The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.

Moderators: ShadowCell, Heretic, mcred23, EZero8, Draco Starcloud, SNT1, Kenji

Post Reply
E08
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:00 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by E08 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:08 am

yazi88 wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:55 am
According to the HG kit for the Grimgarde, the Valkyria Frames were general purpose units that were easy to use and as ease of maintenance that evolved over the years to its descendants Geirail and Graze.
While it is true that Gerail and Graze are descendants of the Valkyria Frame, its characteristics isn't ease of use and ease of maintenance, that would be the Graze. The Valkyria Frame's characteristic is actually minimal energy loss and being lightweight.

The Valkyria Frame doesn't seem to have contributed much in the Calamity War, it was overshadowed by the Gundam Frame and less than 10 units were produced. So far, the only Valkyria Frame that is confirmed to have participated in the Calamity War is the sidestory's Ortlinde, which is noted to have fought alongside the Gundam Gremory.

I suppose one way to rationalize the numbers given in the Mechanics & World 2 book is to take them as being applicable only to MA hunting strike teams, while the other numerous MS defending various bases, facilities, cities, etc, being unaccounted for.

User avatar
SonicSP
OMG Doomsday Laser
Posts: 1337
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by SonicSP » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:39 am

yazi88 wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:30 am
I guess it would depend on the equipment on the Gundams, as I think all of them had specialized equipment unlike the mass produced Hexa and Rodi frames, some even being capable of using the Dainslefs as the case with the Flauros. Plus a group of Gundams working together, especially with the AV system can be very effective more so than the mass produced units. AV brought out the full potential on Gundams.
Gundams are definitely better than the mass production units, that is definitely true. That said 72 Gundams, even full powered AV with Deinsleifs against countless mobile armors still feels like a stretch especially given that the each mobile armor has a lot of Plumas accompanying them.

The twin reactor of the Gundams are strong but they're not that strong. It's not like say, the Twin Drive System from 00 you can see a few of those units solo on a giant an giant army (and in the case of 00 Qan(T), actually could do so- and against an evolving alien army too). Even something like 00 Season 1 Gundams versus the regular mobile suits of that world can make sense due to the huge relative power difference. The difference between relative power of the Gundams in IBO vs everything else aren't as great as that extent.

In addition, the Ahab Reactors don't do as much as the GN Drives in terms of overall mobile suit capability so there is less direct correlation between reactor output and mobile suit performance.

Furthermore that 80% number isn't just for regular suits but the entire force including things that aren't MA. The Gundams are powerful but they still require a lot of support. Their fuel capacity for example, is really really short like other mobile suits and without them their extra reactor output becomes more useless especially since beam weapons are not in play after Nanolaminate Armor was adopted by the mobile armors

And as another part of E08 post mentioned, to even use the Deinsleif on mobile armor requires a lot of decoys and distractions because they are very agile. Countless MA vs 72 Gundams and with much smaller support team is really really pushing it in my opinion.

Even if the Gundams are working together, then there is a good chance that the mobile armors are as well. The mobile armors, being more akin to ship class sizes will also have larger Ahab Reactors with higher output than regular MS which would cut down the relative output advantage of the Gundams.

The Gundams being the stars of the Calamity War isn't new, we knew even from early on that they were the vital breakthrough that have the victory of the war. Still there's a difference between being the stars and being majority of the force makeup. I just feel like the 80% number feels off, perhaps not in a direct contradiction but in spirit with the things we have been told before, especially with the part about how there's not that many of them. They have way too many limitations from what we have seen in the anime to be that effective with very little extra infantry support against a powerful high number enemy that is self sustaining, even if we assume all of them are at peak AV state.
Kuruni wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:24 am
That being said, Dantalion (the 71th) is said to developed using combat data from previous Gundam units and completed just before the end of Calamity War. So if it's really "initial batch", then said batch last throughout the war and likely with long pause between each units.
It's hard to say for sure about the time period since we don't know about the total length, but the Gundam Frame series as a whole was mentioned to have been deployed during the late stages of the war. Specifically, this was first mentioned in one of the CGS blog entries and repeated in one or two places afterwards.

So that would make Unit 71 Danteleon to be the late stage of the late stage of the war so to speak.

I should note here that my using the word "batch" over there is due to the naming scheme being consistent with being 72 units produced and 72 names in the convention (I.E. I'm speculating). However since most basic description of the Gundams in many sources tends to parrot that line that roughly says "because of this, only 72 units were produced", that implies that the whole 72 are at least some sort of single major series of sorts, even though they're not made at exactly the same time. Otherwise, it would be a huge coincidence that that they stopped at the end of Ars Grotia.

Still, I guess with what you said with Dantaleon, there's definitely at least some mini batches within that series at least.
Deathzealot wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:57 am
Hmmm... What about the Valkriya Frames?
They were developed and used during the same period but was overshadowed by the Gundams and was forgotten by the public.

Well considering they were outnumbered by the Gundams by a ratio of at least 4:1 based on the recent info (and likely it's actually worse than that), it's not surprising lol.
Last edited by SonicSP on Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
SonicSP
OMG Doomsday Laser
Posts: 1337
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by SonicSP » Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:41 am

Double posted.

User avatar
Kuruni
Der Bigen Slicen
Posts: 2717
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:43 am
Location: sitting next to a cute loli
Contact:

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by Kuruni » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:27 am

There's one bit I noticed about Deinsleif. Despite its awesome penetrating power, its effect on mechanic is surprisingly low (it's possible that mobile weapon engineering of Calimity War and PD era is simply very good). Amida's Hyakuren, Barbatos LR, and Gusion RF are still functional well enough despite get several pikes punch through them. The former two only stop when their pilot die/pass out from injuries, and its take few more axes to stop Gusion RF. So I'm under impression that an unmanned MA with support from Pluma horde can take it even better.
My girlfriend was a loli.

E08
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:00 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by E08 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:35 am

Ok, here’s the second part, it is about Gundam Frame and Valkyria Frame. I have an earlier post on the Mechanical Works’ Gundam Frame info here, so I wouldn’t be repeating those.

Gundam Frame (M&W 2)
The twin Ahab Reactors’ excessive output is not for normal usage, rather it is for a burst of power during the few opportunities available to land a clean hit on the MA. To maximize these opportunities to deal a lethal blow to the MA, the amount of energy instantaneously transferred to the weapon must be as large as possible.

Barbatos Lupus
M&W 2: Large Railgun listed as part of weaponry. The suit’s fingertips are armored (likely referring to the white parts). The claws of the backpack’s sub arms can be extended on a wire. A 20mm machine gun is mounte in the Arm 200mm Gun’s sensor portion. The suit’s close combat weaponry (sword mace, twin mace, the new long sword, etc) is created to fit Mikazuki’s combat style. As he excels in close combat using heavy blunt weapons, the suit’s use of portable firearms are kept to a minimum, instead it mainly uses exchangeable firearms attached to the forearms. The Arm Rocket Launcher’s projectile has a total length of 2.8m. Waist thrusters are based on Barbatos 5th form Ground Type’s and 6th form’s. Suspension in the legs for ground use is now standard equipment, allowing the suit to be used for all terrain/environment.

2nd C: Barbatos Lupus’ OS seems to be made by Teiwaz.

Barbatos Lupus Rex
M&W 2: The toe claws are movable. During the overhaul to Barbatos Lupus Rex, sampling of the data of Barbatos Lupus’ fight with Hashmal was conducted. The tail blade is useful for one against many or unfavorable combat situations. In hopes of better close combat performance, the tail blade and rex nails (wrongly listed as Lupus nails in text) are made of rare metal with hardness that surpass that of high hardness alloy. The 200mm Guns built into the arms is a further development of the Barbatos Lupus’ firearms.

Doc 2: Rare metal with super hardness are used to the make the claws on the manipulators and toes. Ultra large mace is noted to be an ultra heavy weapon. Via the AV system, Mikazuki can use the tail blade in an inhumanely flexible manner.

Gusion Rebake Full City
Doc 2: Has a balance of close combat and support capabilities.

M&W 2: The rifle’s caliber is listed as 110mm. The Halberd is the same as Gusion Rebake’s, has a pile bunker in the tip. The forearm rocket launcher only has a single round. Retains the cockpit structure of Gusion Rebake, which consisted of a Graze cockpit module and an AV system compatible seat used by the Brewers (in line with Mechanics & World 1 which noted Ryusei-Go and Gusion Rebake has the same cockpit). The usage of Akihiro’s combat record/data in the overhaul from Gusion Rebake to Gusion Rebake Full City centers on equipment feedback. The suit’s exterior and equipment are all brand new, but it retains the basic structure and functionalities of its predecessor. While the Gusion Rebake uses Graze’s arms as its sub-arms as it was built in a hurry, the Gusion Rebake Full City’s sub-arms are specifically created for it. The suit’s portable armaments change according to needs, allowing it to flexibly adapt to close or ranged combat. The Scissor form of the Scissor-Variable Rear Armor fully utilized the maximum output of the suit’s Ahab Reactors. With its capabilities in both ranged and close combat, as well as the usefulness of the Sub-arms, the suit is noted to be usable in a wider range of tactics than other MS. The long range flight backpack unit is hastily built, and uses the same boosters as Kutan Type III.

2nd C: Listed the suit as having two types of rifles: 110mm rifle and 120mm Long Range Rifle. Interestingly, the pictures of the 110mm rifle are actually the same as the 120mm Long Range Rifle pictures used in Mechanics & World 1, albeit the highlighted parts are in different colors.

Flauros
Doc 2: Shelling Mode is for ultra long range shooting. Assault knives focused on mobility, and are used for emergency self-defense. The suit’s basic tactics relies on bombardment with its railguns.

M&W 2: The railguns and short-barreled cannons are listed collectively as back railgun (short barrel/long barrel). The cockpit block is the same as other Teiwaz MS, but has AV system compatible seat. Unlike Barbatos and Gusion Rebake, the overhaul of the suit did not involved feedback based on pilot’s data, but is focus on restoring the suit’s original functions. Teiwaz restored the damaged railguns based on the data they have. Shelling mode provides better stability during bombardment due to its low posture and as the suit is fixed to the ground surface. Assault knives’ blades are thick, and the weapon’s capabilities are in between that of an axe and knife.

2nd C: Short Barreled Cannons are developed as a weapon that can display its capabilities without the suit having to transform into Shelling Mode. However, its firepower is weaker than the long barreled railguns.

Bael
Doc 2: The Bael Swords are lightweight, but a skilled pilot can still use them to slice apart MS frame.

M&W 2: Bael’s cockpit has a compact vibe, and a different layout from the cockpits of Gjallarhorn made MS. Compared to other Gundam Frames, it is quite a standard unit with extremely few special features in terms of weaponry or on the machine itself.

2nd C: McGillis is said to have Calamity War era’s AV System. The thruster wings grant high mobility under gravity. Gundam Bael is a rare existence among the Gundam Frame. Bael’s electromagnetic cannon is also stated as rail guns here.

Vidar
Doc 2: Rather than slashing, the Hunter’s Edge uses the suit’s leg strength to knock off (?) opponents, and serve as a mass-based weapon. When utilize with the suit’s high mobility, it is an elegant way of battling.

M&W 2: The cockpit shares parts with those of Gjallarhorn made MS, but the hatch has the same opening method as other Gundam Frame: the top chest armor slides forwards and the seat will rise. The Hunter’s Edge strengthened the suit’s attacking power as it turns the entire leg into a weapon. Arianrhod Fleet’s Chief Technician, Yamazin Toka, was in charge of modifying the Kimaris Trooper into Vidar. The added weight caused by having a 3rd reactor purely for concealing the suit’s Ahab Wave frequency is not much of a dead weight for a Gundam Frame as it has excess output from two Ahab reactors. The suit’s armament discards those that would give the image of Kimaris, and center around light and fast weaponry.

Kimaris Vidar
Doc 2: Appearance is the same as one of Kimaris’ variations during the Calamity War. It has been adjusted with the latest technology, thus its combat capabilities are outstanding.

M&W 2: Conversion of Vidar into Kimaris Vidar was conducted quickly because it was planned from the beginning. Its equipment is the same as those used in the Calamity War era. The Dainsleif is overkill for anti-MS combat, and was not used in the final battle due to Gaelio’s character - he is determined to end the fight using his own hands. The suit has plenty of armament with the potential to be used in all range, and is considered to have a high level of completion amongst the Kimaris’ variations. The sword is made of high hardness rare metal alloy used in MS frame

Valkyria Frame
M.Works: It was said that 9 variation types were developed during the war. (I think this was also mentioned in earlier books)

Doc 2: A high performance frame developed in the late stages of the Calamity War. Although it has only 1 Ahab Reactor, its frame design allows it to realize performance second to that of the Gundam Frame.

M&W 2: The Valkyria Frame lost to the Gundam Frame during the Calamity War, but post war, the situation reversed as the new era needed balance and efficiency. Valkyria Frame has variation plans to suit the equipped armaments.

Grimgerde
M.Works: Have excellent energy efficiency, and high versatility as well as mobility. Its performance remains unchanged even in modern era. The forehead slit contains a sub sensor, the main camera is the vertical sensor below. The sub sensor is revealed when the mask slides down and the forehead visor slides up.

Helmwige Reincar
M.Works: The Valkyria Buster Sword with extended handle is Long Mode, with retracted handle is Short Mode. Holding the sword consistently places excessive burden on the main arms. Thus, during movement it is attached to a mount in the front armor, which is designed like an arm and has a certain degree of flexible movements.

M&W 2: Helmwige Reincar is equipped with heavy armor to the mobility limit of the frame’s output. Even the collar has heavy armor. Due to the thrusters’ placement, the suit has high mobility in a straight line. The ‘reincar’ (short for ‘reincarnation’) part of the name reflects the fact that the suit is actually a retrofitted Grimgerde. The original Helmwige is configured for anti-MA combat. The electric shock horns are meant to pierce the gaps in the armor of the captured enemy unit. It is speculated that the original Valkyria Buster Sword (Helmwige Reincar’s is just a reproduction) might have been made of rare metals like the Grimgerde’s Valkyria Blades.

2nd C: Heavy MS for anti-MA combat. Electric shock horns are used after the suit has immobilized the enemy with its heavy weight. The front armor has a hidden sub arm for the stable transport of the Valkyria Buster Sword. The suit’s feet expand when weight is applied to the legs, such as during ground combat, ensuring stability under gravity.

User avatar
SonicSP
OMG Doomsday Laser
Posts: 1337
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by SonicSP » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:56 pm

Hmmm something interesting/weird on Pg 95 of IBO Mechanics and World 2. There's a section called Weapons Frame Material which has two subsections, each describing a different materials.

The first one is High Hardness Rare Alloy. The rare alloy part spelled in katakana as レアアロイ (reaaroi). Here it's described as being used in mobile suit frames, armor and weapons and can prevent corrosion and allow mobile suits to have a lifetime of hundred of years.

The second section is called Rare Metal and is spelled in kanji as 希少金属 (kishōkinzoku). It describes it as having higher hardness than the rare alloy (the first category above). It's mentioned to be rare and very difficult to process and hence is not very common. It's also can be destroyed by stronger attacks or damage accumulation over time.

The interesting part is that the second material is mentioned to e used by Bael's swords. This appear to somewhat contradict the HG Bael manual that noted that its swords were made by the rare metal that is used to make mobile suit frames, however that is very clearly to be the first category material which is the relatively commonレアアロイ (reaaroi), which is different from the super rare second material 希少金属 (kishōkinzoku).

Speaking of which, the way the 希少金属 (kishōkinzoku) makes it sounds like the same material used in the Reginlaze Julia's blades, which is a special process super rare material as described in the HG, which is also the same as Grimgerde's blades? Certainly it would make more sense for Bael swords and Grimgerde's to be the same material due to the visual similarities, and Julia's blades also had that small section of gold.

Can't remember how the materials are spelled in the previous sources before (or whether the alloy/metal word are used consistently) but I wonder whether they were always spelled this way. Cos if they were, the fact that one uses katakana and the other kanji would make it way easier to differentiate which is which in a sentence perhaps.

E08
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:00 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by E08 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:47 pm

Well, the rare metal term ‘希少金属’ is also used in the HG manual’s Bael Sword profile when describing its material. It is possible that the HG manual writers got their information wrong. Another possibility is that if the M&W2 book did not explicitly say that the rare metal is used only for weapons, or that it is unsuitable for MS frame, there is a chance that an extremely small amount is present in MS frame.

User avatar
yazi88
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
Posts: 1186
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:53 am
Location: Michigan

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:26 pm

Interesting... I didn't know Gusion Rebake used the module of the Graze cockpit (I thought it was a Man Rodi cockpit module) but it would make sense they would've been able to salvage either the Grazes they took down on Mars (ground or space) and use the Man Rodi's AV system/seat.

Did they replace or upgrade the Barbatos/Lupus's cockpit during any overhauls (whether to form 4 or Lupus) or did they just upgrade the internal parts along with stabilizing the AV system?

E08
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:00 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by E08 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:32 pm

The only change to Barbatos cockpit I can remember is that Lupus Rex cockpit hatch is front opening instead of its predecessors' top opening due to Mikazuki's worsens disabilities.

User avatar
yazi88
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
Posts: 1186
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:53 am
Location: Michigan

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:32 am

The reason I asked is that I think in the 1st ep of S2 when Mika is activating the Lupus in space before freefalling onto Mars, the inside of the cockpit looks a bit different, maybe more modern compared to the kind of dirty and rundown version in the 1st season, cause the Teiwaz logo pops up too in the bootup screen. Although I think it was cleaned up and optimized when upgraded to the 4th form...

User avatar
SonicSP
OMG Doomsday Laser
Posts: 1337
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by SonicSP » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:13 am

E08 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:47 pm
Well, the rare metal term ‘希少金属’ is also used in the HG manual’s Bael Sword profile when describing its material. It is possible that the HG manual writers got their information wrong. Another possibility is that if the M&W2 book did not explicitly say that the rare metal is used only for weapons, or that it is unsuitable for MS frame, there is a chance that an extremely small amount is present in MS frame.
Do you remember which spelling/word was used in the HG Reginlaze Julia manual? I recall that one is supposed to be the same type as the one used in Grimgerde's swords, or implied to be. And do you remember whether the Barbatos Lupur Rex's claws uses the same spelling as that one too?

I haven't gotten to read the claws section yet so I'm curious on the terms they use. In English it all sounds very similar.

E08
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:00 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by E08 » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:49 am

SonicSP wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:13 am
Do you remember which spelling/word was used in the HG Reginlaze Julia manual? I recall that one is supposed to be the same type as the one used in Grimgerde's swords, or implied to be. And do you remember whether the Barbatos Lupur Rex's claws uses the same spelling as that one too?

I haven't gotten to read the claws section yet so I'm curious on the terms they use. In English it all sounds very similar.
The term ‘希少金属’ is used for the Julian Swords in HG Reginlaze Julia manual, and in two of the source books (Doc 2, M&W 2) for Lupus Rex's claws. The other two books said nothing about the claws. About the Julian Swords using the same rare metal as the Grimgerde's swords, that originated from Kanetake Ebikawa's tweet, and was also in the annotated line arts for the suit which appears in the M.Works' MS profile.

What is interesting is the Kimaris Vidar's sword - HG manual described it in similar terms as the Bael Swords that is rare metal (希少金属) used in MS frame, the M.Work 2 used '高硬度レアアロイ', and M&W 2 combine both - '希少金属高硬度レアアロイ' and noted that this material is used in MS frame, etc. Go figure!

User avatar
SonicSP
OMG Doomsday Laser
Posts: 1337
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by SonicSP » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:33 am

E08 wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:49 am
What is interesting is the Kimaris Vidar's sword - HG manual described it in similar terms as the Bael Swords that is rare metal (希少金属) used in MS frame, the M.Work 2 used '高硬度レアアロイ', and M&W 2 combine both - '希少金属高硬度レアアロイ' and noted that this material is used in MS frame, etc. Go figure!
Wow that is quite the mess. Looks like, as is sometimes the case in these types of side source materials, the term usage is all over the place in different publications.

Personally my own interpretation is that it would make the most sense if Bael's swords, Grimgerde's blades, Rex's claws and Reginlaze Julia's blades were the "super mega hard to find" rare metal (希少金属) given the yellow color.

And then the mobile suit frames and weapons (including the Deinsleifs I guess) using the "relatively common" high hardness rare alloy (高硬度レアアロイ).

Really wish they'd just given the each material proper names in the first place and avoided us the problem, lolololol.

Anyways thanks a lot for clarifying.

amagee2100
Mecha Flunky
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:46 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by amagee2100 » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:08 am

SonicSP wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:33 am

Wow that is quite the mess. Looks like, as is sometimes the case in these types of side source materials, the term usage is all over the place in different publications.

Personally my own interpretation is that it would make the most sense if Bael's swords, Grimgerde's blades, Rex's claws and Reginlaze Julia's blades were the "super mega hard to find" rare metal (希少金属) given the yellow color.
In a weird way, I'm super happy that things have become confused because, as a result, more people are heading toward this interpretation of the yellow alloy in use amongst various suits being the same material. It's been my personal opinion since it all began but the available evidence back led me to be an outlier.

I do wish that there wasn't so much ambiguity with this kind of stuff, however.

User avatar
SonicSP
OMG Doomsday Laser
Posts: 1337
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by SonicSP » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:43 am

E08 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:35 am
The twin Ahab Reactors’ excessive output is not for normal usage, rather it is for a burst of power during the few opportunities available to land a clean hit on the MA. To maximize these opportunities to deal a lethal blow to the MA, the amount of energy instantaneously transferred to the weapon must be as large as possible.
This seems to make sense based on the anime, and I suspected as such so it's nice to see confirmation of it. All those times where we see Mikazuki go into berserk mode with the red eyes in Season 2 clearly was more than just extra precisions, there's a lot more raw output there as well. It would be weird if it wasn't the case.

That said, I think that the twin reactors also give above average output in normal situations as well based on the anime. In Tekkadan's battle against Turbelenz, the Barbatos' output was a lot lower due to them not synchronizing the reactors in maintanence and it was seen to have greatly lowered Barbatos' performance including Mikazuki having lower anti-G force as noted in dialogue.

Still, the idea that there is a "Burst Mode" of sorts meant for special situation makes perfect sense. Those clearly were "only with Gundam Frames (TM)" moments.

The only time I wonder whether there is an increase in output is the battle against Graze Ein. Mikazuki tapped into Barbatos at the moment (and asked it for everything it got) and got higher Alaya-Vijnana levels but I wonder there was also higher reactor output levels as well? Unlike the Season 2 moments, the increase in raw power is less obvious since Mikazuki also leveraged higher level of precision as as well as a change in tactics (purging extra armor, using Ein's own force against him, "learning" how to sword).

I wonder whether this is a "extra power" twin drive moment or just Mikazuki leveraging existing output with more precision and awareness. Since there are parallels between Edmonton and Hashmal (in relations to the limiters involved anyways), it certainly sounds like there could be some extra power being used there.

==========

On a general note, personally I wished to see some of the downsides to the twin reactor frame more often in the show. That means more moments where it was seen to be a double edged sword in practice. We know by side info that they are a pain to maintain and keep syhronize and this was why they didn't make many of them (the other reason being they are hard to make even in the more advanced age).

Kinda like 00 Gundam in the first ten episodes of Gundam 00 Season 2. Clearly a powerful ace machine due to the new experimental system but the same system brought its own set of drawbacks that aren't present in normal machines.

Based on how IBO Gundams actually work in the anime, seems more like they work well as long as you enough higher than average people and resources to maintain them. Could just be that it was unattainable after they go above the 72 units by Proto Gjallahorn, so no more marginal benefit above that with the resources that they did have.

Might also partly explain why they used 80% Gundams on the surface battles of the Calamity War. Could be that they don't have the resources to maintain anything else except Deinsleifs and small number of other things.

User avatar
Deathzealot
HiMAT Spammer
Posts: 873
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:08 am
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Contact:

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by Deathzealot » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:12 am

You know I noticed that the Pile Driver Mace that the Barbatos was originally equipped with bears some resemblance to the Dainsleif. I wonder if they are related.

E08
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:00 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by E08 » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:14 am

SonicSP wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:43 am
E08 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:35 am
The twin Ahab Reactors’ excessive output is not for normal usage, rather it is for a burst of power during the few opportunities available to land a clean hit on the MA. To maximize these opportunities to deal a lethal blow to the MA, the amount of energy instantaneously transferred to the weapon must be as large as possible.
This seems to make sense based on the anime, and I suspected as such so it's nice to see confirmation of it. All those times where we see Mikazuki go into berserk mode with the red eyes in Season 2 clearly was more than just extra precisions, there's a lot more raw output there as well. It would be weird if it wasn't the case.
...
If I didn't remember wrongly, one of the books noted that the red eyes simply signify that the safety system of the AV system is switched off, exposing the pilot to dangerously high amount of data. None of the books noted that red eyes = increased output.

The anime did mention an output limiter when the Gusion Rebake Full City stalled during the confrontation with Hashmal. But it also noted that this limiter was already off when Gusion stalled, and Gusion has no red eyes then.
Deathzealot wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:12 am
You know I noticed that the Pile Driver Mace that the Barbatos was originally equipped with bears some resemblance to the Dainsleif. I wonder if they are related.
AFAIK, nope. Also, the Flauros' dainsleif show that it can come in different shapes.

E08
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 607
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:00 am

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by E08 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:30 am

Up next – Graze and Reginlaze Frame.

Graze Frame
M.Works: Excellent operability, energy efficiency and realized high versatility. A design matured through 300 years of post war development; has its roots in the Calamity War era’s Valkyria Frame, and occurred via the development of the Geirail, etc.

Doc 2: A frame with high performance and producibility.

Graze
M.Works: After the Calamity War, with the performance required of weaponry changing, the Graze was born as a highly versatile machine that can be used in any situation, while taking into consideration producibility and operability. The normal barrel of the 120mm rifle has a sensor camera below the muzzle. The 9.8m battle axe is focused on power dealt in a single blow. Shield is 8.8m tall. The 320mm bazooka can be fired without being mounted on the dedicated shoulder mount rack, and its magazine carries 5 rounds.

Schwalbe Graze
M.Works: Has two main sensor cameras on its head (the yellow parts), and a small sensor camera at the back (between the blue and gray part).

Graze Ritter
Doc 2: The standard Graze Ritter in S2 also has optimized ground performance like McGillis' Graze Ritter Commander Type.

M&W 2: Graze Ritters with a silver color scheme are among the MS defending the Gjallarhorn’s earth HQ and defeated by Barbatos Lupus Rex.

Graze Ground Type
M.Works: Armor on the thigh, legs, etc is lightened. Each rotatable grip of the Gr-E03 Ground use Booster Unit has a vernier at their base.

Schild Graze
M&W 2: Has a characteristic chin guard, and is equipped primarily for close combat. Main mission is to suppress city and enemy base under gravity.

Hloekk Graze
M.Works: After the battle of Edmonton, the various economic blocs scrambled to secure their defensive capabilities. To calm this movement down and to meet the blocs’ demands, Gjallarhorn supplied this low cost version of the Graze to various nations. Besides simple controls, its structure and weapons are also further simplified from the Graze. The Arbrau Defense Forces is the first to deploy the machine. Its enlarged head unit has an integrated weapons bay with four missile hatches at the top surface of the head, and can be loaded with missiles (referred to as head missiles), signal flare, etc. Weapons include small axe and a submachine gun with movable main and sub grips. Cockpit hatch flip open backwards, opposite of the Graze’s. Deployed by Gjallarhorn as an accompanying unit to the Dainsleif Type Graze, and carries 4 Dainsleif warheads (identified as KEP bullets) for the latter.

Doc 2: The head missiles are small missiles, cannot deal serious damage to MS, but are effective against MW.

M&W 2: A variant of the Graze, it is an export model that Gjallarhorn developed for the economic blocs. It is smaller due to the use of a simplified frame, and this affected its performance, causing it to be inferior to the Graze. Although a monkey model, it does have reasonable equipment such as a head unit with integrated weapons bay, and display sufficient performance for the economic blocs that are inexperienced in fighting. The commander of the Outer Earth Orbit Regulatory Joint Fleet, McGillis Fareed, pushed for its distribution. However, within Gjallarhorn, views on whether to export a model bearing the Graze’s name are divided. Despite having no relations to its performance, the use of the Graze name might serve as a deterrent by itself. In light of the McGillis Fareed Incident, the opportunity for the economic blocs to maintain their own military arms has been reduced, making Hloekk Graze’s future development uncertain.

As a low cost machine, the Hloekk Graze is not really geared for combat. However, it is adequate for reloading the Dainsleif warheads. 90mm submachine gun is a compact MS use weapon. The small axe is smaller than the Graze’s battle axe, can be mounted on waist rack. Shares the same cockpit system as Gjallarhorn’s other MS, but differs in how the seat moves when boarding/unboarding.

Dainsleif type Graze (no English name yet)
M.Works: A unique machine that specializes in using Dainsleif, has a Dainsleif firing mechanism on the left arm. It is deployed alongside the Hloekk Graze, which carries its ammunition. Its sensor is enhanced for long range shooting. Dainsleif is an ultra long-range weapon, and the Graze’s head-mounted eye sensor is exposed only when firing the weapon. This sensor is for targeting and its lens can slide forward. The Dainsleif’s cooling and electrical discharge blades flip open during firing, and a side grip is available for the right arm. The Dainsleif’s projectile is identified as KEP bullet.

M&W 2: In fear of it falling into the hands of other powers, Gjallarhorn banned the Dainsleif after the war. However, they still maintain a system that can operate the weapon in case of unexpected situations such as a resurrection of MA. This specialized Graze variant is the system in question. A mobile turret, it is customized for ultra long range shooting. Besides the electromagnetic launcher for firing the Dainsleif that replaced the suit’s left arm, this Graze variant also has a unique protruding sensor mounted in its head. This sensor has a distant sighting camera and is specifically for precise long range shooting. Due to the size of the Dainsleif’s projectiles, the Graze itself cannot reload it, so an accompanying unit does the reloading.

2nd C: Dainsleif projectile is listed as ‘Special KEP Bullet’. Used for long-range suppression, Arianrhod Fleet is noted to have around 40-60 such Grazes. The head-mounted camera eye adjusts based on the distance between the suit and the target.

Regal Lily
M.Works: The Bellows Axe is a large close combat weapon; its blades are linked together via extendable parts that can move flexibly. Can deliver a strong blow via centrifugal force.

Reginlaze Frame
M.Works: A further development of the Graze Frame, it retains the Graze’s high level of completion, and is modified with anti-MS combat in mind (fitted with high performance sensor, and joints with a high degree of freedom). Its frame structure reverts to one that resembles the Valkyria Frame’s.

M&W2: More sophisticated and optimized than the Graze Frame. Joint parts such as the shoulders and thighs that require large torque are ball shaped. In comparison to the Graze Frame’s large, single-eye head sensor, Reginlaze Frame has a triple, composite eye-type sensor instead.

Reginlaze
M.Works: With the breakthrough made by Tekkadan, Gjallarhorn reaffirmed the importance of anti-MS battle, and Reginlaze was developed based on a concept of high output, heavy equipment and heavy firepower. Using the rifle as the base, the multi weapon pack has a variety of uses and multiple weapons such as the sword unit, gauntlet, grenade launcher and rocket launcher can be attached or exchanged. Rocket launcher can replace the rifle’s normal barrel. Like the Graze’s rifle, the magazines of Reginlaze’s rifle are the rectangular blocks on the sides.

M&W2: Graze was once thought of as the completed form of Gjallarhorn’s MS development concept. Unlike the MS used in Calamity War, the mainstay MS used by the peacekeeping Gjallarhorn is meant to serve as a deterrent with its existence alone, and is developed to maintain a stable performance irrespective of the differences in pilots’ skills. However, the rise of Tekkadan forced a rethink. Up till then, Gjallarhorn’s MS development focused on improving a set of concepts including machine performance, operability and usage. However, all these are meaningless in front of Tekkadan’s Gundam Frame. The three main goals behind the development of the Reginlaze, which is meant to have improved anti-MS combat capabilities, are heavier firepower, heavier equipment and high output. Furthermore, the strength of the MS frame was recalculated, feedback from past data was also included, and the Graze Frame’s strong points (the low parts count, ease of maintenance and cost performance) were maintained. The Reginlaze can better adapt to the individual needs of its pilots than the Graze. An example of this is Julieta’s unit, which is a close combat machine with improved output and mobility. The high mobility Reginlaze Julia, which uses the Reginlaze as a base, is a further development of this concept. After the McGillis Fareed incident, the Reginlaze participated in Gjallarhorn’s ceremonies as a symbol.

The underside of the Reginlaze’s fingertips can flip down up for precision operations. The side skirt armor and shoulder armor are called shield units. By fitting various equipment on the rifle’s main body, it becomes a weapon pack that can be use for shooting to close range combat. The rifle with the normal barrel, sword unit and gauntlet is known as ‘Rifle Sword Mode’. Switching out the sword unit for a grenade launcher and this is the ‘Rifle Mode’. The 130mm rifle is designed with anti-MS combat in mind and is more powerful due to its larger caliber. The heel flaps are deployed when the Reginlaze is stationed in the hangar, increasing the contact area with the ground and help to stabilize the machine. The backpack is identified as ‘space use booster’, and has a similar arm-like connection to the suit’s back as the Graze, but the thruster unit is now covered in armor. The arm-like connection has additional movable axis, allowing for flexible movements. Commander-use version of the machine has a blade antenna on its head for long-range communication. Although the current number of Reginlaze is low, a commander type is still prepared in preparation for succeeding the Graze.

2nd C: The Reginlazes seen in ep 50 (when mentioning the reformed Gjallarhorn) are in ceremonial configuration. For the Reginlaze, which focused on heavy firepower, heavy equipment and high output, its most representative weapon is the multi-weapon pack. The backpack is also listed here as ‘space use booster’ and described as an added back-mounted propulsion unit originally for space use, but can also be used for ground combat. Noted to often lead the Grazes in the front lines.

Iok’s Reginlaze
M.Works: Customized for long-range support. The magazine of the long-range railgun is the box mounted on the rear skirt, fed to the railgun via a magazine belt. It is one of the weapons developed during the weapon research for the newly developed Reginlaze.

M&W2: Specialized for long-range support, different from the melee combat specialized Julieta’s unit, and this show the flexibility of the Reginlaze’s concept. The specialization of the Iok’s Reginlaze is suggested by Iok’s subordinates, who did not want to send their master to the dangerous front line. The use of the Knight Blade strongly reflects Iok’s character.

Julieta’s Reginlaze
M.Works: Customized for close combat. The twin pile is an integrated weapon containing a pike (the tip) for piercing enemy machine, a shield (the front guard piece) and a wire anchor (the bottom).

M&W2: To fit Julieta’s battle style, her Reginlaze is customized as a high output, high mobility, close combat machine. Its external appearance is identical to the normal Reginlaze, but it has a commander type model number, EB-08s, due to differences in specifications. The effectiveness of the concept behind Julieta’s Reginlaze (or Reginlaze in general, unclear which) and her talent as a MS pilot can be seen from the suit’s ability to hold its own against Gundam Barbatos Lupus. Although the Twin Piles is a weapon currently in prototype stage, in reality, it is custom equipment for the Julieta’s Reginlaze.

2nd C: The shoulder armor is also noted here as shoulder shields. Odd claim (or likely error) here, Julieta’s reginlaze is stated to have forearm-mounted autocannons.

Reginlaze Julia
M.Works: The suit’s concept revolves around maximizing its mobility and output. Instead of the standard manipulators, the suit has claws for used together with the Julian Swords. When using normal weapons, the Reginlaze’s standard manipulators replace the claws. In Whip mode, the Julian Swords’ trajectory can be manipulated by electronic signals, allowing for unpredictable attacks. The suit’s leg structure is based on the Reginlaze Frame, and has integrated thruster unit. Leg claws are revealed when the leg thruster units are repositioned, and can be used for close combat or for usage on the ground. The thrusters mounted within the leg claws are for braking as well as course correction. The leg claws and the leg thruster unit’s pointed tip can be used together as landing gears. The final battle version is equipped with custom large blade and a custom large shield. A normal Reginlaze hand holds the blade. The shield stores an anchor.

M&W2: Gjallarhorn developed the Reginlaze in response to intensified anti-MS combat, but the power of the Gundam Frame exceeded expectation. With the development team lead by Arianrhod Fleet’s Chief Engineer, Yamazin Toka, as its core, work began on improving the Reginlaze’s performance. The high output, high mobility combat use Reginlaze Julia was born as a result. Naming a MS after its pilot’s name is quite an established convention in Gjallarhorn. The Reginlaze Julia’s sacrifice of ease of piloting for higher performance is close to the Gundam Frame’s concept. In addition to the main thrusters on the extended leg frame, thrusters are also added to various body parts, and they increased the suit’s mobility to the performance limit of the MS frame. To fit the pilot’s sensations, it is not uncommon to extend the MS’ limbs, and this is proven to be effective by the Graze Ein. Although the Reginlaze Julia is primarily developed for space combat, it is still based on the Reginlaze frame, thus by exchanging some of its components, it can also adapt to ground combat or other combat situations.

Like the suit’s name, Julian Sword is named after Julieta. The Julian Swords are space use weapons that do not affect the suit’s exceptional high mobility. In whip mode, the swords can launch close combat attacks while the suit moves at high speed. The Julian Swords’ wires can extent to a certain degree. As the suit is designed to use its Julian Swords in high-speed combat and no other weapons, it is equipped with claws on its hands instead of manipulators. The claws maintain a minimal level of manipulator-like functions. The claws at the tip of the large shield used by the final battle version can be used for assaulting the enemy. The shield also has Vulcans on the underside for restraining/containment, and a wired anchor stored in the middle of the claws’ base.

2nd C: Shields (Binders) are mounted on various parts of the suit’s body, with the shoulder binders having Vulcan guns. In the final battle version, the leg structure and mechanisms remain unchanged, and the suit is capable of high speed combat via hovering.

User avatar
SonicSP
OMG Doomsday Laser
Posts: 1337
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2009 6:38 am
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by SonicSP » Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:58 pm

Speaking of the Graze, Page 97 of Mechanics and World 2 says that unlike the Calamity War machines that have are still being used after hundred of years, the Gjallahorn machines are the only new line of mobile suits that still continues. Around 4-5 machines have been developed since the end of the war with each serving around 50 years by simple calculation.

(which makes sense I guess, 50 x 4 or 50 x 5 would equal 200 or 250 years. Add in a few extra decades here and there and maybe some pauses and you can get roughly 300 years)

========

While we probabaly guessed even before Season 2 that they were a few generations in between Valkyria Frame and the Graze Frame, it's nice to see an actual acknowledgement of the rough number of generations as well as an approximate time of deployment in the actual text.

It also put some things into context I guess. One of the Graze manuals noted that there was some opposition towards developing the next generation machine because the Graze were really really good (before Tekkadan showed up, trashed them and ignited a mobile suit arms race I guess).

I presume the opposition noted in the manuals stopped after that, with thr Reginlaze appearing and be better designed for anti-MS combat. It's nice to see this mini narrative come together.

User avatar
yazi88
Okawara x Katoki Love Child
Posts: 1186
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:53 am
Location: Michigan

Re: The Official Gundam Iron-Blooded Orphans Mecha Thread Mk III

Post by yazi88 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:59 pm

Isn't the Hyakuren and the rest of its development line also a new line of mobile suits after the Calamity War? I believe the Hyakuren blueprints were made during the Calamity war but was not actually developed.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest