much at all [actually Gelgoog would have more advantage with more room to move its leg up], and won't be able to point foot thruster forward much. As for knee bending the initial design's degree of movement possible would be up to anyone's intrepetretation and not reflected by the anime...but as for the double joint usage both MG Rickdom and the 1st ver of GM use double joint for their knees and achieve just about 90 degree bend. Also any instance where MS would try to bend their legs and knees backwards so much that its foot point skyward in total opposite direction of it backpack thrusters seems rare if any. From the design GM may be able to bend its foot downward more than Rickdom, but since both of them can bend their knees the foot back-bending does not seem that much of an advantage. It also look like GM's foot would have problem bending forward/upward much due to the ankle armor and backward placing ankle joint [without redesign]. Also Rickdom and Gelgoog's bigger foot would allow for more powerful thrusters to be installed in it than GM's foot. As for thrusters not pointing directly 90 degree downwards and blasting on its rearskirt Rickdom can simply bend its torso down a bit and the skirt would be out of the way, or bend up to point the back thruster down, and it can also shoot up using the rearskirt thrusters instead if needed anyway.

For Rickdom/Gelgoog thrusters and their usage see this discussion: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=12962&start=0 Both Rickdom and Gelgoog have more powerful thrusters on its legs and foot that would be more useful for changing direction than GM's puny foot thrusters. It is also interesting that more powerful version of GMs tend to gain more thrusters on backpack or bigger, gain skirt thrusters, getting leg/calf thrusters, etc.

I won't deny that GM should be more agile than Rickdom since its stat states that its turnaround time is 1.6s which is faster than Rickdom, and Rickdom is generally equipped with unwieldy bazooka. Gelgoog's 1.5s with more powerful thrusters would make it hard to believe it would be inferior to vanilla GM however.

I think we have gone off topic long enough, and we would probably agree to disagree anyway.
MythSearcher wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:29 am
domtropen wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:22 pm

In that case it's back to before: the question of MS movability. As shown in more updated figures etc. both Rickdom and Gelgoog can have wide range of motions. Obviously they can point their legs [with thrusters] and feet [with thrusters] around in many directions, and can bend their torso and butt a bit too. GM's back thruster doesn't have that much more range of motion than Rickdom, and it doesn't have any other big visible thrusters elsewhere other than at its feet [which both Rickdom and Gelgoog have]. As for Gelgoog its turnaround time is listed to be slightly faster than GM and ground running speed is a bit faster than GM too.
Like I said before, if you do not dramatically change the iconic shape of the Dom and Gelgoog, their armour will be limiting its thrust vectoring. You cannot ignore that no matter which model/figure you try to use.

Unless you redesign the Dom to have straight skirt like the GM, you cannot get the same range of motion. The Rick Dom's back thrusters obvsiouly cannot point straight down since that will be thrusting onto the skirt, which the GM doesn't have.
The problem is less if the main thrusters are in their feet(which seems like everyone is disproving this idea I was giving up there), but if even in that case, the back thrusters are still being obstructed and you have less range of full thrust. The GM doesn't have much more, but by saying that, you are already accepting the GM is superior in this design aspect. And the "not much more" argument is strange, quite obviously we are looking at at least 10-15 degrees of range here(the MG is like 30 degrees), which is pretty significant because the back thrusters only have less than 90 degrees to begin with.

The legs have the same problem, the Dom's leg armour will obstruct more range of motion, which is around 45 degrees out of the impossible ideal 180 degrees.(Actually, some models try to do this by having a double joint on the knee, so a well designed model can do a 180 degree bend) The GM's leg obstruction is only about 15-20 degrees.
Of course this also make the leg thrusters having less thrusting angles.

The skirt and leg armour aren't flexible, and it will be stupid to imply that they are. If they are flexible and will not obstruct the range of motion, than you don't need them to be that huge to begin with. The armour should be there to protect whatever is inside and leave as little space as possible to minimize the mass of the unit. You don't make a huge space inside so you can flex the armour for your range of motion.

And turning speed will always be slower than the vector thrusting angle change.(I mean, turning the thruster or bending a leg, don't tell me you seriously think that turning the whole MS can be faster)

It is a design flaw that the Rick Dom and Gelgoog cannot hope to overcome no matter how you try to put it. (Actually, it is likely not a flaw for the Dom since that seems to be an integral part of its hovering system) Which is obviously introduced because of the mechas are designed by someone with an art degree instead of an engineering and science degree.(and I admit it looked that much cooler with the wider frame, but just an engineering face palm design)

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