Because of the Minovsky particles, long-range communication is pretty hindered in U.C era. We have seen from Zeta and ZZ that during a ship-to-ship battle where Minovsky particles is spread, two ships can only communicate to each other when they are within the sight of each other. MS-to-MS communication is even in shorter range, and the MS have to literary touch each other when doing so.
So, it is certain that MS designer would try to improve upon communication.
My question here is: Is the V-fin shaped antennae of Gundam models (be it two or four fins) is actually good for sending and receiving signals? First of all, they don't have any mean to focus the signal into a focal point like a satellite dish? Secondly, they can't swivel to find the sweet spot, while the movement of every Gundam-type head seem to be pretty limited until now (they have no neck).
A real-life example could be seen with Wifi router in real life. You know all those video which they used aluminum beer cans to amplify the signal?
P/S: To think about it, any one can explain how the "Rabbit Ear" of the Ez8 is actually more efficient that the V-fin? I actually don't buy into it too much, because at that period of time the percentage if Minovsky particle in the atmosphere wasn't that much.
Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
The Ez8 in particular is a special case, because it's pretty much something that was cobbled together in the field from whatever parts they could scrounge up, and apparently there wasn't all that much they had on hand in terms of spare parts for the RX-79[G] anymore by that point - also seen when Karen's machine got its head punched off by an Acguy, and they had to patch it up with a GM[G] head instead of replacing it with a new Gundam[G] head. So presumably the Ez8 looks the way it does perhaps because they didn't have the spare parts to replace the damaged V-Fin with an identical one, so they cannibalized the antenna they did install from something else.
And on a related note, here's a follow-up question on the subject of the V-Fin and/or antennae on Gundams: In most - not all, but most - cases, the GM series tend to not have an external antenna on the head at all. Why is that, and why is it that it never really seems to make a difference to the best of my recollection?
And on a related note, here's a follow-up question on the subject of the V-Fin and/or antennae on Gundams: In most - not all, but most - cases, the GM series tend to not have an external antenna on the head at all. Why is that, and why is it that it never really seems to make a difference to the best of my recollection?
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"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
As I recall, I have seen numerous debunking of the aluminium can amplifying signal passages.False Prophet wrote:Because of the Minovsky particles, long-range communication is pretty hindered in U.C era. We have seen from Zeta and ZZ that during a ship-to-ship battle where Minovsky particles is spread, two ships can only communicate to each other when they are within the sight of each other. MS-to-MS communication is even in shorter range, and the MS have to literary touch each other when doing so.
So, it is certain that MS designer would try to improve upon communication.
My question here is: Is the V-fin shaped antennae of Gundam models (be it two or four fins) is actually good for sending and receiving signals? First of all, they don't have any mean to focus the signal into a focal point like a satellite dish? Secondly, they can't swivel to find the sweet spot, while the movement of every Gundam-type head seem to be pretty limited until now (they have no neck).
A real-life example could be seen with Wifi router in real life. You know all those video which they used aluminum beer cans to amplify the signal?
P/S: To think about it, any one can explain how the "Rabbit Ear" of the Ez8 is actually more efficient that the V-fin? I actually don't buy into it too much, because at that period of time the percentage if Minovsky particle in the atmosphere wasn't that much.
It has to do with a lot of wave length and absorption and interference.
MS touching each other when communicating usually have 2 reasons, not that they cannot do so without touching.
1) better reception thus better bandwidth, meaning you can transmit more data in the same interval.
2) Limited access, meaning your communication will not be intercepted by other parties.
Talking about 2, I like how Miniskirt Space Pirates(The light novel) used the idea of sound vibrations transmitted can be intercepted in the whole space station/colony idea, so if you want secrecy there, you better pay for vacuumly separated areas.
Anyway, older TV antennae look like a pole with protruded branches at right angle(and some other look like a metal fence), WWII era warships also has a lot of straightly protruded antennas on them.
If you take the Yamato class as an example, you can see the inverse triangular pyramid antenna behind the bridge and a V shape protrusion from the back of the bridge(which I am not really sure if it is an antenna or not.)
The Nagato class, Nelson class has similar protrusions as well. While the US ships usually are more...retangular in shape.
I don't think they are that optimized, but surely they are trying to optimize the reception of different frequencies.
I have seen antennae taken apart and you have a bunch of coils lined up inside, so the exterior might not be that important.
BTW, the wiring are used as absorbing radar signals as a pretty early stealth measure(also used on warplanes)
Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
The issue with The Rx-79 line was that it was made only from leftover Rx-78-1 spec parts rejected from the first three units. and basically were made until the parts ran out. so there wasn't any spare parts beyond salvage from fallen units in the RX-79 and RGM-79[G] lines or newly tooled parts for custom units.Dark Duel wrote:The Ez8 in particular is a special case, because it's pretty much something that was cobbled together in the field from whatever parts they could scrounge up, and apparently there wasn't all that much they had on hand in terms of spare parts for the RX-79[G] anymore by that point - also seen when Karen's machine got its head punched off by an Acguy, and they had to patch it up with a GM[G] head instead of replacing it with a new Gundam[G] head. So presumably the Ez8 looks the way it does perhaps because they didn't have the spare parts to replace the damaged V-Fin with an identical one, so they cannibalized the antenna they did install from something else.
And on a related note, here's a follow-up question on the subject of the V-Fin and/or antennae on Gundams: In most - not all, but most - cases, the GM series tend to not have an external antenna on the head at all. Why is that, and why is it that it never really seems to make a difference to the best of my recollection?
Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
That's exactly my point(and I apologize if that wasn't clear). Because of its unconventional origin - being put together from leftover Project V spare parts in the first place - spare parts for the entire 79[G] line - both the Gundam and GM - were only available in very limited quantity, and no additional parts were being made.
Ergo, when the time came to repair Shiro's machine, they simply did not have the parts on hand to repair it conventionally. Thus, they had to scrounge up whatever they could and cobble it together with what remained of the mobile suit into something that could be used, which is how we got the Ez8.
Ergo, when the time came to repair Shiro's machine, they simply did not have the parts on hand to repair it conventionally. Thus, they had to scrounge up whatever they could and cobble it together with what remained of the mobile suit into something that could be used, which is how we got the Ez8.
// ART THREAD // NOT ACCEPTING REQUESTS
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"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."
Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
Off topic but at that point why did they not say, "Sorry pilot, your gundam's now spare parts. Have a GM instead."? Besides the whole mid series upgrade thing
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
A couple of possible reasons. The most obvious one to me might be that the Kojima Battalion simply did not have a conveniently available GM lying around waiting for a pilot, meaning that they had no choice but to somehow find a way to repair what they had. So since structurally it was still fine/repairable, they cobbled together what they could from what spare parts they did have lying around to get it combat-ready again.
I'd have to rewatch the corresponding episodes, as it's been years, but from what I recall, most of the damage suffered by Shiro's Gundam was to the torso/cockpit block and armor....I don't remember any major structural damage or missing limbs, but I could be mistaken there.
I'd have to rewatch the corresponding episodes, as it's been years, but from what I recall, most of the damage suffered by Shiro's Gundam was to the torso/cockpit block and armor....I don't remember any major structural damage or missing limbs, but I could be mistaken there.
// ART THREAD // NOT ACCEPTING REQUESTS
"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."
"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
The extra armor on the Ez8 doesn't make much sense for me, or at least not instead of increasing the mobility of the unit.
If we look at other RX-79 variants, such as the Slave Wraith and Blue Destiny, they received an increase of mobility, as a 4 thruster backpack in the case of the SW and as leg thrusters in the case of the BD series. This goes in line with the idea that there was a shift in the development of EF ground combat MS in order to counter Zeon's new Doms.
Adding more armor would seem to be the opposite approach, specially for a non-artillery/non-support MS whose mobility would just be further compromised with the additional weight.
If we look at other RX-79 variants, such as the Slave Wraith and Blue Destiny, they received an increase of mobility, as a 4 thruster backpack in the case of the SW and as leg thrusters in the case of the BD series. This goes in line with the idea that there was a shift in the development of EF ground combat MS in order to counter Zeon's new Doms.
Adding more armor would seem to be the opposite approach, specially for a non-artillery/non-support MS whose mobility would just be further compromised with the additional weight.
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
I always got the idea that the Ez8 was a refit done with the Kojima Battalion's operation to take the mountain base in mind, specifically the defense of the Guntank unit in the abandoned city. If that's the case, they likely designed it mostly with urban warfare in mind, where mobility is mostly limited to begin with.
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
I'm conflicted about that being the reason, since the Ez8 is first deployed before the EF forces find the location of the Zeon. Maybe they suspected it was there, but at the time they had not confirmation and for all they knew it could be elsewhere in the region.
Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
Looks can be deceptive, although the Ez8 looks bulkier than the standard Gundam Ground Type, it is actually lighter. Weight and total weight of Ez8 is 51.5t and 71.7t respectively, while the same specs for Gundam Ground Type is 52.8t and 73t.
The HG manual gives me the impression that the only place where Ez8 has better armor than the Gundam Ground Type is the chest and knee spike section. The new armor on these parts are stated to be more bullet proof and lighter, and gives Ez8 better mobility. Also, the modification to Ez8 is said to made it better adapted for ground combat and is based on available combat data and Shiro's preferences.
Anyway, isn't this discussion about Ez8 refit history and purpose a bit off topic?
The HG manual gives me the impression that the only place where Ez8 has better armor than the Gundam Ground Type is the chest and knee spike section. The new armor on these parts are stated to be more bullet proof and lighter, and gives Ez8 better mobility. Also, the modification to Ez8 is said to made it better adapted for ground combat and is based on available combat data and Shiro's preferences.
Anyway, isn't this discussion about Ez8 refit history and purpose a bit off topic?
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
Back to the original topic, I'm afraid that MS antennas are actually irrelevant for the sensor range of a MS. Let's look at the sensor ranges of several units:
RX-78-2 - 5,700m
RX-79[G] - 5,900m
RX-79NT-1 - 5,900m
RX-75, RX-75-4 & RX-77-2 - 6,000m
RGM-79[G] - 6,000m
RGM-79 - 6,000m
RGM-79C - 6,300m
One thing you'll quickly notice is that the better machine doesn't tend to have the better sensors. Rather, the latest a unit is built (or at least its parts) the better its sensors are. Even artillery type units such as the RX-75 and RX-77 are only marginally better than the RX-78-2 and already start falling behind some newer models.
The Zeon case is a bit more extreme: essentially every Zaku II unit has a sensor range of 3,200, regardless of whether it has a commander antenna (MS-06S & MS-06R-1A), whether its a recon unit (MS-06E), whether it was built early (MS-06F & MS-06S) or late (MS-06F2 & MS-06FZ) into the OYW.
I only made a quick check on some of the most prominent MS-06 models, but the only exception I found were the MS-06K and MS-06R-2, with sensor ranges of 4,400m and 5,600m respectively. The later is particularly interesting because its sensor range is quite close to that of its rival, the MS-09R. For further comparison, here are the ranges of post MS-06 series:
MS-07B & MS-07B3 - 3,600m
MS-09B & MS-09R - 5,400m
MS-14A, MS-14B & MS-14C - 6,300m
Therefore I conclude that sensor range is largely dependent on when was a MS built, regardless of other features such as antennas (best evidenced in the case of the Zakus). Exceptions with unusually high sensor ranges for the OYW would include some sniper units (RGM-79SC - 7,300m, RGM-79SP - 8,700m), the mass production Guncannon (7,300m) and the incomplete Zeong (8,100m).
Unfortunately, this does bear some bad news for some newer Gundam units such as the RX-78NT-1, which seem to use V sensors from the original Gundam parts, resulting in a lower sensor range than newer units.
RX-78-2 - 5,700m
RX-79[G] - 5,900m
RX-79NT-1 - 5,900m
RX-75, RX-75-4 & RX-77-2 - 6,000m
RGM-79[G] - 6,000m
RGM-79 - 6,000m
RGM-79C - 6,300m
One thing you'll quickly notice is that the better machine doesn't tend to have the better sensors. Rather, the latest a unit is built (or at least its parts) the better its sensors are. Even artillery type units such as the RX-75 and RX-77 are only marginally better than the RX-78-2 and already start falling behind some newer models.
The Zeon case is a bit more extreme: essentially every Zaku II unit has a sensor range of 3,200, regardless of whether it has a commander antenna (MS-06S & MS-06R-1A), whether its a recon unit (MS-06E), whether it was built early (MS-06F & MS-06S) or late (MS-06F2 & MS-06FZ) into the OYW.
I only made a quick check on some of the most prominent MS-06 models, but the only exception I found were the MS-06K and MS-06R-2, with sensor ranges of 4,400m and 5,600m respectively. The later is particularly interesting because its sensor range is quite close to that of its rival, the MS-09R. For further comparison, here are the ranges of post MS-06 series:
MS-07B & MS-07B3 - 3,600m
MS-09B & MS-09R - 5,400m
MS-14A, MS-14B & MS-14C - 6,300m
Therefore I conclude that sensor range is largely dependent on when was a MS built, regardless of other features such as antennas (best evidenced in the case of the Zakus). Exceptions with unusually high sensor ranges for the OYW would include some sniper units (RGM-79SC - 7,300m, RGM-79SP - 8,700m), the mass production Guncannon (7,300m) and the incomplete Zeong (8,100m).
Unfortunately, this does bear some bad news for some newer Gundam units such as the RX-78NT-1, which seem to use V sensors from the original Gundam parts, resulting in a lower sensor range than newer units.
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
Where did you get that data anyway?Gelgoog Jager wrote:Back to the original topic, I'm afraid that MS antennas are actually irrelevant for the sensor range of a MS. Let's look at the sensor ranges of several units:
RX-78-2 - 5,700m
RX-79[G] - 5,900m
RX-79NT-1 - 5,900m
RX-75, RX-75-4 & RX-77-2 - 6,000m
RGM-79[G] - 6,000m
RGM-79 - 6,000m
RGM-79C - 6,300m
One thing you'll quickly notice is that the better machine doesn't tend to have the better sensors. Rather, the latest a unit is built (or at least its parts) the better its sensors are. Even artillery type units such as the RX-75 and RX-77 are only marginally better than the RX-78-2 and already start falling behind some newer models.
The Zeon case is a bit more extreme: essentially every Zaku II unit has a sensor range of 3,200, regardless of whether it has a commander antenna (MS-06S & MS-06R-1A), whether its a recon unit (MS-06E), whether it was built early (MS-06F & MS-06S) or late (MS-06F2 & MS-06FZ) into the OYW.
I only made a quick check on some of the most prominent MS-06 models, but the only exception I found were the MS-06K and MS-06R-2, with sensor ranges of 4,400m and 5,600m respectively. The later is particularly interesting because its sensor range is quite close to that of its rival, the MS-09R. For further comparison, here are the ranges of post MS-06 series:
MS-07B & MS-07B3 - 3,600m
MS-09B & MS-09R - 5,400m
MS-14A, MS-14B & MS-14C - 6,300m
Therefore I conclude that sensor range is largely dependent on when was a MS built, regardless of other features such as antennas (best evidenced in the case of the Zakus). Exceptions with unusually high sensor ranges for the OYW would include some sniper units (RGM-79SC - 7,300m, RGM-79SP - 8,700m), the mass production Guncannon (7,300m) and the incomplete Zeong (8,100m).
Unfortunately, this does bear some bad news for some newer Gundam units such as the RX-78NT-1, which seem to use V sensors from the original Gundam parts, resulting in a lower sensor range than newer units.
Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
From the MS profiles, in the cases where sensor ranges are available. MAHQ has most, if not all of them.
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"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
The antennas we're talking about are supposed to be communication antennas, so sensor range isn't part of the equation. Sensor range is the distance at which you're able to spot targets; communication range is the distance at which you can send and receive transmissions.
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
Some clarification.Gelgoog Jager wrote:Back to the original topic, I'm afraid that MS antennas are actually irrelevant for the sensor range of a MS. Let's look at the sensor ranges of several units:
RX-78-2 - 5,700m
RX-79[G] - 5,900m
RX-79NT-1 - 5,900m
RX-75, RX-75-4 & RX-77-2 - 6,000m
RGM-79[G] - 6,000m
RGM-79 - 6,000m
RGM-79C - 6,300m
One thing you'll quickly notice is that the better machine doesn't tend to have the better sensors. Rather, the latest a unit is built (or at least its parts) the better its sensors are. Even artillery type units such as the RX-75 and RX-77 are only marginally better than the RX-78-2 and already start falling behind some newer models.
The Zeon case is a bit more extreme: essentially every Zaku II unit has a sensor range of 3,200, regardless of whether it has a commander antenna (MS-06S & MS-06R-1A), whether its a recon unit (MS-06E), whether it was built early (MS-06F & MS-06S) or late (MS-06F2 & MS-06FZ) into the OYW.
I only made a quick check on some of the most prominent MS-06 models, but the only exception I found were the MS-06K and MS-06R-2, with sensor ranges of 4,400m and 5,600m respectively. The later is particularly interesting because its sensor range is quite close to that of its rival, the MS-09R. For further comparison, here are the ranges of post MS-06 series:
MS-07B & MS-07B3 - 3,600m
MS-09B & MS-09R - 5,400m
MS-14A, MS-14B & MS-14C - 6,300m
Therefore I conclude that sensor range is largely dependent on when was a MS built, regardless of other features such as antennas (best evidenced in the case of the Zakus). Exceptions with unusually high sensor ranges for the OYW would include some sniper units (RGM-79SC - 7,300m, RGM-79SP - 8,700m), the mass production Guncannon (7,300m) and the incomplete Zeong (8,100m).
Unfortunately, this does bear some bad news for some newer Gundam units such as the RX-78NT-1, which seem to use V sensors from the original Gundam parts, resulting in a lower sensor range than newer units.
The EFF side MS sensing range are like this because close combat models like the Gundam has a wider sensing area, thus lowered its ability to sense further. While the mid rangeunits obviously need a long sensing range instead of wider area. The Guntank is a long range support unit, but that is likely because its old enough that the range is not that long.
BTW, the Zeon antennas are for communication(or to be more precise, commanding) and not for sensing, so it doesn't help the range. Similar to the RX-79[G] vs RGM-79[G], the head change was a reply to the field request for better communication, not sensing.
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
Just a reminder: This discussion is not just about U.C MS. I'd also like to discuss other designs like the Exia's ears and clavical antennas (GN Particle does interfere with communication like Minovsky, right?) or the Astray Red Dragon's Ddraig Head (how the heck such two short beams can be used as antennas?).
Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
As has been mentioned IIRC in a couple of sources, the clavicle antennae have precisely zilch to do with communication - their function primarily has to do with control/distribution of GN particles
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"You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but take a boat in the air you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turn of the worlds. Love keeps her in the air when she ought to fall down. Tells you she's hurting before she keens. Makes her a home."
Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
It is unclear if the Astray Red Dragon's Ddraig Head's beam antenna can be used for communications like the regular antenna. All we know is that the beam antenna can take on different forms for different functions. Currently, known functions for the beam antenna include use as (makeshift?) beam sabers, to draw words and pictures, and to light up dim/dark places. Since it is made of beam, it is possible that the beam antenna's length can be changed by increasing the output.False Prophet wrote:Just a reminder: This discussion is not just about U.C MS. I'd also like to discuss other designs like the Exia's ears and clavical antennas (GN Particle does interfere with communication like Minovsky, right?) or the Astray Red Dragon's Ddraig Head (how the heck such two short beams can be used as antennas?).
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Re: Is the Gundam fins optimized for communication?
As far as I can guess, there's one important practical use for command antennae that might at least explain their presence beyond communication - visual recognition.
In a minovsky-rich environment, being able to visually identify your commander is important, especially when the computer has to rely on silhouette instead of IFF.
Wasn't the GM Camouf created because of how important visual identification was?
In a minovsky-rich environment, being able to visually identify your commander is important, especially when the computer has to rely on silhouette instead of IFF.
Wasn't the GM Camouf created because of how important visual identification was?