Hand contact and communication

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False Prophet
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Hand contact and communication

Post by False Prophet » Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:45 am

Zeta Gundam is the earliest work depicting that sometimes for a MS to contact with another MS or a spaceship, the pilot must put the make contact between the MS's hand and the surface of the other MS/ship. In this case, does the hand contact means that communication signal are directly transferred through the fingers, or is it simply a sign for the pilot that he is close enough for communication to pierce through the Minovsky interference?

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MythSearcher
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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:20 am

Direct transfer by vibration, likely have amplifying technology not specified, or simply by electronic signals(via the connector in the palm for weapons) which the receiving side can sense with its sensors under armour and decode.

I am not familiar with the physics of ascoustics, but I guess at least the idea is common in sci-fi. It seems like the authors think of the vibration of sound carries really well through metal, thus you can hear each other really well in space when you have little outside influence and dampening.
For example, in Miniskirt Space Pirates(The novel), they have to be really careful of what they speak when in a space station or colony since anyone can hear them using special devices(Given that they are probably at least a type II civilization vessel to a type III civilization.) and Gundam Unicorn had similar depiction of the ECOAS using the colony walls as a transmission device.

BTW, any depictions of being able to communicate via low frequency electron-magnetic waves(say, radio and microwaves) at a short distance from the dispersal centre of Minovsky particles is violating the settings. The closer to the centre the denser the particles are, and the harder to send signals through. The numbers are: 20km within the centre is basically a silent zone, you cannot even communicate with your own crafts and 40km from the centre you still get a lot of noise even with really powerful transmitters. Only laser transmission is possible.

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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by False Prophet » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:02 pm

If they really use vibration, then:

- How only a specific part of the ship receive the sound message instead of the entire ship?

- The sound quality appeared to be very good in the shows. If the vibration passes through solid material, shouldn not there been interference and such?

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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by Wingnut » Sun Jul 02, 2017 6:05 pm

Curious considering that there is one quite notable instance in the Gundam F91 movie where they specifically mention a contact link and the two parties communicating are a small civilian space boat launch and a guy in a normal suit. Also in the movie, two MS communicate via a simple thin wire which both instances would suggest some kind of electrical signal being transmitted and decoded.
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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by E08 » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:10 am

I will just leave the profile for contact link from the archived Gundam Official

An alternative means of short-range voice communication. When mobile suits come into direct physical contact with each other, or with other vehicles, sound can be transmitted between them via vibrations in their outer armor. A mobile suit can reach out with its manipulator to establish the link, and these sound vibrations can also be relayed through wires, including the wire-guns used by human workers. Unlike radio communications, conversations transmitted in this way are almost impossible to intercept.

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MythSearcher
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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:06 am

False Prophet wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:02 pm
If they really use vibration, then:

- How only a specific part of the ship receive the sound message instead of the entire ship?

- The sound quality appeared to be very good in the shows. If the vibration passes through solid material, shouldn not there been interference and such?
Like I said, they have amplifiers.
It is not the direct vibration they are sensing and emitting, but encoded and decoded by the machines' computer.

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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by SonicSP » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:16 pm

In 00 world, the Gundams also can communicate each other via analyzing the vibration in each other armors though it doesn't require physical contact. It's actually an old method in this world that has most been forgotten or obsolete but presumably because useful to Celestial Being due to GN interference.

What data is being transferred were not specified though since they have various communication methods likely used for backups. I think the MG Exia even noted that Exia links with Veda using quantum communications through a part of its head, which I assume is likely more long range point to point kind of thing.

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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by Seto Kaiba » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:54 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:06 am
Like I said, they have amplifiers.
It is not the direct vibration they are sensing and emitting, but encoded and decoded by the machines' computer.
I dunno... I'd imagine the differences in material rigidity/elasticity, contact surface, etc. would tend to make transmitting an analog waveform easier to differentiate from structural vibrations caused by onboard systems (e.g. condensers, the air circulation system, thrusters and engines) and other outside factors like particle strikes on the hull.

There wouldn't be a need for encryption in a contact link, so at most simple binary encoding and a high amplitude for the actual vibrations would be all they need.
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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:40 am

Seto Kaiba wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:54 am
MythSearcher wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 10:06 am
Like I said, they have amplifiers.
It is not the direct vibration they are sensing and emitting, but encoded and decoded by the machines' computer.
I dunno... I'd imagine the differences in material rigidity/elasticity, contact surface, etc. would tend to make transmitting an analog waveform easier to differentiate from structural vibrations caused by onboard systems (e.g. condensers, the air circulation system, thrusters and engines) and other outside factors like particle strikes on the hull.

There wouldn't be a need for encryption in a contact link, so at most simple binary encoding and a high amplitude for the actual vibrations would be all they need.
Well, for one, the structure will be likely highly damped so the vibrations cannot directly transmit to the surface normally. A MS is not a block of solid, and different parts transmit vibrations at different speeds, and will cause a lot of unwanted interference.
Encoding isn't for encryption but for higher accuracy transmission, digital is better in relaying simple messages.

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DoleBananas
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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by DoleBananas » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:20 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sun Jul 02, 2017 4:45 am
Zeta Gundam is the earliest work depicting that sometimes for a MS to contact with another MS or a spaceship, the pilot must put the make contact between the MS's hand and the surface of the other MS/ship. In this case, does the hand contact means that communication signal are directly transferred through the fingers, or is it simply a sign for the pilot that he is close enough for communication to pierce through the Minovsky interference?
A weak contribution for the time I've spent lurking, but (it might be so I can ask a question at the end!):

MythSearcher's posts cover everything you need to know, except that this does appear in the original animation and movie, as well as novel. As far as the animation goes, this particular scene covers it except in the form of suit-to-ship transmissions - I just don't know the exact episode Encounters in Space drew from to make this opening (I realize it's not the actual animation, this is just my quickest reference to the scene!). The original novel gives a description, but if my memory of Zeta is correct, I believe Zeta provides our first in show explanation of this.

I don't have the original novel anymore, I gave it away unfortunately, but I believe it's originally described as vibrations being transmitted through the suit from its skin - possibly in the form of an electronic signal but I remember vibrations being used in the descriptions of it. In Thunderbolt, we get to see this as a full data-link system - and that bit is animated now, so, check Ep. 4 if you want to see that in action. I do believe Thunderbolt's interpretation of this is the best way to think of it. I would think that if the novel was written five or maybe even ten years later, it would be the written equivalent of what Thunderbolt shows even if I believe it was originally only described as a tool for communication purposes.

In any situation where it is possible, this is the preferred method of communication between mobile suit pilots as long as they're not in direct combat or cannot physically reach each other, otherwise, laser communication is the default. On a slightly related note, I do not believe that normal suits have any laser communication equipment, and unlike mobile suits, most normal suits have to bonk heads.

A semi-related question that pertains slightly more to Minovsky physics: is it possible for laser communication to degrade in a Minovsky particle environment? Everything that's been said about its capability to warp light makes me question how reliable laser communication would be and if their might be limitations that would need to be considered beyond line of sight and the ability to detect what you're sending the information to.

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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by Seto Kaiba » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:20 pm

DoleBananas wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:20 pm
A semi-related question that pertains slightly more to Minovsky physics: is it possible for laser communication to degrade in a Minovsky particle environment? Everything that's been said about its capability to warp light makes me question how reliable laser communication would be and if their might be limitations that would need to be considered beyond line of sight and the ability to detect what you're sending the information to.
Based on what I've read on the subject of Minovsky physics and the more unhelpful properties of I-fields, the answer to your question is "Yes", with a "but" on the end.

The interference effects of the natural I-field lattices formed by Minovsky particles span most of the electromagnetic spectrum, though the impacted frequency bands depends mostly upon how tight the I-field lattices are. An area that has a low Minovsky particle density might only see problems with the lower radio frequency bands with a wavelength of a meter or so. At combat density, the I-field lattices formed are tight enough to interfere with wavelengths down to the micrometer, rendering radio and radar useless over all but the shortest of ranges and fogging visible and even infrared light. At reactor densities the fields are tight enough to out-and-out block infrared and even interfere with ionizing radiation.

The limiting factor would be the sensitivity of the receiver, more than anything. As long as the fogging effect of the I-fields isn't so severe that it degrades the beam to the point that the receiver can no longer differentiate a rising or falling edge in the laser pulses, a laser system should be viable over medium to long distances even in heavy Minovsky particle saturations.
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DoleBananas
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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by DoleBananas » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:17 am

Oh, I see. I was under the interpretation that warping of light happened at "heavy" interference levels, which I assumed were greater than combat density. Since the primary constraint for the laser system is the sensor's sensitivity, which, reasonably should be pretty good in most situations, I would guess then that the constraint is then definitely whether or not the unit which would be receiving the transmission can be detected or not, in order to aim the transmission in its direction.

Also, after thinking on it more, I believe my statement regarding normal suits was incorrect: whether or not a normal suit requires its user to touch helmets with another in order to communicate seems more a function of dramatic effect, unfortunately. After A Baoa Qu settles down, I would assume the White Base crew on the launches are communicating entirely using the contact system as they would have to be, and in large part, the only surface some of them are contacting the launch with is their feet, while the specific case of head-bonking I was referring to is in 0080, so maybe their civilian normals or something to that effect, but I believe there are other situations in which it seems helmet contact is preferred, I just couldn't think of where and when I saw them.

Isn't it called skin-contact or something...? I forget the specific name used to reference the technology.

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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:22 am

DoleBananas wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:17 am
Oh, I see. I was under the interpretation that warping of light happened at "heavy" interference levels, which I assumed were greater than combat density. Since the primary constraint for the laser system is the sensor's sensitivity, which, reasonably should be pretty good in most situations, I would guess then that the constraint is then definitely whether or not the unit which would be receiving the transmission can be detected or not, in order to aim the transmission in its direction.

Also, after thinking on it more, I believe my statement regarding normal suits was incorrect: whether or not a normal suit requires its user to touch helmets with another in order to communicate seems more a function of dramatic effect, unfortunately. After A Baoa Qu settles down, I would assume the White Base crew on the launches are communicating entirely using the contact system as they would have to be, and in large part, the only surface some of them are contacting the launch with is their feet, while the specific case of head-bonking I was referring to is in 0080, so maybe their civilian normals or something to that effect, but I believe there are other situations in which it seems helmet contact is preferred, I just couldn't think of where and when I saw them.

Isn't it called skin-contact or something...? I forget the specific name used to reference the technology.
I'd say the head bonk is a good way to just use the analogue vibration directly.
Unlike the MS case, the person in the normal suit is directly behind the helmet, thus you don't get a lot of interference from other systems(unless your suit gives you a lot of noise)
The actual sound you hear might be different from what we are hearing in air, but messages should transmit without much problem as long as you speak loud enough.(I assume you don't really need to shout.)

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Re: Hand contact and communication

Post by Dark Duel » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:21 pm

DoleBananas wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:17 am
Isn't it called skin-contact or something...? I forget the specific name used to reference the technology.
Birgit refers to it as "a contact link" at least once in Gundam F91.
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