Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

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toysdream
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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:40 pm

Jameedaark wrote:P.S. In the Doven Wolf schematics there are two labeled e-cap. The n.3 and n.15.
The first resemble a condenser but the n15 is very similar to the e-cap of the rx78 beam rifle e-cap.
Wht do you think?
And the other armaments of the doven wolf as the hand beam gun, or binder cannon are without e-cap?
Regards
The second "E-CAP" (labeled 15) does look way more E-CAPpy, but it's not obvious what it's connected to. A redundant backup for the chest cannons, or a general-purpose particle tank?

The HG-UC kit manual says the backpack cannons are also directly connected to the generator, but frankly I'm skeptical - their output seems kind of low compared to similar weapons such as the ZZ's generator-connected backpack cannons (rated at 10 MW apiece).


Regarding warship cannon charging times, a couple more data points. In the Unicorn novels, the Nahel Argama seems to spend about four minutes charging its hyper mega particle cannon during the attack on Palau (it begins accelerating five minutes before firing, shuts down its engines one minute later, and then cruises on inertia while charging the cannon.) In episode 17 of ZZ, when the Argama first fires its own hyper mega particle cannon, we're told at one point that it's 60% charged 60 seconds before firing - this implies a total charging time of 150 seconds.

From previous discussions, it seems like these weapons are very roughly 20 times as powerful as a standard warship main gun, so you'd expect the latter could be charged in about ten seconds.

-- Mark

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:54 pm

In such case, why does the Famel needs to charge for 15 minutes before firing its mega particle cannons?

Could it have been a mistranslation for 15 seconds, or could the Famel's reactor had been shut down before resupplying for whatever reason (maybe for maintenance), and thus the 15 minutes would represent the time it takes to restart it, rather than the time the mega particle cannons themselves need before they start firing?

I guess my question ultimately boils down to: would a Musai on patrol duty or cruising around space need to charge for several minutes before it could respond to an ambush with its mega particle cannons? And by extent, can we assume the same is true for any other OYW warship?

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:13 pm

Not sure what you're referring to. In one point in First Gundam episode 3, we're told that Char's Musai will need 5 minutes and 20 seconds to charge its mega particle cannons; Dren remarks that this is really slow, and that the main engine power has fallen too much.

It's possible that the Musai may be in some kind of idling mode during its resupply. Bright later remarks that the Musai can't use its mega particle cannons during resupply, although it's unclear whether this is an issue of tactical positioning or power output; either way, they timed their attack accordingly.

In the original First Gundam setting notes, we're told that warship cannons "require a five-second interval between uses to accumulate electrical and magnetic power" (they hadn't invented the concept of mega particles when the setting notes were written). That sounds more like what we see in the animation.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:47 pm

I don't know where I got that figure: I was quoting myself from a previous post on this same thread a few months ago, but now I don't know where I picked that number back then or if it was a typo.

Still, you have essentially answered my question about the situation of the Famel at the time, which from your explanation do seem to have been caused by the resupply procedure and wouldn't reflect the normal circumstances.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:55 pm

toysdream wrote:
From previous discussions, it seems like these weapons are very roughly 20 times as powerful as a standard warship main gun, so you'd expect the latter could be charged in about ten seconds.

-- Mark
Well, these things should be charging like a capacitor, thus they are not linear.(Inductors are also similar)
They should be pretty quick in increasing percentage-wise at first, but slows down.

http://www.learningaboutelectronics.com ... arging.php
As an example, this charges to 60% at about 1-unit of time and you don't get 100% until the 5th-unit.

So it charges 60% in 20% of time and 100% at 100% of time.
So the Argama example you gave should only need 75s of total charging time if the curve is similar to this one.

It makes sense that way, with the pressure in the chamber building up, it will be harder and harder to compress further with the same force/input power applied.

The actual time required should also depends on the generator output.
It is not very likely that the Argama and Nahel Argama uses the same generator as the OYW ships.
And the other ships are quite different in designs compared to those with a Hyper Mega Cannon that drains lots and lots of power and renders it almost immovable while charging.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:57 pm

On the other hand, this isn't an electrical capacitor; it's accumulating special magical particles that are presumably being generated at a consistent rate. Unless the generation of particles tapers off over time, that shouldn't make a difference. But it's fantasy science, so who knows?

-- Mark

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:54 am

toysdream wrote:On the other hand, this isn't an electrical capacitor; it's accumulating special magical particles that are presumably being generated at a consistent rate. Unless the generation of particles tapers off over time, that shouldn't make a difference. But it's fantasy science, so who knows?

-- Mark
Well, I see it differently.
A Mega Particle cannon compresses an I-Field(M particle lattice) with an EM Field.
Thus you are using a fixed input (EM Force generated by the generator) to compress an increasing density of M Particles. Whether you keep adding in the particles or compress a fix amount, doesn't really matter, the density increases and the pressure increases before it degenerates into Mega Particles, where the EM Field cannot contain the mega particles and they expand outwards, controlled by the outer layer I-Field, and directed towards the opening becoming the beam.
This should be the official concept of the Mega particle cannon.

Yes, it is not an Electrical Capacitor, but the curve should be similar.

Anyway, even if you use a linear line, different input power should still give you a different slope and thus different charging time.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:49 am

Very interesting.
About Jamru Fin,in many description we read about its armament:

" high mega cannon, power rated at 6 MW in mobile suit mode and 30.1 MW in mobile armor mode, mounted in torso;"

Why in mobile suit mode it has 6 MW and in mobile armor 30.1 Mw?

And second question, I've found these:
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... 0709134717

In this image the specs of jamru fin about is chest mega cannon say 6 to 10 MW and not 6 to 30.1.
Am I wrong?

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:21 am

To MythSearcher.
Can you tell me in which volume of CDA is seen the time of ship recharging cannons?
I'm reading CDA now but I haven't find anything.
Can you post an image?
Thx.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:29 pm

6-10 MW in mobile suit form, 30.1 MW in mobile armor form. It's never explained why - there's very little info on this machine - but maybe the "arms" serve some kind of accelerator function.

-- Mark

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Fri Dec 30, 2016 2:54 pm

Jameedaark wrote:To MythSearcher.
Can you tell me in which volume of CDA is seen the time of ship recharging cannons?
I'm reading CDA now but I haven't find anything.
Can you post an image?
Thx.
Good that you asked, it's been a while and I didn't remember the correct time for charging.

Towards end of vol 7, a modified Zanzibar is charging 3 guns at the same time with 1 fully charged, one at -42s and one at -72s(half of the bar is filled).
Since the bars are also showing grids, each box is about 10s, so to fully charge, the rate seems to be around 140~150s.

In start of vol 8, the Salamis was training and caught off guard and needed 270s to fire its main guns.
I assumed this is not the regular charging time but rather the Salamis had poorly trained crew(thus it is training) and got preventative measures to stop it from accidentally causing friendly fire in training.
While the Zanzibar, again showing the same charging screen, showed -100s~-121s with 3~5 boxes filled in all of the bars.
This time, you can clearly tell there are 15 boxes on each bar, thus a charge time of 150s is assumed to be regular.
Noting the main guns and secondary guns seemed to be working on separate generators, they can fire the secondary guns without delaying the charging of the main guns.

Somehow I just figured I only have vol 1~8, and don't really recall the story pass that, so I guess I will need to buy 9 onwards now.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:41 pm

The Jamru Fin's chest cannon is supposedly capable of attacking warships from outside their sensor range, so I would like to imagine that the arms help not only charge its main weapon, but also control the direction of the focused beam better.

I would like to think that the concept is similar to that of the Nahel Argama (0096 refit) with the bunch of rings it lines up in front of its hyper mega cannon, or the AMA-100 Zodiack, which I would like to assume also uses the fuselage to assist its mega particle cannons in some capacity.

Oddly enough the Mahq profile has different power outputs for the Jamru Fin equipped with and without the Mega Booster, not only in MA mode (increasing power from 30.1 MW to 40.5 MW), but also for its MS mode, gaining a minor increase from 6 MW ago 6.2 MW.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:01 pm

That's an error. The mega launcher in the booster has an output of 6.2 MW when it's not connected to the Jamru-Fin itself - same kind of setup as the Doven Wolf's beam rifle.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:45 pm

Thank you so much for your answer.
After reading them, I have a question.
Assumed all the "fictional teory" on minowsky particle, a mega cannon can fire al low output but higher rate of fire? For example, a mega cannon can fire when the condenser is at 50% of its capacity? If this is "possible" then perhaps is explained why we see in animation high and low rates of fire.
Best regads and Happy New Year!!!

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:19 am

Jameedaark wrote:Thank you so much for your answer.
After reading them, I have a question.
Assumed all the "fictional teory" on minowsky particle, a mega cannon can fire al low output but higher rate of fire? For example, a mega cannon can fire when the condenser is at 50% of its capacity? If this is "possible" then perhaps is explained why we see in animation high and low rates of fire.
Best regads and Happy New Year!!!
I've seen depictions of beam rifles talking about max output, like the Mk-II and the Unicorn(okay, its a beam magnum, similar) If you have a max, I'd expect you have a min.

The PG manual of RX-78 also showed us a graph of various power vs firing range, so I guess you can change that as well, even if only in a lab setting.

I don't recall seeing any mechanism explaining how on Earth do you get different outputs in the same gun though.
Technical rationalizing, since you need the same pressure to degenerate the Minovsky particles to Mega particles, it will be really hard to change the power as long as you have a same chamber volume. I guess you can simply put less particles in it to begin with, the efficiency graph should look more like a bell curve, for you must have a designed optimal power range, and other ranges you simply get less efficicent. Say, if you are compressing a really small amount in a large chamber, you do need more energy to maintain the field strength across the space.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:20 am

About charging rate of Zanzibar in CDA, I,ve read the volume.
It seems to me that this particular cannon is a special cannon like a hyper mega beam cannon.
This can explain why every barrel has a 150 seconds charging time.
The other mega cannons perhaps don't have such long recharge time.
It's very confusing about mega cannons in animation of most gundam series.
Most of times we see battles in which ships fire at a rate like several rounds every few seconds.
The data of gundam universe are very very confusing and contradictory....

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:52 pm

Jameedaark wrote:About charging rate of Zanzibar in CDA, I,ve read the volume.
It seems to me that this particular cannon is a special cannon like a hyper mega beam cannon.
This can explain why every barrel has a 150 seconds charging time.
The other mega cannons perhaps don't have such long recharge time.
It's very confusing about mega cannons in animation of most gundam series.
Most of times we see battles in which ships fire at a rate like several rounds every few seconds.
The data of gundam universe are very very confusing and contradictory....
You may want to check Ship Generations.
Similar to MS, the 1st gen are ships designed between OYW and Gryps War.
The 2nd gen ships are designed to utilize MS from the design stages, has much higher generator output and mainly use Mega Particle cannons as its main weapon.
Ships from the 1st Neo Zeon conflict are equipped with more powerful Hi-mega Cannon in addition to the already common Mega Particle Cannon in the 2nd gen ships. On top of that, those equipped with Atmospheric entry Ballute system, Minovsky Craft capable of atmospheric flight and power to escape from Earth's atmosphere are classified as 3rd gen.(I must say that the escape part isn't escape from gravity, but probably just sub-orbital flight. Since quite a few listed 3rd gen cannot escape from Earth's gravity by themselves.)

Since the modified Zanzibar in question isn't even modified in Gryps War, I'd be pretty hard pressed to believe it got 3 Hi-mega Cannon.
Also, the Salamis main guns also takes time to charge, maybe not 270s, but still shouldn't be much shorter than the required time given.
The Zanzibar and Salamis are both OYW cruisers, I don't think the main guns will be that much different. And most of the more powerful guns depicted in other ships seems to also drain the ships of most of their power output, and kinda rendered them quite invulnerable while charging.(WB, Argama, Nahel Argama, etc.) This Zanziber seemed to be quite mobile and shooting secondary beams at a pertty high rate.

Two other reference point of data can be found in Gundam Officials, the light cruiser Musai required few minutes to charge its main guns(P.690) and Gundam Encyclopaedia Ver. 1.5, generators output problems causing them unable to rapid fire.(P.013)

The problem lies here isn't really just about the ships rapid firing. My main concern of GMs being able to charge its spray gun in 40s meaning the power required by the weapon isn't that great, and the whole "charging too slow for MS" idea to rationalize the need of e-cap and lack of beam weapons in early Zeon MS simply becomes moot. You just need around 3 low power mega beam cannons on a Zaku to let it have a firing rate of around 20s a shot with the GM spray gun power. This is well within reasonable time against a warship, which is pretty much all the Zakus needed to handle in the beginning.

Also, if ships really can rapid fire, say, equipped with small guns like the GM spray gun, and firing at a much higher rate since the ships have much higher generator output, the MSs hardly stand a chance.

I guess you can still use the economic stand point to counter the wide spread usage of such weapons on ships, but looking at the number of MS vs ships, that is not really that much more convincing.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Deacon Blues » Sun Jan 01, 2017 1:45 pm

Well the problem with the Zanzibar that we see in the manga is that it is classified as a "Zanzibar Kai." This name, though, is not repeated in the Official Guide for the series, so go figure. It's ripe with craziness as usual as the MS capacity of it is said to be 4, which is a step up from the ones in the past (depending on what source you use that is: they range from 3, 6, 9, 12 and 16). However, whereas most of the armaments of the Zanzibar say "2-barrel mega particle cannon," the one specifically from CDA is called a "large 2-barrel mega particle cannon". If anything, the "Tom, Dick, and Harry" are the three capacitors required just to fire their main cannon. Each capacitor would allow for one round of firing from both barrels. When you think about it, it kinda makes sense when Natalie fires off two rounds to finish off the enemy. She needs one for the first kill then to bust through for the second one, which she couldn't do with just one charged capacitor.

All in all though, I'd say that rough estimate of the charge time applies just to this particular cannon model since it's considerably larger than the others.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Sun Jan 01, 2017 2:43 pm

About Ship Generations, is possible to find data about ship generators?

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:26 pm

Happy new year, all!

That bit with the Ingolstadt (the modified Zanzibar) is interesting and a little weird. As far as I can tell, it only has one main cannon, and they're building up a charge so that they can fire it three times in rapid succession. (So maybe there are three chambers in its capacitor, or something.) Since it has the power to destroy a warship with one shot, I'm tempted to speculate it's a high-powered mega particle cannon like those on the sides of the White Base, but there's not enough information to support that.

Probably this calls for some detailed analysis of ship battles in the animation, stopwatch in hand. A 2017 project!

-- Mark

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