RX-160 Byarlant: EF or Titans Design?

[Gelgoog Jager]

I'm questioning the claim about the Byarlant being a Titans machine, or being more precise,about the Byarlant being a MS developed by the Titans: I'm more inclined to think that it is actually another MS developed by the regular EF forces that the Titans took over after gaining control of the entire EF forces, as in the case of the Barzam.

The Barzam and Byarlant have in common that they are developed as simplified units, specially cost-wise and when compared with other machines of the time:

-The Barzam is said to cost only 1.5 times as much as a GM II, it can use the existing equipment of other MS such as the GM II and Hijack, and essentially t's meant to replace the GM II for the same reasons.

-The Byarlant is said to be a flight capable MS developed as simpler alternative to the expensive and complex transformable units developed by the Titans. It's also rather lightly armed compared to other machines developed by the Titans, with only two beam guns and two beam sabers.

In both cases I think that this is the result of the Titans receiving the majority of the EF's military budget, forcing regular forces to seek cheaper alternatives in order to keep their forces armed with more up to date weapons.

As for why it's classified as Titans machine, considering that by the time Jerid takes the unit it seems it hasn't been roll out yet, I'm inclined to think that any MS or MA being developed by the EF was reclassified as a Titans machines after Jamitov succeeded in having the EF assembly put the bulk of the EF forces under the command of the Titans.

On a related note, the lone Zaku Cannon seen in Kilimanjaro makes me think that the base was being operated by the EF regular forces not to long ago and the unit in question is a leftover from their MS stationed at the base. i base this on other Zaku Cannons seen along blue Hizacks inside the Hario, the lone green Alexandria class ship which belonged to the regular EF forces.

How does that sound?

[balofo]

The 1/220 manual says it's a Titans-made trial machine. Also the equipments like Beam Rifles were sacrificed for lighter weight and aerodynamics, resulting in the arm MPC/BS. It's equipped with conventional thermo-nuclear rocket engines and thermo-nuclear jet engines(shoulders) for atmospheric flight, resulting into the best solo flight time record until then.

However the same kit's box text says it was developed by the Federal Army(Titans) for battles in limited areas on the Earth similarly to the Barzam

[ChaoticSheep1]

If you consider AoZ canon then the Byarlant is the evolution of the Titan Test Teams Hazel Custom equipped with a ICARUS unit and used the data to create the Byarlant.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/aoz/rx ... icarus.htm

[Gelgoog Jager]

The 1/220 manual says it's a Titans-made trial machine. Also the equipments like Beam Rifles were sacrificed for lighter weight and aerodynamics, resulting in the arm MPC/BS. It's equipped with conventional thermo-nuclear rocket engines and thermo-nuclear jet engines(shoulders) for atmospheric flight, resulting into the best solo flight time record until then.

However the same kit's box text says it was developed by the Federal Army(Titans) for battles in limited areas on the Earth similarly to the Barzam

Being quite honest I always thought that the Byarlant arms were makeshift ones meant to be only used while testing with the machine was finished. The are basically of the same kind as those used on the Jamru Fin, which explicitly classifies them as such. Then there's the fact that both Byarlant Custom units replace them with better ones (larger claws based on the Gabthleys and standard manipulators respectively).

If you consider AoZ canon then the Byarlant is the evolution of the Titan Test Teams Hazel Custom equipped with a ICARUS unit and used the data to create the Byarlant.

http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/RX-121-1_G ... carus_Unit

I must admit I'm not very familiar with AoZ, but based on the gun dam wiki profile of the unit you mention, it says it was first deployed in U.C. 0084. Wouldn't it be possible that between then and U.C. 0087 developers from the regular EF forces had access to the development data? Looking at the list of MS from AoZ I see several units that seem to be based on older RGM-79C units, which I suspect were being developed/tested by regular EF forces and not the Titans.

Furthermore, there's the case the Barzam, which was developed by the EF but was originally supposed to incorporate data from the Titans Gundam Mk II. When the 3 RX-178 units are stolen, the EF engineers finish the design using data from the Marasai instead.

[ChaoticSheep1]

I was under the impression the Titans kept their research data extremely well guarded. Away from the prying eyes of the regular forces. Infact the Titan's were loath to even loan their MS to regular EFSF forces and only did so on the condition the MS were repainted.


Those GM-C units were supplied to the Titans Test Team after the Federation decided to upgrade their GM's to the GM II to see if they should adopt the design as their main unit as well, as such the Titan Test Team engineers upgraded them to the performance level of the GM II.

The other GM units were testing various weapon, sensor and and armor upgrades for later Titans MS. Such as the Radome that was later mounted on the EWAC Zack.

[toysdream]

Putting aside all the third-party publications and side stories, one basic fact about the Barzam - established by its model number - is that it was developed at the New Guinea base, which is consistently referred to in the anime as a Titans base.

When Jaburo is evacuated early in Zeta Gundam, its functions are relocated to other bases elsewhere along the equator, specifically Kilimanjaro and New Guinea. It's not clear in the anime, but it does seem like these are new facilities established to support the Titans' terrestrial operations, and this is where the Barzam and Byarlant are developed. So that basic fact would suggest the regular Federation Forces aren't really involved.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

That would explain why the Barzam was supposed to be completed with data from the Titans Gundam Mk II, which is also a Titans MS.

Overall this make it sound that even before Char's speech at Dakar, the Titans began struggling with budget issues, leading them to seek simplified units like the Barzam and Byarlant over more expensive and complex alternatives. In fact, the Hambrabi might have been an early nod at this situation seeing how it seeked to have a simplified transformation system compared to previous TMS and TMA units.

IIRC this do would fit with a claim that the Titans came to need many additional MS during the Gryps Conflict. The lone exception would be the newtype units which were allowed to keep building their expensive and complex prototypes even late during the conflict.

Still, I'm a bit concerned of where does that leave the GM III in the big picture then: overall it seems like a significant improvement over the Barzam, let alone the GM II or Hizack, yet its model number seems to indicate that its development goes back to U.C. 0086, making it odd that the Titans wouldn't pick it over other designs, specially if they were already developing the Gundam Mk II that shares many characteristics.

My best guess would be that it is not an EF design, but rather an AE machine using an EF model number, much like the RMS-099B. In this case maybe it's using the model number that would have been assigned to the Gundam Mk II, had it kept the original EF labeling system: RX-86?

[domtropen]

Perhaps RX/RGM-86 may be the prototype MS whose parts are given to Wagtail in Advance of Zeta: The Traitor to Destiny? Probably the GM III just borrows the designation of RGM-86 from previously existing project, like Zeon's Act-zaku borrows the MS-11 designation from the MS in Gelgoog development? Anyway GM III's new parts is likely developed only after Anaheim and Karaba analyzes Gundam MkII, and it is likely that these MkII derived parts are superior to Wagtail parts, hence it's become RGM-86R?

[Gelgoog Jager]

I've been checking the RGM-86R and the Wagtail and I'm not convinced they are related at all:

-Checking on other units, I think we can trace some features such as the Wagtail's long shoulders to the RGM-79N.

-The GM III side leg thrusters are right next to each other and I'm inclined to think that they are smaller versions of those seen on the RX-78-6, RX-78NT-1 and RX-80PR.

-On the other hand, the Wagtail's side leg thrusters are slightly separated, and are more similar to those of the RX-81ST.

All that being said, the GM III do is an odd case for supposedly being an AE MS initially for the AEUG/Karaba, even sharing the color scheme of a captured GM II, but retaining an EF model number instead of a MSA or MSK designation.

As for the R in RGM-86R, I though it was simply an indication of the RGM-86R being upgraded form existing RGM-79R units, just like the later is an upgrade over a standard RGM-79.

[JEFFPIATT]

none of the zz era ms model codes make sense due to both the planning changing and the Zaku III equiptment kit verients being split in to half late one year war Zeon ms and the res being changed to RMS federal models and it looks like the people who planed the new model codes didn't have the way ms model codes down pat and sunrise isn't will to fix any of them post script. my guess is that due to the dual model code of the GM II some one decided it was really the RGM-86 and the III should be marked as the refit copying the look of the GM II code due to not knowing how post grypts model numbers should look ST: TNG had the same issue the USS Yamato was erriouniosly marked with an incorrect NCC code in it's first appearance as NCC-1305-E but was later fixed to be NCC-71807. the best guess i have is that the planed RGM-86 was just ment to be an straight simplified version of the RX-178 with all now parts and tooling and the R model was designed for budget reasons allowing the EFF and AEUG/Karaba to just take there existing GM II frames and add MK II parts to them with out paying for newly tooled lines

[Gelgoog Jager]

As JEFFPIAT said, there's also the IRL problem of the changes ZZ underwent in the last minute, which probably affected many of the model number that some of the MS in the series received.

For instance, the MS-06D ((ZZ ver) and RMS-192M were originally supposed to be AMX-011 variants rather than separate MS with a different origin. I could imagine the MS-09G and MS-09H being supposed to have a similar relationship to the AMX-009 in such setting. AFAIK, i could even imagine that the different Gelgoogs that appear in the series, including the ZZ MSV MS-14D, to have at one point being meant to be different versions of a new Gelgoog type MS with the AMX model number.

Personally I particularly dislike the confusion caused by the shared MS-06D model number and the Dowager/Dwadge name for both the MS-09G/MS-09H and the MS-10. I think that Dom II, Dom Kai, Dom High Mobility Type, etc., would have been a better alternative. Anyway, for the sake of simplicity I'll refer to the Desert Zaku (ZZ) as MS-06D2 in this thread.

The way things turn out has also caused some problems in identifying the origins of some units, namely:

MS-06D: sharing the model number of the Zaku Desert Type, the Desert Zaku is supposed to be the result of Zeon remnants and other anti-EF groups upgrading leftover Zaku Desert Type units. The problem comes form assuming that all these separate and ill-equipped factions had access to the resources to upgrade all these machines in exactly the same fashion, not to mention adding features such as panoramic cockpits and 1,440 kW generators powerful enough to use beam weapons.

MS-09G: though said to have been built by the end of the OYW, the units that appear in ZZ all have 1,440 kW generators, panoramic cockpits and are at least partially armored with Gundarium Gamma, which again sounds a bit suspicious considering the situation of the groups that posses them. From the point of view, the Dowager Kai makes more sense as a one of a kind unit resulting from being upgraded over the years by one group. However, I in the particular case of the Ms-09H I have a different theory on its origin, which I'll discuss later on.

RMS-192M: one of the MS that Sunrise did tried to explain, through with a somewhat confusing background story. Originally the MS-06M-1, which seems to have been rejected in favor of the MS-06M-2 (later reclassified as MSM-01), the EF gets ahold of the design and decides to use it for themselves. Unlike its MSM-01 brethren, which retained its model number but was renamed Marine Hizack, the Zaku Mariner wasn't deployed in combat against EF forces and as such is given an EF model number (the RMS-117 Galbaldy Beta is supposedly in a similar situation).

Now, IIRC we discussed a long time ago how a potential solution to this mess would be assuming that the MS-06D2 and MS-09G from ZZ are actually MS produced by the EF, and just like the RMS-192M and RMS-119, they were captured by Zeon or anti-EF groups. That way we can justify having all these units with the same up-to-date configuration. The assumption would be that the since the MS-06D and OYW version of the MS-09G did fought against the EF, they retain their Zeon model numbers, like the Marine Hizack, but unlike the Zaku Mariner.

That being said, I think the MS-06D2 could have easily been renamed Desert Hizack considering that it looks quite different from the original MS-06D. In fact, I'm inclined to think that this MS-06D2 could be a late OYW variation, after all, we know that among the very last units to be produced at California base there were some desert use MS: 30 YMS-09D (only 20 completed and only 10 shipped elsewhere), 8 MS-14D and most likely also the YMS-16M.

Besides the aforementioned 4 types of MS that could be suspected of being EF MS, we also see a some Dreissens, Gallus J and Zssa at Dakar, which are all mass production MS that could have been provided by Neo Zeon, leaving a few Zaku II units, that could have either been provided by Neo Zeon or even Zeon remnants, and a Hizack that either belongs to a deserting titan or was captured like the Eye Zack or Zaku Mariner.

The few MS left that standout are the MS-14S from the blue team, the MS-09H from Rommel forces and the Capule from he team that intercepted the Agama upon landing. One more unit that is relevant to the case is the red MS-14A used by a civilian, which is a OYW MS with an old-style cockpit, which if nothing else confirms that all the other MS must be new units or at least have been upgraded with panoramic cockpits, including the aforementioned MS-09H and the MS-14S. Those two I'm inclined to think that were provided by Axis just like the Capule, rather than captured or upgraded by the remnants/anti-Ef forces.

My reasoning is that in the case of the Gelgoog, we see at least one in ZZ in the background around Axis during Judau's infiltration and by U.C. 0096 the Sleeves are still using some machines in that configuration, despite having the MS-14J upgrade available. On the other hand, the concept of the MS-09H is very similar to the MS-14J, essentially being upgraded OYW units with shoulder boosters to increase their speed, not to mention their similar color scheme. There's also the fact that the beam cannon of the Dowager Kai is very similar to the weapon of the prototype Dreissen. My take on this is that Neo Zeon provided the AMX-109 and MS-09H to Zeon remnants, while the MS-14S (most likely just an upgraded MS-14A with an antenna) was provided to the African Liberation Front more as a gesture than for its combat potential.

Last, but not least, there's the opposite case of the AMX-117L and AMX-117R, which are closely based on the MS-17B Galbaldy Beta, but have new AMX model numbers. Mark has sometimes mentioned the existence of a AMX-117, so that's probably the root of the model number of those two custom units. Since we are told that the MS-17B had a flaw that didn't allow regular pilots to use it until it was upgraded with a panoramic cockpit, I'm thinking that perhaps it was until the AEUG provided Axis this technology that they decided to produce some units, but now using the new AMX designation and probably using Gundarium Gamma allow for their armor. For what it may count, in the Gundam Frag extras included with the ZZ blu-ray sets, there are a couple of clips showing the ZZ Gundam engaging a few Galbaldy Betas, which I would like to assume are Neo Zeon AMX-117 units rather than EF's RMS-117.

[balofo]

The real life explanation for the old Zeon MS in ZZ was to reuse existing molds for higher profit

[JEFFPIATT]

The real life explanation for the old Zeon MS in ZZ was to reuse existing molds for higher profit

lets not break the 4th wall.

the realistic reason for the EFF to keep so many old ms in service is due to it's size it would be expensive to give every base all new equipment with every new adopted main line ms. so they had to rotate models based on base tactical importance and doing half refits on specialized ms who have no new replacement models with the EFN getting the short end of the stick since they in three appearances in animation have been stuck with OYO era units with the MSM-01 and the zaku mariner being at least hi-zack frames fitted with new builds of oyo zaku equipment backs.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I have wondered if the Marine Hizack might have more in common with the RMS-192M than we are told, such as having a 1,440 kW generator. If we assume that the RMS-192M got upgraded with Gundarium Gamma armor after the Titans gained samples of the material, we could also assume that at some point both the Marine Hizack and RMS-192M used simpler titanium armor, like the RMS-117.

Perhaps we could assume other captured Zeon MS built by the EF, such as the MS-06E, MS-06K, MS-07H and MS-11, could have received similar upgrades.

Speaking of the MS-11, I Just realized that it had forgotten one very important feature of it: a 1,440 kW generator designed to fit in a Zaku frame. Therefore we can probably safely assume that after the EF captured the design, it began to upgrade other MS with Zaku frames (MS-06D2, MSM-01, RMS-192M, etc.) with similar generators.

[Dendrobium Stamen]

From what I can recall - and this maybe totally off the mark - there's an implication in Unicorn that the Federation at the very least turns a blind eye toward the various anti-EF elements on Earth even as late as 0096, as the continued presence of these guerrilla fighters with their upgraded MS continues to justify the Federation's military budget.

That's somewhat supported by dialogue in Char's Counterattack from what I recall, where it's implied that Char disarming his Neo-Zeon movement will put a final end to these kinds of anti-Federation remnants, allowing much of the Space Force to be mothballed and, as Adenauer Paraya notes, these ex-military personnel to take up jobs cleaning Earth's beaches.

So, it could well be that - either passively or actively - the Federation consents to Zeon movements such as those seen in ZZ getting their hands on the parts necessary to upgrade their ageing Zaku and Dom types, with Anaheim Electronics quite possibly carrying on their traditional role of arming both sides by passing hardware compatible with old Zeonic Inc. machines down to the remnant movements on Earth. Given the way things tend to work out in the post-OYW Universal Century, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised!

[ChaoticSheep1]

That's a major plot point in MSV-R. If you take that to be canon or not its up to you I guess. But the Zeon Submarine forces even admitted to be getting funds from the Federation Navy itself to keep their forces in fight shape to give the EFN a reason to still exist.