Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

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Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by False Prophet » Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:52 am

So, me and my friend are making plan for a Kickstarter for our Wargame, which center around mecha combat. We intend for our mech designs pay homage to the most memorable Japanese mecha designs, with each faction represent a series (for example, the main human faction represents Gundam, and the main alien faction represent Evangelion/Zone of the Enders). So, can you guys tell me which anime series considered by fans to have "cornerstone" mecha designs?

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by AGF-Antoine » Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:06 am

I am not much into the Super Robot lore, but I do have some ideas.

For Real Robot I would say Macross/Robotech, Full Metal Panic!, VOTOMS and Code Geass are mandatory.
For Super you can't ignore the Brave series, as much as I personally dislike it.

Super Robot Wars does a nice job of combining the different streams in mecha.

For the record, I named series that are still doing strong and got quite some sequels.


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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:14 am

False Prophet wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:52 am
So, me and my friend are making plan for a Kickstarter for our Wargame, which center around mecha combat. We intend for our mech designs pay homage to the most memorable Japanese mecha designs, with each faction represent a series (for example, the main human faction represents Gundam, and the main alien faction represent Evangelion/Zone of the Enders). So, can you guys tell me which anime series considered by fans to have "cornerstone" mecha designs?
First you go for the big three in SRW games.
Mazinger Z, Getter Robo and Gundam.

Mazinger Z is usually viewed as the first Super Robot anime. (Tetsujin 28 is the first giant robot anime but its remote controled nature seems to be making it fall out of the mainstream of piloted robots)
Getter Robo is the first combination super robot that sets quite a lot of precedants in similar shows.
Gundam is the first Real Robot anime and is considered to be the second turning point of Japanese anime.(First is Space Battleship Yamato and Third is Evengelion)

Tetsujin 28 is also rather famous, you can say that it is also one of the corner stones.

Macross is the real robot show that followed Gundam and received general success, it is also the corner stone for transforming robots.

Obviously Evengelion, as the third turning point of Japanese anime, should be a cornerstone.
Nadesico, the otaku anime that comes after Evangelion cannot be missed.

The real robot anime boom that gave us Dangram, Votoms and well, just look at the mahq database for those.

Going after the SRW games might be a good idea but a fun thing is that quite some robot anime were only made famous by SRW and was pretty badly received as an anime itself. Examples are Ideon, Aura Battler Dunbine, L-Gaim, Walker Machine Xanbungle.

Gunbuster, the real robot show with super robot powers.

Outside the SRW series, little less known to westerners are the Mashin Hero Wataru, Granzort and Lamune series (Starting with the NG Knight Lamune & 40) are comedy robot series.

Five Star Story, only has 1 movie mainly due to the impossiblity of animators being able to draw any more of the detailed designs. The manga itself is pretty well received in Japan. L-Gaim was kinda set in the same universe but not really related.
Escaflowne, a more fantasy setting super robot.
Patlabor is also a cornerstone where it is a clear cut from war machines to law enforcement.
Gasaraki, show that ruined its own good setting by having too extreme opposite ends of attributes of military show and Japanese tradition and fantasy in it. And the fact that it has a rather bad execution of Evangelion like ending when the number of viewers dropped to a minimum.
Full Metal Panic is a more modern real robot show.
Gurren Lagan, typical Gainax show.

The Braves series and the Eldran series are not so much of a cornerstone but more like designed for the market type series, except for King of Braves GaoGaigar, which is usually considered to be created more independent of the influence of the mainstream media thinking anime is for children.(And it was made after Evangelion, which ended the dark ages of anime)

Oh, and don't forget Keroro, it also has heavy use of robots.

Since I don't really like Super robot shows, I skipped quite a few of those.

The Japanese wikipedia catelogues Sunrise Robot Anime, Giant Robot Anime, Production Reed robot anime, Toei Robot anime pages are good sources.

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by AGF-Antoine » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:55 am

Thought of some others.

If you also want to include sentient, then Transformers is also quite cornerstone.

I personally also like the units from Muv-Luv a lot, although not sure if you could call it cornerstone.

Also not cornerstone at all, I really like the Jinki:Extend mecha, especially Moribito 02.
Enjoyed Godannar a lot as well, since it poked fun at Super Robot tropes.


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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by False Prophet » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:01 pm

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:14 am
False Prophet wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:52 am
So, me and my friend are making plan for a Kickstarter for our Wargame, which center around mecha combat. We intend for our mech designs pay homage to the most memorable Japanese mecha designs, with each faction represent a series (for example, the main human faction represents Gundam, and the main alien faction represent Evangelion/Zone of the Enders). So, can you guys tell me which anime series considered by fans to have "cornerstone" mecha designs?
First you go for the big three in SRW games.
Mazinger Z, Getter Robo and Gundam.

Mazinger Z is usually viewed as the first Super Robot anime. (Tetsujin 28 is the first giant robot anime but its remote controled nature seems to be making it fall out of the mainstream of piloted robots)
Getter Robo is the first combination super robot that sets quite a lot of precedants in similar shows.
Gundam is the first Real Robot anime and is considered to be the second turning point of Japanese anime.(First is Space Battleship Yamato and Third is Evengelion)

Tetsujin 28 is also rather famous, you can say that it is also one of the corner stones.

Macross is the real robot show that followed Gundam and received general success, it is also the corner stone for transforming robots.

Obviously Evengelion, as the third turning point of Japanese anime, should be a cornerstone.
Nadesico, the otaku anime that comes after Evangelion cannot be missed.

The real robot anime boom that gave us Dangram, Votoms and well, just look at the mahq database for those.

Going after the SRW games might be a good idea but a fun thing is that quite some robot anime were only made famous by SRW and was pretty badly received as an anime itself. Examples are Ideon, Aura Battler Dunbine, L-Gaim, Walker Machine Xanbungle.

Gunbuster, the real robot show with super robot powers.

Outside the SRW series, little less known to westerners are the Mashin Hero Wataru, Granzort and Lamune series (Starting with the NG Knight Lamune & 40) are comedy robot series.

Five Star Story, only has 1 movie mainly due to the impossiblity of animators being able to draw any more of the detailed designs. The manga itself is pretty well received in Japan. L-Gaim was kinda set in the same universe but not really related.
Escaflowne, a more fantasy setting super robot.
Patlabor is also a cornerstone where it is a clear cut from war machines to law enforcement.
Gasaraki, show that ruined its own good setting by having too extreme opposite ends of attributes of military show and Japanese tradition and fantasy in it. And the fact that it has a rather bad execution of Evangelion like ending when the number of viewers dropped to a minimum.
Full Metal Panic is a more modern real robot show.
Gurren Lagan, typical Gainax show.

The Braves series and the Eldran series are not so much of a cornerstone but more like designed for the market type series, except for King of Braves GaoGaigar, which is usually considered to be created more independent of the influence of the mainstream media thinking anime is for children.(And it was made after Evangelion, which ended the dark ages of anime)

Oh, and don't forget Keroro, it also has heavy use of robots.

Since I don't really like Super robot shows, I skipped quite a few of those.

The Japanese wikipedia catelogues Sunrise Robot Anime, Giant Robot Anime, Production Reed robot anime, Toei Robot anime pages are good sources.
Thanks! This will help a lot!

However, there is this little roadblock which I meet: The nature of a competitive wargame demands that each faction much be distinctive from each other but still be able to beat each other. And putting and OP Super Robot in the middle of a battle between Real Robots surely violate that rule.

So do you have any idea to explain how the existent of an OP Super Robot which is not actually that OP and still can be produced by a faction which mainly produce Real Robots? I actually have plans for the really, really powerful Super Robots (think of Mazinger ZERO and Getter Emperor) to be the divine deities of our team's setting, but what about things like GaoGaiGar or Captain Earth?

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by Kuruni » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:47 pm

Instead of listing all, here're few "iconic" that I can think of...

Virtual On It's hard to tell, but they're unique style about them. If you've to pick the most iconic of them, it would be Temjin and Fei-Yen. While we're on subject of video games, throw Metal Gear Rex (Metal gear Solid), Nine-Ball (Armored Core), and Zenith (Front Mission) in there too.

The first toku mech AFAIK, is remote controled Giant Robo (1967), follow by piloted Red Baron (1973). Although people seem to include Daimajin (1966) when they talk about robot show, even if he's an animate giant statue. There're also Daitetsujin 17 in 1977 and Leopardon from Spider Man in 1978. Then Super Sentai adopt it with Battle Fever Robo (Battle Fever J - 1979) although I think the next, Daidenjin (Denshi Sentai Denjiman), is more memorable. (hint, Nadesico has tribute to both Daitetsujin and Daimajin, with implication that there should be Daidenjin too) Heck, even if I would only list iconic designs from Super Sentai seris, it would be too long. So look at these for yourself. Just make sure you don't miss Flash King and Daizyujin.

In 1980, Takara launch Diaclone toyline. The most iconic among them is without doubt the Battle Convoy, better known by his name in American adaption series, Optimus Prime (his nemesis is just a small handgun robot in original series, so he doesn't count).

Back to toku, Metal Hero series start with Dol from Space Sheriff Gavan. They keep using giant mech from time to time, although I think the most famous is likely to be Daileon (Kyojuu Tokusou Juspion).

And while the series as whole don't have many mecha, King Dark from Kamen Rider X is very much an iconic mech. Side Basshar from Kamen Rider 555 is pretty well known too. For Ultra Series, you just can't miss King Joe from Ultraseven. I don't have to mention Mecha Godzilla and Mecha King Ghidorah, right?
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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:22 am

False Prophet wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:01 pm

Thanks! This will help a lot!

However, there is this little roadblock which I meet: The nature of a competitive wargame demands that each faction much be distinctive from each other but still be able to beat each other. And putting and OP Super Robot in the middle of a battle between Real Robots surely violate that rule.

So do you have any idea to explain how the existent of an OP Super Robot which is not actually that OP and still can be produced by a faction which mainly produce Real Robots? I actually have plans for the really, really powerful Super Robots (think of Mazinger ZERO and Getter Emperor) to be the divine deities of our team's setting, but what about things like GaoGaiGar or Captain Earth?
Idea is simple.
Go for the Mass-production VS tailor made route.
This is basically how SRW rationalize their world. (The OG story)

But before going into detail, you may get some ideas from how SRW balance their game.
In the older days, Real VS Super in SRW isn't really the genre of Real Robots and Super Robots we talked about today.
The terms was first used in the 4th installation, giving a loose definition for the robots.
You can choose your main character to be Real Type or Super Type, that will influence the story route and stats of the character. The super route you get to be with more of the Super robot genre robots like Mazinger, Getter, etc. While in the real route you get to be with, well, obvious enough, the Real robot genre robots like Gundam, L-Gaim, etc.
The Super robots are usually better in defense and hit point, with more powerful moves(which costs you much energy, EN) and shorter ranges, while Real robots are usually more agile(hard to hit, aims better and moves faster), have longer range. With some exceptions like Getter 2, which is an agile unit.
The spirit command of the pilots are also quite fitting with their relevant mecha.
Super Robot pilots having commands like hot blood(doubling the damage on your next attack by this robot), iron wall(Doubling the defense stat for a turn) which excels in rushing inside the enemy, tank off most enemy hits and use the finish move to kill off the big boss. You'd be hating the game if you try to use them to get rid of the small flies since their hit rate is pathetic. But reducing their attack damage to the lowest possible number, 10, basically renders those to be useless.
Real robots pilots have commands that helps in evasion(Hirameki, reduces enemy hit rate to 0% for the next combat; concentrate, increase your own hit rate and reduce enemy hit rates by 30% for the turn) they usually get a lower level boost of moving twice in a turn while some, like Amuro, gets a high level spirit command "Spirit" the triples next damage dealt. Newtype and Aura Battlers(Dubine) also get boosts in evasion.(details ignored)
You also get other supporting commands like Luck(double the money gain in the next combat) and Love(Healing friendly units) but not really important in this discussion.
Real robot pilots can also switch mecha, so the original character of your choice can pilot Gundams, as I recall, you cannot get him/her to pilot L-Gaim and Dunbine mecha, but since you do get an overwhelming number of MS, that's good enough.(However, Gundam pilots cannot use Personal Troopers[PT] of the SRW origin, so Gespenst and Huckebein are limited to your own character.)
I don't recall if Super Robot pilots can switch mecha or not(They can in F as a lot of people switched Boss to use Mazinger Z due to him having Luck and money is hard to earn in SRW) but even if they can, they are only limited to the very little supply of suit in their own series, not even switchable with sequel mechas not piloted by them(So you really cannot let the pilot of Mazinger Z using Great Mazinger since that is a sequel where GM is used by his father.) Most of the time they don't have anything to switch to anyway.
Going into the Real route you get new MS while going into Super route you get new weapons for the robots.

When you design your game, you might want to take into account such limitations as well. Super robots might seem powerful, but that comes with a price.

Getting back to later SRW classification, Real type robots are mass-production models, ace customs or super prototypes. Super type robots are special machines that you cannot make many of, and even if you get a few of them stamped out, they have their own differences and pilots cannot really switch between them without penalty. (Good example is the Grungast series, they look similar but are not that compatitable)
Game-wise, if you don't have pilots as separate units, you can simple increase the cost of the Super types, or simply have more mecha in a unit of the Real types. (So 1 unit means 1-2 Super type or 3-5 Real types, pick your choice of number, you can have mixed units as well, like 1S+2R against 2S or 5R) I'd be more inclined to cost, since even Super robots have vastly different sizes.(Mazinger is 18m; 20 tons, which can hardly be more powerful than Gundam in any sense, especially looking at the tech level, RX-78-2 should be more powerful since the Photon force drive and Z alloy doesn't really show much more power than the Minovsky particle based tech and Lunar Titanium. Okay, the 1million horse power IS better than the Rapport deluxe claim of 60,000 horse power of Gundam, but the speed, the range and efficiency of the weapons are so vastly inferior.)

The deity-like guys, just have Ideon (God GM) in the Federation, that is exactly designed for them. ;9
Or you can get God mode Unicorn Gundam. Far less comedic if you ask me.

Ah, and most importantly, I forgot about some series, the SF3D series, and the similar size Sakura Wars series, good match with Bonta-kun. ;9
Kuruni wrote:
Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:47 pm
Instead of listing all, here're few "iconic" that I can think of...

Virtual On It's hard to tell, but they're unique style about them. If you've to pick the most iconic of them, it would be Temjin and Fei-Yen. While we're on subject of video games, throw Metal Gear Rex (Metal gear Solid), Nine-Ball (Armored Core), and Zenith (Front Mission) in there too.
I don't really consider Virtual On to be unique. It is quite obvious that the design is Gundam like(or I should say, Federation like since you don't have Zeon like VR machines). The most unique part to it might be they have a Sega Saturn as their backpack, and later a Dreamcast, and when Sega ditched its console department, just a generic disc playing device.
Well, that and Feiyin, but seriously?

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by Kuruni » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:17 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:22 am
Well, that and Feiyin, but seriously?
Very seriously indeed. I myself still find the VR give unique feel, but I guess it's different to you. Then again, I shake my head in disbelief when you mentioned Escaflowne. I like the mech design, but its iconic status are around the tier of Mechander Robo, Macross II, and Southern Cross.

Now I'm not sure if the OP still comeback to check the thread. But I would like to point out how a Japanese homebrew system called Super Robot Taisen MG handle mech creation. Basically, they devide it into ten archetypes and six ranks pf power tier. Not really accurate take of genre, but work fine as game mechanic.

The archetypes are

Super-Science Super - The classic super robot like Mazinger and Getter. Named after how their existence are usually handwaved by some ultra advance, pulp-era science. The base line of Super Robot. Slow but tough, and has many options in term of functions and weapons.
Brave Super - Named after the Brave Series, also work well on Transformers. Not as tough as Super-Science Super, but the special attacks are more powerful.
Fantasy Super - For magic-wielding super robot like Rayearth. Actually the most balance among Super archetypes.
Martial Art Super - Daimos and God Gundam. Another balance archetype, but focus on melee attack.
Military Super - Think of Dancouga and Eva. Focus on range attack, special attacks are weaker than other Super.
Sci-fi Real - UC Gundam archetype. The base line of Real Robot. Fast, good options for middle to long range weapons, but not much interm of durability and firepower.
Super Weapon Real - Gundam W and Gundam X. Slower than Sci-fi Real but has more powerful weapons.
Semi-realistic Real - FMP. Has many options in term of functions and weapons, but even less durable than Sci-fi Real and very weak weapons.
Fantasy Real - Dunbine. Has balance mobility and attack power, but only few weapons and functions.
Villain Super - Zeorymer and named villains' super robot. Good (or bad) in every aspect, typicaly not available to PC.

The ranks are

E - Grunts. Zaku, Minifo, normal tank. Typicaly not available to PC.
D - Stronger grunts, or support robot. If hero use it, it will be so weak that they hardly use it.
C - The first main robot before mid season upgrade. Super robot's "enemy of the week".
B - The hero's upgraded robot
A - The hero's final robot. Probably pull from MSV series.
S - Last boss. Planet destroyer. Anything that's overly powerful. Typicaly not available to PC.
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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by False Prophet » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:20 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:22 am

But before going into detail, you may get some ideas from how SRW balance their game.
In the older days, Real VS Super in SRW isn't really the genre of Real Robots and Super Robots we talked about today.
The terms was first used in the 4th installation, giving a loose definition for the robots.
You can choose your main character to be Real Type or Super Type, that will influence the story route and stats of the character. The super route you get to be with more of the Super robot genre robots like Mazinger, Getter, etc. While in the real route you get to be with, well, obvious enough, the Real robot genre robots like Gundam, L-Gaim, etc.
The Super robots are usually better in defense and hit point, with more powerful moves(which costs you much energy, EN) and shorter ranges, while Real robots are usually more agile(hard to hit, aims better and moves faster), have longer range. With some exceptions like Getter 2, which is an agile unit.
The spirit command of the pilots are also quite fitting with their relevant mecha.
Super Robot pilots having commands like hot blood(doubling the damage on your next attack by this robot), iron wall(Doubling the defense stat for a turn) which excels in rushing inside the enemy, tank off most enemy hits and use the finish move to kill off the big boss. You'd be hating the game if you try to use them to get rid of the small flies since their hit rate is pathetic. But reducing their attack damage to the lowest possible number, 10, basically renders those to be useless.
Real robots pilots have commands that helps in evasion(Hirameki, reduces enemy hit rate to 0% for the next combat; concentrate, increase your own hit rate and reduce enemy hit rates by 30% for the turn) they usually get a lower level boost of moving twice in a turn while some, like Amuro, gets a high level spirit command "Spirit" the triples next damage dealt. Newtype and Aura Battlers(Dubine) also get boosts in evasion.(details ignored)
You also get other supporting commands like Luck(double the money gain in the next combat) and Love(Healing friendly units) but not really important in this discussion.
Real robot pilots can also switch mecha, so the original character of your choice can pilot Gundams, as I recall, you cannot get him/her to pilot L-Gaim and Dunbine mecha, but since you do get an overwhelming number of MS, that's good enough.(However, Gundam pilots cannot use Personal Troopers[PT] of the SRW origin, so Gespenst and Huckebein are limited to your own character.)
I don't recall if Super Robot pilots can switch mecha or not(They can in F as a lot of people switched Boss to use Mazinger Z due to him having Luck and money is hard to earn in SRW) but even if they can, they are only limited to the very little supply of suit in their own series, not even switchable with sequel mechas not piloted by them(So you really cannot let the pilot of Mazinger Z using Great Mazinger since that is a sequel where GM is used by his father.) Most of the time they don't have anything to switch to anyway.
Going into the Real route you get new MS while going into Super route you get new weapons for the robots.

When you design your game, you might want to take into account such limitations as well. Super robots might seem powerful, but that comes with a price.

Getting back to later SRW classification, Real type robots are mass-production models, ace customs or super prototypes. Super type robots are special machines that you cannot make many of, and even if you get a few of them stamped out, they have their own differences and pilots cannot really switch between them without penalty. (Good example is the Grungast series, they look similar but are not that compatitable)
Game-wise, if you don't have pilots as separate units, you can simple increase the cost of the Super types, or simply have more mecha in a unit of the Real types. (So 1 unit means 1-2 Super type or 3-5 Real types, pick your choice of number, you can have mixed units as well, like 1S+2R against 2S or 5R) I'd be more inclined to cost, since even Super robots have vastly different sizes.(Mazinger is 18m; 20 tons, which can hardly be more powerful than Gundam in any sense, especially looking at the tech level, RX-78-2 should be more powerful since the Photon force drive and Z alloy doesn't really show much more power than the Minovsky particle based tech and Lunar Titanium. Okay, the 1million horse power IS better than the Rapport deluxe claim of 60,000 horse power of Gundam, but the speed, the range and efficiency of the weapons are so vastly inferior.)

The deity-like guys, just have Ideon (God GM) in the Federation, that is exactly designed for them. ;9
Or you can get God mode Unicorn Gundam. Far less comedic if you ask me.

Ah, and most importantly, I forgot about some series, the SF3D series, and the similar size Sakura Wars series, good match with Bonta-kun. ;9
Yeah, our system does use a point-based system (each game happens around a 1000-4000 points limit), so
maybe what you said here is relevant.

Also, regarding Mazinger, doesn't it in one of the manga is depicted to be powered by Koji's willpower (kind of like biosensor), so shouldn't it be more powerful than RX-78 Gundam?

That aside, I don't know much about Sakura Wars, but I am looking for an inspiration for Steampunk mecha. Does the mechs in Sakura Wars represent Steampunk enough?

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:58 am

Kuruni wrote:
Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:17 am
Very seriously indeed. I myself still find the VR give unique feel, but I guess it's different to you. Then again, I shake my head in disbelief when you mentioned Escaflowne. I like the mech design, but its iconic status are around the tier of Mechander Robo, Macross II, and Southern Cross.
Well, I basically looked at the art style and design, Virtual On series mainly based on modification to its own iconic design of the Temjin, which is more or less a modified VF-1J head on a GM body.
There are other similar designs that predates VO, that's why I don't consider it to be a cornerstone.
Feiyin is more fermine, and the Feiyin series introduced quite some different clothing like designs, so I listed it as an exception.

Escaflowne isn't really iconic, but its design is different. Unlike Mechander Robo, a typical 70's Super Robot design and Macross II/Southern Cross, extension of Macross VF designs. At least I can't really think of anything with a similar design that predates it.

I forgot about Rayearth, but I guess the manga version is just more like less-distorted FFS MH and the anime version, if I recall right, looks like Fantasy knights more than mecha. All I remember is the Autozam cool ship in Rayearth II(Drawn much better in anime than in manga and much cooler that the real life Mazda Autozam)
False Prophet wrote:
Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:20 am

Yeah, our system does use a point-based system (each game happens around a 1000-4000 points limit), so
maybe what you said here is relevant.

Also, regarding Mazinger, doesn't it in one of the manga is depicted to be powered by Koji's willpower (kind of like biosensor), so shouldn't it be more powerful than RX-78 Gundam?

That aside, I don't know much about Sakura Wars, but I am looking for an inspiration for Steampunk mecha. Does the mechs in Sakura Wars represent Steampunk enough?
Mazinger, if running on willpower with unexplaint power, will always be more powerful in plot. But similar can apply to the not really that realistic RX-78 as well. Amuro with his NT powers was seen to have performed quite unreasonable feats in dodging and aiming. Anyway, it is not very rational to discuss about cross series power levels without references, so I'll stop here. Mazinger's output spec is way above RX-78, I will grant you that, but you likely have to level out things just for the sake of balancing the game.

Sakura Wars' Spiritual Armour(霊子甲冑), well, Steampunk with some Far East Oriental fantasy mixed?
They are run on steam and reiriki(Spiritual energy), fights demons and Satan himself(and wins)
If you just look at the appearance design aspects, definitely steampunk.
The problem of it is the size and settings. I'll talk about size first.
Just like SRW games, if you think about it, the size really matters.
Spiritual Armour is only about 2.5~4m, as comparison, Bonta-kun is 2~2.5m,
The other end of the spectrum, Gunbuster is 200m. Evangelion is 40~200m
(no fixed setting, the settings is about the size of a building, there's actually official 4-coma comic making fun of this setting)
The more typical size is probably around 20~40m.
You can check size adjustments in SRW, they have a modifier on evasion rates.
The settings of Spiritual Arnour is more problematic, it is not designed for general combat, and will suck at handling enemies with regular/Physical weapons. The main material is iron and lead, discoveredunder curses during the in-universe American civil war (When a couple hid their baby inside a tractor's engine block and the baby became the sole survivor) The excellence defense against spiritual attacks like curses is the pay-off of almost defenseless in physical attacks. So if you put it among other robots that uses physical attacks like rocket punches, iron cutter, etc, good luck.
BTW, they are more Power Suit than mecha.(you don't need to learn much before being able to use them, in fact, the hero in the story had no training at all, hopped onto a Koubuu and defeated some grunts, claimed that it is just like regular armour.)

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by Kuruni » Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:11 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:58 am
Well, I basically looked at the art style and design, Virtual On series mainly based on modification to its own iconic design of the Temjin, which is more or less a modified VF-1J head on a GM body.
There are other similar designs that predates VO, that's why I don't consider it to be a cornerstone.
Feiyin is more fermine, and the Feiyin series introduced quite some different clothing like designs, so I listed it as an exception.

Escaflowne isn't really iconic, but its design is different. Unlike Mechander Robo, a typical 70's Super Robot design and Macross II/Southern Cross, extension of Macross VF designs. At least I can't really think of anything with a similar design that predates it.
Point taken. I guess that at least I can give Escaflowne some credit for usage of Caped Mecha trope.
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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by False Prophet » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:39 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:58 am
Escaflowne isn't really iconic, but its design is different. Unlike Mechander Robo, a typical 70's Super Robot design and Macross II/Southern Cross, extension of Macross VF designs. At least I can't really think of anything with a similar design that predates it.

I forgot about Rayearth, but I guess the manga version is just more like less-distorted FFS MH and the anime version, if I recall right, looks like Fantasy knights more than mecha. All I remember is the Autozam cool ship in Rayearth II(Drawn much better in anime than in manga and much cooler that the real life Mazda Autozam)

---

Sakura Wars' Spiritual Armour(霊子甲冑), well, Steampunk with some Far East Oriental fantasy mixed?
They are run on steam and reiriki(Spiritual energy), fights demons and Satan himself(and wins)
If you just look at the appearance design aspects, definitely steampunk.
The problem of it is the size and settings. I'll talk about size first.
Just like SRW games, if you think about it, the size really matters.
Spiritual Armour is only about 2.5~4m, as comparison, Bonta-kun is 2~2.5m,
The other end of the spectrum, Gunbuster is 200m. Evangelion is 40~200m
(no fixed setting, the settings is about the size of a building, there's actually official 4-coma comic making fun of this setting)
The more typical size is probably around 20~40m.
You can check size adjustments in SRW, they have a modifier on evasion rates.
The settings of Spiritual Arnour is more problematic, it is not designed for general combat, and will suck at handling enemies with regular/Physical weapons. The main material is iron and lead, discoveredunder curses during the in-universe American civil war (When a couple hid their baby inside a tractor's engine block and the baby became the sole survivor) The excellence defense against spiritual attacks like curses is the pay-off of almost defenseless in physical attacks. So if you put it among other robots that uses physical attacks like rocket punches, iron cutter, etc, good luck.
BTW, they are more Power Suit than mecha.(you don't need to learn much before being able to use them, in fact, the hero in the story had no training at all, hopped onto a Koubuu and defeated some grunts, claimed that it is just like regular armour.)
Thanks for the info! I'll looki into Sakura Wars more.

(BTW, basically in our system the mechs are divided into class of size and height (kind of like Battlemech), with Class 0 are power armors, Class 1 are Knightmares- and Arm Slave-like, all the way to Class 8+ which is over 30 m.)

Speaking of Fantasy Mechas, should I take inspiration from Rayearth, Escaflowne, Dunbine, Galient, or Cybuster? I'm building a faction which is feudalistic and takes inspiration from both Charlemagne legends and Star Wars.

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Jun 11, 2017 10:50 am

False Prophet wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:39 am
Thanks for the info! I'll looki into Sakura Wars more.

(BTW, basically in our system the mechs are divided into class of size and height (kind of like Battlemech), with Class 0 are power armors, Class 1 are Knightmares- and Arm Slave-like, all the way to Class 8+ which is over 30 m.)

Speaking of Fantasy Mechas, should I take inspiration from Rayearth, Escaflowne, Dunbine, Galient, or Cybuster? I'm building a faction which is feudalistic and takes inspiration from both Charlemagne legends and Star Wars.
You can also use Five Star Story as Fantasy design style.
On the other hand, I am of the view that Galient isn't fantasy enough just by the appearance of it. Granted that I haven't watched the series and only took a look at the hero's machine picture.

The Fantasy style, in my POV, should take into account more romanticism and less efficiency.
So you have more curves, redundant decorations, heroic amplifications, etc.
So you can have machines with parts of it plated gold or silver, signifying emblems and coat of arms, lines of strange shapes that resembles magic circles and runes, etc.
(Similar redundancy can be found in Dozle custom Zaku and Big Zam, Ma Kube custom Gouf, Sleves, etc.)
This kind of style goes for the medieval knight saga type of art. FFS, Rayearth and the newer light novel/manga/to-be-anime Knights and Magic and Galient use this idea.
Another fantasy style would be viewing the mecha as deity figures, similar to idols worshiped by believers. These can have more energy parts like fire or water integrated to represent its raw power. Rayearth is a good example.
The last one I can think of is the more monstrous or beastly style, mechas are derived from living organism and gives a feeling that they are more like tamed instead of made, and have a wild feeling that they can simply loosen the chain and go against you. Dunbine and Escaflowne are this kind.
Of course nothing is really purely one single style, FFS also likes to promote is monstrousness when armour pieces are taken away, Dunbine and Escaflowne has some knight style mixed in, Rayearth is most certainly knightier than plain idol figures.
Cybuster series on the other hand gave a feeling of not going far enough in the deity figure style, but also not really into the other two types. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it gives a more realistic feel to the otherwise fantastic setting, and the balance seems to be just right.

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by False Prophet » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:20 am

So,I've pretty much done with the Gundam-esque faction and now moving to other factions. On the table is the plan for one which consists of insect-like creatures controlled by hive minds. I've got Warhamemr 40k, Aliens, and Starship Trooper for my inspiration, but is there any anime which shows mecha fighting against biological alien life forms (other than Muv-Luv)?

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by Kuruni » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:14 am

Macross Frontier, of course. Also Mospeada.

Zoid also have plenty of insect types.
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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:12 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:20 am
On the table is the plan for one which consists of insect-like creatures controlled by hive minds. I've got Warhamemr 40k, Aliens, and Starship Trooper for my inspiration, but is there any anime which shows mecha fighting against biological alien life forms (other than Muv-Luv)?
I think Blue Gender's Blue insect-like creatures is precisely what you are looking for. Tekkaman Blade's Radam spider-crabs might also fit the bill.

Personally I would have preferred for Gundam Age's Vagan MS to be alien creatures controlled by a hive mind as you mention. Their draconic design and concept seems to be based on Nadesico's "jovian lizards", the nickname for the unknown invading aliens which use many insect-like mecha. Kuruni posted some images of these a while ago:

http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Kur ... Ng==/?ref=
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Kur ... MzU=/?ref=
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Kur ... NDE=/?ref=
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Kur ... Mzk=/?ref=
http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/Kur ... NjE=/?ref=

Back to Vagan MS, while overall I didn't like the series, I did like how unique some Vegan units were, such as:

http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/age/ovv-f.htm (dragon mode)
http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/age/ovv-af.htm
http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/age/ovw-dc.htm
http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/age/xvg-xxx.htm
http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/sid/sid.htm
http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/age/xvm-gz.htm
http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/age/xvm-zbc.htm

Perhaps one day someone could make a remake and change the overall premise starting by making the Vagan true alien invaders. The different Vagan MS could be adapted into man-eating alien creatures. They could call it Gundam R-Age (rage), lol.

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by Kuruni » Fri Jun 23, 2017 1:04 am

Although not a mecha series (you still find plenty of them) R-Type's Bydo is possibly the best example of biomechanical alien.
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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:49 pm

False Prophet wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:20 am
So,I've pretty much done with the Gundam-esque faction and now moving to other factions. On the table is the plan for one which consists of insect-like creatures controlled by hive minds. I've got Warhamemr 40k, Aliens, and Starship Trooper for my inspiration, but is there any anime which shows mecha fighting against biological alien life forms (other than Muv-Luv)?
Gunbuster and Diebuster, the space monsters.
Although you have serious trouble in balancing the Earth-sized 12800km long planet class unless you do factor in Buster Machine 7 and 19 can destroy it with their Double Inazuma Kick.(And of course, Diebuster)
Oh, and Zerg rush is nothing compared to the billions of space monsters in Gunbuster.

Valley of the Wind, you get the giant mecha (God Warrior), so the insects from the Toxic Jungle(Sea of Decay) are biological life forms
SpoilerShow
(not alien and actually genetically modified by ancient human to clean up the toxic waste human made)
Two stories by Ooi Masakazu (大井昌和) called Kidou Teikoku Orbitalia (Boot up Empire Orbitalia 起動帝国オービタリア) and Stories Youngster of the Giant Town (ストーリーズ 〜巨人街の少年〜) has mecha in the size of Cities(people live on them and war is fought between these) and below a certain height, it is toxic and human cannot survive, only very few "Gifted" humans obtained Super powers from there and can pilot mecha around 4~5m tall.(And can fight a legion even without the mecha) I've only read the sequel "Stories", Adapted obviously from Valley of the Wind is the toxic environment and large insects, gliders and gunboats, oh, and people petrifies slowly if they receive a non-lethal but long term overdose to the toxic. Although you only see flying insects since the story starts so high up in the city mecha, a girl as the princess controls one of the insects. People have to fight insects as well as their own wars. It all makes sense in context.

In Suisei no Gargantia you have mecha fighting biological, seemingly alien space squid
SpoilerShow
(Just that they are genetically modified humans to adapt space)
A pretty new non mecha manga called Asebi and the Adventurers of the Sky World (あせびと空世界の冒険者) which features flying ships have flying "Dragon Fish" that are controlled by androids. You do get a 1.5 times human height worker bot controlled by 4 little robots that is the closest thing you have as a mecha if you do not consider the humanoid androids and Denmaru(a little robot) as mecha.(I don't)

Mahoromatic, you do get some mecha, but mainly android, and friendly but powerful.

Another non mecha series(actually, mecha enough), Stellvia of the universe, you get not very aggressive but really powerful and advanced aliens. (They do fight for a while but are actually friendly)

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by False Prophet » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:34 pm

Thanks guys, I'll be sure to check out those series.

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Re: Which series has "cornerstone" mecha designs?

Post by SonicSP » Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:47 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:12 pm
Perhaps one day someone could make a remake and change the overall premise starting by making the Vagan true alien invaders. The different Vagan MS could be adapted into man-eating alien creatures. They could call it Gundam R-Age (rage), lol.
I wished they were real aliens too, that would have been nice. In any case, I'm not a big fan of the specific designs per say but I like and appreciate the wildly different theme they have especially in comparison say the AGE EF's more tradition designs.

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