Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Henyo » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:25 pm

the beam confuse.

how in Oldtypes name did Kamille did it? via Biosensor? or just plain tech from the Zeta? any in-universe explanation for the move?

also, have there been any other weapons like this in the Gundam series? UC or otherwise.
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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Dark Duel » Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:43 pm

I'd appreciate if you could elaborate, because it's been a looong time since I've seen Z and I have no idea what you're referring to. But if it's something that happened in the finale around the time the Z started glowing pink, I'd be inclined to put it down to "Biosensor/Newtype ex Machina"
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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Henyo » Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:16 am

Dark Duel wrote:I'd appreciate if you could elaborate, because it's been a looong time since I've seen Z and I have no idea what you're referring to. But if it's something that happened in the finale around the time the Z started glowing pink, I'd be inclined to put it down to "Biosensor/Newtype ex Machina"

It's this one.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... am+confuse

and another one just to be on the safe side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Y1YSeMk-4

Thank you youtube.
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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:26 pm

Henyo wrote:
It's this one.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... am+confuse

and another one just to be on the safe side.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_Y1YSeMk-4

Thank you youtube.
Tossing out the beam sabre and shooting at it, spreading out M particles and Mega particles to hit a wider area?

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=13801

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:39 pm

About Beam weapons and recharge times, is possible to find some data?

I've found these data in a traduction of Master Archive but I don't know if the translation is accurate:

"BOWA BR-M-79C-1
BEAM SPRAY GUN

The rate of fire has been increased by 20% over the experimental XBR-M-79, and burst firing mode allows the weapon to fire 16 shots in rapid succession. While the power output of the weapon is relatively high at 1.4MW, the energy cap can be completely charged from an empty state using the RGM-79’s main reactor in approximately 40 seconds.

BOWA BR-S-85-C2
BEAM RIFLE

The sensor system utilizes a high resolution optical camera, which simultaneously reduces costs and allows for a smaller form factor, but some pilots complained that in long range engagements ‘even vulcans would be more effective’, leading to the introduction of a 24 round burst firing mode. However, the minimum energy recharge time from an empty state (enough power for a single shot, as opposed to a full charge) has been reduced to 15 seconds, which earned the support of many pilots.

BLASH XBR-X-79YK
SNIPER BEAM RIFLE

Though the weapon is capable of producing a continuous beam for up to six seconds, the combined output of just the gun’s internal battery and the Mobile Suit’s generator is insufficient for sustained fire, and so additional energy from an external generator option is required. However, even without an external generator there is enough stored energy for two volleys of fire, but with the long minimum recharge time of 120 seconds it was difficult to deploy effectively in combat, and despite the excellent accuracy and extreme power of the weapon it was only introduced into a few combat situations."

I think there are some contradictions but we can speculate and found someting interesting about beam guns capacity and recharge time.
What do you think about these data?

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:17 am

According to Mark, 40 seconds is the time it takes for recharging enough energy for a single shot of the GM's beam spray gun, not the entire e-cap:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 77#p296318

The Jegan's beam rifle is likely capable of recharging faster simply due to the larger generator output of the MS, though any other technological improvements taking place between U.C. 0080 - 0093 are likely to help as well.

Also, if I'm not mistaken not all GM models are capable of recharging their beam weapons. The Gundam also seems to be incapable of recharging its beam rifle without returning to the ship.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Sat Dec 24, 2016 9:30 am

Thank you very much Jager.
I think Mark is right. 40 seconds to replenish the entire Ecap seemed a little to much quick.
And is compatible whit the sniper rifle of the gm ground type that is 3.8Mw and without external source of energy can replenish a single shot in 120 seconds.
And in 0087 is "realistic" that the GMII can charge a shot of the 1,9MW rifle in 15 seconds.
(in battle 15 seconds is in any case an eternity).
Probably the Gundam is not capable to rechage is weapon because is a prototype older tha GM and lacks of the plug, or for some other reasons as costs or weight.
From this data I'm curious if it is possible to extrapolate some recharging times of Mega cannons directly attached to the main reactor as Zion mobile armors...

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:01 pm

i just realized you were talking about the GM II's beam rifle, though I'm puzzled about the "burst firing mode" that you mentioned since we never see that weapon operate like that. I do know one of the Jegan's beam rifles do is capable of doing so by U.C. 0093. The most similar case I can think of a Gryps era weapon working like that is the Hizack beam rifle in the PS2 Gundam VS Z Gundam, where the weapon operated like a beam machine gun when used by the Marasai, something which the devs might have assumed possible given the difference in generator output between the RMS-106 and the RMS-108.

As for the mega particle cannons on MAs, I'm afraid the data on e-cap beam rifles won't be very useful since most MA beam weapons are powered directly be their own generators. You might want to check the first couple of pages of this thread where among other things we discussed the differences between an e-cap based beam weapon and some early Zeon beam rifles built without e-caps:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 5&start=40

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:02 pm

Yes, I've read the entire discussion, but the distinction between e-cap beam rifle and mega cannon about the output seems to me a little misleading.
It's evidence from the animations that beam rifles have high ratio of fire than the mega cannon because of the e-cap but also the mega cannon of ships, mobile armors and special mobile suits are more powerful. The blast of mega cannon is usually larger and long lasting, but the rifles fire short burts of mega particle. On the contrary the mega cannon have a slow rate of fire, usually they fire once every many seconds, because connected directly to the main reactor.
This to me seems reasonable.

I've read the "Beam Weapon Outputs Revisited" but the teory of "A standard mega particle cannon has four times the power output of the equivalent E-CAP based weapon" does not convince, in my opinion.

All this is based on some quotes that compares beam rifles of the rx78 and the nu gundam to a ship class mega cannon.
Probably this quotes are to take with a pinch of salt.
What about if they are simply a way of saying that the 1.9mw rifle is very powerful or they are simply phrase put in the manuals by mistake or inverted?

The Messala for example, in this thread:
"Messala: According to the HG-UC kit manual, its mega particle cannons are connected directly to the generator. Entertainment Bible 2 estimates their output at 11.3 MW."

https://s24.postimg.org/xtpyab5wl/Mobile_Weapon_5.jpg

But in the schematics is clearly visible and written energy-CAP.
Is incorrect?

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:39 pm

I know that at least the MSM-07E and MSM-10 used a sort of hybrid system that used both E-caps and direc trees from the generator. In the particular case of the Z'gok E, supposedly it could store energy on its E-caps for rapid fire bursts, while still being able to rely on its generator to keep firing regular shots after the E-cap was emptied or while it was recharged.

It's possible the Messala had a similar system. Still, most MAs seem to have powerful enough generators as to overcome the need of E-caps. Maybe Scirocco had to use a smaller generator than required as fit along the unit's transformation system?

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by toysdream » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:47 pm

The Messala profile in Entertainment Bible 2 is somewhat contradictory - the text says its mega particle cannons are connected directly to the generator, but the cutaway shows devices labeled E-CAPs. Personally, I feel like the latter is an error. If you look at the diagrams of the beam rifle and warship cannon in Entertainment Bible 1, I think it's pretty clear that the barrel-shaped module in the Messala cutaway was actually meant to be an energy condenser.

http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/eb1_compare.jpg

I'd say the exact same for the Doven Wolf cutaway in the same book. Though it's labeled as an E-CAP, the barrel-shaped device behind the chest mega particle cannon looks like an energy condenser, and it's usually said that these weapons are connected directly to the generator.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... apon_6.jpg

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:44 am

toysdream wrote:The Messala profile in Entertainment Bible 2 is somewhat contradictory - the text says its mega particle cannons are connected directly to the generator, but the cutaway shows devices labeled E-CAPs. Personally, I feel like the latter is an error. If you look at the diagrams of the beam rifle and warship cannon in Entertainment Bible 1, I think it's pretty clear that the barrel-shaped module in the Messala cutaway was actually meant to be an energy condenser.

http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/images/eb1_compare.jpg

I'd say the exact same for the Doven Wolf cutaway in the same book. Though it's labeled as an E-CAP, the barrel-shaped device behind the chest mega particle cannon looks like an energy condenser, and it's usually said that these weapons are connected directly to the generator.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/gun ... apon_6.jpg

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Design wise, I'd be pretty inclined to have both systems.
Just add a bypass on the E-cap so you can stop charging it and use the directly connected E-condenser.

This way you can even have an overdrive mode where both sources is drained at the same time for maximum output. (With the payoff of heavier gun that can take that kind of power)

BTW, 40s for the GM is quite fast, if it can do so for 1 shot, the Zeon shouldn't have much problem in building MSs with beam weapons without e-cap tech that can shoot once every other minute.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:16 am

@Mark: the internal design of the Messala's cannon is pretty similar to the cannon with the energy condenser, so probably is an error of the label. Probably even in 0087 e-cap tecnology is difficult to high output cannons like that of the Messala. But however it bugs me that the rifle of the zeta (5.7mw) has an e-pack with at least 7/8 shots and the Psyco Gundam or the Doven Wolf have torso beam gun without an e-cap despite their lower output.
Also the little generator of the messala compared to MA such Bigro or Wal Valo seems me inadeguate to a 2 x 11.3 Mw armament.

@MythSearcher: 40 seconds to recharge a shot seems not so fast to me when in middle of a battle and normal weapons have a rate of fire of many bullets per seconds.
Wht I find strange is that the e-cap and e-pack tecnology is applied to beam rifles in 0087 but not on mega beam cannon. For example the psyco is said to have ecap in the hands beam gun but not in torso. The lacking of ecap in zion mobile armors is justified by that time, less in 0087.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:33 am

P.S. In the Doven Wolf schematics there are two labeled e-cap. The n.3 and n.15.
The first resemble a condenser but the n15 is very similar to the e-cap of the rx78 beam rifle e-cap.
Wht do you think?
And the other armaments of the doven wolf as the hand beam gun, or binder cannon are without e-cap?
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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Sun Dec 25, 2016 12:35 pm

Jameedaark wrote: @MythSearcher: 40 seconds to recharge a shot seems not so fast to me when in middle of a battle and normal weapons have a rate of fire of many bullets per seconds.
Wht I find strange is that the e-cap and e-pack tecnology is applied to beam rifles in 0087 but not on mega beam cannon. For example the psyco is said to have ecap in the hands beam gun but not in torso. The lacking of ecap in zion mobile armors is justified by that time, less in 0087.

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Well, that really depends what kind of weapon we are talking about. In most depictions, the beam weapons are really really fast projectiles, which would be pretty much hit wherever you aim at when you pull the trigger and thus reaction time and the lead time of the enemy really doesn't matter.

In layman terms, you cannot dodge a beam shot.(unless you are a newtype or a really really good ace and can start dodging before the enemy pulls the trigger, aka Char in MSG saying how he dodged the beam rifle, he simply dodged away from where the gun is pointing)

So you do not need many shots to begin with. All you need are pilots that are trained to not randomly shoot but aim well before hand.
BTW, the Zeon's main targets are ships, I think that should be really easy to aim and the ships are impossible to stay away from where the guns are pointing.

And in most depictions, at least in the original MSG show, beam weapons are the nigh-almighty weapon(sans I-Field), it can destroy almost everything, so you do not really need a lot of shots, at most 3 can sink a light cruiser, I'd say 1 is enough, don't know why Amuro needed to also shoot the engine blocks of that Musai.

Even if we step down the power, and think of each beam fired is only as powerful as the hyper bazooka or 120~180mm cannons the MS use, it is still going to be much more accurate, and bazookas/cannons don't have that many shots to begin with.


And last, if you read earlier posts in this thread, I have the same question you do, I have no idea why e-cap technology is not applied to all beam weapons. It is simply the more effective way to work with. I say that it can be done without in this post just because the fast charging contradicts the reason given in publications stating it is impractical to have beam weapons on MSs because the MS generator charges the beam too slow. In earlier settings, we are talking about a few minutes for a ship gun to charge up, and that is adapted in CDA and the cruisers used 90~150s per shot per gun after the first barrage. Granted the GM spray gun is much weaker than ship guns, but 40s for a tiny gun like that? I'd be inclined to just equip 2 per MS so you still have 20s/shot are the e-caps run out.
Oh, and I'd swap the beam rifle on Gundam to a GM that can charge the weapon, and let a sniper be the ship destroyer from the back. That gun can shoot pretty far and Zeon simply do not have that many ships to stand the shots.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Sun Dec 25, 2016 6:22 pm

From wat we can see in animation, mega cannons and rifles are all but precise.
Yes, the particles are fast but many times we can se them miss the targets.
Only elite pilots and newtype hit with few shot, but elites pilots and newtypes are few.
The mass pilots of an army are the regular pilots.
I dont know what is CDA but in Igloo in the battle of Loum, Federal and Zion ships exchage mega shots at a high rate of fire; every ship fire one shot once every one or two seconds, and 90% of these shots miss.
With minosky particle and only optical targeting, seems also a large ships are difficult to hit.
Indeed with a gundam, a newtype, by surprise, without antiaircraft and at 500m or less, hit a musai does not seem very difficult with a mega rifle...

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by MythSearcher » Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:31 pm

Jameedaark wrote:From wat we can see in animation, mega cannons and rifles are all but precise.
Yes, the particles are fast but many times we can se them miss the targets.
Only elite pilots and newtype hit with few shot, but elites pilots and newtypes are few.
The mass pilots of an army are the regular pilots.
I dont know what is CDA but in Igloo in the battle of Loum, Federal and Zion ships exchage mega shots at a high rate of fire; every ship fire one shot once every one or two seconds, and 90% of these shots miss.
With minosky particle and only optical targeting, seems also a large ships are difficult to hit.
Indeed with a gundam, a newtype, by surprise, without antiaircraft and at 500m or less, hit a musai does not seem very difficult with a mega rifle...
Ship cannons are really hard to get precise.
They are not built to be precise, even if they are, the movement of the crew members onboard will make it have a vibration enough to shake it up so that it randomly points in a diameter of around 50~100m per second from the point it is aiming to at about 1000km away.

That is why you either need to have ships with very very little crew members and have really good computer onboard to auto cancel out and vibrations the machines are making(but still pretty much useless when it got any damage since the mass distribution will be nigh impossible to calculate) or you need cannons that can move away from the ship and connect to as things with as little random movement as possible.(aka space fighters, and in this case, MSs)

Igloo timing is simply faulty. Ships turn in speeds that will create 300+gs.(They turn almost as fast as MSs sometimes)
Ships of 200m+ length don't turn 90~180 degrees in a dozen of seconds.
I must say Igloo obviously tweaked up the speed by a lot, probably by a magnitude or two, for dramatic purposes. The slow motion in that show is more realisticly what the speed should be.


CDA is Char's Deleted Affairs.
The time needed is clearly stated and seen on screen of the operators.

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:24 pm

Yes, indeed the ships guns are difficult to aim and the minimal error of a mm can become hundreds of metres at distances of 30/40Km.
Probably the timing from Igloo is faulty or intentional to dramatize the battle scene.
Anyway 150 seconds to load a cannon seem to me a very long time. The 381mm OTO/Ansaldo 381/50 of WW2 ships fired a shot every 45 seconds. It seems strange that two hundred years later have worsened. Is it not that the 150 seconds refers to the total charge time of all guns in CDA?
In what ship do you see that?

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Gelgoog Jager » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:30 pm

I posted this on a mother thread, but I think it might also be relevant for this discussion:

Mark once posted that a ship needs to spread Minovsky particles for 20 minutes to reach combat density on a radius of 50 km. After two hours the radius is halved (25 km) and two hours later (4 after the initial spread) they only remain right next to the source. As for the actual effects: radar and guided weapons become useless within 20 km range and communications will be affected within a 40 km range.

Also, Mark speculates that the maximum firing range within Minovksy particle conditions to be around 300 km.

For more info, check Mark's post:

http://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php? ... 74#p342986

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Re: Random Gundam Tech Tidbits

Post by Jameedaark » Mon Dec 26, 2016 6:44 pm

Thx, I had read Mark's post and for aiming range and minowsky dispersion I agree with Mark.
But about rate of fire and recharge time, I still think that 150 seconds (Chars deleted affairs) to load a ship mega cannon seem to me a very long time. The naval guns of WW2 ships fire a shot every 45 seconds.
Perhaps it refers to all the ship's guns togheter?

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