Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by yazi88 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:11 am

At the end of the OYW, Zeon's final production models seemed to be been more of a much for Federation units in terms of performance because of the UMP. The Gelgoog Jaegar, Rick Dom II/Dom Funf/Tropen, Zaku II Kai, Z'gok E and Hygoog were quite better in terms of performance compared to their previous designs while the Federationu's GM Sniper II was pretty much their best GM variant. Commands were better but not by much to the base GM.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:29 am

yazi88 wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:11 am
At the end of the OYW, Zeon's final production models seemed to be been more of a much for Federation units in terms of performance because of the UMP. The Gelgoog Jaegar, Rick Dom II/Dom Funf/Tropen, Zaku II Kai, Z'gok E and Hygoog were quite better in terms of performance compared to their previous designs while the Federationu's GM Sniper II was pretty much their best GM variant. Commands were better but not by much to the base GM.
The problem of the final models are mostly about their short operational time. They are more like interceptors that has a much shorter range than fighters do and thus a better performance.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by yazi88 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:29 am
yazi88 wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:11 am
At the end of the OYW, Zeon's final production models seemed to be been more of a much for Federation units in terms of performance because of the UMP. The Gelgoog Jaegar, Rick Dom II/Dom Funf/Tropen, Zaku II Kai, Z'gok E and Hygoog were quite better in terms of performance compared to their previous designs while the Federationu's GM Sniper II was pretty much their best GM variant. Commands were better but not by much to the base GM.
The problem of the final models are mostly about their short operational time. They are more like interceptors that has a much shorter range than fighters do and thus a better performance.

While the Zaku 2 Kai does have that problem, Gelgoog Jaegar and Rick Dom 2 have propellant tanks for longer operations, I don't remember any other unit in the OYW have extra tanks aside from these 2 units and the Gelgoog Marine...

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:23 am

yazi88 wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 pm
MythSearcher wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:29 am
yazi88 wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:11 am
At the end of the OYW, Zeon's final production models seemed to be been more of a much for Federation units in terms of performance because of the UMP. The Gelgoog Jaegar, Rick Dom II/Dom Funf/Tropen, Zaku II Kai, Z'gok E and Hygoog were quite better in terms of performance compared to their previous designs while the Federationu's GM Sniper II was pretty much their best GM variant. Commands were better but not by much to the base GM.
The problem of the final models are mostly about their short operational time. They are more like interceptors that has a much shorter range than fighters do and thus a better performance.

While the Zaku 2 Kai does have that problem, Gelgoog Jaegar and Rick Dom 2 have propellant tanks for longer operations, I don't remember any other unit in the OYW have extra tanks aside from these 2 units and the Gelgoog Marine...
The primary issue Zeon had was that the quick switches between MS manufactures was done without contracting for any parts compatibility until very late in the war when the UMP models finally got rolled out. This led to supply chain issues as a ship with a fleet of Dom's would be unable to matain them if the only parts shipped to them where Zaku parts as there was no compatibility between the models. The EF pretty much standardized on the RGM-79 frame and built all there special units based off one model closer to the US WW II projects where many factories competed for a contract with the final model being a mix of the various prototypes parts to pick a final model. both Jabero and Luna 2 seemed to be competing in some form as late in the war they had the earth built RGM-79 working with the luna 2 built RGM-79C.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:23 am

yazi88 wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 pm

While the Zaku 2 Kai does have that problem, Gelgoog Jaegar and Rick Dom 2 have propellant tanks for longer operations, I don't remember any other unit in the OYW have extra tanks aside from these 2 units and the Gelgoog Marine...
I see this differenly.
Adding propellant tanks can increase the operational time, but this also stands true for other units as well.
A reversed example can be seen in the A6M Zero of WWII, it needed longer operational time, so it has to fill its wings and turn those into fuel tanks. The problem of this is that the wings are the parts that got hit the most, and thus most inappropriate to store fuel, which is the reason other countries' fighters don't do so. When the US used captured Zeros to test out their performances, the operational time without the wing tanks are not better than other fighters.

Also, propellant tanks wouldn't be hard to add in almost all designs, they are not really parts that will take a lot of stress, and the MS will always have refuel hatches, thus you only need to add mounts on the armour plates and attach the tanks to it.
JEFFPIATT wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:23 am
The primary issue Zeon had was that the quick switches between MS manufactures was done without contracting for any parts compatibility until very late in the war when the UMP models finally got rolled out. This led to supply chain issues as a ship with a fleet of Dom's would be unable to matain them if the only parts shipped to them where Zaku parts as there was no compatibility between the models. The EF pretty much standardized on the RGM-79 frame and built all there special units based off one model closer to the US WW II projects where many factories competed for a contract with the final model being a mix of the various prototypes parts to pick a final model. both Jabero and Luna 2 seemed to be competing in some form as late in the war they had the earth built RGM-79 working with the luna 2 built RGM-79C.
The fun thing here is that the WWII US M4 actually didn't have standardized parts, the parts manufactured by different factories in different states can be different enough so they don't fit into tanks made by another state.
It is just that the manufactured tanks and parts are so numerous, all the US needed to do is to make sure the parts manufactured by a state gets to ship to where they deploy that state's tanks.

I've always like to use the Luna II and Jaburo analogy to this, there are exceptions, but Kunio Okawara designs are mainly Jaburo and the 0080, 0083 and 08th MS team designs are mainly Luna II, they look vastly different and has similar upgrades but doesn't seem at all compatible to each other.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by yazi88 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:43 am

I'm not talking nor comparing to the WWII analogy, I'm sticking to the in-universe specs of UC. In the description and the specs, fuel tanks on these UMP mobile suits helped their operation time considerably compared to other units in the OYW. Especially useful for hit and run attacks as shown in 0080 WiP's space battles.

These are fictional machines with their own powerplants and fictoinal weapons that I really can't base real life machines on aside from a few possible manufacturing aspects. Because after the OYW, manufacturing is done at multiple places and isn't really much of a factor after the OYW because pretty much everything is made at Anaheim aside from Titan's Earth factories and Zeon's Axis MS.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:16 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:43 am
I'm not talking nor comparing to the WWII analogy, I'm sticking to the in-universe specs of UC. In the description and the specs, fuel tanks on these UMP mobile suits helped their operation time considerably compared to other units in the OYW. Especially useful for hit and run attacks as shown in 0080 WiP's space battles.

These are fictional machines with their own powerplants and fictoinal weapons that I really can't base real life machines on aside from a few possible manufacturing aspects. Because after the OYW, manufacturing is done at multiple places and isn't really much of a factor after the OYW because pretty much everything is made at Anaheim aside from Titan's Earth factories and Zeon's Axis MS.
I am saying the fuel tanks can be added to other models and add their operational time as well, thus those UMP models will still have shorter operational time compared to the other models by the same percentage.

The second part I was replying to JEFFPIATT and isn't really related to the first.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by yazi88 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:54 pm

Outside of UMP with the Gelgoog Jaegar and Rick Dom II, only other OYW units with see with fuel tanks are Thunderbolt units and the Gelgoog Marine. I don't even know if previous production units are compatible with fuel tanks unless they were built with those in mind or if they get backpack modifications like the Thunderbolt units.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:36 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:33 pm
The majority of MS that Zeon was using is inferior to the EFF's models. They did not have even limited production models that can keep up with the development like the Nazis. In air, land and undersurface combat vehicles the Nazi Germany did have pretty good designs rolling out throughout the war, and didn't really need to rely on a late design like the Gelgoog to catch up with the Allies.
As I mentioned before, the problem is you're not comparing like against like... you're condemning the Principality of Zeon's Mobile Suits as inferior based on a spec comparison between Zeon units that predate the One Year War's start and Federation suits that were introduced late in the war and benefitted from "lessons learned" from Zakus that were captured by the Earth Federation Forces. That's like condemning the Allies fighters in WW2 as inferior based on the performance difference between the Me 262A-1a and P-51D. One knocks the other into a cocked hat, but primarily because it's years newer and incorporates more new technology.

When you compare the RGM-79 GM against its contemporary models from the Principality like the MS-09 Dom and MS-14 Gelgoog, the inferiority argument doesn't hold up and we get a much better fit for Nazi Germany's military in Zeon.


MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:33 pm
As oppose to Zeon, the mainstay is the Zaku with many variants and kept being the most common field unit until the Dom/Rick Dom, but at least the Rick Dom isn't that much more powerful compared to the much cheaper Ball(which is a design of similar period). The GM, by spec, is good enough of a match against the Gelgoog, and doesn't really need to rely on numbers like the T-34 or M4 against the Tiger.
The mainstay WAS the Zaku II... both the Dom and Gelgoog were intended to replace it late in the war, and both outperform the RGM-79 in almost every respect. Both have more generator output, more engine thrust, higher overland top speeds and where documented also faster turn speeds. The only advantage the GM has is it has a longer sensor range than the Dom and better acceleration than either.

The Gelgoog is Zeon's Me 262... the latecomer with all the latest toys that outclassed the enemy's offerings, but was kept out of the fight by logistical problems until it was too late to make a significant difference.
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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by yazi88 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:23 pm

GM also had more numbers and better pilots overall compared to the time that Gelgoog was rolled out at the end of the war. In terms of specs the Gelgoog is quite superior to the GM. What we saw at the end of MSG and Igloo with battle of A Bao Qu, Gelgoog had novice pilots for the most part compared to the hardened GM veterns, who also had more numbers.

The Zaku II's later variations also helped close the gap between its performance and the GMs, the Zaku IIA high mobility units made for a somewhat of a stopgap until stronger machines were rolled out especially for Zeon's skilled pilots when fighting against Federation MS. Although it seemed like most of the skilled pilots/aces moved from the high mobility Zaku variants to the Gelgoog. Anavel Gato is the only ace I can think of that used a Rick Dom albeit customized version. There are probably a few more that used a Rick Dom but not much from I can remember.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:08 pm

yazi88 wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:23 pm
GM also had more numbers and better pilots overall compared to the time that Gelgoog was rolled out at the end of the war. In terms of specs the Gelgoog is quite superior to the GM. What we saw at the end of MSG and Igloo with battle of A Bao Qu, Gelgoog had novice pilots for the most part compared to the hardened GM veterns, who also had more numbers.
Yep, I mentioned that back on the previous page as part of the parallel I was drawing between the Principality of Zeon's situation and Nazi Germany's. They wasted a heap of time and resources on a bunch of dead-end projects and flawed designs, so that by the time their certified game-changer was ready for action in any numbers they'd run out of experienced troops and were resorting to minimally-trained volunteers and youth militias. They were running on empty to the extent that their stopgap opponent for the RB-79 Ball was a kitbashed piece of junk (the Oggo).

(Tragically highlighted in MS IGLOO, with Zeon even deploying rear echelon logistical and engineering teams to operate mobile suits and mobile armors in concert with underage kids.)
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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:15 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:36 pm
As I mentioned before, the problem is you're not comparing like against like... you're condemning the Principality of Zeon's Mobile Suits as inferior based on a spec comparison between Zeon units that predate the One Year War's start and Federation suits that were introduced late in the war and benefitted from "lessons learned" from Zakus that were captured by the Earth Federation Forces. That's like condemning the Allies fighters in WW2 as inferior based on the performance difference between the Me 262A-1a and P-51D. One knocks the other into a cocked hat, but primarily because it's years newer and incorporates more new technology.

When you compare the RGM-79 GM against its contemporary models from the Principality like the MS-09 Dom and MS-14 Gelgoog, the inferiority argument doesn't hold up and we get a much better fit for Nazi Germany's military in Zeon.

The mainstay WAS the Zaku II... both the Dom and Gelgoog were intended to replace it late in the war, and both outperform the RGM-79 in almost every respect. Both have more generator output, more engine thrust, higher overland top speeds and where documented also faster turn speeds. The only advantage the GM has is it has a longer sensor range than the Dom and better acceleration than either.

The Gelgoog is Zeon's Me 262... the latecomer with all the latest toys that outclassed the enemy's offerings, but was kept out of the fight by logistical problems until it was too late to make a significant difference.
I consider the Dom to be vastly inferior to the GM.
In a 3 dimensional battleground, agility is the most important spec to have, followed by the ability to damage your enemy and then defense.

Agility can be seen as speed in WWII era fighters, other aspects like acceleration and climb rate is also important.

In space, acceleration is what we should be looking at for agility, in which GM is much better in this spec, at 0.94g, it is not only better than Rick Dom's 0.67g by 40%, it even surpasses the Gelgoog A's 0.84g(Using the encyclopedia ver. 1.5 and Gundam Officials spec, the 79.9t thrust spec should be for B type.) by about 12%.
If you think of it in WWII fighter terms, a 500km/h plane will have a VERY hard time fighting a 700km/h plane, that is why most fighters keep on adding speed and they ditched the biplane designs which focus more in turning speeds. In this sense, the 0.96g of Ball is topped off all regular models sans the 0080 bunch(which are limited and very late in the OYW) and is better than Rick Dom by 43%.
In this sense, EFF has a much better sense of which spec is more important in space.
In space, even your manoeuvrability is determined mostly by your acceleartion, yes, you can change the direction you faced with AMBAC, but you always need thrust to change the direction you are moving.
We then come to the turning speed, the 1.6s of GM isn't high, but Rick Dom's 2.1s is simply pathetic even compared to Zaku II's 1.7s. Ball has a 2.2s figure, but at the same time it also has the highest reaction time over all MS because it uses a directed solid explosive for turning. In this category, the GM is better than the Rick Dom by 23.8%, where Ball only losing to Rick Dom by 5%. Gelgoog is better than GM by 6%. Which the single digit percentage can be easily thrown off by the advantage in acceleration.
Damaging your enemy requires fire power, which I have no doubt all of our listed models have. However, GM's beam weaponry is at least technologically more advanced, making it more compact and lighter than Rick Dom's bazooka and likely machine gun as well. This helps in various ways, including lower moment of inertia which helps the aiming speed. The Ball's 120mm Cannon is actually the Guntanks main weapon, which is actually pretty frightening in its ability to damage enemy units. It's rotation axis is also aligned with its body, unlike MS's hand held weapons, the moment of inertial should be lower.(easier to point at your target)
Getting to defense, Titanium has at least a 20% head off against steel at specific strength(strength-to-weight ratio), and Titanium alloy can get all the way up to 3~4 times. Since the GM's empty weight is only 15% lighter than Rick Dom, and a smaller unit, its defense is logically higher than Rick Dom's, likely loses to Gelgoog but when beam weapons come into play, I don't really see the defense to be that important.
Gelgoog should have better attack capabilities judging by its higher generator output(15%), by this I am actually giving it the benefit of doubt since its heavier mass(by 24%) and bigger form(by 17%) should need much more power in its AMBAC system, and the higher thrust(by 12%) should also require more power since they are using thermo-nuclear propulsion.
The motion module of Amuro in GM also helped a lot in combat, to a point where Char can mistaken it to Gundam and giving veterans of Zeon in Axis trouble as shown in CDA.

If we look at the production period, Rick Dom should be compared to Ball, while GM should be compared to Gelgoog. In both cases, I don't see Zeon units being superior than the EFF counter part, The Dom seemed to be better than Ball just because of its heavier and humanoid nature, but the actual spec isn't that great.
Gelgoog also isn't really that mass produced, you have about 200 units compared to GM's at least 330 regular A and B type (42+288) and various variants producing at around 50 each and adding up to at least 1000 units, with many of those with even higher spec. While the other mass produced variant Gelgoog Marine only has a 0.68g/1.6s which is more obviously inferior to GM, and the actual superior model B type(High mobility) only has 55 and judging from the empty to full weight difference, also traded off operational time for performance.

The Oggo isn't really that poor if given better maintained weapons, at least the spec isn't. The spec of it looks really like slapping 2 Balls together, it has roughly double mass, somewhat double thrust(giving it a 0.84g, capable of entering combat along with the Gelgoog), double weapons. Poor parts and malfunctioned weapons are the worst decisions made against it. While Ball's spec is at least decently matching up to Rick Dom's if not superior, the Oggo should still be enough to match with Rick Dom's if they are what they designed for.

I contribute the Rick Dom's poor spec to the problem of it not designed for space. It is just a modification of Dom, which is a superb ground unit but isn't really capable of space combat. It also takes up more space and I'd say more fitting in the attacker/Bomber group than the fighter group if compared to WWII planes.

Most of the dead end project of Zeon are the MAs, which had no hope of mass-producing (sans MA-05 which they did make a production run of a dozen or two) they may have contributed to the technological advancements but little in the war(where the advancement in technology didn't have time to reflect upon)

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by yazi88 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:42 pm

A regular GM's beam weaponry isn't that great, the beam spray gun is most effective in shorter range and it loses to the Rick Dom in range battle as the Giant Bazooka has longer range as well as packing a heavier punch so the titanium armor doesn't really matter in that regard and the Dom's heat saber is just as effective in close combat as a beam saber. Yes I agree that a GM is better than a Rick Dom in combat in terms of speed and maneuverability . But the Rick Dom II easily overcomes all of the shortcomings of the base unit and is one of the best Zeon units albeit very late in the OYW. Delaz Fleet version is quite bad though. And going back on my earlier post, the UMP really helps even the playing ground for Zeon MS to perform just as well or in most of the units cases, outperform Federation MS.

A ball is a complete joke unless it is used in bombardment and that's only in large numbers and I don't recall seeing much MS kills from a Ball aside from drowning land units in MS Igloo, its ammo count for its cannon is also a hindrance as it doesn't hold much ammo either and I'm guessing it has to be still or can't move while firing its cannon so its a sitting target if it tries to aim unless supported by other units.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by Seto Kaiba » Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:03 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:15 am
I consider the Dom to be vastly inferior to the GM.
As a point of order, the published specifications for the Mobile Suits in question do not support your assessment.

Based on that objective data, the MS-09B Dom is at least as capable a Mobile Suit as the RGM-79A and the MS-14A Gelgoog outperforms it in almost every respect. The GM's only consistent advantage is its maximum acceleration in space flight, which matters less than overall agility and turning time. Very few are the battles where a mobile suit's top speed was the deciding factor (the only one that leaps to mind was the EMS-10 Zudah's 2FAST2FURIOUS suicide run in MS IGLOO).

These aren't fighters we're talking about here.
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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by Dark Duel » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:17 pm

If we look at the production period, Rick Dom should be compared to Ball[...]The Dom seemed to be better than Ball just because of its heavier and humanoid nature, but the actual spec isn't that great.
That is definitely not a valid comparison IMO, because the Rick Dom is a space-modification of a high-performance ground combat mobile suit, while the Ball is basically a construction pod with a gun bolted to the top - in real-world terms, rather like comparing an M1A2 Abrams to a technical. One is a variant of a pre-existing combat vehicle, the other is a piece of junk with a gun slapped on it.
Did it have some utility/effectiveness in combat? Yes, if fielded in massive numbers and you discount the horrifically high rate of casualties in the battles they did appear in (Remember, they're referred to by pilots as "Mobile Coffins" for a reason).
Does that make it a superior mobile weapon? Hell no.
There's a reason why "mobile pods" didn't continue to see development/deployment in any significant capacity after the One-Year War.
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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:48 am

Dark Duel wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:17 pm
If we look at the production period, Rick Dom should be compared to Ball[...]The Dom seemed to be better than Ball just because of its heavier and humanoid nature, but the actual spec isn't that great.
That is definitely not a valid comparison IMO, because the Rick Dom is a space-modification of a high-performance ground combat mobile suit, while the Ball is basically a construction pod with a gun bolted to the top - in real-world terms, rather like comparing an M1A2 Abrams to a technical. One is a variant of a pre-existing combat vehicle, the other is a piece of junk with a gun slapped on it.
Did it have some utility/effectiveness in combat? Yes, if fielded in massive numbers and you discount the horrifically high rate of casualties in the battles they did appear in (Remember, they're referred to by pilots as "Mobile Coffins" for a reason).
Does that make it a superior mobile weapon? Hell no.
There's a reason why "mobile pods" didn't continue to see development/deployment in any significant capacity after the One-Year War.
The ball had more work done than just taking a space forklift and adding a gun mount.the SP-W03 Space Pod had a much larger window then the RB-79 ball. The Ball is more a quick conversion of an existing space craft for military use. it's closer to a "Commercial Utility Cargo Vehicle" in concept. http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/SP-W03_Space_Pod http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/RB-79_Ball

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:35 am

Dark Duel wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:17 pm
That is definitely not a valid comparison IMO, because the Rick Dom is a space-modification of a high-performance ground combat mobile suit, while the Ball is basically a construction pod with a gun bolted to the top - in real-world terms, rather like comparing an M1A2 Abrams to a technical. One is a variant of a pre-existing combat vehicle, the other is a piece of junk with a gun slapped on it.
Did it have some utility/effectiveness in combat? Yes, if fielded in massive numbers and you discount the horrifically high rate of casualties in the battles they did appear in (Remember, they're referred to by pilots as "Mobile Coffins" for a reason).
Does that make it a superior mobile weapon? Hell no.
There's a reason why "mobile pods" didn't continue to see development/deployment in any significant capacity after the One-Year War.
yazi88 wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:42 pm
A regular GM's beam weaponry isn't that great, the beam spray gun is most effective in shorter range and it loses to the Rick Dom in range battle as the Giant Bazooka has longer range as well as packing a heavier punch so the titanium armor doesn't really matter in that regard and the Dom's heat saber is just as effective in close combat as a beam saber. Yes I agree that a GM is better than a Rick Dom in combat in terms of speed and maneuverability . But the Rick Dom II easily overcomes all of the shortcomings of the base unit and is one of the best Zeon units albeit very late in the OYW. Delaz Fleet version is quite bad though. And going back on my earlier post, the UMP really helps even the playing ground for Zeon MS to perform just as well or in most of the units cases, outperform Federation MS.

A ball is a complete joke unless it is used in bombardment and that's only in large numbers and I don't recall seeing much MS kills from a Ball aside from drowning land units in MS Igloo, its ammo count for its cannon is also a hindrance as it doesn't hold much ammo either and I'm guessing it has to be still or can't move while firing its cannon so its a sitting target if it tries to aim unless supported by other units.
The GM also has a bazooka in its inventory of choice, and the Rick Dom's bazooka is a anti-ship weapon(with a shot to destroy a cruiser)
The Rick Dom II is a later product, not that much are produced and should be compared to later variants of the GM. Also, the Rick Dom II obviously falls into the short operational time in exchange of thrust, the post-OYW version almost halved(back to almost the same as Rick Dom's) its thrust to maintain operational time.
BTW, for the Rick Dom II, the heat sabre and the propellant tanks are incompatitable, so you can only equip either one.

The Ball is at least really capable in spec, and this is actually backed up by Katoki Hajime's statement in the MG Ball Ver. Ka manual where he stated the Ball is a mini MA.
It may look weak, but this is Mobile Suit Gundam after all, MS are supposed to be in the lime light on screen, in the settings, the Ball has decent combat record and the survivability rate isn't that bad either. The 1200 or so SP-W03 commissioned to created RB-79s and you still get somewhere around 800 left after the war and still operational in 0083 and later. Considering the Ball has a lesser resupply time and in the field for a longer period(since it doesn't have a Thermonuclear reactor and didn't need the 30 min cool down time before resupplying) This is doing much better than the 06s and 09s that were in the same battlefield of Solomon and ABQ.

The GM and Ball are not really that great, but they are decent in combat, and has a decent number. (At least around 1000+1200)
As oppose to Zeon where units with not really good spec are mass produced in thousands (06s in 8000 and 09s in 6000) but units with decent to better specs are only in hundreds or dozens.

With a 1/4 cost of the GM, the Ball's spec is simply amazing. It is a light tank having the ability to go against medium to heavy tanks, or at least a tank destroyer modified from an armoured car, with spec comparable to something like that, you really can't say the Rick Dom's spec isn't inferior.

I can understand the emotional side of not wanting to believe the Ball as a formidable opponent to MSs, but it is. It is not good in melee combat, but melee combat is just a small part of the war and most are fought at shooting range. The shows have to focus a lot more in melee because that is more dramatic and appealing, but the background showed much much more firing and hitting on screen than melee.

Gundam Officials admits Rick Dom being a modified unit from Dom, a ground combat unit, didn't fully utilize its potential and that is only fixed in the Rick Dom II.

The UMP isn't really that much of a problem solver since the problem at hand grew too much before the project started, and it almost stalled the development of Gelgoog, and the Gelgoog isn't fully compliant to the UMP, only the Jager and Marine did, but then the Marine is vastly weakened in spec and the Jager, although superior in all aspects, has very little produced and is more comparable to Gundam on the EFF side.
Seto Kaiba wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:03 pm
As a point of order, the published specifications for the Mobile Suits in question do not support your assessment.

Based on that objective data, the MS-09B Dom is at least as capable a Mobile Suit as the RGM-79A and the MS-14A Gelgoog outperforms it in almost every respect. The GM's only consistent advantage is its maximum acceleration in space flight, which matters less than overall agility and turning time. Very few are the battles where a mobile suit's top speed was the deciding factor (the only one that leaps to mind was the EMS-10 Zudah's 2FAST2FURIOUS suicide run in MS IGLOO).

These aren't fighters we're talking about here.
I am using the published specifications for the MSs in question, what do you mean by them not supporting my assessment?

Maximum acceleration matters most, your have to thrust to move in another direction, this is not aerial combat where you can use lift to turn.
Yes, these aren't fighters we're talking about, but the general idea is the same.
You still have physics running in this, inertia is still playing the signifigant roll here.

At least in reality top speed and acceleration are the dominating factor in air combat. The turning radius and angular acceleration matter less, a good example would be the helicopter is pretty much hopeless against any fighter even if you ban using guided missiles and only let them use machine guns. The helicopter has a turret and should be much better in aiming (AH-64's guidance system may even be better than F-14~22, at least in terms of number of targets it can lock-on to) but the difference in speed difference is just that dominating. It may have trouble fighting late-WWII fighters that is only around 50% faster than it.
In fact, WWII era attackers and bombers has machine gun turrets and can cover quite a lot of area, but still have trouble facing fighters that are not really that much faster than them.
Even if you look at overall agility, the GM is better in acceleartion by 12%, and losing in turning speed by 6%, overall speaking, the GM still has the upperhand in agility. The Gelgoog's 15% increase in power cannot compensate for the 24% increase in mass and 17% increase in size(thus moment of inertia) respectively. If you still think the Gelgoog has a greater overall agility, please provide your rationale by actual spec and calculation. A full simulation of moment of inertia of the MSs may get you somewhere, I admit I didn't run a full simulation of those, but I highly doubt that is the case given the Gelgoog having a bulkier form and moment of inertia increases as mass distribution gets further from the CoM.

I admit that the Dom is with dominating spec on ground, but the main reason is the hover system and EFF didn't really develop a true mass-production ground combat MS against it.
In OYW, the main MS to MS combat is performed in space, EFF didn't deploy major MS forces on ground combat.

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by yazi88 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:48 pm

Top speed might be a factor in a one on one dogfight or possibly hit and run tactics in skirmishes as shown in Thunderbolt, but in a wide battlefield like Solomon and ABQ it is not a reliable factor. You can use real life fighters as examples, but they really don't mean much comparing to MS combat where AMBAC and maneuverability are a factor in close combat while also dodging enemy fire in a chaotic battlefield especially in space combat. Space combat and aerial combat use completely different factors.

The Ball has shown to be slightly effective in numbers and even then it loses miserably to the Zaku before the GMs debuted. It was utilzed a little better with GMs in Solomon and ABQ battles as support fire but when a Zaku or any other MS comes to mid or close range, it lives up to its name as a mobile coffin. Long range units, especially with the Ball's cannon are not particularly useful especially in Space during the OYW, considering the fact that MS are far more mobile in space compared to Earth where Gravity limits movement. Close and mid range are the deciding factor in battles, as shown when the Zaku debuted in Operation British where the Federation's reliance on the Big Gun strategy was obliterated from close and mid range combat of the Zeon mobile suits. The Ball not show anything to rectify this.

As for the Gelgoog and GM specs, the only thing the GM has over it is a little better acceleration, lighter armor and vulcans. Gelgoog A has higher generator, actual beam rifle, longer sensor range and a bit faster turn speed compared to the base GM.

One last point about the Rick Dom II, its heat saber is compatible with the extra tanks. The model kits show it as well as the Gundam War card link below. The Delaz version has less performance because of lack of parts compared to the OWY version, its a downgraded version.

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/File:Ms09r2_GWar.jpg

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by DoleBananas » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:17 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:23 am
The fun thing here is that the WWII US M4 actually didn't have standardized parts, the parts manufactured by different factories in different states can be different enough so they don't fit into tanks made by another state.
It is just that the manufactured tanks and parts are so numerous, all the US needed to do is to make sure the parts manufactured by a state gets to ship to where they deploy that state's tanks.
GM Sniper II MG Manual excerpt saying the same thingShow
In the later stages of the One Year War, the Federation focused its industrial might on the production of mobile suits. This mobilization was directed by an unprecedented scheme that had prototypes and production plans developed in parallel. Viewed critically, it was a game of desperate catch-up, a stop-gap measure forced by pressing strategic needs, which led to a mishmash of specifications that differed from one factory to the next. Apart from basic expendables such as ammunition and fuel, compatibility between units, even among machines of the same basic model, was erratic at best.
I find comparing GMs to anything sort of folly because of this statement, since there are very clearly GMs that can match a Gouf for physical strength (ergo, they are on par with the Gundam) and there actually aren't any differences between the GM and Gundam's powerpack except that one's a (heavy) transforming fighter and one is a (lighter) block that fits there. So if you say a Gelgoog is better than a GM, I'll say... Or... Make a beam rifle noise? Pewww. Basically, to me: comparing a GM to anything is moot. That GM could be one V-fin short of the Gundam, or it could possibly be something of a joke. There is no standard to which you can judge it, because you can't even get a standard unit to be judged. The only fact there is which we can view is that these measures were good enough and that the Rick Dom and Gelgoog didn't win the war, for a myriad of factors, of which no doubt the GM's success is one.

...However, in my head, I like to think of it as JEFFPIATT's interpretation (it fits great in the theme of this thread). It sounds better for what is basically the combined industrial might and knowledge of the entire world's nations. The F-35 is practically built in the entire lower 48 states, with parts coming out of everywhere for... Reasons that are highly political, but regardless, every part still fits, and every part is still standard, and every F-35 is exactly like the one next to it except for wear and tear. I guess it's one of those things that's dated and doesn't really stand up today about Gundam, but (being able to) read the MG Sniper II's manual is both something that I'm highly grateful for, and something that I wince at, as the constant WWII allegories kill me.

And forgive me, probably not the best place or time to ask, but since I've brought it up, are those new translations in Gunpla-related stuffs I've been seeing complete?

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Re: Why do the bad guys usually have more different models than the good guys?

Post by JEFFPIATT » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:51 am

DoleBananas wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:17 am
MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:23 am
The fun thing here is that the WWII US M4 actually didn't have standardized parts, the parts manufactured by different factories in different states can be different enough so they don't fit into tanks made by another state.
It is just that the manufactured tanks and parts are so numerous, all the US needed to do is to make sure the parts manufactured by a state gets to ship to where they deploy that state's tanks.
GM Sniper II MG Manual excerpt saying the same thingShow
In the later stages of the One Year War, the Federation focused its industrial might on the production of mobile suits. This mobilization was directed by an unprecedented scheme that had prototypes and production plans developed in parallel. Viewed critically, it was a game of desperate catch-up, a stop-gap measure forced by pressing strategic needs, which led to a mishmash of specifications that differed from one factory to the next. Apart from basic expendables such as ammunition and fuel, compatibility between units, even among machines of the same basic model, was erratic at best.
I find comparing GMs to anything sort of folly because of this statement, since there are very clearly GMs that can match a Gouf for physical strength (ergo, they are on par with the Gundam) and there actually aren't any differences between the GM and Gundam's powerpack except that one's a (heavy) transforming fighter and one is a (lighter) block that fits there. So if you say a Gelgoog is better than a GM, I'll say... Or... Make a beam rifle noise? Pewww. Basically, to me: comparing a GM to anything is moot. That GM could be one V-fin short of the Gundam, or it could possibly be something of a joke. There is no standard to which you can judge it, because you can't even get a standard unit to be judged. The only fact there is which we can view is that these measures were good enough and that the Rick Dom and Gelgoog didn't win the war, for a myriad of factors, of which no doubt the GM's success is one.

...However, in my head, I like to think of it as JEFFPIATT's interpretation (it fits great in the theme of this thread). It sounds better for what is basically the combined industrial might and knowledge of the entire world's nations. The F-35 is practically built in the entire lower 48 states, with parts coming out of everywhere for... Reasons that are highly political, but regardless, every part still fits, and every part is still standard, and every F-35 is exactly like the one next to it except for wear and tear. I guess it's one of those things that's dated and doesn't really stand up today about Gundam, but (being able to) read the MG Sniper II's manual is both something that I'm highly grateful for, and something that I wince at, as the constant WWII allegories kill me.

And forgive me, probably not the best place or time to ask, but since I've brought it up, are those new translations in Gunpla-related stuffs I've been seeing complete?
At least according to current cannon the EFF had as the base GM model in production the A/B built on earth and Luna II had the [E] and it's production model the C type GM from those three models we got the various RGM and RGC units being built from those frames as bases the two worst offenders on non standard parts would be the Light Armor and Sniper Custom GM units witch are basically Field mods like the Ez8 was. the Sniper II was an attempt at building a standardized version of the Custom using the GM Command as a base as it was developed in the same "skunk works" the Command units came out of. I wind up think of the GM like the project that led to the Jeep that actually was two cars built to the same spec as both the Willys MB and the Ford GPW. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willys_MB The final model was an merger of the prototypes in to one unit. Ironically the GM II is more than likely a merger of the B and C GM units in to one line.

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