Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

The future is now. This is the place for mecha and science.

Moderators: ShadowCell, Heretic, mcred23, EZero8, Draco Starcloud, SNT1, Kenji

Post Reply
E08
Mysterious Masked Dude
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:00 am

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by E08 » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:36 pm

About the Gouf's heat sword, the original MG Gouf kit's manual explains it as a polymeric compound given a shape memory treatment or something to that effect.

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 am

Aha, a source cite at last! Thank you! Here's what it says in the MG kit manual...
A slashing weapon that instantly forms a heat-generating element from high polymer compounds stored in the grip that have undergone a shape memory process, thus forming a huge superheated sword. As the main components of the heat-generating element are ceramic particles, this is basically a disposable weapon.
Sounds a bit magical, but it works for me.


Meanwhile, I've been browsing through my library for more info on Gundam communications. Early in the Gundam Unicorn novels, we're told that voice communication normally works up to a range of 20 kilometers, no matter how high the Minovsky particle density. So there seems to be a consensus that you can get video up to 10 km and audio up to 20 km using conventional "wireless" (i.e. radio) communications.

The Gundam Unicorn novels also make frequent reference to "object detection sensors" (対物感知センサー, which Google seems to want to equate to the term "proximity sensors"). These are the basic mechanism by which mobile suits detect the presence of enemy machines, although they apparently can't pick up small objects like funnels. Their performance is diminished by the presence of Minovsky particles and debris, but in the case of the Geara Zulu, they can cover a radius of 20 kilometers even with Minovsky particles at standard combat density.

Given that the Geara Zulu's "effective sensor radius" spec is listed as just over 18 km, I think it's likely that these are supposed to be similar concepts. And indeed, the specs chart in Entertainment Bible 1 explains that the sensor radius spec indicates "the enemy search range of the main camera". So this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with targeting range - it seems to be related to the performance of the mobile suit's proximity sensors.

That said, the sensor radius specs that EB1 lists for the classic mobile armors are much higher, and it seems unlikely that (for example) the Elmeth can really detect enemy mobile suits from 100 times as far away as a Zaku can...


EDIT: Reading on a bit further, we get some clarification on those "object detection sensors," which are referred to halfway through the second volume as "object radar" (対物レーダー). Here's the relevant passage, which provides a nice summary of standard mobile suit tactics as of U.C. 00996...
Though it's called visual combat, when conducted in space, the ranges are incredibly wide. Because everyone is moving at a speed of several kilometers per second, after crossing paths, they can swiftly become separated by a distance of 100 or 200 kilometers. Thus, the job of a pilot is to detect enemy machines using object radar effective within a radius of 20 kilometers, then approach to a distance where they can be seen with optical sensors - the mobile suit's "eyes" - and launch an attack in the instant when they cross paths. Though there are cases where they cross swords with beam sabers at zero range, in the case of firefights, the basis is to establish a distance of 10 kilometers and then circle round into each other's blind spots.
-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Retconned MSV Ace
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:23 am

toys dream wrote:As far as the Dom's chest widget, the explanation given in recent kit manuals and publications is that it was originally meant to be an "energy supply terminal" for use with beam weapons, and was later adapted into a blinding device. By this account it was never meant to be a weapon in the first place, but I think if anyone knows how to find new uses for makeshift equipment, it would probably be the Black Tri-Stars. :-)

-- Mark
That explanation doesn't sound very convincing, specially when we have units such as the MS-09RS and MS-09H which are known to operate beam weapons without any sort of cable connecting to the chests section. On the other hand, the Zaku Cannon's chest cables are what I would imagine such a design would look like.

Like I pointed out previously, I'm under the impression that in the original TV series the Dom's chest beam spray gun was supposed to work similarly to the Zanzibar's deflection type mega particle cannon, since both weapon could fire beams and produce blinding lights.

More into the realm of speculation, I was thinking that perhaps in the original series the Dom and Gogg were supposed to be more tightly related (besides being built by the same company, Zimmad), with both units being rather bulky, having similar heads and a similar cockpit armor section, and of course the round beam emitters on the chest.

Can't help but think that IRL the Gogg was basically the result of someone asking to create an amphibious MS using the Dom as a base.

User avatar
MythSearcher
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 648
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:19 am

toysdream wrote:
Sure, but that still means that the output specs we have for every other weapon are basically meaningless, and have no relationship to the power of the weapon; only this one mislabeled, unexplained chart from a kit manual contains any useful information. That's kind of an extreme view, don't you think?
Just saying this is close to the 12MW- output power from the Musai cannon, and actually supports the view that the beam rifle is on par with battleship cannons.

I personally don't really think it is on par with battleship cannons...

The Japanese publications have always been very insistent that the Zaku, and other early mobile suits, don't have enough electrical power to run beam weapons. (Obviously they must have power connectors in their hands because they use them to run their heat weapons.) The Gundam, and the Gelgoog, specifically have higher-performance generators for this reason. It says this in virtually every single published source. I could provide cites but it would basically be flogging a dead horse...
I always thought that was talking about e-cap technology, the lack of it in those units.
Also, the lack of enough power usually means it is impractical, not impossible for them to do so, which the e-cap fixed to a certain point.

The power output requirement for utilizing the weapons are always so strangely listed, while we have MSs that can use both beam sabre and beam rifle at the same time in the OYW, higher generator output unit Hizack in 0087 was said to be unable to do so.
As far as Amuro knowing about the Gundam and/or mobile suit technology ahead of time, I think it's pretty clear this is a matter of retcon and fan speculation. Based on the animation itself there's no evidence he knows anything about this before he sees the manual; he recognizes a Zaku when he sees one ("I-Is this Zeon's Zaku?") and when he opens the manual he says "Th-This is a Federation mobile suit..." Not exactly evidence of deep familiarity.
I guess, but at least he seems to be much more familiar than the Reah kids.
Gelgoog Jager wrote:Since in another discussion it was pointed out by Mythsearcher that an explanation do was given for the Ramba Ral's "beam saber", it actually being a heat sword made with memory metal, I was wondering if there could also be a canon explanation for the Dom's beam gun as well?
I don't think we ever found a source for that "memory metal" thing - it may just be fan speculation (so-called "fanon") rather than "canon". As far as the Dom's chest widget, the explanation given in recent kit manuals and publications is that it was originally meant to be an "energy supply terminal" for use with beam weapons, and was later adapted into a blinding device. By this account it was never meant to be a weapon in the first place, but I think if anyone knows how to find new uses for makeshift equipment, it would probably be the Black Tri-Stars. :-)

-- Mark
BTW, wouldn't that Dom's explanation kinda like Red Astray's hand cannon?
toysdream wrote:Aha, a source cite at last! Thank you! Here's what it says in the MG kit manual...
Sounds a bit magical, but it works for me.
I'd swear I've seen that before, I guess I was too reliant on Gundam Officials.
Meanwhile, I've been browsing through my library for more info on Gundam communications. Early in the Gundam Unicorn novels, we're told that voice communication normally works up to a range of 20 kilometers, no matter how high the Minovsky particle density. So there seems to be a consensus that you can get video up to 10 km and audio up to 20 km using conventional "wireless" (i.e. radio) communications.

The Gundam Unicorn novels also make frequent reference to "object detection sensors" (対物感知センサー, which Google seems to want to equate to the term "proximity sensors"). These are the basic mechanism by which mobile suits detect the presence of enemy machines, although they apparently can't pick up small objects like funnels. Their performance is diminished by the presence of Minovsky particles and debris, but in the case of the Geara Zulu, they can cover a radius of 20 kilometers even with Minovsky particles at standard combat density.

Given that the Geara Zulu's "effective sensor radius" spec is listed as just over 18 km, I think it's likely that these are supposed to be similar concepts. And indeed, the specs chart in Entertainment Bible 1 explains that the sensor radius spec indicates "the enemy search range of the main camera". So this doesn't necessarily have anything to do with targeting range - it seems to be related to the performance of the mobile suit's proximity sensors.

That said, the sensor radius specs that EB1 lists for the classic mobile armors are much higher, and it seems unlikely that (for example) the Elmeth can really detect enemy mobile suits from 100 times as far away as a Zaku can...

EDIT: Reading on a bit further, we get some clarification on those "object detection sensors," which are referred to halfway through the second volume as "object radar" (対物レーダー). Here's the relevant passage, which provides a nice summary of standard mobile suit tactics as of U.C. 00996...
Though it's called visual combat, when conducted in space, the ranges are incredibly wide. Because everyone is moving at a speed of several kilometers per second, after crossing paths, they can swiftly become separated by a distance of 100 or 200 kilometers. Thus, the job of a pilot is to detect enemy machines using object radar effective within a radius of 20 kilometers, then approach to a distance where they can be seen with optical sensors - the mobile suit's "eyes" - and launch an attack in the instant when they cross paths. Though there are cases where they cross swords with beam sabers at zero range, in the case of firefights, the basis is to establish a distance of 10 kilometers and then circle round into each other's blind spots.
-- Mark
If we are talking about sensors, after OYW, they do have sensors sensing the interfering wave in M particles and utlized that in EWAC units to search for enemies.
P.682 in Gundam Officials.

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:42 pm

Gelgoog Jager wrote:That explanation doesn't sound very convincing, specially when we have units such as the MS-09RS and MS-09H which are known to operate beam weapons without any sort of cable connecting to the chests section.
I agree - it's not a very convincing explanation, given that we've never seen any UC mobile suit with a chest plug of that type, and this feature is completely missing from the YMS-08B and the Prototype Dom. More likely it's just a wimpy little diffuse beam cannon which was added to the production version of the Dom at the last minute.
On the other hand, the Zaku Cannon's chest cables are what I would imagine such a design would look like.
My personal fanon is that the Zaku Cannon's chest cables are the result of a completely different internal layout from the regular Zaku - I think its generator is in its upper chest, like the Gelgoog, rather than in its waist as with the standard Zaku. And thus its cockpit, whose location and hatch design has always been unclear, is actually located in its waist just like the Hizack and the Desert Zaku from ZZ, which incidentally also have those unusual chest vents.

But I digress...
More into the realm of speculation, I was thinking that perhaps in the original series the Dom and Gogg were supposed to be more tightly related (besides being built by the same company, Zimmad), with both units being rather bulky, having similar heads and a similar cockpit armor section, and of course the round beam emitters on the chest.
Although Zimmad hadn't been invented at that point, these two do have something else in common - the original designs were redrawn by Yas to make them more impressive onscreen. So perhaps Yas is Zimmad? :-)

MythSearcher wrote:Just saying this is close to the 12MW- output power from the Musai cannon, and actually supports the view that the beam rifle is on par with battleship cannons.

I personally don't really think it is on par with battleship cannons...
Yeah, you've convinced me on that score. Based on that 0083 drama CD, if the 4.8 MW prototype beam rifle converts the generator output directly into beam power, then it's 40% as powerful as the 12 MW warship cannons used at the start of the war. And standard medium-range beam rifles, whatever kind of multiplier the E-CAP system gives them, should be even less powerful.
I always thought that was talking about e-cap technology, the lack of it in those units.
The generator's electrical power output does seem to be a limiting factor as well; in Gundam Century, we're told that the Gundam's output had to be increased after rollout to meet the electrical power requirements of its beam rifle's Energy CAP.
If we are talking about sensors, after OYW, they do have sensors sensing the interfering wave in M particles and utlized that in EWAC units to search for enemies.
I dimly recall that being mentioned in Gundam Sentinel or something like that, but it doesn't seem to play much of a role in the animation or in Gundam Unicorn. Even the EWAC Zack, according to the kit manuals, relies mostly on passive detection of enemy radar emissions, since this remains in use even under Minovsky particle conditions.

Incidentally, if radar allows you to detect enemy machines at a range of 20 kilometers as of Gundam Unicorn, then that's about 1/10 the detection range of a modern fighter plane's radar system. Definitely a substantial decrease, and earlier machines with their shorter sensor ranges would be even more handicapped.

-- Mark

mastergundam1k
Mecha Flunky
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:33 am

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by mastergundam1k » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:38 am

Are the power sources in Wing, X and G really ultracompact fusion reactors as it says in the mahq profiles?

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:48 am

That's a bit beyond the original scope of this thread, but I guess I didn't specify "UC Gundam Tech Tidbits." :-)

I think the Data Collection book on Gundam Wing mentioned that they use fusion reactors, but as far as I know X and G are much less clear, and MAHQ probably just copy-pasted that from their standard profile format. I'll dig around and see what else I can turn up...

-- Mark

mastergundam1k
Mecha Flunky
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:33 am

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by mastergundam1k » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:54 am

Oh, thanks. So it's speculation/copypaste then. For example:
-EW Gundam/Tallgeese III thrusters must be rocket engines, but we don't know if they're plasma/thermonuclear/etc.
-Aries must be jet engines because of the intakes

I wonder if Federation MS from AGE use plasma reactors and plasma thrusters since I remember someone mentioning AGE-1 had plasma control device or something

User avatar
MythSearcher
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 648
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Tue Sep 13, 2016 9:45 am

toysdream wrote:
I dimly recall that being mentioned in Gundam Sentinel or something like that, but it doesn't seem to play much of a role in the animation or in Gundam Unicorn. Even the EWAC Zack, according to the kit manuals, relies mostly on passive detection of enemy radar emissions, since this remains in use even under Minovsky particle conditions.

Incidentally, if radar allows you to detect enemy machines at a range of 20 kilometers as of Gundam Unicorn, then that's about 1/10 the detection range of a modern fighter plane's radar system. Definitely a substantial decrease, and earlier machines with their shorter sensor ranges would be even more handicapped.

-- Mark
From what's written there, it seems to say that it is not a really reliable method of detection. Yes, you know if there are enemies, and a very very rough quantity of them(but cannot distinguish a genuine unit over a dummy balloon.) Likely you cannot even tell if those are friend or foe.
So I guess why EWAC units still need to rely on other methods of detection.

The EWAC Nero's 6250km is still an overkill compared with others though. You wonder how on Earth did it get spotted and destroyed in Sentinel.

User avatar
Brave Fencer Kirby
OMG Doomsday Laser
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2007 3:14 pm
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Brave Fencer Kirby » Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:07 pm

Regarding the comparison between the Gundam's beam rifle and a battleship cannon, I always figured that that was simply a reference to the fact that the beam rifle could one-shot a Zaku with a direct hit, just like a battleship cannon. After all, as far as battlefield tactics are concerned, "can kill you with one shot" is basically as powerful as weapons ever get.
Fighting evil so you don't have to!

User avatar
MythSearcher
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 648
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:16 am

Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:Regarding the comparison between the Gundam's beam rifle and a battleship cannon, I always figured that that was simply a reference to the fact that the beam rifle could one-shot a Zaku with a direct hit, just like a battleship cannon. After all, as far as battlefield tactics are concerned, "can kill you with one shot" is basically as powerful as weapons ever get.
Well, that might also be the case.

On the other hand, though I am not really supportive of the idea, there is one possibility that it can be rationalized.

The Beam Rifle have that kind of output power is because of the lack of tech knowledge in making anything weaker than that(due to the lack of testing of the minimal possible triggering energy) They just build whatever they can minimize the size of the ship cannons to and add in the e-cap. Since the energy level is high, it is rather easy to trigger the degeneration and fire the weapon. Yet it is uglily over powered.
Thus later beam weapons are weaker due to the advance in technology, they now have the time and stability to test out the minimal requirements and you simply don't need that much energy to finish off a MS. This also explains the lower power of GP01 beam cannon, etc.

Anyway, this still can't explain the Nu Gundam's rifle vs shield cannon, which will stay as a bug until the descriptions get changed.

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Wed Sep 14, 2016 11:09 am

It's also possible that we could honor the written descriptions and (selectively) discard the output specs for the CCA weapons. To be honest, some of those figures are pretty wacky, and they only ever appeared in the old kit manuals and Entertainment Bible 3 - they weren't part of the original published specs.

In fact, if the Nu Gundam's beam rifle "has power rivaling the main gun of a contemporary warship" and "the beam cannon's output rivals that of a One Year War-era beam rifle" (quoting exactly from the HG-UC kit manual), and we're applying a modest "energy discount" for E-CAP weapons, it would make more sense to just swap the listed outputs for these weapons.

As discussed above, the E-CAP discount factor should be substantially less than 3.2 (otherwise the GP01's rifles and the Doven Wolf's mega launcher don't make sense). But even if it's only a factor of 2.0, then a 7.8 MW beam rifle would equate to a 16 MW warship gun, and a 3.8 MW beam cannon would equate to a 1.9 MW beam rifle. The beam cannon description specifically refers to output so we should be able to make a direct comparison in that case.

16 MW does seem low for a warship main gun, implying that these haven't gotten any more powerful since the One Year War. I wonder how we should expect a warship gun to compare to the various mega launchers and high mega cannons that appear in Zeta and ZZ?


EDIT: Just for comparison, the Nu Gundam HWS kit manual says its hyper mega rifle, at maximum output, "displays power rivaling that of several warship turrets." Yowza! So maybe CCA-era warship guns aren't super-powerful after all; if they were rated at about 16 MW each, then the FAZZ's high mega cannon would be equal to five of them.

As for the two mega particle cannons in the HWS's high mega shield, the kit manual says that "this unit alone has power rivaling that of a high mega cannon." So figure maybe 25 MW each? Pretty reasonable compared to the shield-mounted high mega cannon of the Gundam Delta Kai, whose output is supposedly 45% of the ZZ's weapon (so about 22.5 MW).

-- Mark
Last edited by toysdream on Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:46 pm

Aaaaand one more followup. In considering all these various permutations of beam rifles, I'm wondering about the ZZ and the Doven Wolf, which really stick out for having vastly overpowered beam rifles. (Nothing else in ZZ goes much over the 4 MW mark.) Do we know for a fact that these so-called "beam rifles" actually use E-CAPs or E-packs, or is there the possibility that they get their particle supply directly from the mobile suit, like the GP01's prototype beam rifle? If so, then they may not get that "E-CAP discount" we've been discussing.

In the case of the ZZ's double beam rifle, the published descriptions make it sound a lot like the GP01's prototype beam rifle or the Zeta's hyper mega launcher. For example, from the MG kit manual:
The MSZ-010's main weapon, the double beam rifle, has power rivaling that of a mega bazooka launcher but is also capable of rapid fire. This is because the module itself not only contains multiple generators, but can also receive an energy supply from the main body.
What about the Doven Wolf's beam rifle? There's a box shape at the back that looks like it might perhaps be an E-pack, but like an idiot, I didn't keep the diagram from the old 1/144 kit manual with all the labeled callouts...

-- Mark

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Retconned MSV Ace
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Sep 14, 2016 1:37 pm

The UC profile of the Ga-Zowmn would seem to indicate that at least some Axis/Neo Zeon units did use direct generator feed:

Its large weapon, the hyper knuckle buster, was changed from the previous type with a direct generator connection to a hand-held E-pack type, improving its overall fighting abilities.

http://www.gundam-unicorn.net/ova/en/ms/03.html#17

Also, IIRC at the end of the 2nd Zeta movie, the Argama crew is analyzing the Gaza C and among other things they mention that Gazas have an external power block. Personally I always assumed it referred to the power source for its knuckle buster.

Straying a bit out of topic, is there any new info on the Capule's weapons? IIRC it was said to have a laser beam and a sonic blast weapon, but the Bande Dessinee manga (at least I think it was that manga) also gave it some chest beam cannons using the square openings on its chest jacket. I was wondering if the later replaced the former two, which have never been seen in use, AFAIK.

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:31 pm

Yes, apparently the Ga-Zowmn's hyper knuckle buster uses an E-pack, while those of the Gaza C and Gaza D are connected directly to the generator. So essentially the hyper knuckle buster is a beam rifle, and if E-CAP and E-pack weapons are extra-powerful relative to their listed power output, this would explain how this weapon is superior to the previous versions even though its output spec is lower.

Meanwhile, more data points for the ship-to-MS weapon comparison...

The MG kit manuals say that the hyper mega cannon used by the FAZZ "has power comparable to the main gun of a standard fighting vessel of the time" - I swear they use that comparison for everything! - while the S Gundam's beam smartgun "doesn't have the power of a mega bazooka launcher."

The "imidam" encyclopedia from the Gundam Sentinel book says, in reference to the mega bazooka launcher, "its power far surpasses that of the average warship's main gun."

I suppose part of this may depend on exactly which warship you're using as a reference point. The Argama-type cannon mounted on the Deep Striker is impressively huge, but a lot of these weapons are far smaller, and since we aren't sure how big the Salamis is - and thus the Salamis Kai and Alexandria - it's hard to use their guns as a reference point.

-- Mark

User avatar
MythSearcher
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 648
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:22 pm

toysdream wrote:It's also possible that we could honor the written descriptions and (selectively) discard the output specs for the CCA weapons. To be honest, some of those figures are pretty wacky, and they only ever appeared in the old kit manuals and Entertainment Bible 3 - they weren't part of the original published specs.

In fact, if the Nu Gundam's beam rifle "has power rivaling the main gun of a contemporary warship" and "the beam cannon's output rivals that of a One Year War-era beam rifle" (quoting exactly from the HG-UC kit manual), and we're applying a modest "energy discount" for E-CAP weapons, it would make more sense to just swap the listed outputs for these weapons.

As discussed above, the E-CAP discount factor should be substantially less than 3.2 (otherwise the GP01's rifles and the Doven Wolf's mega launcher don't make sense). But even if it's only a factor of 2.0, then a 7.8 MW beam rifle would equate to a 16 MW warship gun, and a 3.8 MW beam cannon would equate to a 1.9 MW beam rifle. The beam cannon description specifically refers to output so we should be able to make a direct comparison in that case.

16 MW does seem low for a warship main gun, implying that these haven't gotten any more powerful since the One Year War. I wonder how we should expect a warship gun to compare to the various mega launchers and high mega cannons that appear in Zeta and ZZ?


EDIT: Just for comparison, the Nu Gundam HWS kit manual says its hyper mega rifle, at maximum output, "displays power rivaling that of several warship turrets." Yowza! So maybe CCA-era warship guns aren't super-powerful after all; if they were rated at about 16 MW each, then the FAZZ's high mega cannon would be equal to five of them.

As for the two mega particle cannons in the HWS's high mega shield, the kit manual says that "this unit alone has power rivaling that of a high mega cannon." So figure maybe 25 MW each? Pretty reasonable compared to the shield-mounted high mega cannon of the Gundam Delta Kai, whose output is supposedly 45% of the ZZ's weapon (so about 22.5 MW).

-- Mark
I did forgot one of the most important evidence of battleship cannon output, the Irish class cannon.

This is a good example of battleship cannon output since we know the connection of all the input cables is at 12MW+X4(Ex-S and S[Bst] beam cannon output)
In fact, if we take the 56MW beam smart gun as the output(assuming it is non-e-cap because 100MW+ for it will sound pretty over powered compared to the FAZZ Hyper Mega Cannon), the cannon seems to be at least, if not more powerful than that. If not, it will just be plain stupid to strap the heavy and turretless cannon on and not simply install another beam smart gun, which even the Z plus varient has a 50MW max output.
So a baseline estimate of the Irish class cannon should be at 50MW, I'd say with all the efficiency of using a fixed mount, that should be more like at least 1.5 to 2 times that output, so around 75~100MW+. Notice the FAZZ HMC is actually more mobile than that, but I guess we also have the limited firing rounds(10 in Sentinel) before it overheats, so I guess Irish class cannon rating about 75MW would also go well with Sentinel's own settings.

And since the Irish class is a battleship, the Mega Bazooka/Beam Smart Gun's 56MW maybe compared to a light cruiser's main gun like the Salamis/Musai? If we use the 12MW rough estimate, it does far surpass that. And the Beam Smart Gun's lower working output is 12MW, so things look well.

Maybe the Irish class has a more powerful main gun than the CCA period, there's a civil war going on to begin with, with Axis/Neo Zeon having a whole lot of super big ships, but the CCA period Neo Zeon ships does seem to be a bit smaller. Ok, not a bit, much much smaller, the length of their main ship, Gwadan vs Rewoola is halved in the given number of a 600m in fact file vs 250m, and from our previous discussion, Gwadan appears to be more like 800~900m(And I personaly like the 1200m scale Sentinel's models used) vs Rewoola's 350m.


This also gets to a more military efficiency question.
Why on Earth do they not install e-caps on all guns?
What's the advantage of sticking with the condensor type cannons?
Obviously when using the e-cap the output requirement has been lowered and you can get more powerful shots out of it.
And if they are using so much of it on mass produced MSs, it does not seem to be an expensive alternative.
Or is it that it is so common, everything use e-cap and thus they are not written in the settings? Just like the magnetic coating, I just kinda assume it to be standard issue after 0083. Is the e-cap tech standard issue even if they still use the condensor in the cannons?

User avatar
Gelgoog Jager
Retconned MSV Ace
Posts: 1640
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:33 pm

Regarding the use of E-Caps and E-Pacs by battle ships, could be an issue of limitations on the capacity of these? We know for certain that the Unicorn, and supposedly the Gallus J, used beam magnums that essentially consumed one whole E-Pac per shot. Perhaps there's some technical limitation that doesn't allow them to be bigger or store more particles beyond certain point?

As for Neo Zeon Warships, didn't the discussion ended up assuming that the Rewloola had to be at least 500m long based on the scene where it's carrying the Alpha Azieru? In such case it also ends up being almost half as long as the longest measurement for the Gwadan (1,200m).

Back to beam guns, this reminded me of the odd evolution of the EF's warships AA turrets:

-By 0079 EF warships still rely on regular machine gun turrets for AA defense.
-By 0083 EF warships like the Salamis Kai(0083) and specially the Magellan Kai adopt laser turrets.
-By 0087 EF the Alexandria class seems to use smaller mega particle cannons for AA defense.
-By 0093 EF warships like the Clop and Ra Calium go back to machine gun turrets for AA defense.

It could simply be a cause of them experimenting what worked best, specially against MS. But considering how ships like Clop end up being less heavily armed than even the aging Salamis Kai, I'm also inclined to think that it could be a sign of the beginning of the EF's decline forcing them to use more simple ship designs and rely more on MS.

Another thing I was wondering is if there's any particular advantage, specially technologically or energy-wise, for using single barrel main guns over double barrel one, as far as mega particle cannons are concerned. In the OYW most Zeon warships had double barrel turrets (the Chivvay even had triple barrel ones). However, the Gwanban class, which we presume was completed just before the end of the war, has already witched to single barrel turrets. The Endra class follows suit despite being a descendant of the Musai class. The Gwadan uses double barrel turrets again, as the Musaka and Rewloola.

The later puzzle me, since the Musaka and Rewloola could be though to be ships seeking cost performance above anything else due to the strained financial situation of Neo Zeon movement at the time, but the Gwadan is essentially on the opposite spectrum, being a warship giant warships where cost didn't seem to be an issue.

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Fri Sep 16, 2016 2:46 pm

I don't think we can assume that each of those connectors on the Ex-S backpack is limited to supporting 12 MW worth of beam weapon. After all, there's a configuration of the Core Booster 0088 that has a beam smartgun mounted on a single connector. Most likely, it doesn't matter.

On the other hand, given the MG kit manual's claim that the FAZZ hyper mega cannon is comparable to a warship main gun, I think it's reasonable to compare it to the Argama's main gun. Which is, incidentally, one of the biggest of its time.

So hypothetically, we could say that warship gun outputs probably range between 12 MW (as per the 0083 drama CD) and 80 MW between the start of the One Year War and the pinnacle of the Zeta era. Most of the large mobile suit weapons we're looking at would fall somewhere in between. And back at the start of this thread, we noted that the high output setting of the Mega-Rider appears to be in the range of 40-50 MW. Here's roughly what I'm thinking...

80 MW: FAZZ hyper mega cannon, Argama main gun?
50 MW: ZZ high mega cannon
~40-50 MW: Mega-Rider with E-cartridge
40 MW: Jamru Fin & Doven Wolf mega launchers
30 MW: Jamru Fin & Geymalk high mega cannons
25 MW x 2: Nu Gundam HWS high mega shield
~22.5 MW: Gundam Delta Kai high mega cannon
~20-30 MW: Mega-Rider (normal mode), Zeta's hyper mega launcher, G-Defenser long rifle (at high output)
12-15 MW: battleship-class main gun at start of One Year War
10.6 MW x 2: ZZ double beam rifle

I have the impression the Mega Bazooka Launcher is comparable to the normal mode of the Mega-Rider and the Zeta's hyper mega launcher, and it's also been compared to the ZZ's double beam rifle, but I suppose it could be substantially more powerful. (It's supposed to be more powerful than the S Gundam's beam smartgun, but then again, Sentinel outputs are really high across the board.) As per the comparison graphic, it's physically similar in size to the FAZZ's hyper mega cannon.


Why don't warship guns use E-CAPs? Really, the main thing those help with is lowering the electrical power requirements for firing. If that's not a limitation, then all it's doing is making the particle generation mechanism more complicated. Based on the cutaway diagrams, the rest of the gun mechanism is pretty similar, so if the size of the actual turret and barrel is your limiting factor - and your ship has enough electrical power to run those guns without E-CAPs - then it's probably not necessary.

In the case of the "fourth-generation" mobile suits from ZZ, with their huge mega particle cannons that are directly connected to the generator and store their particles in "mega condensers," it seems that doing away with E-CAPs actually increases the maximum possible output of the weapon. So this may be a limiting factor; the Mega-Rider's energy cartridge is the only example I can think of where a huge beam weapon actually uses E-CAP-type storage.

As for double turrets on ships, good question. What's the reason for this on real-world warships? Could be something similar.

-- Mark
Last edited by toysdream on Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
MythSearcher
Elitist Earth Politician
Posts: 648
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:36 pm

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Sep 16, 2016 3:35 pm

toysdream wrote:I don't think we can assume that each of those connectors on the Ex-S backpack is limited to supporting 12 MW worth of beam weapon. After all, there's a configuration of the Core Booster 0088 that has a beam smartgun mounted on a single connector. Most likely, it doesn't matter.

On the other hand, given the MG kit manual's claim that the FAZZ hyper mega cannon is comparable to a warship main gun, I think it's reasonable to compare it to the Argama's main gun. Which is, incidentally, one of the biggest of its time.

So hypothetically, we could say that warship gun outputs probably range between 12 MW (as per the 0083 drama CD) and 80 MW between the start of the One Year War and the pinnacle of the Zeta era. Most of the large mobile suit weapons we're looking at would fall somewhere in between. And back at the start of this thread, we noted that the high output setting of the Mega-Rider appears to be in the range of 40-50 MW. Here's roughly what I'm thinking...

80 MW: FAZZ hyper mega cannon, Argama main gun?
50 MW: ZZ high mega cannon
40-50 MW?: Mega-Rider with E-cartridge
40 MW: Jamru Fin & Doven Wolf mega launchers
30 MW: Jamru Fin & Geymalk high mega cannons
20-30 MW?: Mega-Rider (normal mode), Zeta's hyper mega launcher, G-Defenser long rifle (at high output)
10.6 MW x 2: ZZ double beam rifle
12-15 MW: battleship-class main gun at start of One Year War

I have the impression the Mega Bazooka Launcher is comparable to the normal mode of the Mega-Rider and the Zeta's hyper mega launcher, and it's also been compared to the ZZ's double beam rifle, but I suppose it could be substantially more powerful. (It's supposed to be more powerful than the S Gundam's beam smartgun, but then again, Sentinel outputs are really high across the board.) As per the comparison graphic, it's physically similar in size to the FAZZ's hyper mega cannon.


Why don't warship guns use E-CAPs? Really, the main thing those help with is lowering the electrical power requirements for firing. If that's not a limitation, then all it's doing is making the particle generation mechanism more complicated. Based on the cutaway diagrams, the rest of the gun mechanism is pretty similar, so if the size of the actual turret and barrel is your limiting factor - and your ship has enough electrical power to run those guns without E-CAPs - then it's probably not necessary.

In the case of the "fourth-generation" mobile suits from ZZ, with their huge mega particle cannons that are directly connected to the generator and store their particles in "mega condensers," it seems that doing away with E-CAPs actually increases the maximum possible output of the weapon. So this may be a limiting factor; the Mega-Rider's energy cartridge is the only example I can think of where a huge beam weapon actually uses E-CAP-type storage.

As for double turrets on ships, good question. What's the reason for this on real-world warships? Could be something similar.

-- Mark
Well, just using 12MW as the baseline, like I said up there, it should be able to do higher.
Those beam cannons are using e-caps, which makes thing even more strange if the generators can fire the beam smart gun without any e-cap technology.

The e-cap and condenser switch is about efficiency. If means that you don't need that many power to fire the weapon, which in turn means that you can either use a smaller power source(lighter) or simply have a higher firing rate/more weapons.

The double/triple/quatriple turrets IRL basically increases both the chance of hitting the target(since now you have 2~4 rounds flying towards the same general direction. You don't need to aim multiple single barrel gun turrets at the same target which is more likely to be slightly off. This also increases the damaging power if multiple shots are hit. On top of that, eventhough it makes the turret turn slower(heavier), it actually saves weight of the ship compared to having the same number of barrels on different mounts turning separately. It would be also easier to store the rounds for all of those guns closer to each other and thus easier to reload.

I'd say reloading isn't much of a problem for beam weapons, but the chance and damage for hitting will be similar.(At least under the influence of M particles)
Single barrel guns might be preferable if the turn rate is too slow, I am all for rationalizing the Salamis having mutliple single barrel main guns as EFSF at least predicted Zeon using smaller crafts as their main offense and thus designed to have a faster aiming rate and against multiple targets.(while Magellan is used for taking out larger ships, since at its design, M particle was not yet discovered.)

toysdream
Master of Mecha
Posts: 3252
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 12:24 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
Contact:

Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:35 pm

We don't actually have much information about Sentinel weaponry, aside from the occasional reference to the beam smartgun using an energy CAP. (In fact, the MG kit manual identifies the block at the rear of the gun as an energy pack.) To me, the bulbs at the ends of the S Gundam's backpack cannons resemble the energy packs of the GM Cannon II; the thigh beam cannons, which are connected directly to the body, could more plausibly receive their energy supply from the mobile suit itself.

It occurs to me - and maybe this is a good time to mention it - that the beam weapon outputs from Gundam Sentinel could perhaps be interpreted as the output of the beam rather than the generator power required to fire it, thus providing an apples-to-apples comparison between E-CAP and generator-connected weapons. But in general, the outputs are simply really really high, and even weapons like the GM III's beam sabers and the Gundam Mk-V's incoms have outputs more than twice what we've seen for the identical weapons in Gundam ZZ.

-- Mark

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests