Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad?

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Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad?

Post by False Prophet » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:51 pm

The Federation's Gunperry and Medea, and all of Zeon's atmospheric aircraft designs are ridiculous stuffs, designs which break not only the laws of aeronautic but common sense too.

So why then they are that badly designed? I mean, they did not apply even the basic physic law to them! And if you look at the maybe most well-designed atmospheric aircraft during the war, the TIN Cod (I still have a beef with locating the folding wings, however), it is purely conventional, if not outdated, in design. So that mean they were fully capable of making somewhat sound design.

I can understand that the education quality in Zeon is bad (in the show, Ral's men even once though they were hit by a new Federation weapon, while in reality their aircraft was simply struck by lightning. And it is not even a concern for real-life pilots.) But then why the Federation make bad designs too?

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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by azrael » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:17 pm

The show is called "Mobile Suit Gundam". That should be flashing neon light.
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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by Kuruni » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:56 pm

Plus, think of the purpose of Medea and Gunperry. They're carrier, toy carrier (a needless reminder, Clover didn't hire Okawara nor Tomino to design weapon). And The important thing is ability to keep smaller toy like Core Fighter inside while kids can pick it up, say "swoosh swoosh", and move it around. Boxy design is cheap to produce and get the jov done, so why not?
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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by Zeonista » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:48 pm

I actually like the Gunperry and Medea as STOL modular cargo transports. They look a little strange, but the idea definitely shows some appreciation of large USAF freight movers. They don't have to be graceful or streamlined, just be able to lift off and land with a load on board. The EFF designs reduce the aircraft to the amount necessary to handle the cargo container or MS skid.

The Gaw is definitely the C-5 Galaxy or C-17 Globemaster III on steroids. Maybe a credible space-age version of that Me-323 Gigant, if one really feels the need to flog the Space Nazi connection some more. :P But do we actually have monster aircraft that look barely capable of flight but can still haul a platoon of APCs to any point on the planet? Yes we do. Can we have a UC equivalent that can carry a MS platoon instead? Yes we can! Zeon doesn't need naval ships to transport MS, they have airships that can do it in a day. That is how you quickly transport MS on Earth. 8) There is even the smaller "Fat Uncle" version that can handle the smaller jobs with ease without having to whistle up one of the big boys.

(If I were a Feddy intel weeny in the OYW, I wouldn't waste my time counting Zakus, tanks, and all that. I would see where all the Gaws were being dispatched. That is most likely where Zeon is going to begin their big push.)

Now, as for fighter jets that quack...I got nuthin'. :lol:
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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:01 am

False Prophet wrote:I can understand that the education quality in Zeon is bad (in the show, Ral's men even once though they were hit by a new Federation weapon, while in reality their aircraft was simply struck by lightning. And it is not even a concern for real-life pilots.)
I think you are confused: Supposedly Ramba Ral's men had never been to Earth before and as such they were surprised by lightning, which doesn't occur in the colonies. I suppose that even if they did study about it on school, for spacenoids it would be a rather unremarkable and forgettable detail.

As for the Zeon aircraft designs, these excerpts from Mark's site should provide some background:
Zeon Aircraft Development

Basic formation of representative Zeon aircraft
Illustration: A formation of eight Dopp fighters, two Luggun reconnaissance planes, and one Gaw attack carrier.

The Gaw attack carrier, Dopp, and Luggun were distinguished by their unusual appearance. This was a consequence of the peculiar circumstances of their development inside space colonies.

In a space colony, there is almost no need for aircraft. Moreover, the interior of a colony which is at most 6.5 kilometers wide and 30 kilometers long and has roughly uniform air density isn't an environment one would choose for testing prototype machines. As a result, the Zeon forces had no choice but to combine existing aircraft technologies on a theoretical basis.

For example, in the case of the Dopp, a short fuselage was used to increase its maneuverability and a protruding domed canopy provided a wide field of vision, giving birth to its unorthodox design. In order to eliminate the instability produced by these measures, it goes without saying that it used advanced CCV (Control Configured Vehicle) technology.
Aerial Weapons

The Principality of Zeon, whose home was in the space colonies, had essentially no need for aircraft aside from human-powered aircraft for leisure purposes. Also, due to the effects of Coriolis forces and the uniform density of the atmosphere, it was impossible to adequately perform even gliding tests with aircraft. It's thus no exaggeration to say that Zeon aircraft were designed only with computer simulations, based as much as possible on existing aviation technology. Many of the Zeon aircraft born from theoretical advances had extremely peculiar appearances compared to those of the Federation Forces.

Examples of this would be machines like the Dopp, which had a large canopy designed for visual-range combat under Minovsky particle conditions, and a short fuselage for maximum maneuverability. There were numerous problems with its design and, in the terrestrial flight tests which began at the end of January, U.C. 0080, every single one of the first four prototypes crashed. But the military, which considered air power an absolute necessity, stuck to its plans, and a functional model was gradually developed over the course of three months of improvements. This improved model was equipped with attitude control verniers, compensating for inferior aerodynamic technology with the application of space engineering. Although they were still troubled by frequent instances of crashing in battle, these produced relatively satisfactory results in low-altitude combat.

Because high-thrust jet engines were installed in its small fuselage, which had an overall length of 7.2 meters and a dry weight of only 2.1 tons, the Dopp had a cruising range of just 1,200 kilometers and could only be used for local warfare. The Gaw attack carrier was developed in order to expand the operating radius of Dopps and mobile suits.

The Gaw had an overall length of 63 meters and a dry weight of 140 tons, and when loaded with three mobile suits and eight Dopps its fully equipped weight reached 980 tons. In order to make this huge mass fly and give it a cruising range sufficient to circle the Earth several times, the Gaw used 18 powerful nuclear thermal jet engines for propulsion, and the large thermonuclear reactors that powered it also enabled it to use three twin mega particle cannons.

Like the Dopp, the Gaw was developed without adequate testing, and even in full-speed flight it relied on downward jets for more than 30% of its lift. Moreover, because the mobile suit hangar doors were installed in the aircraft's nose, it had to reduce its speed to about 100 kilometers per hour when deploying mobile suits. This made it a perfect target for the Federation Forces.

On the other hand, the Federation Forces' many years of aircraft development history proved counterproductive, and their fighters seemed very much like relics of the age of radar and missiles that preceded the use of Minovsky particles. As a result, in battle they were no more than evenly matched against Zeon's Dopps, which were intended exclusively for visual-range combat.
Principality Forces Air Power

All the aircraft used by the Principality forces on Earth were designed via computer simulations, based on data from existing machines. This was due to the special circumstances of Side 3, which could not perform adequate flight tests inside its colonies, and as a result many of these machines had unique shapes unlike those of traditional aircraft. Because they were based only on theory, various problems arose during actual flight, but the Principality forces dealt with them by applying space technologies.

Gaw: An attack carrier used to transport mobile suits, whose ground movement capabilities were poor. It could carry three mobile suits and eight Dopps, and was armed with three twin mega particle cannons. It was also equipped with nuclear thermal jet engines, but due to its considerable weight, it relied on downward jets for 30 percent of its lift.

Dopp: An atmospheric fighter plane. It used apogee motors like those of a mobile suit to increase its maneuverability. Its small size, with an overall length of 9.2 meters and an overall width of 12.1 meters, was also a result of this emphasis on maneuverability.

Luggun: A reconnaissance plane equipped with two circular radar devices. However, it relied on visual observation by its crew.

Dodai YS: Although it was developed as a bomber, it could fly while carrying a mobile suit due to the considerable surp
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ntury.html
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/arch ... ble01.html

In short, Zeon aircraft were designed using computer simulation data (due to the impossibility of performing actual tests in the colonies) and space engineering. The Dopp is a prime example of the later, since it was equipped with verniers to increase it's maneuverability. The Gaw was mainly designed to overcome the Dopp's short range issue and also provide a means to transport MS. I should point out that recent depictions of the Gaw have rendered obsolete the idea about the Gaw deploying MS from the front, and particularly MS Igloo confirmed that they are ejected (and received in the case of the MSM-07DI) from the back hatch.

I should also point out that the Dodai was a result of the initial failure of the MS-07H series to produce a MS capable of flying under its own power (until the MS-07H8 at least) and the need to find more ways to overcome the low mobility problem of MS on the ground. After the initial Dodai YS, at least two more versions were produced during the OYW, a heavily armed one (the Dodai GA) and one emphasizing speed and maneuverability (the Dodai II). It remains uncertain if the Dodai Kai is another Zeon design captured by the EF.

In the end, the concepts of the Gaw and Dodai series would be inherited by the EF, whom in the later decades would base their aerial power on the Garuda and SFS units (Dodai Kai and Base Jabber), while traditional aircraft would fade into obscurity. Also, Zeon's aerial MAs, namely the Adzam and Apsaras, would inspire the EF to create its own mobile weapons also equipped with a Minovsky Craft System, such as the Psycho Gundam series.

One last thing: besides the Zanzibar proving to do a rather good job as a universal mobile cruiser, capable of operating on Earth and space alike, Zeon also intended to operate Gwazine class battleships within Earth's atmosphere, as it would be indicated by unsuccessful test to have a Gwazine class warship re-enter Earth's atmosphere during the conflict. Also, there are some mentions of another obscure Zeon battleship also capable of operating on Eartha and space alike: the King Of Dragon and its sister ship, the Kaiser Of Dragon:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=16849

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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:17 am

[quote="Gelgoog Jager"][/quote]

I think s/he means Zeon crafts are fine to be not aerodynamic, but the EFAF ones should not have that problem.

I think the Medea is pretty well designed if we ignore its cargo bay.
It actually looked like a real life aircraft.
The WWII Bomber carriers(carrying fighters),
The Soviet VVA-14, K-7.

Etc.

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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:59 am

A few more notes on Zeon aircraft:

Incidentally, despite its unorthodox design, the Dopp did inspire a few other aircraft, including an unused Dopp II from 0080/MS Era, the Dora transport plane seen in 08th MS Team and almost a century later the Overhead Hawk of the Zanscare Empire. Also, a smaller foldable version, the "Little Dopp" was created specifically for the MS-07W's core block system.

And speaking of foldable, some Zeon aircraft have foldable wings, for storing them more easily. The Dopp, the Dora and the Fat Uncle can all fold their wings to occupy less space as needed. IIRC the Fat Uncle was even shown to be able to fit in tight square hatches on the ground in a map from Zeonic Front when its wings were folded downwards.

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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by Erisie » Sun Dec 25, 2016 5:27 pm

If it is of any consolation to False Prophet or anyone else, Kazuhiza Kondo's manga series Vanishing Machine, makes a number of changes to some of the aircraft's designs. For starters, the Mongoose (MSV) is pretty much an A-10 Hog armed with a belly autocannon. There's also a Sukhoi-esque version of what would seem to be the FlyManta, some B-58 Hustlers (Kondo's take on the Depp Rogs?) and an F-16 lookalike that would seem to be Kondo's Fly Arrow.

There's a number of real-life machines in service for the EFF alongside their fictional brethren: Abrams MBTs, Leopard 1A5, M270 MLRS, Mitsubishi Type 89 IFV, et cetera.

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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by False Prophet » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:26 pm

Erisie wrote:If it is of any consolation to False Prophet or anyone else, Kazuhiza Kondo's manga series Vanishing Machine, makes a number of changes to some of the aircraft's designs. For starters, the Mongoose (MSV) is pretty much an A-10 Hog armed with a belly autocannon. There's also a Sukhoi-esque version of what would seem to be the FlyManta, some B-58 Hustlers (Kondo's take on the Depp Rogs?) and an F-16 lookalike that would seem to be Kondo's Fly Arrow.

There's a number of real-life machines in service for the EFF alongside their fictional brethren: Abrams MBTs, Leopard 1A5, M270 MLRS, Mitsubishi Type 89 IFV, et cetera.
Thanks. Now the EFF does look better in my eyes.

Also, Jaeger, in your first post you quoted that the EFF's aircrafts were obsolete in that they were mainly developed for beyond-visual-range combat, and the Minovsky particle rendered radars and missiles useless. However, at this point of the OYW, how much Minovsky particles are there on the atmosphere of Earth.

Minovsky reactor had yet to seen widespread use by the EFF before the War, especially for civilian purpose - It would wreck havoc to airliners, satellite, weather forecasting, and such! Zeon could of course spread the particles before any air engagement, but we have never seen this before, and the Dopp sure was neither equipped with Minovsky carrier, nor it usually worked beside MS.

On another note, anyone realize that there is an "Admiral Dopp" in the EFF? Was it coincidence or not that the Zeon named their fighter after an enemy?

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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by Erisie » Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:27 am

False Prophet wrote:Minovsky reactor had yet to seen widespread use by the EFF before the War, especially for civilian purpose - It would wreck havoc to airliners, satellite, weather forecasting, and such! Zeon could of course spread the particles before any air engagement, but we have never seen this before, and the Dopp sure was neither equipped with Minovsky carrier, nor it usually worked beside MS.
It is my understanding that Minovsky scattering only affects certain bands of the whole wide electromagnetic spectrum. Meaning that laser and other optical methods would be unaffected. Meaning, weather forecasting and commercial aviation would be using a mixture of LIDAR, infrared detection and plain old dead reckoning to have accurate numbers. Another thing to consider is that Terra itself has a fraction of the whole Earth Sphere's population. While the exact number is disputed, it seems to be far less than even today's total.
False Prophet wrote:On another note, anyone realize that there is an "Admiral Dopp" in the EFF? Was it coincidence or not that the Zeon named their fighter after an enemy?
You are probably thinking of Admiral Gopp.

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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by False Prophet » Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:04 am

False Prophet wrote:On another note, anyone realize that there is an "Admiral Dopp" in the EFF? Was it coincidence or not that the Zeon named their fighter after an enemy?
You are probably thinking of Admiral Gopp.[/quote]

My bad.

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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:14 pm

False Prophet wrote:Also, Jaeger, in your first post you quoted that the EFF's aircrafts were obsolete in that they were mainly developed for beyond-visual-range combat, and the Minovsky particle rendered radars and missiles useless. However, at this point of the OYW, how much Minovsky particles are there on the atmosphere of Earth.

Minovsky reactor had yet to seen widespread use by the EFF before the War, especially for civilian purpose - It would wreck havoc to airliners, satellite, weather forecasting, and such! Zeon could of course spread the particles before any air engagement, but we have never seen this before, and the Dopp sure was neither equipped with Minovsky carrier, nor it usually worked beside MS.
Short answer: the Gaw mothership would be the one spreading the Minvosky particles.

Long answer: ships are the common source for Minovksy particles in the Universal Century, but I would like to assume that any large bases and perhaps even some MAs should be also capable of spreading them.

In the case of the Dopp, it's short range might actually play on its favor by forcing it operate under the influence of the Minvosky particles spread by its Gaw mothership or its base, assuming the later fitted with the necessary equipment.

As a side note, Mark once posted that a ship needs to spread Minovsky particles for 20 minutes to reach combat density on a radius of 50 km. After two hours the radius is halved (25 km) and two hours later (4 after the initial spread) they only remain right next to the source. As for the actual effects: radar and guided weapons become useless within 20 km range and communications will be affected within a 40 km range.

For more info, check Mark's post:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 74#p342986

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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by BrentD15 » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:19 am

I'm flabbergasted that Zeon lacked the capacity to create testing environments for these aircraft.
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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:07 pm

well, an easy way of thinking is that Zeon was quite fixed to the idea of WWI era acrobatic dog fights.
Their line of thought jumped a bit too much when they decided to design around the idea of M particles, and no long range detection meaning only short range dog fights, and manoevrability is the most important spec, even more important than speed.

It is no surprise that of all countries participating WWII and have a fair share of fighter designing experience, Japan is the one over-emphasising manoevrability over speed(Well, that and their poor technology rendering them unable to design faster planes), while USA, UK, Germany basically all tried to design faster planes over more manoevrable ones. (I am not too sure about USSR, Stalin is not very fond of designing new planes to begin with and resulting in German Aces having absurdly high number of kills)

In real life, speed is proved to be the superior spec over manoevrability, even without missiles and using only machine guns.
That is why the biplanes are phased out, and jet planes replaced piston-cylinder propellor planes.
But I guess you really can't test out super sonic jets in a cylinder of 6.4km diameter and 32~42km length.
But

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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:46 pm

BrentD15 wrote:I'm flabbergasted that Zeon lacked the capacity to create testing environments for these aircraft.
As Mythsearcher mentioned, the problem is that the largest areas available for testing would the colonies themselves, which aside from their dimensions also likely came with other problems for testing aircraft, such as the diminishing gravity the closer you are to the central axis of the colony or if Unicorn to be believed, strong currents also around the center of the colony, in which Minerva was momentarily caught in when infiltrating Industrial 7.

Let's not forget that the development of amphibious MS also ran I to a dead end when using the colonies as testing ground, but Zeon managed to get better results after invading Earth and using proper testing environments.

I think that late designs such as the Dodai GA and Dodai II proved particularly to be quite good, the former having a large payload and the capacity to carry a MS, and the later having a great emphasis on its flight capabilities, with just of them being able to move around the Apsaras I. And of course there's the result of Zeon's MS-07H program, the MS-07H8, a flight capable MS.

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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad?

Post by Arbiter GUNDAM » Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:30 am

False Prophet wrote:
Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:51 pm
The Federation's Gunperry and Medea, and all of Zeon's atmospheric aircraft designs are ridiculous stuffs, designs which break not only the laws of aeronautic but common sense too.
Because it was 1979 and I very much doubt the designers knew about/cared two whits about aerodynamics.
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Re: Why did OYW atmospheric aircrafts were designed that bad?

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:19 pm

Arbiter GUNDAM wrote:
Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:30 am
Because it was 1979 and I very much doubt the designers knew about/cared two whits about aerodynamics.
I won't say that to include all designers, Valley of the Wind's Mowe is actually pretty aerodynamic and the model lifted off ground in front of my fan.
I guess Miyasaki Hayao is a pretty special case, but still...

BTW, Macross kinda cared about aerodynamics as well, at least they took the F-14 design as a base.

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