OYW MS questions

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MythSearcher
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Re: OYW MS questions

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:22 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:Zeon's amphibious mobile suits used open-cycle water-cooled reactors (ie, they just ran seawater through the system to cool it down, then dumped the now-heated seawater out behind them), which is what allowed them to make the reactor strong enough to power beam weapons without e-caps. But it also means that they definitely wouldn't be able to operate in space, above and beyond the fact that, as purely terrestrial models, they have no thrusters of verniers to maneuver in space anyway.
This is the reason why I don't particularly like MS Igloo for making really strange things like the Ze'Gok.
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msiglo ... m-07di.htm

Using a Zaku or Dom will make much more sense.

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Re: OYW MS questions

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:15 pm

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:35 pm
Zeon's amphibious mobile suits used open-cycle water-cooled reactors (ie, they just ran seawater through the system to cool it down, then dumped the now-heated seawater out behind them), which is what allowed them to make the reactor strong enough to power beam weapons without e-caps. But it also means that they definitely wouldn't be able to operate in space, above and beyond the fact that, as purely terrestrial models, they have no thrusters of verniers to maneuver in space anyway.
I'm pretty sure your cooling system description only applied for the MSM-03 Gogg, or at least was replaced by the Z'gok's fan-cooling system in later MSM series models.
MythSearcher wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:22 pm
This is the reason why I don't particularly like MS Igloo for making really strange things like the Ze'Gok.
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msiglo ... m-07di.htm

Using a Zaku or Dom will make much more sense.
As for the MSM-07Di, for me it made sense that they used a MS that is meant to move in that position, which I liked to call a MSM's underwater cruising mode (which also involves collapsing the extendable arms and legs of some MSM models). Besides the 360º view of the Z'gok proving to be a valuable asset for moving in such position, and the there's no need to be concerned about the lack of verniers since the whole bottom half and backpack of the Ze'gok have been replaced with new components. Also, as an added bonus it gets a proper ranged beam weapon at the time, which is right before the Gelgoog begins deployment.

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Re: OYW MS questions

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:48 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:15 pm
As for the MSM-07Di, for me it made sense that they used a MS that is meant to move in that position, which I liked to call a MSM's underwater cruising mode (which also involves collapsing the extendable arms and legs of some MSM models). Besides the 360º view of the Z'gok proving to be a valuable asset for moving in such position, and the there's no need to be concerned about the lack of verniers since the whole bottom half and backpack of the Ze'gok have been replaced with new components. Also, as an added bonus it gets a proper ranged beam weapon at the time, which is right before the Gelgoog begins deployment.
I am not quite sure about that.
Underwater MS optical sensors don't need to be that great since the visibility underwater won't be good.
Most of them will be relying on sonar instead.
Also, in space combat, the best orientation the MS is meant to move in is that. You have a smallest projection against the front, which is usually where the enemy is at, so it minimize the chance of being seen and being hit by enemy fire. We do see a lot of scenes where MS combat usually in a stand up position, but those are usually just for looking cool, in a more real life situation, they should at least make more use of the side profile even if not diving head first against the enemies.
In fact, we also have quite some scenes showing space faring MS moving head first, in MSG for example, the Zakus do seem to be doing just that before entering combat.

For the beam weapon, I'd say just use a beam bazooka with a Rick Dom. The length of that weapon look like it will handle the range much better.

But any way, wouldn't it make just that much more sense to strap only the head and cockpit of the MS to the weapon packs? It'd be lighter, more aerodynamic and smaller in projection so harder to hit?

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Re: OYW MS questions

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:54 pm

The mono-eye itself could just be replaced with a better suited one and use the same camera rail. After all, in MS Igloo we saw how even things like the OP-02C also use mono-eyes, so there should be plenty of specialized types that also use rails.

That being said, the MSM-07 Z'gok series in particular (specially the first models) were designed with a large focus on land combat, a fact that can be easily observed on the weapon loadout of the first MSM-07, which consisted on a mega particle gun and head missile launchers, which were of limited usefulness while underwater, opposed to the MSM-07E's head torpedo launchers.

Also, while Zakus and Dom can indeed move in an almost horizontal position in space, they still need to turn around for being able to observe in a different direction, specially towards their back, while a Z'gok could essentially remain in the same position and keep looking around in a 360º view.

I don't think a beam bazooka would be a good idea, or at least not as a handheld alternative, since such large and heavy weapon would most likely affect the balance of the unit, specially if equipped only on one side of the unit.

All that being said, I do agree that perhaps a more specialized design, not directly based on anything else, might have worked better, but I supposed the whole point of using an existing design as a base is to save time and resources by not starting from zero, even if the design may end up with some flaws as a result. After all, it would seem that the Mobile Diver was an idea Zeon cooked up rather quickly in response to the EF beginning to launch its rebuilt fleet into space. This can be observed best in the evolution of its weapon layouts, which started with a simple container for large missiles, then switched to a multi-missile launcher, and finally changed to a specialized beam weapon.

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Re: OYW MS questions

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:35 am

Well looking at the Tech News there building Psychomm units in Minnesota. https://cse.umn.edu/news-release/univer ... -the-mind/

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Re: OYW MS questions

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:27 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:54 pm
The mono-eye itself could just be replaced with a better suited one and use the same camera rail. After all, in MS Igloo we saw how even things like the OP-02C also use mono-eyes, so there should be plenty of specialized types that also use rails.

That being said, the MSM-07 Z'gok series in particular (specially the first models) were designed with a large focus on land combat, a fact that can be easily observed on the weapon loadout of the first MSM-07, which consisted on a mega particle gun and head missile launchers, which were of limited usefulness while underwater, opposed to the MSM-07E's head torpedo launchers.

Also, while Zakus and Dom can indeed move in an almost horizontal position in space, they still need to turn around for being able to observe in a different direction, specially towards their back, while a Z'gok could essentially remain in the same position and keep looking around in a 360º view.

I don't think a beam bazooka would be a good idea, or at least not as a handheld alternative, since such large and heavy weapon would most likely affect the balance of the unit, specially if equipped only on one side of the unit.

All that being said, I do agree that perhaps a more specialized design, not directly based on anything else, might have worked better, but I supposed the whole point of using an existing design as a base is to save time and resources by not starting from zero, even if the design may end up with some flaws as a result. After all, it would seem that the Mobile Diver was an idea Zeon cooked up rather quickly in response to the EF beginning to launch its rebuilt fleet into space. This can be observed best in the evolution of its weapon layouts, which started with a simple container for large missiles, then switched to a multi-missile launcher, and finally changed to a specialized beam weapon.
Come to think of it, yes, the monoeye should be able to interchange as long as they use the same standard.
So the 3200m sensor range of older units can well be replaced by higher numbers when newer models are out.
That likely limits to the MS though, in the G20 material, they had a picture showing the moneye size difference of the MS-06 and the MA-05, which is pretty funny that the size differ so much.

The only problem I can think of is the scan speed of the 3D image.
Unlike the twin eye config, which can take 2 offset image at once and process it to get 3D imagery, the moneye have to take 1 image first, then move a little bit to take the second image and use those to process. So the speed limit is likely the speed of the rail instead of just the camera speed. Considering the speed of digital imagery nowadays, that is very likely the case, since the eye movement is not likely to get much faster with the same hardware.

The MSM-07 series indeed have a lot of designs for it to give better ground combat results, but it is still not comparable to the MS-06 Zaku line in ground combat according to Encyclopeadia Ver. 1.5, so I doubt it to be better in sensing range. The covered area and angle, I always assume the head can turn 360 degrees(or at least close to 180 to both left and right, not a full 360 turn but close enough) and have the same coverage as the MSM-07. There will always be a lot of secondary sensors to cover the other angles anyway.

The using an existing design as a base actually isn't that useful, at least in real life, or I should say, at least proven to be false quite a lot of times. I guess people will still make similar mistakes in UC, so it can still well be the case in the mobile diver.
In a future that people are already building such highly modulized machines like mobile suits, the easiest and quickest way of building something is to use the standard modules as base. Similar to the idea of the mobile diver but a more rationale step, using just the modules instead of the whole thing can speed up design. For example, using only the body of the MSM-07, without hands and legs, and use the connectors to connect it to the weapon tank, should be much easier than designing an external fixture to strap it to the weapon tanks.
This is actually also a proven viable design method in UC, we do have things like the Apsaras using just a Zaku head(strange that it doesn't use the more advanced Gouf or Dom head), a Kampfer with only its upper body attached to a booster unit, and the simpliest of all, the Zaku tank. The EFSF also has its own similar designs, like the core block system is designed to do this kind of things, later we also see a Zeta Zaku.
These are still only examples taken before(real life time) MS Igloo, MSV-R Johnny Ridden's story even gave a pretty thorough setting about how Zeon was able to design MS so fast, which is the highly modulized design system they are using.

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Re: OYW MS questions

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:10 am

MythSearcher wrote:
Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:27 am
Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:54 pm
The mono-eye itself could just be replaced with a better suited one and use the same camera rail. After all, in MS Igloo we saw how even things like the OP-02C also use mono-eyes, so there should be plenty of specialized types that also use rails.

That being said, the MSM-07 Z'gok series in particular (specially the first models) were designed with a large focus on land combat, a fact that can be easily observed on the weapon loadout of the first MSM-07, which consisted on a mega particle gun and head missile launchers, which were of limited usefulness while underwater, opposed to the MSM-07E's head torpedo launchers.

Also, while Zakus and Dom can indeed move in an almost horizontal position in space, they still need to turn around for being able to observe in a different direction, specially towards their back, while a Z'gok could essentially remain in the same position and keep looking around in a 360º view.

I don't think a beam bazooka would be a good idea, or at least not as a handheld alternative, since such large and heavy weapon would most likely affect the balance of the unit, specially if equipped only on one side of the unit.

All that being said, I do agree that perhaps a more specialized design, not directly based on anything else, might have worked better, but I supposed the whole point of using an existing design as a base is to save time and resources by not starting from zero, even if the design may end up with some flaws as a result. After all, it would seem that the Mobile Diver was an idea Zeon cooked up rather quickly in response to the EF beginning to launch its rebuilt fleet into space. This can be observed best in the evolution of its weapon layouts, which started with a simple container for large missiles, then switched to a multi-missile launcher, and finally changed to a specialized beam weapon.
Come to think of it, yes, the monoeye should be able to interchange as long as they use the same standard.
So the 3200m sensor range of older units can well be replaced by higher numbers when newer models are out.
That likely limits to the MS though, in the G20 material, they had a picture showing the moneye size difference of the MS-06 and the MA-05, which is pretty funny that the size differ so much.

The only problem I can think of is the scan speed of the 3D image.
Unlike the twin eye config, which can take 2 offset image at once and process it to get 3D imagery, the moneye have to take 1 image first, then move a little bit to take the second image and use those to process. So the speed limit is likely the speed of the rail instead of just the camera speed. Considering the speed of digital imagery nowadays, that is very likely the case, since the eye movement is not likely to get much faster with the same hardware.

The MSM-07 series indeed have a lot of designs for it to give better ground combat results, but it is still not comparable to the MS-06 Zaku line in ground combat according to Encyclopeadia Ver. 1.5, so I doubt it to be better in sensing range. The covered area and angle, I always assume the head can turn 360 degrees(or at least close to 180 to both left and right, not a full 360 turn but close enough) and have the same coverage as the MSM-07. There will always be a lot of secondary sensors to cover the other angles anyway.

The using an existing design as a base actually isn't that useful, at least in real life, or I should say, at least proven to be false quite a lot of times. I guess people will still make similar mistakes in UC, so it can still well be the case in the mobile diver.
In a future that people are already building such highly modulized machines like mobile suits, the easiest and quickest way of building something is to use the standard modules as base. Similar to the idea of the mobile diver but a more rationale step, using just the modules instead of the whole thing can speed up design. For example, using only the body of the MSM-07, without hands and legs, and use the connectors to connect it to the weapon tank, should be much easier than designing an external fixture to strap it to the weapon tanks.
This is actually also a proven viable design method in UC, we do have things like the Apsaras using just a Zaku head(strange that it doesn't use the more advanced Gouf or Dom head), a Kampfer with only its upper body attached to a booster unit, and the simpliest of all, the Zaku tank. The EFSF also has its own similar designs, like the core block system is designed to do this kind of things, later we also see a Zeta Zaku.
These are still only examples taken before(real life time) MS Igloo, MSV-R Johnny Ridden's story even gave a pretty thorough setting about how Zeon was able to design MS so fast, which is the highly modulized design system they are using.
The issue is that until late in the war Zeon lacked a truly universal MS build system there was no real interchangeability between parts on a Zeonic made Zaku or Gouf,the Zimmid dom, and the MIP MS lines untill the UMP was enacted. MIP was involved in the project that built the MSM-07Di Ze'Gok along with the Principality of Zeon Army Engineering Division who were basically building units with existing units at the core late into the war. the units the 603 were testing during Apocalypse 0079 were recycled existing units acting as the control unit for an MA weapons container and the Oggo that was a worker pod with a clamp added to hold existing Zaku weapons and fire them through the hand plug. The Apsaras was actually expressly mentioned to have been built with Zaku II parts with the Final unit fixing it's power problems by using 3 existing Rick Dom II Reactors. The first two prototypes did have 4 zaku foot units attached to the corners acting as landing gear and as thruster mounts. By Zeta AE who acquired Zeonic was building both sides ms so attaching a Zaku II head to the neck swivel could have been easier as the cable connectors and the other mounts wold be the same beyond building a few adaptors.

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