Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.

Moderators: ShadowCell, Heretic, mcred23, EZero8, Draco Starcloud, SNT1, Kenji

Post Reply
User avatar
MythSearcher
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 632
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:30 am

toysdream wrote:We don't actually have much information about Sentinel weaponry, aside from the occasional reference to the beam smartgun using an energy CAP. (In fact, the MG kit manual identifies the block at the rear of the gun as an energy pack.) To me, the bulbs at the ends of the S Gundam's backpack cannons resemble the energy packs of the GM Cannon II; the thigh beam cannons, which are connected directly to the body, could more plausibly receive their energy supply from the mobile suit itself.

It occurs to me - and maybe this is a good time to mention it - that the beam weapon outputs from Gundam Sentinel could perhaps be interpreted as the output of the beam rather than the generator power required to fire it, thus providing an apples-to-apples comparison between E-CAP and generator-connected weapons. But in general, the outputs are simply really really high, and even weapons like the GM III's beam sabers and the Gundam Mk-V's incoms have outputs more than twice what we've seen for the identical weapons in Gundam ZZ.

-- Mark
Ah, The back pack cannons e-cap was referenced in Gundam War III's p.81.
I didn't check the MG model, but did went through Gundam War III and saw no mention about e-cap of the beam smart gun and the thigh beam cannons.

What interests me is that the thigh cannons have an output of 14MW, which is 1/4 of the beam smart gun, and for full power usage, the beam smart gun needed to be connected to the waist and thigh connectors.

About the output in Sentinel, I guess they did the numbers in connection to ZZ's. If you think about the releative size of them, it is not really that overwhelming. Similar in size with ZZ's back pack cannon, the S Gundam has an output of 12MW, yet the ZZ's is 20MW, so S actually has a lower output. The beam smart gun is much longer than ZZ's head cannon, which also needed power to maintain the I-Field barrel within, the output might also need to support the disk radome and the cooling. If we take a look of the total weapon output of S and ZZ, we can see that they are not that far off the chart. S has a 12X2+14X2+56+3.8MW=111.8MW, while Enhanced ZZ has 20X2+10.6X2+50MW=111.2MW. Considering the Ex-S has two extra generators to power the 2 extra 12MW cannons, and S itself is more of a refined version of ZZ, everything seems to be still in acceptable range.

Mk-V's output is higher than Doven Wolf's similar parts, but I guess since Axis needed to reverse engineer the unit to form Doven wolf, things get more complicated. However, if we look at the total output of the weapons, we can see that the doven wolf simply had more weapons, and the total output is way above what the Mk-V can do.

Looking at the Mk-V's profile, the beam rifle output is unknown, but the most powerful weapons are the 12MW back pack cannons and the incoms has 4.5MW. That add up to 33MW in total.
The Doven wolf's rifle, when connected, has an output of 40.5MW, which is actually much more than that.
And if we look at the remote weapons, the Doven wolf's incoms is 2MW, but it also added two 2.3MW remote guns, the total output is close to the two 4.5MW of the Mk-V.
The back pack cannons' output might simply be directed to the torso's mega particle cannons, where two 5.3MW+ two 4.2MW gives us 19MW, which is not that much lower than the two 12MW of Mk-V.

Ignoring the beam sabres, with doven wolf's lower power generator output, it still gets a total of 40.2+19+8.6MW= 67.8MW
While the Mk-V out put is 33MW plus an unknown number for its beam rifle. Even if we use a number like 35MW for the rifle, it would still be on par with the Doven wolf.

For the beam sabres, it might just be the new standard issue of Task Force Alpha? All of the beam sabres, even S's has the same 0.9MW output. It'd be much more efficient for the supplies section to just issue the same kind of beam sabre and not having a bunch of different output ones. If makes more sense that way. AEUG's Argama/Nahel Argama is pretty much just a bunch of misfits/whatever they can get and thus it would be much harder to standardize, but the EFSF's task force should be able to do so.

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:48 am

Yes, the S Gundam's outputs do seem to be computed relative to the ZZ Gundam. The 20 MW output of the ZZ's backpack beam cannons is actually for both cannons combined; the published specs phrase this as "double beam cannon (output 20 MW)". That's just 10 MW each, which is how they're listed in the old model kit manuals. As such, they're a little less powerful than the backpack cannons of the FAZZ and S Gundam.

Oddly, the output of the ZZ's double beam cannons is different in G-Fortress and Core Base mode. In these forms, they're just 3.2 MW apiece. Perhaps they run on E-CAPs in this form? I don't think it's ever been explained.


Incidentally, there are alternate specs for the Zeta Plus and G-V in "Gundam Wars II: Mission ZZ." In its specs chart, the Zeta Plus's thigh beam cannons are listed as "2.4 MW x 2", and the hyper mega cannon of the A2 version is listed as 11.8 MW. Interestingly, this specs chart also uses the 3.2 MW figure for the ZZ's double beam cannons.

As for the G-V: The differences between its specs and those of the Gundam Mark-V could be explained partly by differences in design. For example, the G-V seems to just have beam sabers on its back, while the Mark-V has sabers that double as beam cannons. But the Gundam Wars II chart does give us an output spec for the G-V's beam rifle: 11.8 MW, a little less than the Doven Wolf's rifle.

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Retconned MSV Ace
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:43 am

I would make some corrections to the total energy requirements for the Doven Wolf, based on whether or not is currently using its Mega Launcher:

Standard mode: 37.4 MW

Mega Launcher Mode: 54.5 MW (the 40.2 MW would replace the 5.3 MW per x2 (10.6 MW) torso beam gun and the 12.5 MW of the beam rifle).

On the other hand, I'm thinking that the Gundam Mk V might be closer in configuration to the AMX-018 Todesritter than to the Doven Wolf. With a generator output of 3,400 kW, the Todesritter features 2 beam saber/guns, 2 hyper beam sabers/cannons (similar to those of the Gaz-L and Gaz-R), 6 tri-blade incoms, an E-Pac powered Hyper Knuckle Buster and a Bawoo shield with 5 beam cannons.

While we are not actually given generator outputs for these weapons, we can take some safe guesses using the numbers from other Axis/Neo Zeon MS:

-Hyper Beam Saber/Cannons: 3.8 MW Cannon mode/ 1.0 MW Saber mode (Gaz-L & Gaz-R)
-Incom Beam Gun: 2.0 MW (Doven Wolf)
-Hyper Knuckle Buster: 4.1 MW (Ga-Zowmn)

This leaves the shield beam cannons, which are likely powered by an in-built generator as in the case of the Hamma Hamma's shield, and the beam saber/guns. The later I assume are most similar to standard 0.4 beam sabers given their size, and probably less powerful than the larger beam saber(guns of the Zaku III, rated at 2.8 MW.

However, an scan might actually provide a better clue on the later and may actually indicate a relationship with the Mk V:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0406042150

I can't read japanese, but the text next to the beam saber includes a "Z" and a "Mk V".

For the time being, I'll use the 2.8 MW from the Zaku III for my example, for which the Todesritter beam weapons would need 29.3 MW.

I also remembered the odd case of the Gallus J, which has a 2,840 kW generator despite sometimes deploying without beam weapons: whether or not it carries a beam saber as part of its standard loadout is questionable (specially due to the lack of a rack for it) and its odd handheld weapon, which at one point was supposed to be a beam magnum, but which seems to have been changed into an "energy gun with missile launcher", with a 2.8 MW beam gun. In either case, it seems to lack weapons that would require a high output generator.

Even the AMX-101K doesn't get to make full use of its high generator output since its beam cannon is a Hyper Knuckle Buster form a GaZowmn, which means it's an E-Pac weapon.

bilbros
Creepy Bishonen
Posts: 228
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:25 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by bilbros » Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:15 pm

As far as I can read (and understand!), the caption of the Todesritter's hyper beam saber says more or less that these kind of large beam sabers - provided of increased power output - were produced within the project Z, and are used for instance by units as the Mk-V.

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Retconned MSV Ace
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:29 pm

I gave some more thought to the difference in power rating of the Doven Wolf's incoms and those of the Gundam Mk V. Since we are told that the wires cannot provide energy to the incoms and therefore they need to return in order to be recharged, I'm thinking that the reasoning could simply be getting more shots before needing to recharge.

By the same logic, perhaps some of the weapons with lower power ratings, compared to older versions, are simply trying to increase the amount of shots available. After all, didn't the original Gundam had a limit of just 12 shots or so?

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Sat Sep 24, 2016 4:04 am

I'm not sure totaling up the outputs of all the mobile suit's weapons tells us anything very useful, since in most cases they don't use them all at the same time. I think I'm more interested in the question of how the various weapons compare to each other, and I've been digging up some useful info on that front. I'm also finding out some things about mega condensers, which may actually be relevant to the mobile suit's generator output...


I'm working on a comprehensive roundup, but in the meantime, I note a passage in the third volume of the Gundam UC novels where Angelo sees the Unicorn's beam magnum in action for the first time. He estimates that it's more powerful than a beam launcher, and equal to a mega bazooka launcher, although it has the rate of fire of a beam rifle.

It's surprisingly hard to estimate the output of the mega bazooka launcher. Gundam Sentinel claims that it's more powerful than a beam smartgun (famously, and dubiously, rated at 56 MW). Entertainment Bible 2, however, says that the ZZ's high mega cannon has "mega bazooka launcher-class output", which suggests it's approximately 50 MW.

In any case, we're also told that one shot from the beam magnum is equivalent to four shots from a normal beam rifle. If we go with the low-end estimate for the mega bazooka launcher, that suggests the beam magnum is also equivalent to a 50 MW weapon, and a standard beam rifle is equivalent to a 12.5 MW weapon. If we're theorizing that E-CAP weapons fire beams more powerful than the generator output they require - as per the 0083 drama CD - then this becomes fairly plausible. We can thus say that a standard beam rifle of the U.C. 0096 era is indeed as powerful as the 12 MW mega particle cannons mounted on the Magellan at the start of the war, finally justifying that classic comparison.

One other reference point: As per the old and new kit manuals, the ZZ's double beam rifle has power rivaling that of a mega bazooka launcher. I'm still skeptical that the double beam rifle is actually E-CAP-based, and thus eligible for that power multiplier, but this would suggest that 21.2 MW of beam rifle output is roughly equivalent to 50 MW of a condenser-based weapon.


I've been idly contemplating the ratio between E-CAP and condenser output. There may not be a standard ratio - the efficiency of E-CAP weapons probably improves over time - but based on the examples we've looked at before, I'm fairly sure it's more than 2.0 and less than 3.0. If a 21.2 MW beam rifle were exactly as powerful as a 50 MW mega particle cannon, that suggests a ratio of 2.36, which allows us to make comparisons like the following...

2.8 MW beam rifle = 6.6 MW mega particle cannon
3.8 MW beam rifle = 9.0 MW mega particle cannon
4.1 MW beam rifle = 9.7 MW mega particle cannon
5.3 MW beam rifle = 12.5 MW mega particle cannon

In this case, the Hyaku Shiki's beam rifle is as powerful as a knuckle buster, and the Ga Zowmn's hyper knuckle buster is more powerful than that of the Gaza D. Interesting!

-- Mark

Henyo
Mysterious Masked Dude
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:24 am
Location: Hidden Tramo Village

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Henyo » Sat Sep 24, 2016 9:18 am

there's one thing i've been wondering about.

the effective range of beam weapons. by that i mean how long does it travel before it losses power. a friend of mine, whose more into gundam, once said that the Freedom's beam rifle is more powerful thanks to being longer. or something along those lines. he's not into the in universe details stuff so i'm still wondering to this day.

another example is the Unicorn's beam magnum in the episode 2. the part where the MS was destroyed even if it was just grazed by the beam.
MOOK: ITS A YURI FANBOY!

User avatar
Dark Duel
Determined Shonen Hero
Posts: 4605
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:39 pm
Location: A blue City in a red State

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Dark Duel » Sat Sep 24, 2016 12:48 pm

Two issues you bring up there - range and power.
As far as the effective range of beam weapons, AFAIK there is very little in terms of solid numbers there, if anything at all. And with very, very few exceptions (most of which are of the colony-sized-WMD variety) it's something that IMO is nearly impossible to quantify.

As for this statement by your "friend" about the Freedom's beam rifle, I mean no offense but that sounds to me like simple fanboyism. It's also extremely vague - what does "the Freedom's beam rifle is more powerful thanks to being longer" even mean?

- If he's referring to the length of the weapon itself meaning that the rifle is more powerful, that is easily disproven.
(1) The Freedom's rifle isn't noticeably any longer than that of, for example, the Strike, Impulse, or for that matter the RX-78-2's. Nor does it seem to do any more damage when it hits than any other beam rifle based on the animation.
(2) The Gaia's beam rifle is probably twice the length of the Freedom's, yet there is no demonstrable difference in power between it and that of any other beam rifle in the series.
- If he's referring to the length/range of its beam, I'm afraid that's unquantifiable based on the animation, and no solid range numbers exist AFAIK. So there's no factual basis for that claim either, at least to the best of my knowledge

The second thing you bring up with the beam magnum has less to do with effective range and more to do with the power of the weapon - in the scene to which you refer, the beam magnum expends the equivalent of the entirety of the charge on a standard beam rifle in a single shot, so the shot fired is exponentlally more powerful than that of an ordinary beam rifle. Thus, the enemy unit is destroyed despite not having been struck directly(or, IIRC, at all) simply because it was that powerful a shot.

You see this every once in a while in situations like this, but AFAIK it's extremely uncommon with MS. One other similar example occurs to me from GSD, when the Minerva fired its Tannhaüser in Ep12(the original, dunno if that's still in the remaster), the shot passed in between two ships without hitting either one at all, but both were still destroyed.
// ART THREAD // NOT ACCEPTING REQUESTS
// GUNPLA THREAD //

"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:52 pm

There's a pretty good body of information for UC mobile suits at least. As we've discussed in this thread, mobile suit engagements tend to be resolved within a range of about 20 km, since they can't reliably detect each other beyond that. Based on MS Igloo and other sources, larger objects such as ships can be visually detected up to a range of 300 km at the start of the One Year War, which is further than the effective range of a Magellan-class battleship's main guns. By the end of the war, the visual observation range has been pushed up to more than 500 km, and one assumes it continues to increase; however, the 640 km cruising range of the Bawoo Nutter (which can function as an unmanned missile) is said to far surpass the effective range of beam weapons, so it appears that as of Gundam ZZ the range limit for beam weapons is still just a few hundred kilometers.

The diameter of the beams is a different, and rather interesting, question. Based on ZZ episode 34, the beam from the ZZ's high mega cannon seems to be about 30m wide; that may give us a reference point for other weapons.

Meanwhile! I mentioned that I was doing some further research on relative weapon power. Here's a selection of data that I've recently dredged up...


Big-Zam: Its main gun is the large deflection type mega particle cannon that protrudes from the front of the torso, which is powerful enough to sink a Magellan-class battleship with one shot. Deflection type mega particle cannons for anti-air use are also arrayed around the torso to prevent mobile suits from engaging it in close combat. [...] However, operating all these high-output mega particle cannons requires the charging of a mega condenser based on Minovsky physics, and due to cooling problems full-scale combat can only be sustained for less than twenty minutes. (Entertainment Bible 1)

Transformable Mobile Armors: In addition to transformation systems and movable frames, another technology developed in transformable MA was mega particle cannons connected directly to the generator. One Year War-era MA and warship main guns were also directly connected types, but the development of the mega condenser made it possible to drive high mega cannons with ten times the output of previous types. (This technology underwent further improvements, and was inherited by the mega bazooka launcher and 4th generation MS.) (Entertainment Bible 2)

Mega Launchers: The mega launcher is a weapon that was first introduced in the Gryps Conflict, and then underwent rapid advancement. Its range performance and destructive power are warship-class. (Entertainment Bible 2)

Mega Bazooka Launcher: Due to improved mega condenser performance, it can be used by a single machine. However, continuous fire requires backup from an additional machine. (Entertainment Bible 2)


As you can see, the Entertainment Bibles spend some time discussing the "mega condenser," which is of course what makes the ZZ's high mega cannon possible. It's not entirely clear what makes these devices so "mega," but there's a more recent explanation in the Encyclopedia of Gundam...
Thanks to the improved performance of non-transformable MS, a 4th generation of high-class machines appeared which emphasized offensive strength. One result was the installation of high mega cannons. Beam cannons which did not use the energy CAP system, and could use energy directly from the generator (particle cannons directly connected via mega condensers), had ten times the previous output. This was implemented in the late 0080s as generator output rapidly increased, and it became possible to use mega condensers inside the MS itself to accumulate the electrical power produced by the generator and degenerate Minovsky particles.
It looks to me like, as a consequence of their higher capacity, these devices allow mobile suits - and mega launchers - to accumulate energy out of proportion to their generator output. The FAZZ, for example, has a generator output of just over 8,000 kW and a main weapon with an output of just under 80 MW, a tenfold ratio of generator to weapon output. It makes sense that these devices would also be used in mega launchers, which are huge weapons powered by one or two rinky-dink little mobile suit generators.


Super Gundam: Even in its normal state, the long rifle mounted on the FXA-05D has a high level of destructive power. But when connected to MS power circuits with an external cable, it can also function as a mega beam launcher. (MG kit manual)

The term "mega beam launcher" is also used to describe the weapons used by the RX-78-4 Gundam, the Le Cygne, and the ReZEL. The Zeta's "hyper mega launcher" also used to be described as a mega beam launcher in the old kit manuals. It's not clear whether this category would be more or less powerful than the "mega launcher" used by the Mega-Rider, Hizack, Doven Wolf, and Jamru-Fin, but the latter two are rated at 40 MW and the Mega-Rider's main gun can be boosted to the level of the ZZ's high mega cannon using its supply of E-cartridges.


Psycho Gundam: According to the HG-UC kit manual, the beam cannons in its fingers use the energy CAP system, while the diffuse mega particle cannons in its chest are connected directly to the generator. (Don't ask me why their output is so puny.)

Messala: According to the HG-UC kit manual, its mega particle cannons are connected directly to the generator. Entertainment Bible 2 estimates their output at 11.3 MW.


ZZ Gundam: Another distinctive characteristic of the ZZ Gundam is its incredible firepower. In particular, it has a high mega cannon with an output of 50 MW. This high-output mega particle cannon gathers the electrical power of all the machine's generators, amplifies it with a newly developed mega condenser, and then fires it, and it has the power to sink a large warship. Its main gun and beam sabers also have performance far beyond those of traditional MS equipment. Its main gun, the double beam rifle, has mega bazooka launcher-class power and is also capable of continuous fire. The high mega cannon has 1/5 the output of a colony laser, the strongest of all weapons. However, because it concentrates the power of all the generators, the machine's functionality is temporarily decreased after use. (1/100 kit manual)

The MSZ-010's main weapon, the double beam rifle, has power rivaling that of a mega bazooka launcher but is also capable of continuous fire. This is because the module itself not only contains multiple generators, but can also receive an energy supply from the main body. (Master Grade kit manual)

Hyper beam saber / beam cannon: This can form a beam blade with several times the power and length of a normal beam saber. When mounted on the backpack, it can also be used as a beam cannon of a type connected directly to the generator. (HG/UC kit manual)

The high mega cannon installed in its head has power surpassing that of a warship's high-output beam cannon. (Gundam Collection)

Two interesting things here. The claim that the ZZ's high mega cannon can "sink a large warship" puts it perhaps a notch above the main guns of the Big-Zam and Doven Wolf, which are said to be capable of sinking a Magellan with one shot. Also, we're told that the backpack beam cannons are connected directly to the generator, which means they bypass the E-CAP system and use the generator output directly. So it's possible that their lower output in Core Base and G-Fortress form may reflect the fact that, without all the ZZ's generators connected together, these weapons run off E-CAPs instead and thus require a lower generator output.

Incidentally, the ZZ's "double beam rifle" is commonly listed as a "mega beam rifle" in Core Top and G-Fortress form. This term is also used for the rifle of the Nightingale, as well as the Mass Production Type Zeta and the Zeta II. Speaking of which...

Zeta II: Mega beam rifle: In waverider form, it can be structurally connected directly to all the generators, displaying power rivaling that of the Z Gundam's hyper mega launcher. (HG-UC kit manual)

In this case, the Zeta II's generators link together in waverider form, allowing its mega beam rifle to "power up". I suspect that the ZZ may work the other way round, linking its generators in mobile suit form so that it can run all its weapons directly from the generator and concentrate all their output to fire the high mega cannon.


Doven Wolf: Its extensive armament is characteristic of the 4th generation, but the Doven Wolf also has a system in which its beam rifle can be connected directly to its fixed mega particle cannons and used as a mega launcher. The rifle's output is 12.5 MW, and the two chest mega particle cannons are 5.3 MW each. When they are used as a mega launcher, it has an output of 40.2 MW. Of course, due to its massive energy consumption and the need to recharge, it is incapable of continuous fire, but it has the power to sink a Magellan-class battleship with one shot. (Entertainment Bible 2)

Jamru-Fin: Its most distinctive feature is the high mega cannon in its abdomen. With one blow, this weapon has the power to pierce the heavy armor of a warship from the very limit of its effective sensor radius, and sink it. (1/144 kit manual)

Notable chiefly for a couple of very specific claims about these weapons and their ability to sink warships with one shot. The Doven Wolf's 40 MW mega launcher can sink a Magellan; the Jamru-Fin's 30 MW high mega cannon can sink a warship of unspecified type. It's possible, then, that we may be able to rate weapons based on how big a ship they can annihilate!


Nu Gundam HWS: It uses a hyper mega rifle, with power rivaling that of a hyper mega launcher, as its main weapon. (Gundam Collection)

Nightingale: Mega beam rifle: It can also fire super-high-output beams rivaling those of a mega bazooka launcher, and is equipped with a bipod designed for long-range precision bombardment. (RE/100 kit manual)

A couple more comparisons for our reference. The hyper mega rifle of the Nu Gundam HWS is comparable to a hyper mega launcher (presumably that of the Zeta), which puts it in the same ballpark as the Super Gundam's long rifle and the Zeta II's mega beam rifle. The Nightingale's mega beam rifle rivals a mega bazooka launcher, which would put it in the same range as the ZZ's high mega cannon and the Unicorn's beam magnum.

-- Mark

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:25 am

Aaaaaand after that huge research blart, I've been scanning through the actual animation to see how it compares to the published claims. I started with ZZ episode 11, and things are interesting right off the bat.

ZZ Episode 11: The first appearance of the ZZ. With one combined blast from the double beam rifle, it blows the Hamma Hamma's shield apart, and the mobile suit's arm along with it. Which is impressive, but not remotely as impressive as...

ZZ Episode 12: The first use of the ZZ's high mega cannon, and one of only four times the weapon was ever used. A near miss with the double beam rifle's combined beam melts the R Jarja's shoulder armor a bit, and then a glancing blow from the high mega cannon vaporizes its legs and shears off the tips of its shields. Unquestionably the high mega cannon is far more powerful; the listed power outputs (50 MW versus a total of 21.2 MW) seem like good relative measurements of their respective beams.

ZZ Episode 16: It's been a few episodes since the ZZ did anything noteworthy with its ranged weapons, perhaps because they're too powerful for the scriptwriters to do much with. Interestingly, in this episode Judau dials down the double beam rifle's output so that it fires two narrow beams (though they're still an intense red-white, rather than the yellow of normal rifle beams). This enables him to shoot at the Bawoo through the Argama's hangar.

ZZ Episode 17: Chara uses the Core Top's mega beam rifle to shoot her way out of the Argama's hangar. It fires the same kind of narrow beam.

ZZ Episode 18: Judau uses a wide beam from the double beam rifle to destroy the Qubeley Mk-II's funnels. It appears that the beam can be sustained for a few seconds, sweeping around like a huge beam saber.

ZZ Episode 20: Second use of the high mega cannon, which vaporizes a Gaza C and then goes on to blow up a dock facility.

ZZ Episode 21: Judau takes potshots at Gaza Cs and Ds, apparently using the double beam rifle's lower setting, which dents the Gaza D's shield and blows a hole through the middle of a Gaza C. The Neo Zeon transport ship in this episode, a recycled design that appeared in Zeta as an AEUG vessel, has a gun turret whose beams are similar in color and size to those of the ZZ's rifle.

ZZ Episode 22: I think this is the first use of the ZZ's double cannons, which to my surprise fire in alternation rather than simultaneously. Their beams are similar in color and size to those of the double beam rifle. A full-power blast from the double beam rifle destroys a Zssa, and the Dreissen manages to dodge one. We also see that the Argama's hyper mega cannon, which previously vaporized an abandoned colony, has a low-power setting that fires a close-range warning shot at Rakan's ship.

ZZ Episode 23: The halfway mark of the series. This time, Roux pilots the ZZ, and immediately proves way more ruthless and effective than Judau. After dispatching three Zssas with a missile barrage, she fires a full-power combined beam from the double beam rifle through a formation of four Zssas and blows them all up - perhaps because they're packed with high explosives...


So, what have we learned? Well, there's definitely no comparison between the high mega cannon and the double beam rifle, even at the latter's maximum output. So they can't both be equivalent to a mega bazooka launcher; I feel like the rifle is closer to the Zeta's hyper mega launcher, although I need to go back and review that weapon's effects now.

The rifle definitely has a range of power settings. At maximum power it fires a single combined beam, which can be waved back and forth like a beam saber, and looks to be about 10 meters in diameter. At its lowest setting, it fires two narrow beams a couple of meters in diameter, which can still punch through a mobile suit's torso.

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Retconned MSV Ace
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:24 am

It's probably a mistake, but looking around the Mahq profiles, the Knuckle Busters of the Gaza C, Gaza D and GaZowmn are all classified as E-Cap powered weapons. Do the any official sources back this up?

On a different note, I noticed that the Gaza D's feet beam guns tend to be ignored in most armament lists for it. Is there any official info on them, such as their output?

Another thing I noticed is that the Gaza D ha some powerful beam sabers (0.9 MW) for the standard melee weapon of a general machine, even out matching those of better MS such as the Dooben Wolf or GaZowmn. It actually makes me wonder if other Neo Zeon MS which are not clear on the output of their beam sabers (Zaku III, Jamru Fin, etc.) might have similarly powerful weapons.

In contrast, I think that the Qubeley Mass Production Type, which was copy pasted the stats of the original Qubeley, should be a more moderate improvement in all areas similar to the upgrade from the Gaza C to the Gaza D.

Then there's the case of the Queen Mansa, which I suspect had its description for remote weapons copy-pasted directly from the AMX-004G. It should have less funnels (I count only 14 slots for funnels), but higher beam output, specially considering that it has larger funnels than Qubeley, and that's ven the child funnels of the Geymalk have a higher output (1.8 MW vs 1.3 MW). Considering that they were even used to tear apart La Vie En Rose, I strongly suspect that NZ-000's funnels should be far more powerful.

Finally, I was wondering about the Dreissen and the claim that it lacked the output for using the beam cannon from the Dreissen prototype (similar to that of the MS-09H). My concern is that the Dreissen can literally fire its forearm beam guns as beam machine guns, with each barrel having an output of 2.8 MW, which outclass even the guns of the Hamma Hamma (1.8 ME) which doesn't have a high fire-rate.

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Tue Sep 27, 2016 3:35 am

The Gaza C and D knuckle busters are generator-connected, not E-CAP weapons. The Ga-Zowmn profile from Unicorn confirms this. All three machines are supposed to use the same type of beam saber, although I think only the Ga-Zowmn's can be used as guns; no idea why they all have different output specs. No info on the Gaza D's foot mega particle cannons.

I think the idea is that the Quin Mantha uses the same type of funnels as the Qubeley, but it carries a lot more of them in its funnel container. They do seem pretty powerful though!

The claim about the Dreissen's beam cannon, and its inability to power it, comes from the old 1/144 kit manual. So I suppose we're allowed to ignore it if we like. :-)

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Retconned MSV Ace
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:01 pm

I'm more of the opinion that it would make more sense for the Prototype Dreissen to be unable to use the beam cannon later seen on the MS-09H:

-MS-09H supposedly has a generator output of 1,440 kW, versus the Dreissen's 2,380 kW. My pet theory is that the MS-09H is actually an upgraded Axis machine in the same vein as the MS-14J, which would justify why it has an weapon developed by Axis. In such case, we could assume it could a similarly powerful generator (1,890 kW).

-My guess is that the Prototype Dreissen had a less powerful generator than the mass produced model, which forced it to rely on the beam cannon instead. The image from the old gunpla model depicting alternative 3-barrel guns even makes me consider that the Prototype Dreissen may have used a ballistic variant of this weapon.

-More importantly, it would make more sense for Rakan to switch to a standard Dreissen if it was an improvement over the Prototype machine he had been using. Otherwise, it would be odd that he purposely switched to an inferior machine.

-I had pointed out that one way to reconcile the claim about the AMX-011 being the competition of the Dooben Wolf would be assuming that AMX-011 was deployed early on, but an upgraded AMX-011S was later proposed, which was the rival of the Doven Wolf. It's hard to see, but the two AMX-011 units seen among Glemy's forces seem to be of the S-type, since you can see propellant tanks on their backs and they are holding rifles similar to the one included with HGUC kit of the AMX-011S:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0718172728

My guess is that these were kept alongside the Doven Wolf's, which they were being tested against.

-In other words, we could assume that the Prototype Dreissen and the AMX-011 are the prototype versions of these units, and the standard AMX-009 and the AMX-011S are the mass produced models (or at least intended in the case of the AMX-011S). That way we could reconcile why the Zaku III appears early on on the series, but is only seen in very limited numbers, and how a Zaku III could have lost a against the AMX-014.

Back to the topic at hand, is there any mention on who powerful the mega launcher of the Zaku III was supposed to be:

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 1123042309

From the looks of it, it was supposed to connect to the chest of the Zaku III, a feature it would have in common with the Doven Wolf, possibly providing a clue on why Neo Zeon considered these two rival machines.

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Tue Sep 27, 2016 7:03 pm

Maybe this fabled beam cannon was designed to work with the 2,800 kW generator installed in the Galluss-J? We know that the Axis forces had at least one mass-produced machine with a huge power output, and that big generator must have been good for something.

As for the Zaku III, apparently it was originally going to have a high mega cannon in its chest like the Geymalk. Basically it was a kitchen-sink design with every conceivable option and special feature, and they ended up splitting those features up among a bunch of different enemy machines.


Meanwhile! I've stepped back to Zeta Gundam to find more examples of high-power weapons and their effects. It's a little thin on the ground since Kamille and friends seldom actually hit anything, but here are a couple of general observations...

The Zeta's beam rifle and hyper mega launcher, and the Super Gundam's long rifle, all fire the same kind of red-white beams as the ZZ's rifle and backpack cannons. This is the same effect used for warship cannons, but perhaps it's just a "hero color". The Zeta's rifle can shoot big holes through enemy mobile suits and destroy them with a single shot. Ditto the long rifle[/i], which one-shots a Hizack in episode 26 and then continues on to pierce the wrecked Gwazine behind it. On the whole, they seem to function similarly to the ZZ's beam cannons and the low-output mode of its double beam rifle.

The Zeta's hyper mega launcher doesn't do much. It first appears in episode 28, and gets cut in half by the Messala before Kamille has a chance to use it. In episode 29, Kamille's rapid-firing it at Hizacks and missing every time; functionally, it seems like a slightly more powerful version of the Zeta's standard beam rifle. In episode 34, though, it fires a massive fireball about 20 meters wide and completely vaporizes a Marasai. In this mode, it resembles the high-power combined beam of the ZZ's double beam rifle.

Likewise, in episode 33 the Super Gundam fires a high-power wide beam at a Hambrabi, completely vaporizing its leg. This beam is less than 10 meters wide, smaller than that of the hyper mega launcher, but definitely bigger than its normal mode.

When the Gabthley first shows up, there's much ooh-ing and aah-ing over the warship-class firepower of its fedayeen rifle. In episode 30, its beam collides with the Zeta's rifle and the two seem exactly matched, but normally the fedayeen rifle's beam seems somewhat wider. The Messala's mega particle cannons have similar effects, and can also pierce the hull of a Salamis.

Finally, the mega launchers! These seldom hit anything, but the Titans mega launcher in episode 27 fires a nice wide beam, which just misses Yazan's Gaplant and blows off its leg (the same thing that happens to the R-Jarja in episode 12 of ZZ). In episode 32, Char lands a couple of hits on the Dogosse Gier's catapult decks, which seem reasonably effective.

So far, then, I'd group these roughly as follows...

Zeta beam rifle & hyper mega launcher, Super Gundam long rifle, Gabthley fedayeen rifle, Messala mega particle cannons: All seem roughly equal in firepower, at least when they're in rapid-fire mode. The Zeta's rifle and the long rifle fire narrower beams; the fedayeen rifle and the Messala's cannons are wider. The listed outputs for these weapons seem to correspond pretty well to their on-screen firepower.

Hyper mega launcher and long rifle: Both seem to have a high output mode, which can't be used for rapid fire but produces a wider, more destructive beam. In this mode, they resemble the combined beam of the ZZ's double beam rifle.

Titans Mega launcher: The size of the beam, and its effects on nearby machines, strongly resemble the ZZ's high mega cannon. The mega bazooka launcher, to be honest, seems a bit less powerful. Though it seldom hits anything, it seems more comparable to the wide beams of the hyper mega launcher and double beam rifle.

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Retconned MSV Ace
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Sep 29, 2016 4:36 pm

Speaking of mega launchers, I just remembered the scene from Gundam evolve where the ZZ counters the mega launcher of a Doven Wolf with its High Mega Cannon, with the 40 MW beam essentially dispersed by the 50 MW.

I do wonder how much the difference in output needs to be in order to produce the aforementioned effect, instead of what we observe when the beam from Kamille's MK II (2.4 MW) collides with the one from Jerid's Marasai (2.2 MW), resulting in a blast that blows both MS away.

IIRC, the Gundam Evolve episode in question also shows the ZZ beam saber's having a ridiculous length.

User avatar
MythSearcher
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 632
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Sep 30, 2016 6:23 am

toysdream wrote:I'm not sure totaling up the outputs of all the mobile suit's weapons tells us anything very useful, since in most cases they don't use them all at the same time.
Well, the rationale of adding up the total output is to see what the MS is designed to be capable of.

Yes, in most cases they don't use them all at the same time, but in the less seen cases, they should be able to fire most of those weapons at the same time.
The concept is simple, you don't bring a ton of unused weapons around for no good reason, especially when the weapons are mostly similar in nature, all of them are just differently powered mega particle weapons. Since at least we know that the ability to change the output power of a weapon is not that far fetched, the output is called maximum output in some cases, a more powerful output only means you can step it down to some lower performance. So why install many guns instead of just a few?

Modern weapons like the tank evolved to adapt just 1 main gun, which makes it lighter, easier to turn its turret and more cost effective. The fighter carries many missiles since those don't require a barrel, and those can be fired, if necessary, all at once. The warships carry many weapons onboard, but those can all be fired at the same time, and the system onboard is capable of doing so.


The reason I brough up adding the total output of weapons is claiming that the Sentinel numbers are not really that far off from the ZZ era, and quite obviously just based on those. So it would be quite strange to think of them differently(as actual output instead of the output required by the weapons)

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Retconned MSV Ace
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:21 pm

The discussion about the deflection type mega particles has made me wonder what would it mean for the development date for the Zanzibar class: it's basically the only OYW Zeon ship to implement it. In fact, in the novels the Zanzibar class is claimed to be the newest class of cruiser.

This does comes at odds with a few things:

-The Dolos class, which is developed afterwards, "seems" to lack deflection type mega particle cannons. However, it should be noticed that in the third movie, the Dolos seems to have many small beam guns whose barrels can't be seen from the distance, which could suggest that these unseen turrets could actually be deflection type mega particle cannons.

-The Lili Marleen, supposedly an improved type of Zanzibar class ship, is said to have been deployed early during the conflict, but seems to lack deflection type mega particle cannons in favor of traditional more turrets.

I'm actually tempted to consider that the so called Zanzibar II or Zanzibar Kai might actually have preceded the standard Zanzibar, which is why it's using "older" type mega particle cannons. It's also questionable how the Lili Marleen would equip the booster used by the standard Zanzibar for leaving Earth, which is placed directly on top of its 4 main thrusters.

On a related note, if the Gwazine class was supposed to be able to enter Earth's atmosphere, I would like to assume that Zeon also meant for the ship to be able to be able to go back to space. In such case it was probably meant to be the designated class to carry VIPs, special forces and/or whatever important valuable people/equipment/resource that required a safer method for leaving Earth than a HLV or shuttle. In such case, the failed reentry test for the Gwazine probably also led to immediately secure an alternative ship for assuming such role.

Moving on, if we give weight to Gundam The Origin, by U.C. 0077 the standard Musai is still not around in its combat form, but only in its civilian use form, as seen in the 3rd episode of The Origin. Mark timeline's indicates that the Musai is first commissioned in in U.C. 0075, therefore it seems likely that this entry refers to the civilian version of the ship which would later be refitted for combat.

My point is: what if the Zanzibar class commissioned in U.C. 0076 is also a non-combat version that was later modified for combat? For instance, the Kerguelen from 08th seems to be a Zanzibar class ship without any noticeable weapons. I suppose it's possible it could be able to conceal them all when not in use, but what if it actually doesn't have any?

Perhaps, these hypothetical non-combat Zanzibar class ships could have been ready by U.C. 0076, and before or by the beginning of the war the design of the Lili Marleen is proposed as the configuration to use for them, but the advent of deflection type mega particle cannons and the idea of being able to send back Zanzibar class ships to space could have result in a change of plans, resulting in the standard model we have come to known.

As an extra, it would also make more sense for the newest model Zanzibar being the one for which the external hangar module from MSV-R is designed for, specially for the elite Chimera Corps fleet that are basically given top of the line equipment.

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Mon Oct 17, 2016 3:40 pm

I'm wary of trying too hard to reconcile The Origin with older published timelines. Technically none of the print material was ever (or could ever be) "official," and it's not yet clear whether Sunrise intends the animated Origin to serve as the back story for all flavors of First Gundam or only for itself. We probably won't ever get clear guidance on that, but the fact that the MSD spinoff is setting up justifications for things from the M-MSV series and 08th MS Team suggests that we should treat The Origin as the "real" back story and forget all the old stuff.

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Retconned MSV Ace
Posts: 1614
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:22 pm

But wouldn't that conflict with other "official" depictions of the early OYW, namely MS Igloo and more recently Gundam Thunderbolt?:

-Thunderbolt overall takes a simple approach to what we knew about the early conflict, showing Musais (which seem to be the MS Igloo retconned version) firing on colonies and EF ships during the One Week War. The EF also deploys Saberfish to little effect.

-My one glaring issue with Thunderbolt is the presence of Zaku I units using the same configuration as the Thunderbolt sector units. This is despite Thunderbolt showing at least a few MS using a configuration closer the originals versions, such as the few Zakus seen during the award ceremony at A Baoa Qu, the MS-06J Darryl imagines when testing the reuse system and the dark-colores MS-05 units that are part of the fleet dispatched to help the Living Dead division. I would be willing to assume that they could be experimental units for testing that equipment, but an official explanation would be very welcomed.

-For me MS Igloo gives us a skimmed version of the battle of Loum, namely because at the time the first episode was released, character models for the Zaku I and some ships such as the Chivvay hadn't even been made yet, while others such as the Zanzibar, Pazock or Saberfish were never added at all to the series. Certainly the little we have seen about the Battle of Loum on The Origin has some issues as well, such as the lack of the standard MS-06F, however I’m hoping such situation will be corrected in the announced Battle Of Loum arc OVAs announced back on May.

-MS Igloo also centers one episode on the Zudah, the so called rival of the Zaku I. Not mentioning it as a significant part of Zeon's MS development would The Hildolfr (which IIRC is even referred to as a Zaku Tank during the episode) which is essentially stated to have been developed as a ground use unit alternative to the Zaku would. Also, it has been pointed out that the Hildolfr seems to have its torso based on the Xamel’s (or the other way around in-universe). MS Igloo also gave at least one other nod to 0083 by mentioning Neuen Bitter in the 2nd OVA of MS Igloo 2.

By the way, I want to point out that currently it seems ships used in recent years are a mixed bag from all over the place:

The MS Igloo Musai is now commonly used instead of the original design, and it evens nerved as the base door the Musai Kai seen in Unicorn. On the other hand, the Chivvay class has been continually given new designs, without Sunrise setting for a particular one. The version from Origin is used in its namesake work and was also spotted the Mayfly Of Space 2 drama, serving as Asakura’s ship. On the other hand, Thunderbolt used the MS Igloo design with some minor changes, notably the removal of the lower main turret in exchange for additional AA turrets. The MS Igloo version also served as the base for the Unicorn novel version of the Chivvay Kai. Finally, a small cameo of a Zanzibar ship of the same class as the Lili Marleen can be seen in the final scene when the ship carrying Darryl approaches A Baoa Qu. It can be easily identified thanks to its engines placed on the sides and the noticeable hangar door in the middle.

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Sun Oct 30, 2016 8:26 pm

I suspect that part of this is due to recycling of existing CG models at Sunrise central. When it comes to the early days of the war, for whatever reason, the Chivvay has been largely written out, and almost all the Zeon ships we see are Musais. (Which is consistent with the opening flashback scenes in First Gundam).


Getting back to the superweapons for a minute, I've been continuing to tinker and add to that big comparison graphic...

http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/superweapons2.jpg

Recent additions include the Val-Walo and Bigro (MS Igloo version), Big-Zam, ReZEL and Nu Gundam HWS, and a variety of warship gun turrets. I also swapped in the Gundam UC version of the Nahel Argama and the Pegasus III from Gundam Sentinel, for a consistent Katoki-style comparison.

The Nahel Argama is pretty big here; I laid in the original ZZ version, scaled to 380 meters, and then sized the Gundam UC version based on the parts they have in common. Due to all the layout changes and extended catapult decks, the Gundam UC version would be about 460m long.

One interesting tidbit: Based on their official length specs, the Cailum and Clop classes have different-sized gun turrets, even though they look pretty similar design-wise. The turrets on the Nahel Argama resemble the smaller Clop versions.


I've also been continuing my study of beam weapon effects in the animation. It really seems, though, that most of the powerful weapons in Zeta and ZZ have variable output settings, and can be used in either a low-power rapid-fire mode or a full-power mode with limited shots and a longer charging time. I'm not sure we ever see things like the Doven Wolf's mega launcher, or the high mega cannons of the Geymalk and Jamru-Fin, operating at full power.

-- Mark

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests