MSG Iron-Blooded Orphans | Armoring A Movable Frame Explain?

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Maerl
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MSG Iron-Blooded Orphans | Armoring A Movable Frame Explain?

Hi,

Currently, I'm working on a description for some fan-art that I'm having done for a futuristic D&D campaign set in the Iron-Blooded Orphans Gundam Universe; however, I haven't been able to find a mobile suit resource site that provides a more in-depth explanation of the following:

"How armor is attached over the frame of mobile suits with a movable frame? In particular areas such as the forearms and legs?"

"How is the shoulder armor attached and able to articulate with the arms' broad range of movement? How could that be explained using today's technical knowledge and terminology?"

I really appreciate any assistance from the members of MAHQ.Net's community. :)

~Maerl
Last edited by Maerl on Tue Nov 08, 2016 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wingnut
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Re: Attaching Armor???

In the case of the movable frame technology, it was probably bolted on or affixed by some other non-permanent means (no direct welding for example) as the armor and various other components could be moved about the frame if for no other reason to reduce downtime for repairs and replacement of parts.

This image of a Jegan from Char's Counterattack might provide some insight on your shoulder armor question. As you can see, it's not too unlike a human ball and socket joint, so medieval plate armor might be a suitable comparison point/analogue to MS armor on top of the frame.
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Maerl
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Re: Attaching Armor???

Wingnut wrote:In the case of the movable frame technology, it was probably bolted on or affixed by some other non-permanent means (no direct welding for example) as the armor and various other components could be moved about the frame if for no other reason to reduce downtime for repairs and replacement of parts.

This image of a Jegan from Char's Counterattack might provide some insight on your shoulder armor question. As you can see, it's not too unlike a human ball and socket joint, so medieval plate armor might be a suitable comparison point/analogue to MS armor on top of the frame.
Thank you, Wingnut, for replying to my inquiry; though the image that you provided didn't really provide any insight into my question about the shoulders. I re-modeled my question as I may have been too vague? I understand that a frame is modeled after human anatomy to a degree; however, I'm trying to figure out how the pieces fit together to allow for free range of movement in a technical sense. In regards to the bolting of armor onto the frame, I could see that for the core but what about the limbs and head? Those pieces tend to be molded into unique shapes, so are they bolted as well or made to be form-fitting over the frame; then bolted together?

Thanks again for your assistance. :)
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Dark Duel
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Re: MSG Iron-Blooded Orphans | Armoring A Movable Frame Expl

If you've ever seen or assembled the internal frame for a Master Grade or a Perfect Grade, that would probably be a pretty good indicator of how that might be put together - especially one of the most recent ones. Dalong.net has manual scans for a lot of recent MG kits that might be helpful.

The limbs and head would use a combination of different types of joints, attached to the main body, to achieve a fairly wide range of movement.
I would imagine those joints would be also bolted to the frame as well rather than permanently welded on in order to ensure that the extremities(head and arms) can be removed if required for maintenance.
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Maerl
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Re: MSG Iron-Blooded Orphans | Armoring A Movable Frame Expl

Dark Duel wrote:If you've ever seen or assembled the internal frame for a Master Grade or a Perfect Grade, that would probably be a pretty good indicator of how that might be put together - especially one of the most recent ones. Dalong.net has manual scans for a lot of recent MG kits that might be helpful.

The limbs and head would use a combination of different types of joints, attached to the main body, to achieve a fairly wide range of movement.
I would imagine those joints would be also bolted to the frame as well rather than permanently welded on in order to ensure that the extremities(head and arms) can be removed if required for maintenance.
Thank you, DD, for the link and information! I checked out the site that you recommended and it seems like the mobile suits have an extended articulation port, as I'm assuming that some form of rotational cuff is used to rotate that arm at the shoulder joint. But this extended articulation port or "clavicle" appears to have an auxiliary device attached that may be what part of the shoulder armor is bolted to. However, some seem to be mounted on the ball joint as well, which is a bit confusing.

I could definitely see having an auxiliary piece that serves as a mounting place for a spacious pauldron, which may solve the issue of inhibiting movement of the arm... However, if the mounting is on the ball-joint which it very well may be, then how is it attached in a way that doesn't inhibit the workings of the joint?
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MythSearcher
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Re: MSG Iron-Blooded Orphans | Armoring A Movable Frame Expl

Maerl wrote:
Thank you, DD, for the link and information! I checked out the site that you recommended and it seems like the mobile suits have an extended articulation port, as I'm assuming that some form of rotational cuff is used to rotate that arm at the shoulder joint. But this extended articulation port or "clavicle" appears to have an auxiliary device attached that may be what part of the shoulder armor is bolted to. However, some seem to be mounted on the ball joint as well, which is a bit confusing.

I could definitely see having an auxiliary piece that serves as a mounting place for a spacious pauldron, which may solve the issue of inhibiting movement of the arm... However, if the mounting is on the ball-joint which it very well may be, then how is it attached in a way that doesn't inhibit the workings of the joint?
You probably need a certain degree of knowledge in mechanical joints to understand the movements.

In which, You might be interested in the 4-bar mechanism and the different motions it can create.

Depending on the rotation and orientation of the shoulder armour, the attachment to the joint can be freely rotate along that axis, but not move or rotate in other axis.

BTW, even though I'd also suggest looking into the MG, PG models, I'd also like to point out that there are mechanisms in the models that can only be used in such small scale.
Due to the square-cube law, with a material of the same density, the weight increases faster than its surface area(thus generally reduces friction area) and the connections in the model armour are not likely to hold in place with the same friction tolerance pair. (The model plastic is hold in place by forcing a slightly larger shaft into the socket, the plastic inside is then compressed and gives an expanding force that increases the friction.
The same cannot be done in a larger scale, since the tolerance level will not simply increase(the elasticity of the material will not scale up), the percentage of the force cannot scale up and you don't have enough force to hold it still.(Since you have enough force to ply it open, you will be able to apply similar force to do the same in the larger version if it is just a scale up, the force hasn't changed, the weight of the armour is likely to make it just slide out of the joint)

Either you need bolts and nuts(simplest, not recommended in war machines since that became a powerful projectile inside when sheared) or something more sophisticated, like some kind of locking method.

From the show, the MS can detach the armour themselves by a push of a button(at least not manually by hand) so the attachment is likely to be more than just hanging the armour pieces on.
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Mimeblade
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Re: MSG Iron-Blooded Orphans | Armoring A Movable Frame Expl

This may seem like a no-brainer, but wouldn't they just put armor on the non-moving parts of the frame?
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SonicSP
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Re: MSG Iron-Blooded Orphans | Armoring A Movable Frame Expl

I don't know whether this is relevant to the issue at hand but since it's mildly related to armor, it might be good info.

In IBO, all mobile suits and ships used something called Nanolaminate Armor - which despite the name is literally some sort of magical sci-fi paint that you could apply on the surface of solid armor to greatly exchange its defensive properties.

The Nanolaminated Armor' defensive properties is powered by the Ahab Particles that are generated from the mobile suit's Ahab Reactors (this is presumably the reason why smaller units like mobile workers cannot use them as they don't have the reactors).

While the paint are not invulnerable against guns, it's extremely effective against them. It is for this reason why blunt melee weapons play such an important role in IBO because they are extremely effective against Nanolaminate Armor.

Presumably the actual solid armor we see in IBO still plays a crucial role, as that would definitely explain why heavy armor designs like the Brewers' Gundam Gusion and Rodis being deployed since all that extra ate would mean something. There is definitely some sort of amplification or increased ability when you can use more solid and thicker armor.

I don't know whether this may be accurate but it's possible that the increased defense properties granted by the Nanolaminated Armor paint technology means that the solid armor surface that it's applied to doesn't need to be as heavy as it is to achieve the same degree of protection around it.

This may mean that it's easier to design the solid armor parts since they actually don't need to be actually be strong in the normal physical sense to be as effective because of the super defense paint, which may allow them more leeway in the intergration techniques used.
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MythSearcher
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Re: MSG Iron-Blooded Orphans | Armoring A Movable Frame Expl

Mimeblade wrote:This may seem like a no-brainer, but wouldn't they just put armor on the non-moving parts of the frame?
Since that will restrict the movement of the moveable parts.

If you have access to an MG Master Gundam you will know the problem.
The waist armour is attached to a non-moving part, without it, the thigh can move like other normal MGs, but with the armour, the thigh cannot bend up.

Or like at Darth Vader's arm movements in Ep.4-6, the shoulder armour is blocking the way, so most sword swing motion is left to right or vice versa.
SonicSP wrote:
While the paint are not invulnerable against guns, it's extremely effective against them. It is for this reason why blunt melee weapons play such an important role in IBO because they are extremely effective against Nanolaminate Armor.
From what I've heard, that paint is pretty much like the AT Field in EVA, melee weapons are effective since the Ahab reactors neutralize each other's ability to strengthen the paint.

BTW, anyone got info about the Ahab reactors being forged in Stars and is virtually indestructible? People claim that info came from the Mechanical files, but I don't see the description in model manuals with no access to the Mechanical files.
If so, the reactor and whatever is holding it will probably be even stronger than the armour with paint, and the armour is probably for taking the impact force and protecting the pilot.
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SonicSP
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Re: MSG Iron-Blooded Orphans | Armoring A Movable Frame Expl

MythSearcher wrote:From what I've heard, that paint is pretty much like the AT Field in EVA, melee weapons are effective since the Ahab reactors neutralize each other's ability to strengthen the paint.
I've not seen that mention in the translated materials so far but even aside from that it's also unlikely because blunt weapons still work on long range, such as when Barbatos threw his mace or Kimaris's boomerang metal thingy is can shoot. Barbatos' long sword also doesn't work against Nanolaminated Armor (only by stabbing through gaps) before Mika learned the proper technique in the final episode.

Besides, the language of the HG Barbatos implies that the "striking" aspect of the weapon is the weak point as opposed just the range, though close range would also help increase damage guns when within an atmosphere.
MythSearcher wrote:BTW, anyone got info about the Ahab reactors being forged in Stars and is virtually indestructible? People claim that info came from the Mechanical files, but I don't see the description in model manuals with no access to the Mechanical files.
If so, the reactor and whatever is holding it will probably be even stronger than the armour with paint, and the armour is probably for taking the impact force and protecting the pilot.
I've not see the translations over here, but it's plausible. Balofo has translated one IBO Mechanics book so far and he didn't mention it. Maybe if there are other mechanic books that he hasn't covered yet.

The Ahab Reactors appear to be everywhere with Teiwaz being able to salvage them to create a mass production line even. It would also explain why places like the debris zone exist.

Still, the Ahab Reactors themselves are only a small part of the mobile suit. The frame of mobile suits it's made from some sort of strong rare alloy material. And while it's likely strong to an extent, usually shots that go through the gaps can disable a mobile suit fairly easily in IBO, at least that's how it is seemingly from some of the battles. Maybe that's something that should be taken into account in the frame discussion too.
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