Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

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Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:00 pm

While browsing Weissritter's Anaheim Journal blog, I noticed an interesting image in his article about the MS-14JG pilot manual:

https://anaheimjournal.blogspot.mx/2009 ... lgoog.html

The image in question depicts a MS-14JG engaging a RGM-79GS in space. The Gelgoog Jager is carrying its trademark beam machine gun... and what looks like a Galbaldy Beta's shield:

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4w-fbrQEkFE/ ... gfight.jpg

For those not familiar with this theory, Mark posted his theory on how the MS-14JG and the MS-17B could likely be sibling machines built under the United Maintenance Plan.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12256

I should point out that it's heavily hinted that the MS-17B and the EF's RMS-117 are externally identical, with the differences being mainly internal, such as the linear seat:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16641#p376282

Anyway, since the image in questions shows a MS-14JG with the same shield of the MS-17B, it would seem to provide further evidence that these two machines are related and likely were meant to use be able to use each other's equipment. By the way, despite seeming to be more advanced, the MS-14JG's beam machine gun is supposed to be a more primitive beam weapon on the same line as the Rick Dom's beam bazooka:

viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17015&start=20#p384437

Therefore, it's not surprising that the MS-17B/RMS-117 switched to a more efficient E-cap based beam rifle like the Gelgoog's once it became available.

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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by False Prophet » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:35 am

The Galbady Alpha and the Gelgoog competed to become Zeon's next front-line MS, right? So how did data regarding each of these machine was leaked and influenced their opponents?
Last edited by False Prophet on Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by False Prophet » Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:35 am

That things about beam rifles makes me want to ask this question: When did Zeon begin to field beam rifles which are powered by E-Pacs? I haven't got time to check back the original series, but Char's Gelgoog showed up around November, right?

And it also begs this question: spin-off manga taking place after the OYW and before Zeta (Char's Deleted Affair for example) depict the Beam Rifles with their own independent reactor as a more powerful alternative to Beam Rifle which uses E-Pacs. But in different series they used different model of these rifles, all the while the Beam Bazooka carried by the Rick Dom has been field-tested successfully in several occasions. Why did they develop a new weapon when the solution is already there?

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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by Kuruni » Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:50 am

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:35 am
That things about beam rifles makes me want to ask this question: When did Zeon begin to field beam rifles which are powered by E-Pacs? I haven't got time to check back the original series, but Char's Gelgoog showed up around November, right?
Never. Zeon never develope E-Pac-powered beam rifle, unless you include Neo Zeon.
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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:24 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:35 am
The Galbady Alpha and the Gelgoog competed to become Zeon's next front-line MS, right? So how did data regarding each of these machine was leaked and influenced their opponents?
No, the Gyan and Gelgoog were the ones competing, and the Gelgoog won. The Galbaldy Alpha is said to be the result of producing Gelgoog's on Gyan production lines, which are no longer going to mass produce Gyans. However, even before that Zeon had begun enforcing the UMP in order to standardize their MS development, and as such research teams were supposedly forced to share information with their rival companies, best resulting example being the MS-09R2 and MS-14JG which were designed to share components.
False Prophet wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:35 am
That things about beam rifles makes me want to ask this question: When did Zeon begin to field beam rifles which are powered by E-Pacs? I haven't got time to check back the original series, but Char's Gelgoog showed up around November, right?
For now, I will assume you actually meant E-Caps: Mark's timeline, which included several details such as rollout dates for the Gelgoog and Zeon's beam weapons, is currently unavailable, but this other comprehensive timeline puts White Base's arrival at Texas colony on December 21st:

http://www.dyarstraights.com/gundam-tes ... -timeline/
False Prophet wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 8:35 am
And it also begs this question: spin-off manga taking place after the OYW and before Zeta (Char's Deleted Affair for example) depict the Beam Rifles with their own independent reactor as a more powerful alternative to Beam Rifle which uses E-Pacs. But in different series they used different model of these rifles, all the while the Beam Bazooka carried by the Rick Dom has been field-tested successfully in several occasions. Why did they develop a new weapon when the solution is already there?
There are many problems with Zeon's early beam weapons which don't use E-caps:

-Cost: IIRC it's said that one of the more expensive components of a MS is its generator. Assuming its indeed the case, both MS powering up beam weapons with their own generator, as well as weapons equipped with an auxiliary generator for powering them up should be expensive to produce, let alone mass produce.

-Size: Case in point, the Gelgoog's E-Cap based beam rifles are much more compact than any of their pre E-Cap cousins, such as the Rick Dom's beam bazooka. Same applies to the MS-05L's and to MS-14C's cannon backpacks, which have external generators for powering up their corresponding beam weapons.

-Fire rate: an E-Cap based weapon can theoretically keep the same firing rate until it's drained, while one without an E-Cap could have diminishing fire-rate depending on whether it has a powerful enough generator to provide enough energy for all the necessary step to quickly compress more particles before firing them. The downside is that having one such generator could likely mean that the unit in questions is either expensive, heavy, or possibly even both, in the case of the Zock:
toysdream wrote:
Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:35 pm
As for the Zock, the HG-UC kit manual says that its mega particle cannons are "capable of rapid fire comparable to an energy cap system," which suggests it's not E-cap based but makes up for it with sheer power output.
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=17015&start=20#p384437

-Also, a large energy drain could theoretically affect the functions of the MS itself if priority was given to recharging the beam weapon. Best example of that is the ZZ Gundam, which undergoes a power down cycle after using its High Mega Cannon, resulting in a temporary decrease of overall performance.
Kuruni wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:50 am
Never. Zeon never develope E-Pac-powered beam rifle, unless you include Neo Zeon.
That doesn't seem to be the case:
toysdream wrote:
Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:35 pm
In the case of Cima's Gelgoog, the model sheet notes explain that the drum is indeed an e-pac; it connects directly to a condenser (the box in front of the trigger) where, presumably, the stored particles are compressed into mega particles.
It's up to speculation when and how the weapon itself came to be though.

That being said, I'm also inclined to think that the MS-11 Act Zaku's beam rifle, which seems to be of the same type used by the Hizack and uses E-Pacs, do might have been developed by Zeon, after some depictions of the MS-11 in Zeon colors (different from the EF's version) also show it with this same weapon, most notably the Zeonography figure.

Being fair, this might have not even happened during the OYW: according to Mark, Pezun likely fell until mid U.C. 0081, so development could have continued well past the end of the conflict. On the other hand, less canon info suggests that Mallet's Sanguine custom MS-11 already had one such beam rifle by the end of the OYW, so it might have been developed much earlier:

https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gu ... 0717203818

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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by Kuruni » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:58 am

Oh my...completely forgot about MS-X stuff. But the bit about Cima's Gelgoog is new to me, thank you very much.
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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by False Prophet » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:53 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:24 pm
No, the Gyan and Gelgoog were the ones competing, and the Gelgoog won. The Galbaldy Alpha is said to be the result of producing Gelgoog's on Gyan production lines, which are no longer going to mass produce Gyans. However, even before that Zeon had begun enforcing the UMP in order to standardize their MS development, and as such research teams were supposedly forced to share information with their rival companies, best resulting example being the MS-09R2 and MS-14JG which were designed to share components.
Wait? So is there any part commonality between the Galbady Alpha and the Gyan? And secondly, is Pezun not really a manufacturer but instead a research lab? For all of their MS that they have designed and I could recall are prototype: Galbaldy Alpha, Gasshia. Even the Gyan (or at least the Gyan Eos and the Gyan High Mobility Type) is manufactured in limited number by Zimmad.
Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:24 pm
There are many problems with Zeon's early beam weapons which don't use E-caps:

-Cost: IIRC it's said that one of the more expensive components of a MS is its generator. Assuming its indeed the case, both MS powering up beam weapons with their own generator, as well as weapons equipped with an auxiliary generator for powering them up should be expensive to produce, let alone mass produce.

-Size: Case in point, the Gelgoog's E-Cap based beam rifles are much more compact than any of their pre E-Cap cousins, such as the Rick Dom's beam bazooka. Same applies to the MS-05L's and to MS-14C's cannon backpacks, which have external generators for powering up their corresponding beam weapons.

-Fire rate: an E-Cap based weapon can theoretically keep the same firing rate until it's drained, while one without an E-Cap could have diminishing fire-rate depending on whether it has a powerful enough generator to provide enough energy for all the necessary step to quickly compress more particles before firing them. The downside is that having one such generator could likely mean that the unit in questions is either expensive, heavy, or possibly even both, in the case of the Zock:
My point exactly. Why did they continue to use beam weapon with dedicated generator even when: (A) There are E-Pacs, and (2) They could just use the Dom's Beam Bazooka.

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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:39 am

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:53 am

Wait? So is there any part commonality between the Galbady Alpha and the Gyan? And secondly, is Pezun not really a manufacturer but instead a research lab? For all of their MS that they have designed and I could recall are prototype: Galbaldy Alpha, Gasshia. Even the Gyan (or at least the Gyan Eos and the Gyan High Mobility Type) is manufactured in limited number by Zimmad.

My point exactly. Why did they continue to use beam weapon with dedicated generator even when: (A) There are E-Pacs, and (2) They could just use the Dom's Beam Bazooka.
the Galbady Alpha was early attempt to make one MS that combined the Gelgoog and Gyan tech before the UMP was set up. Pezun is Zeon's equivalent to Groom Lake it's a development and testing base.

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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:01 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:53 am
Wait? So is there any part commonality between the Galbady Alpha and the Gyan? And secondly, is Pezun not really a manufacturer but instead a research lab? For all of their MS that they have designed and I could recall are prototype: Galbaldy Alpha, Gasshia. Even the Gyan (or at least the Gyan Eos and the Gyan High Mobility Type) is manufactured in limited number by Zimmad.
It might be hard to see at first, but you can definitely see some remaining traits of the Gyan in the Galbaldy Alpha, such as the round shoulders, the feet or the dual cylinder backpack.

As for Pezun, according to the 1st Edition MS encyclopedia most of the Pezun units were being originally developed at A Baoa Qu, but after Solomon's fall, the research teams and prototypes were relocated to Side 3, or more specifically the Pezun asteroid.

As for the Gyan variants, according to MSV-R, Kycillia had both Zeonic and Zimmad modify the two units that became Gyan Eos, resulting in the unit replacing the YMS-15 backpack with that of a MS-14B. On a related note, Analog recently introduced the MS-17R, basically a MS-17 that incorporates components of a MS-14BR, namely the extra leg thrusters.

I should also point out that the Gyan variants from Gihren’s Greed are not canon, as they were supposed to be the result of IF scenarios in which the Gyan was chosen instead of the Gelgoog as Zeon’s new mainstay mass production MS. In other words, if in the game you chose to develop the Gyan, then the MS-14B and other Gelgoog variants were never developed.
False Prophet wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:53 am
My point exactly. Why did they continue to use beam weapon with dedicated generator even when: (A) There are E-Pacs, and (2) They could just use the Dom's Beam Bazooka.
It ultimately depends on your resources and technological level:

-By CCA, the Jegan and Geara Dogas both use E-Pac weapons, so it eventually becomes the norm (at least for a while).

-The GM II/Nemo/GM III line all use the beam rifle from the GM II and all have a rather low output generator (between 1,518-1,620 kW). We know that the Nemo did so as a cost reduction measure, and we should probably assume it’s the same for the GM III.

-The MS-09’s beam bazooka was likely not viable for mass production due to cost and size. One one hand, it’s assumed that the generator of a MS is one of its most (if not the most) expensive components. For reference, the external generator of a MS-05L is supposed to have an output of 700 kW solely for powering up its beam rifle. The MS-05L itself has a 899 kW generator for powering up the MS itself. in other words, weapons like this are likely quite expensive since they require exclusive generators that rival even the output of a generator meant to power up an entire MS.

-Axis/1st Neo Zeon seems to have plenty of resources, eventually allowing to mass produce machines like the TMS Gaza D, which has higher generator output than even the Zeta Gundam (2,140 kW VS 2,020 kW), and the AMX-014 Doven Wolf, which has a 5,250 kW generator, much higher than many prototype MS, even from later periods.

More importantly, let’s not forget that weapons receiving direct generator feed don’t have the main limitation of E-Caps and E-Pacs: limited energy supply in the long run. Even E-Pacs are limited by the number you can carry, but a weapon powered directly by a generator could be continually fired for as long as the weapon itself (particularly the barrel) can withstand it. Best example is the MS-05L from the Unicorn, which is literally carrying spare barrels since its backpack generator can provide enough energy to continually fire its weapon.

Food for thought: a) the MS-14A Gelgoog is said to have been mainly produced at Granada, Side 3 and A Baoa Qu. b) Zimmad's main production lines are located at Side 3, while Zeonic's are said to be located at Granada.

Could Pezun might have been not just another production site, but rather Zimmad's main production site within Side 3?That could justify why they had prepared the facilities for mass producing the Gyan, Zimmad's proposal for Zeon's new mainstay MS, which later had to be modified and switched for the producing the Galbaldy Alpha, said to be a Gelgoog built on Gyan production lines.

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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by False Prophet » Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:39 am

Talking about the iasting impact of Zeon MS, do you think that the Pezun Dowadge made any impact on latter models? I try to see if there is anything similar between it and the Dreissen, but could find none.

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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by krullnar » Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:02 pm

Question I'm everyone uses the e-pac/e-cap as interchangeable but as far as I was aware they were in fact two separate iterations of the technology. One proceeding the other or I'm totally wrong.
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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by Wingnut » Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:40 pm

krullnar wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:02 pm
Question I'm everyone uses the e-pac/e-cap as interchangeable but as far as I was aware they were in fact two separate iterations of the technology. One proceeding the other or I'm totally wrong.
It is indeed two different things, but many people tend to either forget which is which or some other reason half the time when talking about how a beam rifle is powered.
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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by krullnar » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:06 am

Also wasn't the epac tech used by gp01 "forgotten" and everyone went back to ecaps. Minus whatever rx0 uses for the beam magnum.
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Re: Another Nod At The MS-14JG & RMS-117(MS-17B) Siblings

Post by E08 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:38 am

krullnar wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:06 am
Minus whatever rx0 uses for the beam magnum.
The RG model kit manual calls it a magazine with 5 connected E-pacs.

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