Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

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False Prophet
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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by False Prophet » Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:53 am

Say, we have talk about how the story structure makes it seems like the bad guys always have more mechas than the good guys. But what about spin-offs, especially OVAs? Their stories are smaller in conflict and rarely have that kind of threat escalation (like in Shonen manga, there is always a bigger bad guy than the current one.) A quick glance at MAHQ tells me that the Gundam OVAs tend to have around the same number of mechas for both sides.

On a side note, I know that art is evolving, but does anyone here think that it is strange for long-running series have their latter-additioned mechs looks out of place with the older ones? Like the Mortar Headd of FSS after Gothicmade.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:33 pm

Kuruni wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:54 pm

Guess we have some misunderstanding, I think the rear view suggest that the backpack thrusters are main ones because it's at least larger than ones on feet (should have write it more clear, sorry) and there's nothing visible at all on legs.
From the model's at least, the feet thrusters are larger in diameter.
The backpack ones are tiny, and is about 3mm on the HG models, but the feet ones have a double ring, the inner is at least 4mm and the outer about 8mm.

The number of thruster sets are indeed a good counter argument, but you can always find strange openings that can be non-listed verniers. The Jegan's largest thruster on the back had no output until the variants in F91.

Placing the main thrusters on the backpack is just inefficient, has smaller range of motion and less degree of freedom.
And balancing that will be hell. The MS's centre of mass isn't fixed, and any thrust not lined up with it will introduce an angular acceleration, and gets the unit to spin. The feet thrusters take care of that and is conceptually superior since it can utilize the AMBAC system fully.

But doesn't really matter in this argument, the GM still had a larger range of motion for its thrusters than the fixed back and skirt thrusters of Gelgoog(using the set number argument) and the Rick Dom's back thrusters simply thrust into its own skirt for most of its motion angle.

Just take a look at Dalong.net MG review, and you can see the silliness of the Rick Dom design.
False Prophet wrote:
Sat Jul 22, 2017 8:53 am
Say, we have talk about how the story structure makes it seems like the bad guys always have more mechas than the good guys. But what about spin-offs, especially OVAs? Their stories are smaller in conflict and rarely have that kind of threat escalation (like in Shonen manga, there is always a bigger bad guy than the current one.) A quick glance at MAHQ tells me that the Gundam OVAs tend to have around the same number of mechas for both sides.

On a side note, I know that art is evolving, but does anyone here think that it is strange for long-running series have their latter-additioned mechs looks out of place with the older ones? Like the Mortar Headd of FSS after Gothicmade.

The problem of the first part is that with the example of say, 0080, since the Zeon had established so many different models and the EFF only one, it'd be pretty easy to design variants for different Zeon models but variants for one EFF model. Also, the coolness of numbering your models gives the almost infinite possibilities of filling in gaps(With the German tank problem), so instead of just MS-05, 06, 07, 09, 14, 15, we now have 01,02,03,04,08,10,11,12,13,16,17,18,19,20,21...
Each development tree would be simply expanded more and thus the "bad guys" will tend to have more models and variants in the long run.

For the art evolution, well, I always assumed the Okawara Kunio models are from Jaburo and smarter looking ones are from Lunar II like I have mentioned earlier in this thread, so its not really out of place. Not really a fan of Okawara anyway.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by Kuruni » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:38 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:33 pm
Kuruni wrote:
Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:54 pm

Guess we have some misunderstanding, I think the rear view suggest that the backpack thrusters are main ones because it's at least larger than ones on feet (should have write it more clear, sorry) and there's nothing visible at all on legs.
From the model's at least, the feet thrusters are larger in diameter.
The backpack ones are tiny, and is about 3mm on the HG models, but the feet ones have a double ring, the inner is at least 4mm and the outer about 8mm.
In other words, you're speculating?
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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by domtropen » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:24 pm

Mahq lists the 4 thrusters [that should be the foot thrusters] of GM with 1,870 kg/pc so the total would be just 7,480 kg combined, far less thrust than just one of the two backpack thrusters at 24,000 kg /pc.

Rickdom and Gelgoog have thrusters on their feet too according to MG models [at least 3 per foot for Rickdom and 2 per foot for Gelgoog]. Even Zaku I has them.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by Kuruni » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:16 am

Back to topic. I would like to note that the old Super Sentai has only one mech. As the series go on, the new team keep getting more and more mech. Sometime the new mech is simply a back up or upgrade unit after the first mech is heavily damaged in one heck of battle. Sometime because the current crisis require ability not include in the current mech. Thankfully, they can later combine with the first mech into single unit (read "Buy them kid, kids"). Of course, the villains has 40+ monsters to used so they still outnumber the heroes.

The similar pattern seem to be used in Shinkansen Henkei Robo Shinkalion toyline. Currently there're only 2 or 3 types of Hajigami (the enemies), but the Shinkalion has about dozen. Although fact that most of them are based on actual train does help.
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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:49 am

domtropen wrote:
Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:24 pm
Mahq lists the 4 thrusters [that should be the foot thrusters] of GM with 1,870 kg/pc so the total would be just 7,480 kg combined, far less thrust than just one of the two backpack thrusters at 24,000 kg /pc.

Rickdom and Gelgoog have thrusters on their feet too according to MG models [at least 3 per foot for Rickdom and 2 per foot for Gelgoog]. Even Zaku I has them.
Still have the problem of thrust vectoring limitation if you see the feet thrusters as secondary.
The argument is simple, whether you see the backpack as main or the feet as main, the GM still has a wider angle of thrust vectoring and thus better control in max thrust in more directions and less limitation of AMBAC poses.

At least that is the view point of Physics and Engineering.


Talking about art style though, it seems like games, at least older ones, get a bit more leeway in having the same mob appearing repeatedly? People wouldn't mind killing off hundreds of the same grunt in a game and not seeing a bunch of special or new enemies as long as you have some kind of boss that looks special(but can be a slight variant of the mob). If it is in a game with a lot of selectable player characters, you might get similar number of protagonist and antagonist mecha? Can't think of a game that has such though.(Other than games based on existing franchise like Gundam Musou, which I haven't played but seems like you don't get a lot of different grunts)

Edit: Maybe the SD Musha Gundam (New SD Warring States: The Legendary Daishougun Chapter) RPG in SFC is a good example, you have tons of protagonist, with upgrades and will join your team, but very limited set of antagonist mob and boss. This can be rather obvious since the series is basically from modeling, and you seldom get antagonist models released and they don't have a lot of designs in the short manga that accompanies the model. Even in the later full manga, you don't see a lot of different mob.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by domtropen » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:01 pm

The degree of movement for model/toy depends heavily on whoever design it. For example this old MIA ver2 Rickdom has mobility that put MG to shame http://sranngurenn.blog70.fc2.com/blog-entry-3820.html

If MG is used for comparison foot and leg mobility of the 1st ver of GM and Rickdom are both rather poor compare to more modern HG/MG with newer design [not reuse/rehash of old model]. And if the design used for the original anime is used there would be loads of impossible movement [immobile box-like waist armor, some without proper elbow joint for example].

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:13 am

domtropen wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:01 pm
The degree of movement for model/toy depends heavily on whoever design it. For example this old MIA ver2 Rickdom has mobility that put MG to shame http://sranngurenn.blog70.fc2.com/blog-entry-3820.html

If MG is used for comparison foot and leg mobility of the 1st ver of GM and Rickdom are both rather poor compare to more modern HG/MG with newer design [not reuse/rehash of old model]. And if the design used for the original anime is used there would be loads of impossible movement [immobile box-like waist armor, some without proper elbow joint for example].
it really does depend on what the toy engineer decided to do in respect to joints and what parts will be molded as one piece or be jointed parts attached to each other. so they might not work for specs comparison as sometimes the toy lines mix features from other units in the same family as it might let the reuse parts and retool models from a existing mold. I know we have gotten toys of the GM that had features added from later models like an MG that has parts that fit like the C-type but molded to look like a classic GM.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:23 am

JEFFPIATT wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:13 am
it really does depend on what the toy engineer decided to do in respect to joints and what parts will be molded as one piece or be jointed parts attached to each other. so they might not work for specs comparison as sometimes the toy lines mix features from other units in the same family as it might let the reuse parts and retool models from a existing mold. I know we have gotten toys of the GM that had features added from later models like an MG that has parts that fit like the C-type but molded to look like a classic GM.
The problem is that unless you modify the Dom's skirt armour and leg armour to something that is completely out of the unit's concept, you have interference. You can have a Dom that has a skirt that looked like the Zaku's and say it doesn't interfere with the thrust, but that is completely out of reasonable deduction. The skirt of those suits are iconic to their artistic design, but too bulky in reality.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:45 am

I've been meaning to participate in this thread, but have been somewhat busy lately and have not been able to dig through some old sources. For the time being I want to throw a few ideas.

My overall impression is that Zeon MS are overall better than EF MS, but the EF's logistical muscle allows their weapons to be more effective.

-The Ball for one is indeed more economic to build, but it's also supposed to go quickly through its fuel when maneuvering. Some games also depict its cannon having a significant recoil (more on this in a moment.

-The GM is classified by some sources as a melee Type MS, which makes sense since it takes after the Gundam which fulfilled such role among the V project units. It's short range beam spray gun incidentally works rather well for such role.

-On the other hand, different sources seem to coin some significant flaws on the GM, such as it being expensive due to features such as its learning computer, or being an incomplete/rushed design, even called an accident prone machine. The later could immediately be related to the infamous scene of MS Igloo where 3 GMs break apart after pushing their engines too hard, before the Zudah itself also breaks apart. The overall problem is that the GM has the learning computer of the Gundam, yet its own body is of inferior quality due to cost reduction measures.

In both cases, the EF do has the means to compensate these flows to a great extent: they have the assets to continually resupply the Balls and constantly repair the GMs even if they were to break after every engagement.

In the case of Zeon it's evident that as the war continues their resources and supply lines become more and more constrained. This forces their machines to be deployed in subpar conditions or without optimal equipment. For instance:

-MS Igloo made an interesting change to the Gelgoog: all units had a high mobility backpack. According to MSV, Zeon were trying to produce over a 100 C-type backpacks, even more than the number of MS-14A units deployed by some accounts. A way to see this is that optimally Gelgoogs are supposed to be deployed with a backpack, and essentially deploying them in A-type configuration could be seen as the result of lacking the equipment to properly prepare them.

-In the case of the Dom, it's classified as a heavy type MS, a term coined to other bulky and heavily armored units. Its armor was intended to provide defense from EF combat vehicles (tanks and fighters) and from warships AA defenses. The later is the Doms likely intended target given its standard Giant Bazooka loadout, essentially a more powerful anti-ship weapon than the Zaku Bazooka.

-The Rick Dom is essentially the same as the J-Type Zaku: a stopgap unit converted from a unit with a different purpose/terrain in mind. However, it has access to a weapon that allows it to better fulfill the role of heavy artillery MS: the beam Bazooka, a weapon with much greater range and power than the HMs beam spray gun. Unfortunately resources and Or production limitations don't allow many of these to be fielded, even if a specialized variant, the MS-09RS, is developed to make better use of this weapon. It's also worth noting that in the novels Zeon's newtype unit leased by Char use Rick Doms with beam bazookas as their standard unit, and Char is able to keep up with the RX-78-3 using his unit.

-Even if external propellant tanks are something that should be easily implemented, it doesn't seem to be the case for the EF. Reasons could include the aforementioned mechanical problems of the GM, which could case the EF to prefer having their MS constantly return for resupplying in order to also address any problems that may arise during combat. Other reasons could be the EF's adversity at giving individuals too much credit, as means to reinforces their doctrine of strength through numbers. In this case it could be translated into not giving too much resources that would help him/her standout too much in combat.

-I'm left with the impression that the EF was disappointed of the GM after the OYW: not only they adopted Zeon MS to fill their ranks, but by 0083 they were trying to rebuild their fleet around the gunship concept and disregarding the need of MS support facilities on their ships.

Lastly there's the issue of weight and thrust figures, which unfortunately is very complicated. If we go all the way back to Gundam Century, we can find that the GM was supposed to be heavier than Zakus. Many members of the Dom and Gelgoog series have conflicting specs that have led to several discussions on how to interpret them, such as the Gelgoogs two different base weights which come and go.

-On the same note, Another issue we have discussed is that different sources seem to consider different thrusters when writing the specs for a MS total thrust. I particularly remember the case of the Zssa, whose base MS is given a minuscule total thruster figure that only considers two of the Zssa's multiple thrusters, ignoring others such as the 6 large calf thrusters. Things are worse when you consider that such low thrust is also meant to be the thrust the unit would have if equipped with the additional shoulder mounted missile launchers which don't add any more thrusters but do add even more weight. In the case of the Dom and Gelgoog, not all sources consider that they have: backpack thrusters, skirt thrusters, calf thrusters and foot sole thrusters, and IIRC, the difference in Rick Dom II specs between 0080 and 0083 was likely to difference of interpretation.

And as already mentioned, machines like the Rick Dom or Char's Gelgoog are shown as having performance than can match tthat of he Gundam. In the case of the Gelgoog, we could further assume that if the plan is to give a backpack to all units, then we could speculate that all units are supposed to outclass the Gundam, at least spec wise. Incidentally this approach of the Gelgoog is precisely what the EF was trying to develop themselves in the form of the RX-81, a true mass production version of the Gundam with exchangeable equipment.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:32 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 3:45 am
Cutting this short.

The GMs never had learning computers, each of those are way too expensive and EFF didn't install those unless they have a core fighter to protect them.
When they ditched the core fighter in the GM, they removed the learning computer.

The malfunction prone GMs are the early production type, and according to the MG Manual, should only have 42 of those. The late production type and other variants had no such problem. In fact, the GMs are known to be stable units with no surprises, this includes specs.

And the Ball's cannon, I won't trust the games, seriously, the cannon in the setting is a recoiless cannon(I would say low recoil but official wording is none), I don't recall seeing them having any serious recoil greater than the Guntank in the anime.

The GM is a mass-production of the Gundam, but this doesn't make it a close range unit, in fact, it uses the Guncannon head design, which is for a middle ranged unit. (The twin camera of Gundam gives it a wider view angle for close range combat with the pay off of shorter range) The spray gun has a shorter range, but the GM can also use bazookas and the spray gun was not shown to have a shorter range than the machine guns, while the rifle is almost always shown to have the extra ability to snipe at even further range.

Ease of maintenance must be a great concern of EFF, they even sacrificed armour weight efficiency to make the GM easier to maintain.

And the EFF's doctrine of strength in numbers just doesn't work at current settings, the GM and Ball weren't really produced in that high number, and surely couldn't keep their numbers at higher than Zeon's deployment at both Solomon and ABQ. You only have 1200 Balls, and the GM without variants, had 42+288 for the early and late types, at most 6 times of that. Variants had at most around 50 each and you get around 10-12 variants(some ground type so even lower) It is hard to get the EFF numbers over the 3000-3200 MS the Zeon deployed in Solomon and ABQ.
(okay, some licensed outside sources did gave around 5000 in ABQ, but Gundam Officials denied that number since the EFSF didn't have that much ships to carry them even if you had them stacked on the deck.)
This actually makes sense since EFF didn't start their MS production until some time in September 0079, and Zeon was already producing MS since 0075, even when EF had 30 times the national power of Zeon at the start of the war, around 2/3 of Earth was under war for over 8 months, the production plants can hardly be stamping out thousands of new weapons in such short period compared to the experienced Zeon production plants. The Zaku production numbers at 9000 and Dom+R.Dom at 6000, both hard to beat numbers no matter what source you use for GM and Ball.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:11 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:32 am


The GM is a mass-production of the Gundam, but this doesn't make it a close range unit, in fact, it uses the Guncannon head design, which is for a middle ranged unit. (The twin camera of Gundam gives it a wider view angle for close range combat with the pay off of shorter range) The spray gun has a shorter range, but the GM can also use bazookas and the spray gun was not shown to have a shorter range than the machine guns, while the rifle is almost always shown to have the extra ability to snipe at even further range.
the RGM-79 GM actually has a very different head unit from the RX-77. The Guncannon head has a straight visor while the GM has a upside down T shaped visor. https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gu ... 1210025858

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by domtropen » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:00 pm

In animation Rick Dom and Rick Dom II often fly forward using back thrusters with body at upward angle diagonally, not with body lying down superman-style. Their back thrusters point upward away from the body and skirt.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:47 am

JEFFPIATT wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:11 am
the RGM-79 GM actually has a very different head unit from the RX-77. The Guncannon head has a straight visor while the GM has a upside down T shaped visor. https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gu ... 1210025858
You only have a cap for the Guncannon.
https://truth.bahamut.com.tw/s01/201708 ... 81993b.GIF

The upside down T tail part had no visible sensors to begin with.
Granted, the GM had the forehead camera for Gundam, but the overall design is closer to the Guncannon head.

And the fact remains that the GM had the same sensor range as the Guncannon.
domtropen wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:00 pm
In animation Rick Dom and Rick Dom II often fly forward using back thrusters with body at upward angle diagonally, not with body lying down superman-style. Their back thrusters point upward away from the body and skirt.

It is not about one single direction, it is about the range of motion.
The advantage of MS is its AMBAC system, a space fighter like the FF-S3 can use all of its main and likely sub thrusters in the back direction, but it lacks the ability to point it to more directions like MSs do.
If you cannot simply point most of your thrusters towards another direction and flee, but needed to turn the whole body before you can get away with full thrust, you lower your chance of survival. Same applies to moving to a correct position to attack.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:35 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:32 am
The GMs never had learning computers, each of those are way too expensive and EFF didn't install those unless they have a core fighter to protect them.
When they ditched the core fighter in the GM, they removed the learning computer.
According to Gundam Century, the most expensive systems of the GM were the learning computer, beam rifle and thermonuclear reactor. The reactor isn't surprising, and there have been discussions on the topic. The beam rifle on the other hand is likely meant to refer to the beam spray gun, not an actual beam rifle like the Gundam's. this leaves the learning computer.

Now, I agree that the GM didn't have a learning computer like the Gundam, but we do know that the GMs do incorporate data from it which supposedly helped EF rookie pilots fight better than their Zeon counterparts. AFAIK, the exact way this was implemented is not actually stated, but this source could actually imply that it's an assist AI, with the big difference form the Gundam's being that this one doesn't learn any new tricks and rather can just implement what it was programmed with from the beginning.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160213015 ... ntury.html
The malfunction prone GMs are the early production type, and according to the MG Manual, should only have 42 of those. The late production type and other variants had no such problem. In fact, the GMs are known to be stable units with no surprises, this includes specs.
No, the reference in question is talking about the post-OYW and doesn't make any such differentiation, rather it may even imply that all OYW GMs can be considered accident prone machines, as their development was rushed due to the war situation, not to mention that the EF was already developing a proper mass production version of the Gundam, the RX-81. Also, IIRC Mark pointed out that one of the few differences between the 42 early GM models (RGM-79A) and the later model (RGM-79B) was that the RGM-79A could only operate on Earth, therefore the RGM-79 units that malfunctioned in MS Igloo must have been RGM-79B, in other words, not early production type GMs.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160213015 ... ndam3.html
And the Ball's cannon, I won't trust the games, seriously, the cannon in the setting is a recoiless cannon(I would say low recoil but official wording is none), I don't recall seeing them having any serious recoil greater than the Guntank in the anime.
Check MS Igloo episode 3, namely the attack on the Odessa survivors: basically Balls have little recoil issues when firing while advancing, but when firing from a static position, the recoil actually noticeable knocks them back.
The GM is a mass-production of the Gundam, but this doesn't make it a close range unit, in fact, it uses the Guncannon head design, which is for a middle ranged unit. (The twin camera of Gundam gives it a wider view angle for close range combat with the pay off of shorter range) The spray gun has a shorter range, but the GM can also use bazookas and the spray gun was not shown to have a shorter range than the machine guns, while the rifle is almost always shown to have the extra ability to snipe at even further range.
No, the head of the GM is a simplification of the Gundam's complex head design according to Gundam Century. Let's remember that even the MG Cannon was supposed to have a Guncannon's head as per the early test models, but ultimately used a GM head in order to reduce costs by sharing components.
Ease of maintenance must be a great concern of EFF, they even sacrificed armour weight efficiency to make the GM easier to maintain.
I'm more inclined to think that it was simply another cost reduction measure.

Talking about production numbers would almost deserve a thread of its own, and I don't mind participating. But before heading there, I suggest checking couple of old threads that already cover the basics:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11881
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11901
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14896

A few notes of importance:

-Ball production has remained static through the years, with the original claim of 1,200 being echoed even today.
-The 288 figure has changed overtime and the most recent retcon courtesy of MSV-R has it as the production figure of the second GM production run, out of 4 runs.
MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:32 am
The GMs never had learning computers, each of those are way too expensive and EFF didn't install those unless they have a core fighter to protect them.
When they ditched the core fighter in the GM, they removed the learning computer.
According to Gundam Century, the most expensive systems of the GM were the learning computer, beam rifle and thermonuclear reactor. The reactor isn't surprising, and there have been discussions on the topic. The beam rifle on the other hand is likely meant to refer to the beam spray gun, not an actual beam rifle like the Gundam's. this leaves the learning computer.

Now, I agree that the GM didn't have a learning computer like the Gundam, but we do know that the GMs do incorporate data from it which supposedly helped EF rookie pilots fight better than their Zeon counterparts. AFAIK, the exact way this was implemented is not actually stated, but this source could actually imply that it's an assist AI, with the big difference form the Gundam's being that this one doesn't learn any new tricks and rather can just implement what it was programmed with from the beginning.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160213015 ... ntury.html
The malfunction prone GMs are the early production type, and according to the MG Manual, should only have 42 of those. The late production type and other variants had no such problem. In fact, the GMs are known to be stable units with no surprises, this includes specs.
No, the reference in question is talking about the post-OYW and doesn't make any such differentiation, rather it may even imply that all OYW GMs can be considered accident prone machines, as their development was rushed due to the war situation, not to mention that the EF was already developing a proper mass production version of the Gundam, the RX-81. Also, IIRC Mark pointed out that one of the few differences between the 42 early GM models (RGM-79A) and the later model (RGM-79B) was that the RGM-79A could only operate on Earth, therefore the RGM-79 units that malfunctioned in MS Igloo must have been RGM-79B, in other words, not early production type GMs.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160213015 ... ndam3.html
And the Ball's cannon, I won't trust the games, seriously, the cannon in the setting is a recoiless cannon(I would say low recoil but official wording is none), I don't recall seeing them having any serious recoil greater than the Guntank in the anime.
Check MS Igloo episode 3, namely the attack on the Odessa survivors: basically Balls have little recoil issues when firing while advancing, but when firing from a static position, the recoil actually noticeable knocks them back.
The GM is a mass-production of the Gundam, but this doesn't make it a close range unit, in fact, it uses the Guncannon head design, which is for a middle ranged unit. (The twin camera of Gundam gives it a wider view angle for close range combat with the pay off of shorter range) The spray gun has a shorter range, but the GM can also use bazookas and the spray gun was not shown to have a shorter range than the machine guns, while the rifle is almost always shown to have the extra ability to snipe at even further range.
No, the head of the GM is a simplification of the Gundam's complex head design according to Gundam Century. Let's remember that even the MG Cannon was supposed to have a Guncannon's head as per the early test models, but ultimately used a GM head in order to reduce costs by sharing components.
Ease of maintenance must be a great concern of EFF, they even sacrificed armour weight efficiency to make the GM easier to maintain.
I'm more inclined to think that it was simply another cost reduction measure.

Talking about production numbers almost deserve its own thread. But before heading there, I suggest checking couple of old threads that already cover the basics:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11881
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11901
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14896

A few notes of importance:

-Ball production has remained static through the years, with the original claim of 1,200 being echoed even today.
-The 288 figure has changed overtime and the most recent retcon courtesy of MSV-R has it as the figure of the second GM production run, out of 4 runs.
-It's important to note that the Zeon MS figures also have many ups and downs, even more than the GM, with the Zaku series claimed to have production runs of 2,000, 4,000 or 8,000 according to different sources. It seems that the current consensus is about 3,200 MS-06 units and about 800 MS-05 units for a total of 4,000 Zaku type MS produced.
-While I've heard different production numbers for the Gelgoog, between 165 and 740, I'd never heard of other production number for the Dom series. The one I know was 600 units, which was the result of 3 months worth of producing 200 units at Granada starting September and before production switched to the Gelgoog (and Galbaldy series) during the last few weeks of the war.
-Watch out about mixing sources: MSV says that EF had 600 MS and fighters during the battle of Solomon, while the opposing Zeon force had 800 between MS and MA (and likely also Gattle fighters). Entertainment Bible instead claims that Zeon had 3,400 MS while the opposing EF forces had 5,200 MS, actually more than Zeon's.

Lastly, MS Igloo mentions at one point that the numerical difference between the Zeon forces and the EF's is about 6:1 and we indeed see quite often groups GMs and Balls swarm on smaller groups of Zeon MS. This particular situation do could lead to misunderstandings that could mix the EF's 4,800 GMs from EB with the much lower number of Zeon forces, such as 800 (just like the forces at Solomon according to MSV) if they were indeed 1/6th of the invading EF forces.

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MythSearcher
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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:31 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 7:35 pm
According to Gundam Century, the most expensive systems of the GM were the learning computer, beam rifle and thermonuclear reactor. The reactor isn't surprising, and there have been discussions on the topic. The beam rifle on the other hand is likely meant to refer to the beam spray gun, not an actual beam rifle like the Gundam's. this leaves the learning computer.

Now, I agree that the GM didn't have a learning computer like the Gundam, but we do know that the GMs do incorporate data from it which supposedly helped EF rookie pilots fight better than their Zeon counterparts. AFAIK, the exact way this was implemented is not actually stated, but this source could actually imply that it's an assist AI, with the big difference form the Gundam's being that this one doesn't learn any new tricks and rather can just implement what it was programmed with from the beginning.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160213015 ... ntury.html
Well, if we refer to Gundam Officials and the MG Manual, the GM had a much simplified on board computer.
Gundam Century was before the major ramification settings change in the 90's and a lot of the discrepant information was discarded.

No, the reference in question is talking about the post-OYW and doesn't make any such differentiation, rather it may even imply that all OYW GMs can be considered accident prone machines, as their development was rushed due to the war situation, not to mention that the EF was already developing a proper mass production version of the Gundam, the RX-81. Also, IIRC Mark pointed out that one of the few differences between the 42 early GM models (RGM-79A) and the later model (RGM-79B) was that the RGM-79A could only operate on Earth, therefore the RGM-79 units that malfunctioned in MS Igloo must have been RGM-79B, in other words, not early production type GMs.

https://web.archive.org/web/20160213015 ... ndam3.html
The current settings seems to be pretty stable in this sense with the exception of MS Igloo which is pretty much on crack with the machines(especially with the pro-Zeon and pro-militarism producer)
GMs are supposed to be stable machines and that is why they are remodeled into GM II and further as GM IIIs, and plans are reused to build brand new units of GM II and GM IIIs.
Check MS Igloo episode 3, namely the attack on the Odessa survivors: basically Balls have little recoil issues when firing while advancing, but when firing from a static position, the recoil actually noticeable knocks them back.
That makes little sense. Well, for a show that can have warships that can turn 90~180 degrees in a second, Physics accuracy is obviously ditched for dramatization.
No, the head of the GM is a simplification of the Gundam's complex head design according to Gundam Century. Let's remember that even the MG Cannon was supposed to have a Guncannon's head as per the early test models, but ultimately used a GM head in order to reduce costs by sharing components.
Right, I checked different sources and that is true.
That still doesn't cover the part where the GM has a longer sensor range than the Gundam and having the same range as Guncannon.
At least it will not be limited to close range combat with its longer range.
In places where it is specifically stated, like the MG Manual, Gundam is said to be close range and GM was just Mass-production, in English on the cover.
I'm more inclined to think that it was simply another cost reduction measure.

Talking about production numbers would almost deserve a thread of its own, and I don't mind participating. But before heading there, I suggest checking couple of old threads that already cover the basics:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11881
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11901
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=14896

A few notes of importance:

-Ball production has remained static through the years, with the original claim of 1,200 being echoed even today.
-The 288 figure has changed overtime and the most recent retcon courtesy of MSV-R has it as the production figure of the second GM production run, out of 4 runs.

-It's important to note that the Zeon MS figures also have many ups and downs, even more than the GM, with the Zaku series claimed to have production runs of 2,000, 4,000 or 8,000 according to different sources. It seems that the current consensus is about 3,200 MS-06 units and about 800 MS-05 units for a total of 4,000 Zaku type MS produced.
-While I've heard different production numbers for the Gelgoog, between 165 and 740, I'd never heard of other production number for the Dom series. The one I know was 600 units, which was the result of 3 months worth of producing 200 units at Granada starting September and before production switched to the Gelgoog (and Galbaldy series) during the last few weeks of the war.
-Watch out about mixing sources: MSV says that EF had 600 MS and fighters during the battle of Solomon, while the opposing Zeon force had 800 between MS and MA (and likely also Gattle fighters). Entertainment Bible instead claims that Zeon had 3,400 MS while the opposing EF forces had 5,200 MS, actually more than Zeon's.

Lastly, MS Igloo mentions at one point that the numerical difference between the Zeon forces and the EF's is about 6:1 and we indeed see quite often groups GMs and Balls swarm on smaller groups of Zeon MS. This particular situation do could lead to misunderstandings that could mix the EF's 4,800 GMs from EB with the much lower number of Zeon forces, such as 800 (just like the forces at Solomon according to MSV) if they were indeed 1/6th of the invading EF forces.
Placing Gundam Officials' production number, would make the MS-05A at 27 and B at 793, so a total of 820 MS-05 are produced.
For MS-06, number given for 06C is 236; 06F, which is "over 3000" with discrepant info being 3246(exact) or over 8000. With these numbers, we can make the same conclusion as the MG Manual, the MS-06 has a much higher number than 3000.
In the battle of Loum, there is already a total of 2920 participated(320 MS-05 and 2600 MS-06)
It would be really strange to say that Zeon did not produce MS-06 in great number after Loum, they had to produce a large number of MS-06J and refill the lost 06F, and further produce F2 and FZ.
Since Zeon set up MS factories on Earth pretty early on in the War, stamping out thousands of MS would be much easier than EFF's six bases which only started production in Oct 0079.

The EB numbers are pretty much disproved in Gundam Officials, which placed as doubtful. But the doubt was placed more on the EFF side with low number of ships that can hardly support that many MS, but with on the other hand doubting the Zeon having a ship oriented number instead of more MS.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by domtropen » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:22 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:47 am

domtropen wrote:
Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:00 pm
In animation Rick Dom and Rick Dom II often fly forward using back thrusters with body at upward angle diagonally, not with body lying down superman-style. Their back thrusters point upward away from the body and skirt.

It is not about one single direction, it is about the range of motion.
The advantage of MS is its AMBAC system, a space fighter like the FF-S3 can use all of its main and likely sub thrusters in the back direction, but it lacks the ability to point it to more directions like MSs do.
If you cannot simply point most of your thrusters towards another direction and flee, but needed to turn the whole body before you can get away with full thrust, you lower your chance of survival. Same applies to moving to a correct position to attack.
In that case it's back to before: the question of MS movability. As shown in more updated figures etc. both Rickdom and Gelgoog can have wide range of motions. Obviously they can point their legs [with thrusters] and feet [with thrusters] around in many directions, and can bend their torso and butt a bit too. GM's back thruster doesn't have that much more range of motion than Rickdom, and it doesn't have any other big visible thrusters elsewhere other than at its feet [which both Rickdom and Gelgoog have]. As for Gelgoog its turnaround time is listed to be slightly faster than GM and ground running speed is a bit faster than GM too.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:29 am

domtropen wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:22 pm

In that case it's back to before: the question of MS movability. As shown in more updated figures etc. both Rickdom and Gelgoog can have wide range of motions. Obviously they can point their legs [with thrusters] and feet [with thrusters] around in many directions, and can bend their torso and butt a bit too. GM's back thruster doesn't have that much more range of motion than Rickdom, and it doesn't have any other big visible thrusters elsewhere other than at its feet [which both Rickdom and Gelgoog have]. As for Gelgoog its turnaround time is listed to be slightly faster than GM and ground running speed is a bit faster than GM too.
Like I said before, if you do not dramatically change the iconic shape of the Dom and Gelgoog, their armour will be limiting its thrust vectoring. You cannot ignore that no matter which model/figure you try to use.

Unless you redesign the Dom to have straight skirt like the GM, you cannot get the same range of motion. The Rick Dom's back thrusters obvsiouly cannot point straight down since that will be thrusting onto the skirt, which the GM doesn't have.
The problem is less if the main thrusters are in their feet(which seems like everyone is disproving this idea I was giving up there), but if even in that case, the back thrusters are still being obstructed and you have less range of full thrust. The GM doesn't have much more, but by saying that, you are already accepting the GM is superior in this design aspect. And the "not much more" argument is strange, quite obviously we are looking at at least 10-15 degrees of range here(the MG is like 30 degrees), which is pretty significant because the back thrusters only have less than 90 degrees to begin with.

The legs have the same problem, the Dom's leg armour will obstruct more range of motion, which is around 45 degrees out of the impossible ideal 180 degrees.(Actually, some models try to do this by having a double joint on the knee, so a well designed model can do a 180 degree bend) The GM's leg obstruction is only about 15-20 degrees.
Of course this also make the leg thrusters having less thrusting angles.

The skirt and leg armour aren't flexible, and it will be stupid to imply that they are. If they are flexible and will not obstruct the range of motion, than you don't need them to be that huge to begin with. The armour should be there to protect whatever is inside and leave as little space as possible to minimize the mass of the unit. You don't make a huge space inside so you can flex the armour for your range of motion.

And turning speed will always be slower than the vector thrusting angle change.(I mean, turning the thruster or bending a leg, don't tell me you seriously think that turning the whole MS can be faster)

It is a design flaw that the Rick Dom and Gelgoog cannot hope to overcome no matter how you try to put it. (Actually, it is likely not a flaw for the Dom since that seems to be an integral part of its hovering system) Which is obviously introduced because of the mechas are designed by someone with an art degree instead of an engineering and science degree.(and I admit it looked that much cooler with the wider frame, but just an engineering face palm design)

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by False Prophet » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:22 am

How expensive a learning computer can be? I mean, if you look at this day and age, even undergraduates are building AI capable of deep learning. Not to mention that it is very likely for the pilots to control a MS, they would need an advanced A.I system to handle a lot of the work.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by yazi88 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:36 pm

Apparently outside the RX-78-2's learning computer, computer's aren't much of a factor in U.C. A.I comes to play for the S Gundam and Amakusa along with the 2 F-90 units on Mars. F-91 does take computers to another step but it is pretty much a reverse Psychommu system where input is brought TO the pilot rather than output taken from the pilot in Psychommu systems. Newtype systems are complex computer systems, so that takes a lot of work and effort, and a large frame and taken to a new level during CCA/Unicorn with the Psychoframe system.

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