Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

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Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by TDR-10M Thunderbolt » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:42 pm

I have a few topics I'd love to hear some expert input on. We know the Silver Bullet is the result of Anaheim Electronics getting hold of a few salvaged/captured Doven Wolves... but how extensive is this use of captured 0088-era Zeon MS? More specifically, does the Federation use any of them?

They don't appear to do so in terribly high numbers, since spare Nemos, GM IIs, GM IIIs, and Jegans fill their roster out well from 0088 to 0096, but do they use any Neo Zeon machines in non-zero quantities? Like, do they field Dreissens or Schuzrum Diases or things like that? Or even some of the same Dooven Wolves that Anaheim got their hands on?

I've been really fond of how the Sleeves trotted out a lot of classics in 0096, and would love to hear if the Federation got in on that act too.

As a side question, how many Hyaku Shiki (the baseline model, the MSN-00100) units were produced? We know of one from Zeta, and I'm told a second was built during ZZ... but were there any more out there?

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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by bilbros » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:18 pm

Interesting question.
The first examples that come int my mind right now are the AMX-101 and AMX-10K deployed by the Raven Squad in the recent manga Mobile Suit Gundam U.C.0094: Across the Sky.
These units - painted in the distinctive black coloring of the team - are used in a series of mock fights against other Federation teams.

Other possible instances are the NZ-000 piloted by the special forces member Dan Krueger and seen in Masafumi Matsuura's manga Mobile Suit Gundam Reon (settled in U.C. 0107), and the Geara Doga Kai - actually a mix of AMS-119 and RGM-89 parts - used as a training aggressor unit by Sid Amber in the F90 storyline (U.C. 0120).

Besides these, I don't think there are several others models, at least not deployed in actual combat by regular Federation Forces.
You know, most of the EFF members seem to have a strong aversion for mono-eye styled mecha (with a notable exception for the Zeta-era ones)!
But jokes aside I imagine they simply don't have the need to field captured units, since they already have a lot of other "standard" choices, most of which available in an high number of exemplars and variants: GMs, Nemo, Nero, Zeta Plus, Jegan, Jesta, ReZEL and so on.

Comcerning the MSN-00100, I don't recall to have ever heard more than tow units of it.

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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:05 pm

After the Gryps Conflict the EF took a more drastic stance on removing Titans and zeonic-like weapons from their ranks. The most noticeable case I want to point out is the Byarlant, which was one of the few Titans MS design that actually sticked around, however, it required an otherwise unnecessary change of head: its mono-eye was replaced with a more traditional EF visor.

The disappearance of the Hizack and Alexandria class from the EF's ranks, despite the former seemingly becoming the new standard MS of the EF as a while as a replacement for the aging GM, is a further nod in that direction. I do have a pet theory that the real reason the Alexandria class was discontinued while the Dogosse Gier stayed, is because the former was most likely a captured Zeon design, or at the very least inspired in one as in the case of the Hizack. I base my suspicion on the existence of the Alexandria class ship Hario, which has a more organic appearance, green color scheme, better firepower, but oddly enough is relegated to the standard EF forces.

My guess is that the Hario is a captured Zeon ship from the OYW, most likely one that wasn't ready for deployment yet. After all, we are told that the Gwanban class was actually completed during the OYW, but it wasn't deployed in time for the final battle. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised that there were other warships being developed at the same time, specially one with better MS support facilities (namely MS launch catapults). Incidentally, the Zanzibar Kai form MSV-R essentially adds at the bottom of the ship what would essentially be a single side of the Alexandria's hangar + catapult section.

Last, but not least, the Dodai Kai also seems to have been abandoned in favor of the Base Jabber after the 1st Neo Zeon War, which could potentially also indicate that it was another captured Zeon design.

Ultimately, these drastic decisions forced the EF to continue relying on the GM II 9 years after the beginning of the Gryps War, a time when it was already deemed obsolete by newer MS. Even worse, they had to go back and remove the dust from the RAG-79, in order to have a non-Zeon amphibious MS.

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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by Wingnut » Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:52 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Ultimately, these drastic decisions forced the EF to continue relying on the GM II 9 years after the beginning of the Gryps War, a time when it was already deemed obsolete by newer MS. Even worse, they had to go back and remove the dust from the RAG-79, in order to have a non-Zeon amphibious MS.
This is also most likely why in spite of it only being used against them for the most part, the EFF adopted whatever Nemos that survived that they could get their hands on in order to fill ranks because the thing looks and acts like a more advanced GM II. Though late distribution of new MS could also be a factor as even when the CCA movie came out, the EFSF was still using GM IIIs because there weren't enough Jegans yet to go around.
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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:00 am

Actually, the GM III is probably the mainstay EF MS produced in lowest quantities. According to one of Mark's thread, one of the few figures given for it comes form B-CLUB issue 70, which claims that the total production run of the RGM-86R GM III as roughly 800 units, while that of the RGM-89 Jegan series as fewer than 3,000 units:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11881

As for the Jegan itself, it would seem that even as late as U.C. 0096 it remains a special forces exclusive unit. Despite being a common unit in the UC OVAs, its essentially only operated by Londo Bell, Ecoas, the General Revil garrison (also made up of RGZ-95C units), etc.

The few times we see the regular EF forces, such as those resupplying the Nahel Argama before the battle of Palau, or the defense forces at Dakar and Torrington, we see older models. In other words, the bulk of the regular EF forces are stuck with at most 800 GM III units, with a variety of older machines filling up the rest of their ranks, with the Nemo being the second best option.

And speaking of the Nemo, there's also an interesting detail to consider: despite its GM-like appearance and its capability to wield GM II weapons, internally the Nemo is more similar to a Zeon MS. In contrast, despite their Zeonic-like exterior, the Hizack and Barzam are internally more similar to the GM series. The Barzam in particular is designed as a cost-effective replacement for the GM II, though the war situation didn't allowed it to fulfill such role. In other words, keeping Nemos in the EF ranks probably means additional costs for maintaining units with little in common with the GM series.

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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by JEFFPIATT » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:30 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:Actually, the GM III is probably the mainstay EF MS produced in lowest quantities. According to one of Mark's thread, one of the few figures given for it comes form B-CLUB issue 70, which claims that the total production run of the RGM-86R GM III as roughly 800 units, while that of the RGM-89 Jegan series as fewer than 3,000 units:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=11881

As for the Jegan itself, it would seem that even as late as U.C. 0096 it remains a special forces exclusive unit. Despite being a common unit in the UC OVAs, its essentially only operated by Londo Bell, Ecoas, the General Revil garrison (also made up of RGZ-95C units), etc.

The few times we see the regular EF forces, such as those resupplying the Nahel Argama before the battle of Palau, or the defense forces at Dakar and Torrington, we see older models. In other words, the bulk of the regular EF forces are stuck with at most 800 GM III units, with a variety of older machines filling up the rest of their ranks, with the Nemo being the second best option.

And speaking of the Nemo, there's also an interesting detail to consider: despite its GM-like appearance and its capability to wield GM II weapons, internally the Nemo is more similar to a Zeon MS. In contrast, despite their Zeonic-like exterior, the Hizack and Barzam are internally more similar to the GM series. The Barzam in particular is designed as a cost-effective replacement for the GM II, though the war situation didn't allowed it to fulfill such role. In other words, keeping Nemos in the EF ranks probably means additional costs for maintaining units with little in common with the GM series.
The GM III started out as an Field Refit to the Kalibia adding the backpack from the RX-178 and improvements so it could be used in an support role providing more long range firepower without refitting it in to an RGC type. When the Cival war fully ended post first Neo Zeon war the equipment used by both "rebel" factions were merged in to the Fleet and the EFSF got most of the modern units while the EF ground forces got stuck with the hand me down units with the EFN being stuck using oyo era RAG units and the Land forces using an mix of Grypts era units with the Nemo being one of the better leftovers shipped to earth.

Most Recovered and Captured Neo Zeon units would be restricted to research deployments to collect data for improvements to new Federal MS or used as Aggressor units in Top Gun Training with the one unit we see in F90 being an RGM-89 fitted with Gera Doga parts so it would stay competitive and be easier to maintain [both being made by AE may have helped ] with out the bad press of letting AE still make Doga parts they could have issues getting safely to the EFSF.

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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by TDR-10M Thunderbolt » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:01 pm

That's actually really interesting. I hadn't considered that the Federation went on a big 'Zeon tech purge' from their ranks after that point in the timeline. Good info. Thank you!

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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:09 am

JEFFPIATT wrote:the EFSF got most of the modern units while the EF ground forces got stuck with the hand me down units with the EFN being stuck using oyo era RAG units and the Land forces using an mix of Grypts era units with the Nemo being one of the better leftovers shipped to earth.
That doesn't seem to be the case though. As I mentioned earlier, it would seem that the regular EF forces, whether they are stationed on Earth or space, are the ones stuck with older units, while special forces are given the preference for receiving newer units regardless of their location. To make my point, here are some of the special forces units that were on Earth during the Laplace conflict:

-The MS forces of the Garuda are all new RAS-96 Ankushas.
-The MS forces on board the Ra Cailum, currently stationed on Earth, includes the newest RGM-96X Jestas and one RGZ-91 Re-GZ.
-The MS forces defending the Cheyenne base include RGM-89D Jegans, MSZ-006A1 Zeta Plus and the very newest EF MS, the FD-03 Gustav Karl.

Regular EF forces are given outdated MS regardless of their location, including not only the GM IIIs guarding the resupply of the Nahel Argama before the assault on Palau, but even the forces defending Dakar itself, the EF's capital.

Likewise, every Jegan we saw belonged to a special forces: Londen Bell, Ecoas, the Cheyenne base (where control for Gryps 2 is located) defense garrison and the General Revil's MS forces. In short, by U.C. 0096 the Jegan series has yet to be adopted by the regular EF forces and remains a special forces exclusive unit.

As for the EFN, let's not forget that about the RMS-192M, which was produced by the EF using newer gundarium alloy armor and quite likely also using a Hizack frame like its brethren, the Marine Hizack. I'm sure the EFN wasn't meant to be equipped with obsolete RAG-79, specially after they produced their very own MS carrying submarine, the Juneau class, but rather updated Zaku Mariners.

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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by JEFFPIATT » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:01 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
JEFFPIATT wrote:the EFSF got most of the modern units while the EF ground forces got stuck with the hand me down units with the EFN being stuck using oyo era RAG units and the Land forces using an mix of Grypts era units with the Nemo being one of the better leftovers shipped to earth.
That doesn't seem to be the case though. As I mentioned earlier, it would seem that the regular EF forces, whether they are stationed on Earth or space, are the ones stuck with older units, while special forces are given the preference for receiving newer units regardless of their location. To make my point, here are some of the special forces units that were on Earth during the Laplace conflict:

-The MS forces of the Garuda are all new RAS-96 Ankushas.
-The MS forces on board the Ra Cailum, currently stationed on Earth, includes the newest RGM-96X Jestas and one RGZ-91 Re-GZ.
-The MS forces defending the Cheyenne base include RGM-89D Jegans, MSZ-006A1 Zeta Plus and the very newest EF MS, the FD-03 Gustav Karl.

Regular EF forces are given outdated MS regardless of their location, including not only the GM IIIs guarding the resupply of the Nahel Argama before the assault on Palau, but even the forces defending Dakar itself, the EF's capital.

Likewise, every Jegan we saw belonged to a special forces: Londen Bell, Ecoas, the Cheyenne base (where control for Gryps 2 is located) defense garrison and the General Revil's MS forces. In short, by U.C. 0096 the Jegan series has yet to be adopted by the regular EF forces and remains a special forces exclusive unit.

As for the EFN, let's not forget that about the RMS-192M, which was produced by the EF using newer gundarium alloy armor and quite likely also using a Hizack frame like its brethren, the Marine Hizack. I'm sure the EFN wasn't meant to be equipped with obsolete RAG-79, specially after they produced their very own MS carrying submarine, the Juneau class, but rather updated Zaku Mariners.
The purge of the RMS zeon style ms would have purged all of the remaining Mono-eye suits from the inventory of all of the EFF and any newly captured AMX units would have been relegated to data collection or as in the case of the Silver Bullet units given RX or RGM style heads if they were being deployed in combat. The purge did hit the Navy the hardest as there only upgrades in ms tech were RMS units where Zaku II equipment packs were fitted to RMS-106 frames only to get most captured by axis and the few still in EFN ownership being politically retired and the old RAG-79 units getting dragged out of retirement to replace them. The forced retirement of the Hi-zack would also explain why so many GM II units are still out there as when the RMS models got retired the units in the boneyard were reactivated to replace them when an Grypts era units from the AEUG was not around to fill the slot.

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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:04 pm

That's correct: both captured Zeon MS and RX units equipped with mono-eye sensors would be modified to give them a more traditional visor or Gundam eyes, as in the case of the Silver Bullet and Byarlant Custom. And as already pointed out, the Nemo was also adopted due to it's GM-like appearance despite being Zeon unit internally.

I should point out that this practice was also used by Zeon in sometimes, as in the case of the Gerbera Tetra rollout version and the Sinanju Stein. And as in the case of the Nemo, different groups of Zeon remnants ended up adopting the Hizack, Marasai and Barzam due to their "Zeonic" appearance.

Back to the EFN, there do is one thing I don't understand: one of the main reasons the EF adopted Zeon style MS after the OYW is because they captured the production lines at California Base. In such case the EF should have been able to adopt any other MSM series unit produced there instead of those based on the Zaku II frame, which were not produced on Earth to begin with and as such there shouldn't even be many components around for the few units that stuck around for after the initial tests.

If adopting the Z'gok wasn't an option due to cost, the Acguy which shares many components with the Zaku II should have been their best alterantive. Essentially any other MSM would have been a better choice than those based on Zaku frames which even by Zeon standards were considered inadequate amphibious MS.

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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by JEFFPIATT » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:06 am

Gelgoog Jager wrote:That's correct: both captured Zeon MS and RX units equipped with mono-eye sensors would be modified to give them a more traditional visor or Gundam eyes, as in the case of the Silver Bullet and Byarlant Custom. And as already pointed out, the Nemo was also adopted due to it's GM-like appearance despite being Zeon unit internally.

I should point out that this practice was also used by Zeon in sometimes, as in the case of the Gerbera Tetra rollout version and the Sinanju Stein. And as in the case of the Nemo, different groups of Zeon remnants ended up adopting the Hizack, Marasai and Barzam due to their "Zeonic" appearance.

Back to the EFN, there do is one thing I don't understand: one of the main reasons the EF adopted Zeon style MS after the OYW is because they captured the production lines at California Base. In such case the EF should have been able to adopt any other MSM series unit produced there instead of those based on the Zaku II frame, which were not produced on Earth to begin with and as such there shouldn't even be many components around for the few units that stuck around for after the initial tests.

If adopting the Z'gok wasn't an option due to cost, the Acguy which shares many components with the Zaku II should have been their best alterantive. Essentially any other MSM would have been a better choice than those based on Zaku frames which even by Zeon standards were considered inadequate amphibious MS.
I got the feeling it was more of an Budget move as the Acguy while it shared parts wasn't an zaku frame suit. The EFF seemed to have wanted an "Joint Strike Fighter" kind of MS fleet Hence the oyo era EFN ms being RGM-79 frames with waterproofing parts fitted to the external frame and the Core Block replaced with an pressurized unit. The Brass may have wanted to stick with that when the RMS-106 was being atopted and just took some early units and mounted the equipment from the MS-06M conversion kits and later put out an improved kit only for most of the units getting captured and post Axis conflict the few remaining ones got scrapped or converted in to Hobby Hi-zack units and instead of commissioning new RAG units based on an newer RGM frame the old RAG-79 units got recommissioned with minor refits but it's still bad that the EFN is the lowest on the new stuff priority list with the land and air forces getting Grypts era units at the latest for standard forces.

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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:21 pm

Using Zaku frames (and later Hizack frames) for reducing costs and streaming mass production does sound like a sound reason. For what matters, we don't really see the EF using much non-Zaku units (including the Gouf series) such as the Dom and Gelgoog series, aside from captured units or designs like the Galbaldy Beta which the EF appropriated and even issued with an EF model number.

The RAG-79 units in U.C. 0096 still seem out of place: as mentioned it would make more sense to assume that these are RGM-79R or RGM-86R units converted into amphibious MS, but there's nothing to indicate that might be the case. Since the we also have a Night Seeker unit using a RGM-86R as its base model and a RGM-79R serving as the base for the GM Semi-Striker, it would seem reasonable to assume that if the RAG-79 units used a newer GM unit as base model there would be something to hint such difference from the original version.

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Re: Neo Zeon MS use by EFSF? (Also, Hyaku Shiki question)

Post by JEFFPIATT » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:24 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:
Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:21 pm
Using Zaku frames (and later Hizack frames) for reducing costs and streaming mass production does sound like a sound reason. For what matters, we don't really see the EF using much non-Zaku units (including the Gouf series) such as the Dom and Gelgoog series, aside from captured units or designs like the Galbaldy Beta which the EF appropriated and even issued with an EF model number.

The RAG-79 units in U.C. 0096 still seem out of place: as mentioned it would make more sense to assume that these are RGM-79R or RGM-86R units converted into amphibious MS, but there's nothing to indicate that might be the case. Since the we also have a Night Seeker unit using a RGM-86R as its base model and a RGM-79R serving as the base for the GM Semi-Striker, it would seem reasonable to assume that if the RAG-79 units used a newer GM unit as base model there would be something to hint such difference from the original version.
it doesn't help that by the uc 0090's that earth was slowly becoming a backwater location for the Military funding with the EFSF and the Special task Groups getting the newer ms first and the earth forces working with older units the Navy seeming to revert to the RAG-79 after the first neo zeon war and not ever adapting a more modern RGM frame to fill the role.

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