The Generation issue of U.C MS

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False Prophet
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The Generation issue of U.C MS

So, you occasionally hear the word "4th Gen" or "2nd Gen" with certain MS (For example, the ARZ-125 Rehaize is a 4th Gen.)

So, is this designation simply something the fan made up? I've never seen or read about the "Generations of U.C MS" from any canon anime and manga.

And if it is fan-made, are there any justification to it? Unlike Cosmic Era or Anno Domini, MS development in Unversal Century is erratic and different greatly from faction to faction, even within the Zeon or the Federation themselves.

The best we could do is to solidify the concept around a few notable gundam models:

1st Gen: V Project Gundam

1.25 Gen: Alex, 7th Gundam

1.5th Gen: GP Series

1.75 Gen - 1st Tranformation Gen: Advance of Hazel series (which is actually not real Gundam)

2nd Gen: Mk-II

2.5th Gen - 2nd Transformation Gen: Zeta Gundam and its devariates

3rd Gen - 3rd Transformation Gen: ZZ Gundam, S Gundam

4th Gen: Nu Gundam

4.25 Gen: Hi-Nu Gundam

4.5th Gen: Unicorn, Banshee, and Phenex
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Kuruni
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

Pretty sure it's fanmade, as Nu and Hi-Nu dom't exist in same continuity.
My girlfriend was a loli.
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MythSearcher
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

False Prophet wrote:So, you occasionally hear the word "4th Gen" or "2nd Gen" with certain MS (For example, the ARZ-125 Rehaize is a 4th Gen.)

So, is this designation simply something the fan made up? I've never seen or read about the "Generations of U.C MS" from any canon anime and manga.

And if it is fan-made, are there any justification to it? Unlike Cosmic Era or Anno Domini, MS development in Unversal Century is erratic and different greatly from faction to faction, even within the Zeon or the Federation themselves.

The best we could do is to solidify the concept around a few notable gundam models:

1st Gen: V Project Gundam

1.25 Gen: Alex, 7th Gundam

1.5th Gen: GP Series

1.75 Gen - 1st Tranformation Gen: Advance of Hazel series (which is actually not real Gundam)

2nd Gen: Mk-II

2.5th Gen - 2nd Transformation Gen: Zeta Gundam and its devariates

3rd Gen - 3rd Transformation Gen: ZZ Gundam, S Gundam

4th Gen: Nu Gundam

4.25 Gen: Hi-Nu Gundam

4.5th Gen: Unicorn, Banshee, and Phenex
This is canon, but probably not in any of the anime.
I don't know how early this came by, but I known that is in the F90 and V2 model manuals.
There is a slight mention of the "5th" generation in Gundam Sentinel Gundam Wars III book when talking about Anaheim Gundams, hinting Psychommu Frame equipped Nu and possibly its testing predecessor Mu is the 5th Gen, while comfirming FAZZ to be 4th Gen. I don't bother checking other parts of the book about 2nd and 3rd.
Gundam Encyclopeadia Ver. 1.5 also has a detailed explaination, while in the Game Gihren's Greed you also have the term used for development plans.

Here is the list in Ver. 1.5
1st gen: mainly OYW models and whatever you have before 2nd gen.
2nd gen: 1) Linear seat+all range view cockpit, 2) beam weapons as standard equipment, 3) movable frame and 4) Uses Gundarium gamma.
Gundam Mk-II is considered Gen 1.5 since its armour material doesn't fit. First 2nd Gen mass production model is probably Rick Dias.
I think this is retconned somehow, as I reacall, the position of Rick Dias and Mk-II was swaped when I was younger, and the requirement was just 1) and 3), while Rick Dias didn't have 3), thus Zeta was not possible until AE obtained the info of movable frame from Mk-II via AEUG.
Ver. 1.5 talked about Rick Dias has a similar system called Block Build Up, which, in my POV, should be a downgraded version of movable frame, BTW, BBU was a tech from Axis, the Gasa series.
And yes, Ver. 1.5 did say that BBU cannot withstand the transformation of Zeta and thus the movable frame tech has to be used.
3rd Gen: TMS, period.
sub-4th Gen/3.5 Gen: The-O and the Qubeley series.(Not enough power output but generally outclass 2nd Gen, yet not TMS)
4th Gen: Those Dinosaurs, ZZ, S, etc. These MS focused in high power and high fire power.

3rd and 4th Gen never actually retired the 2nd Gen, the main combat models are still 2nd Gen with the developments of various 3rd and 4th gens, even when 3rd and 4th gens faced their biggest problem: price.

5th Gen: RX-104FF Penelop and RX-105 Kusi, the generation with Minovsky Craft.

Then came SNRI, and started the 2nd period MS, the era of smaller MSs, like F90 and V.
False Prophet
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

MythSearcher wrote:This is canon, but probably not in any of the anime.
I don't know how early this came by, but I known that is in the F90 and V2 model manuals.
There is a slight mention of the "5th" generation in Gundam Sentinel Gundam Wars III book when talking about Anaheim Gundams, hinting Psychommu Frame equipped Nu and possibly its testing predecessor Mu is the 5th Gen, while comfirming FAZZ to be 4th Gen. I don't bother checking other parts of the book about 2nd and 3rd.
Gundam Encyclopeadia Ver. 1.5 also has a detailed explaination, while in the Game Gihren's Greed you also have the term used for development plans.

Here is the list in Ver. 1.5
1st gen: mainly OYW models and whatever you have before 2nd gen.
2nd gen: 1) Linear seat+all range view cockpit, 2) beam weapons as standard equipment, 3) movable frame and 4) Uses Gundarium gamma.
Gundam Mk-II is considered Gen 1.5 since its armour material doesn't fit. First 2nd Gen mass production model is probably Rick Dias.
I think this is retconned somehow, as I reacall, the position of Rick Dias and Mk-II was swaped when I was younger, and the requirement was just 1) and 3), while Rick Dias didn't have 3), thus Zeta was not possible until AE obtained the info of movable frame from Mk-II via AEUG.
Ver. 1.5 talked about Rick Dias has a similar system called Block Build Up, which, in my POV, should be a downgraded version of movable frame, BTW, BBU was a tech from Axis, the Gasa series.
And yes, Ver. 1.5 did say that BBU cannot withstand the transformation of Zeta and thus the movable frame tech has to be used.
3rd Gen: TMS, period.
sub-4th Gen/3.5 Gen: The-O and the Qubeley series.(Not enough power output but generally outclass 2nd Gen, yet not TMS)
4th Gen: Those Dinosaurs, ZZ, S, etc. These MS focused in high power and high fire power.

3rd and 4th Gen never actually retired the 2nd Gen, the main combat models are still 2nd Gen with the developments of various 3rd and 4th gens, even when 3rd and 4th gens faced their biggest problem: price.

5th Gen: RX-104FF Penelop and RX-105 Kusi, the generation with Minovsky Craft.

Then came SNRI, and started the 2nd period MS, the era of smaller MSs, like F90 and V.
Thanks!

But in that list, does "Combination Units" counts as 1st gen? The 7th's Armor module, the Dendrobium? If so, then it's plausible to think that external module technology are just an extension of Core Block system.
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

As Mythsearcher mentioned, there are some well established criteria for 2nd and 3rd generation MS. 3rd generations is supposedly straightforward, supposedly only including TMS. But 2nd gen MS need to fulfill various requisites or they end up falling in the so called 1.5 gen classification: beam weapons as standard equipment, Gundarium Gamma alloy, linear seat and movable frame. In fact we are told that basically since no faction had access at first to all these technologies, they had to obtain them from the others: the Titans obtained Gundarium Gamma from the Marasais they got from AE, the AEUG got the complete movable frame from the Mk II and obtained Gundarium Gamma from Axis in exchange of linear seat technology and their early version of the movable frame.

In particular the issue of the movable frame, which supposedly didn't became widespread until after the theft of the Mk II, is rather tricky. It's questionable how complete the movable frame of units such as the Marasai, Nemo and Hyaku Shiki actually is, given the short time between the capture of the Mk II and their deployment. In fact IIRC we are told the reason the Hyaku Shiki was built instead of the Delta Gundam was precisely because at the time Anaheim Electronics' movable frame technology wasn't adequate for its transformation system. I'm inclined to think that the only proper 2nd gen mass production type MS from the Gryps War was the Barzam.

It also leaves in a difficult position the MS built with the movable block construction, namely the Rick Dias and Gaza series. Incidentally there was another thread in which Mark and Mythsearcher discussed about these technologies and how they basically are the result of EF and Zeon engineers trying to sue the construction approach of the other: the movable frame seems to be based on the construction of OYW MS which had a skeleton like construction, best exemplified in the Dom and Gelgoog series which had the bulk of their thrusters on their skirts and calfs, while Axis movable block construction would be based on the Gundam's modular core block construction:

viewtopic.php?p=326224

Another interesting detail from this thread is that the Baund Doc is the first TMA that uses the complete movable frame (as opposed to the early versions developed without the data on the Mk II). It's a hard call for the first TMS with a complete movable frame, but it's most likely either the Gabthley or the Zeta Gundam. And as mentioned above, the Barzam is probably the only mass produced MS from the Gryps Conflict with a complete movable frame, and thus the only full 2nd gen mass production MS at the time.

On a more personal note, I believe that units such as the Qubeley, Zaku II, Dreissen and Gaza L/R would also be using the early movable frame given the time of their development, while units like the Gallus J, Zssa and other later Axis/Neo Zeon machines would use the complete movable frame. Also, given that the movable block construction of the Gaza C is not only not a complete movable frame, but also limits its transformation capabilities, I do wonder if it might be better to classify it as a 2.5 gen MS. The Gaza E deployed around the same time might be on the same boat. On the other hand, both the Gaza D and GaZowmn seem to use movable frame and doesn't seem have such limitations, making them both full-fledged 3rd gen MS.

Moving on, the defunct Library of Londenion had more of the info mentioned by Mythsearcher on the classification of 4th gen MS, listing the Zeta Gundam, The O and Qubeley as barely 4th gen MS, mainly due to each their newtype-related systems. The ZZ Gundam, Dooben Wolf and Geymalk are classified as proper 4th gen MS:

http://web.archive.org/web/200708270820 ... b/eb2.html

Personally I'm more concerned by two later groups of MS: units that only partially use Gundarium Gamma (GM III, Jeddah, Prototype Stark Jegan, Jesta, etc.), and those later units which no longer use Gundarium at all (Geara Doga, Geara Zulu, Jegan, etc.). The former supposedly only use Gundarium Gamma in key areas, such as the cockpit, essentially as a cost-cutting measure, while the later could be presumed to be the result of the strained resources of the later Neo Zeon movements (Geara Doga & Geara Zulu). That being said, I don't know what to think about the Jegan's titanium ceramic composite armor, specially knowing that the Rezel, Ankusha and Gustav Karl all use Gundarium alloy.

I'm inclined to think that these two groups should technically be classified as 1.5 gen MS.
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

Gelgoog Jager wrote:As Mythsearcher mentioned, there are some well established criteria for 2nd and 3rd generation MS. 3rd generations is supposedly straightforward, supposedly only including TMS. But 2nd gen MS need to fulfill various requisites or they end up falling in the so called 1.5 gen classification: beam weapons as standard equipment, Gundarium Gamma alloy, linear seat and movable frame. In fact we are told that basically since no faction had access at first to all these technologies, they had to obtain them from the others: the Titans obtained Gundarium Gamma from the Marasais they got from AE, the AEUG got the complete movable frame from the Mk II and obtained Gundarium Gamma from Axis in exchange of linear seat technology and their early version of the movable frame.

It also leaves in a difficult position the MS built with the movable block construction, namely the Rick Dias and Gaza series. Incidentally there was another thread in which Mark and Mythsearcher discussed about these technologies and how they basically are the result of EF and Zeon engineers trying to sue the construction approach of the other: the movable frame seems to be based on the construction of OYW MS which had a skeleton like construction, best exemplified in the Dom and Gelgoog series which had the bulk of their thrusters on their skirts and calfs, while Axis movable block construction would be based on the Gundam's modular core block construction:

Personally I'm more concerned by two later groups of MS: units that only partially use Gundarium Gamma (GM III, Jeddah, Prototype Stark Jegan, Jesta, etc.), and those later units which no longer use Gundarium at all (Geara Doga, Geara Zulu, Jegan, etc.). The former supposedly only use Gundarium Gamma in key areas, such as the cockpit, essentially as a cost-cutting measure, while the later could be presumed to be the result of the strained resources of the later Neo Zeon movements (Geara Doga & Geara Zulu). That being said, I don't know what to think about the Jegan's titanium ceramic composite armor, specially knowing that the Rezel, Ankusha and Gustav Karl all use Gundarium alloy.

I'm inclined to think that these two groups should technically be classified as 1.5 gen MS.
Then, where should we put Messala and other Sirocco's custom MS? Bolinoak Sammahn is a 1.5 generation unit, well enough, bu in my view, there is something wrong with that definition with the Palace Athene. Call me weird, but I always have this inclination to put the Palace Athene to be the spiritual predecessor of the MkV and the Doven Wolf.

On a side note, if a "civilian" like Sirocco could afford Gundamrium for his machine, and yet the Federation could not be able to do it, it might means one thing: The Federation is scared of inner infighting even more than the threat of Spacenoid resurrection, and thus gave Londo Bell something not that strong.

And they played right in the hand of Anaheim. First of all, they have a product that sooner or latter will demand upgrade or being replaced. And two, now no forces has the resources to set up their own MS development program to rival Anaheim.
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

We need to draw a line among Scirocco's custom MS, which is before he returned to the Earth Sphere and after he gained the favor of Jamitov:

-The Messala is said to have powerful thrusters in order to operate in Jupiter, which actually draws the question of exactly how old it is, since the full journey to Jupiter is said to take 7 years. If it was operational around the time he was at Jupiter, we could go as far as assuming that the Messala has been around since U.C. 0084. This obviously has some limitations: it's construction material could be an older Gundarium alloy, probably to reinforce the frame for its intended role at Jupiter, but not the newer Gundarium Gamma. Same goes to its frame, which most likely is another pre-movable frame, like the Asshimar's drum frame (mentioned in the thread linked in my previous post).

-The rest of Scirocco's MS seem to have been built after he joined the Titans, and from the looks of it were still under development by the time Reccoa infiltrates the Jupitris. Background info indicates that Scirocco helped in the development of the Gabthley, which would mean that after that he would have been familiar with the complete movable frame technology as well as Gundarium Gamma. Therefore I'm inclined to think that both the Palace Athene and Bolinoak Samahn are full 2nd gen units.

I don't know how likely it would be for the data on Scirocco's custom MS to have survived after the Gryps Conflict as to serve as a reference for later MS. The closest I can think is the sub-arms of The O, which could have inspired those of the Nightingale and the Zaku III units operated by the Sleeves in U.C. 0096. The unreliable Gundam wikia says that Gundam Mk V began development before the EF decided to favor the AEUG, which would essentially means that it was before Char's speech at Dakar and therefore before the Palace Athene has been deployed for the first time, or even before it's actually completed.

A more interesting case might be the Psyho Gundams: the original MRX-009 would fall among the TMAs that don't use the complete movable frame, but the Psyho Gundam Mk II could have incorporated the technology. Perhaps this key difference allowed the later to be far more heavily armed, not to mention ending with a very different external appearance?

The case of the availability of Gundarium Gamma for MP type MS is certainly interesting. Axis seemed to have no problem building MS of the material during both the Gryps Conflict and the 1st Neo Zeon War, but the EF/AEUG seems to began having problems during the second conflict: the AE prefers to sell the new MS built with Gundarium Gamma alloy, the Schuzrum Dias, to the Republic of Zeon and the new MS for the AEUG and EF forces, the GM III, only partially uses the alloy.

This does seem like an odd move, specially in the case of the EF that had succeeded in producing the Barzam without AE, and which is said to be quite a bargain costing just 1.5 as much as the GM II, yet probably being the first mass production MS to properly fulfill all the requirements for being considered a full 2nd gen MS unlike most other mass produced MS at the time. But I guess the EF did start pretty early to get rid of all mono-eye/Titans related units.

For what it may count, it seems that some of the remaining Barzams ended up among the units used by at least one of the Zeon remnants groups at Mars, according to AOZ reboot, now classified as the ARZ-154.
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

Gelgoog Jager wrote:We need to draw a line among Scirocco's custom MS, which is before he returned to the Earth Sphere and after he gained the favor of Jamitov:

-The Messala is said to have powerful thrusters in order to operate in Jupiter, which actually draws the question of exactly how old it is, since the full journey to Jupiter is said to take 7 years. If it was operational around the time he was at Jupiter, we could go as far as assuming that the Messala has been around since U.C. 0084. This obviously has some limitations: it's construction material could be an older Gundarium alloy, probably to reinforce the frame for its intended role at Jupiter, but not the newer Gundarium Gamma. Same goes to its frame, which most likely is another pre-movable frame, like the Asshimar's drum frame (mentioned in the thread linked in my previous post).

-The rest of Scirocco's MS seem to have been built after he joined the Titans, and from the looks of it were still under development by the time Reccoa infiltrates the Jupitris. Background info indicates that Scirocco helped in the development of the Gabthley, which would mean that after that he would have been familiar with the complete movable frame technology as well as Gundarium Gamma. Therefore I'm inclined to think that both the Palace Athene and Bolinoak Samahn are full 2nd gen units.

I don't know how likely it would be for the data on Scirocco's custom MS to have survived after the Gryps Conflict as to serve as a reference for later MS. The closest I can think is the sub-arms of The O, which could have inspired those of the Nightingale and the Zaku III units operated by the Sleeves in U.C. 0096. The unreliable Gundam wikia says that Gundam Mk V began development before the EF decided to favor the AEUG, which would essentially means that it was before Char's speech at Dakar and therefore before the Palace Athene has been deployed for the first time, or even before it's actually completed.

A more interesting case might be the Psyho Gundams: the original MRX-009 would fall among the TMAs that don't use the complete movable frame, but the Psyho Gundam Mk II could have incorporated the technology. Perhaps this key difference allowed the later to be far more heavily armed, not to mention ending with a very different external appearance?

The case of the availability of Gundarium Gamma for MP type MS is certainly interesting. Axis seemed to have no problem building MS of the material during both the Gryps Conflict and the 1st Neo Zeon War, but the EF/AEUG seems to began having problems during the second conflict: the AE prefers to sell the new MS built with Gundarium Gamma alloy, the Schuzrum Dias, to the Republic of Zeon and the new MS for the AEUG and EF forces, the GM III, only partially uses the alloy.

This does seem like an odd move, specially in the case of the EF that had succeeded in producing the Barzam without AE, and which is said to be quite a bargain costing just 1.5 as much as the GM II, yet probably being the first mass production MS to properly fulfill all the requirements for being considered a full 2nd gen MS unlike most other mass produced MS at the time. But I guess the EF did start pretty early to get rid of all mono-eye/Titans related units.

For what it may count, it seems that some of the remaining Barzams ended up among the units used by at least one of the Zeon remnants groups at Mars, according to AOZ reboot, now classified as the ARZ-154.
And The O II, if you count the manga. I'm not really so sure how did Axis get their hands on Sirocco's data in the said case. They could either seize the data directly from the Juptris (but then they might lost the neutrality of the Jupiter Fleet), or from the wreckage. He didn't give AE anything, that is for sure.
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MythSearcher
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

Gelgoog Jager wrote:As Mythsearcher mentioned, there are some well established criteria for 2nd and 3rd generation MS. 3rd generations is supposedly straightforward, supposedly only including TMS. But 2nd gen MS need to fulfill various requisites or they end up falling in the so called 1.5 gen classification: beam weapons as standard equipment, Gundarium Gamma alloy, linear seat and movable frame. In fact we are told that basically since no faction had access at first to all these technologies, they had to obtain them from the others: the Titans obtained Gundarium Gamma from the Marasais they got from AE, the AEUG got the complete movable frame from the Mk II and obtained Gundarium Gamma from Axis in exchange of linear seat technology and their early version of the movable frame.

In particular the issue of the movable frame, which supposedly didn't became widespread until after the theft of the Mk II, is rather tricky. It's questionable how complete the movable frame of units such as the Marasai, Nemo and Hyaku Shiki actually is, given the short time between the capture of the Mk II and their deployment. In fact IIRC we are told the reason the Hyaku Shiki was built instead of the Delta Gundam was precisely because at the time Anaheim Electronics' movable frame technology wasn't adequate for its transformation system. I'm inclined to think that the only proper 2nd gen mass production type MS from the Gryps War was the Barzam.
Ver. 1.5 listed these as 2nd Gen:
RMS-099 (which I don't want to)
RMS-108
MSN-00100
RMS-154
MSA-003

These are the only ones the fit all the armour, beam weaponery and cockpit configuration requirements.

Also listed without meeting all are:
RMS-106 (armour doesn't fit, only having beam weaponry and cockpit meeting requirements AND only at a later upgrade, not in the original roll out design)
RMS-117 (armour doesn't fit)
RGM-79R (armour doesn't fit, cockpit upgrade)
RX-178 (armour doesn't fit)

Main 2nd gen at or after the Gyps conflict listed:
RMS-108, RMS-154, MSA-003, MSA-004K, MSA-005K, MSA-007, MSA-007E, MSA-007T, RMS-141, RMS-142, RX-160, RGM-86R
It also leaves in a difficult position the MS built with the movable block construction, namely the Rick Dias and Gaza series. Incidentally there was another thread in which Mark and Mythsearcher discussed about these technologies and how they basically are the result of EF and Zeon engineers trying to sue the construction approach of the other: the movable frame seems to be based on the construction of OYW MS which had a skeleton like construction, best exemplified in the Dom and Gelgoog series which had the bulk of their thrusters on their skirts and calfs, while Axis movable block construction would be based on the Gundam's modular core block construction:

viewtopic.php?p=326224
I do remember a discussion, but surely not this linked one.
Another interesting detail from this thread is that the Baund Doc is the first TMA that uses the complete movable frame (as opposed to the early versions developed without the data on the Mk II). It's a hard call for the first TMS with a complete movable frame, but it's most likely either the Gabthley or the Zeta Gundam. And as mentioned above, the Barzam is probably the only mass produced MS from the Gryps Conflict with a complete movable frame, and thus the only full 2nd gen mass production MS at the time.

On a more personal note, I believe that units such as the Qubeley, Zaku II, Dreissen and Gaza L/R would also be using the early movable frame given the time of their development, while units like the Gallus J, Zssa and other later Axis/Neo Zeon machines would use the complete movable frame. Also, given that the movable block construction of the Gaza C is not only not a complete movable frame, but also limits its transformation capabilities, I do wonder if it might be better to classify it as a 2.5 gen MS. The Gaza E deployed around the same time might be on the same boat. On the other hand, both the Gaza D and GaZowmn seem to use movable frame and doesn't seem have such limitations, making them both full-fledged 3rd gen MS.
Funny enough, Ver. 1.5 does support your view point here.
It did not really talked about if Gasa C is 3rd gen or not, but said that MSA-005 Methuss is not really a 3rd gen if taken seriously. But did not explain in details.
I have yet to see a detail explanation of 3rd gen MS, other than a brief mention of it being transformable.[/quote]

Ver. 1.5 has a section called 3rd Gen MS, but after a discussion of TMS, is really didn't gave explanation of which TMS is and is not a 3rd gen. It gave the impression that TMS=3rd gen in the title and the subsections, but leaving some speculation of that being not true in the text.
Moving on, the defunct Library of Londenion had more of the info mentioned by Mythsearcher on the classification of 4th gen MS, listing the Zeta Gundam, The O and Qubeley as barely 4th gen MS, mainly due to each their newtype-related systems. The ZZ Gundam, Dooben Wolf and Geymalk are classified as proper 4th gen MS:

http://web.archive.org/web/200708270820 ... b/eb2.html
The Zeta is surely not 4th gen.
It is regarded as the pinicle and sample of the 3rd gen.
Personally I'm more concerned by two later groups of MS: units that only partially use Gundarium Gamma (GM III, Jeddah, Prototype Stark Jegan, Jesta, etc.), and those later units which no longer use Gundarium at all (Geara Doga, Geara Zulu, Jegan, etc.). The former supposedly only use Gundarium Gamma in key areas, such as the cockpit, essentially as a cost-cutting measure, while the later could be presumed to be the result of the strained resources of the later Neo Zeon movements (Geara Doga & Geara Zulu). That being said, I don't know what to think about the Jegan's titanium ceramic composite armor, specially knowing that the Rezel, Ankusha and Gustav Karl all use Gundarium alloy.

I'm inclined to think that these two groups should technically be classified as 1.5 gen MS.
Anything after the 2nd gen seems to be extremely loose.
I know real life fighter jets generation is also quite loose, but not this kind of level of loose.
the 3rd gen MS still see some level of mass production, but 4th~5th gen basically never see any.
Obviously the armour material got either improved beyond Gundarium Gamma or simply Gamma got too expensive, and there are newer mass production units using non Gundarium Gamma armour but still more powerful than those 2nd gen MSs.

If I am a military commentator/historian/etc/whatever in the UC world, probably I will ditch the armour requirement as soon as I picked up news in somewhere near 0090 when they started to use newer armour materials in newer models.
The TMS will probably be classified into another different category instead of 3rd gen, and itself will have a few generations as well.
Likely simple modular block movement ones like Gasa C and Methuss will be in the 1st gen TMS, better built ones like Zeta, Z plus will be in 2nd gen. I will place the combination MS in this cat as well, in the 0.5 places. This would also be related to the normal MS generations, since 2nd gen TMS will like have to have all the required technologies of the normal 2nd gen MS, like the movable frame and cockpit.

If I have to agree with the current 1st to 3rd gen classification, I'd list the GM III, Jegan, etc. in the 2.5 gen list, but the ones with newer technologies like the mass production Nu Gundam into the 4th gen. My rationale would be that the 3rd gen MS(TMS) have to transform solely because of the reason where they cannot meet the performance requirement of the era, and later, more powerful MSs that can meet the requirement without the transformation system should then obviously be placed as a new generation.
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

MythSearcher wrote:If I have to agree with the current 1st to 3rd gen classification, I'd list the GM III, Jegan, etc. in the 2.5 gen list, but the ones with newer technologies like the mass production Nu Gundam into the 4th gen. My rationale would be that the 3rd gen MS(TMS) have to transform solely because of the reason where they cannot meet the performance requirement of the era, and later, more powerful MSs that can meet the requirement without the transformation system should then obviously be placed as a new generation.
And what would those requirements be?

In my view, there is one need of the Federation that might have been taken into consideration when they first built TMS: Area Dominance. The concept never die with the Dendrobium; but in fact became even more important in the eye of the EFF. They just had seen the extent of damage a relatively small, mobile, and irregular groups of spacenoid (the Delaz fleet) could do to them. So what they really needed at the time were machines that could be deployed rapidly, able to dealt with many enemy, versatile in many environments, etc.

This is why the focus has never been on just Transformation. Psycommu, Moveable Frame, High Mega Cannon, etc. Everything falls into their bigger scheme to put as much firepower as possible on to a MS.

In practice, however...
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

False Prophet wrote:
And what would those requirements be?

In my view, there is one need of the Federation that might have been taken into consideration when they first built TMS: Area Dominance. The concept never die with the Dendrobium; but in fact became even more important in the eye of the EFF. They just had seen the extent of damage a relatively small, mobile, and irregular groups of spacenoid (the Delaz fleet) could do to them. So what they really needed at the time were machines that could be deployed rapidly, able to dealt with many enemy, versatile in many environments, etc.

This is why the focus has never been on just Transformation. Psycommu, Moveable Frame, High Mega Cannon, etc. Everything falls into their bigger scheme to put as much firepower as possible on to a MS.

In practice, however...
Requirements varies with era, generally speaking is the survival in combat in that period and perform in a way so that they pose a threat to the enemies, yet being still economical.

A more real world development path would be something like this, economical efficiency usually means that relatively simple machines with the latest technology that can be mass produced will dominate the battlefield.

They simply overwhelm the ones with more advance technology/fire power with its ease of production and sheer quantity.

Of course if you have a technology gap and an economic gap between you and the enemy, and you are the far better side, you can kinda ignore the efficiency to some degree and just build more powerful units, but usually the fun thing is historically, its the side without the advantage that does the wrong decision to build less efficient but more powerful units, hoping to turn the table by sheer force, but failing in doing so because the other side simply win by building a simpler model that is really easy to mass produce in numbers, and the production cost usually grow exponentially when you want to make things more powerful than your manufacturing technology.
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Brave Fencer Kirby
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

The idea behind "generations" of fighters is that some new technology is important enough that older tech becomes obsolete after the introduction of certain features. For fighter planes in the real world, it's roughly generation 1 (original jet fighters), generation 2 (supersonic flight and air-to-air missiles), generation 3 (beyond visual range missiles), generation 4 (electronic upgrades; computer-modeled airframe design, fly-by-wire controls), generation 4.5 (reduced radar cross sections, radar-absorbing materials, etc), generation 5 (true stealth designs, sensor networking).

Applying this logic to mobile suits, you'd end up with something like generation 1 (original mobile suits), generation 2 (hand-held beam weaponry), generation 2.5 (panoramic cockpit/linear seat), generation 3 (moveable frame), generation 4 (miniaturization, beam shields). Other technology, like transformable mecha, Newtype weapons, and Gundarium-based armor, never really gained enough traction to become "must-have" technology, so I wouldn't really consider them part of any given mobile suit generation.

Of course, that's all based on my own musings, rather than taken from any source anywhere.
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

I think that one issue that is complicating the classification of MS, besides the cost issue, is the consideration of prototype units for such classifications, namely those which use technologies that do not become widely adopted, if not outright abandoned.

For instance, with the loose criteria for 1.5 gen MS, the RX-78NT-1 could probably be considered the earliest machine to fulfill two of the 4 criteria for 2nd gen MS, much like the GM II and Hizack.

In the case of 3rd gen MS, if we accepted such a loose criteria as "any MS that transforms", we could even argue that amphibious MS that have what we could describe as an underwater "cruising mode" could be considered the first 3rd gen MS.

Last, but not least, regarding the high firepower criteria of 4th gen MS, I imagine that units such as Thunderbolt's FA Gundam, the Zeong, Zock, etc. and other older units focusing on firing capabilities could probably fit the criteria, specially if we consider that by comparison, The O is said to basically qualify as a 4th gen MS.

That being said, even by the most strict criteria of 3rd gen and 4th gen MS (assuming both also fulfill the criteria of 2nd gen MS), we do have examples of mass production models MS built by Axis/Neo Zeon.

The Gaza D, which replaced the Gaza C, is a prime example of a mass produced 3rd gen MS, specially if we consider that since we are told that the AMX-006 corrected the problems that limited the number of transformations the AMX-003 could perform before breaking down as a way of saying that it probably incorporated the full movable frame technology Axis didn't have at the time they developed the Gaza C. Another example is the GaZowmn, which although not seen as widely used as the Gaza D, is also classified as a mass production type TMS. The Bawoo, though initially introduced as a commander prototype MS, was probably also approved for mass production much like the Gallus J, Zssa and Dreissen.

On the other hand, the Dooben Wolf and Qubeley mass production type should both fit the criteria for 4th gen MS. The later was seen deployed in large numbers during the Battle of Axis, and the later, while only seen in limited quantities at the same battle, has reappeared in later works, such as the units owned by the Sleeves, the units captured by the EF which served as the basis for the ARX-014 Silver Bullet and even the units operated by the Glemy remnants in Missing Link. As a side note, the AMX-015 Geymalk and NZ-000 Quin Mantha are classified as mass production units in their Mahq profiles. Personally I could imagine the Geymalk being a rival machine to the Dooben Wolf, with the caveat that it needs a new type/cybernewtype pilot. The Quin Mantha is a more difficult machine to imagine being fit for mass production, unless in this case mass production meant something more along the lines of OYW MAs, such as the Bigro, which is classified as a mass production type MA, even though it had a production run of just 14 units. Just like the Geymalk, it would mainly be limited by the availability of newtype pilots capable of using them.
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

I've been giving some more thought to the whole 4th gen MS issue, and I'm thinking that perhaps the idea actually came as a result of the rather conservative firepower of many MS from the Gryps conflict, specially mass production machines:

In the first group we have units like the GM II, Nemo, Marasai and Barzam are commonly despited with a load out of a beam rifle, head vulcans and 1 or 2 beam sabers.

A second group of more "heavily armed" units would include the Galbaldy Beta, with a couple of shield missiles, Rick Dias which carries two beam pistols and a bazooka and the Gaza C with 2 beam guns and a knuckle buster.

I left the Hizack out since it's commonly equipped with an outdated ballistic machine gun instead of a beam rifle, which could be translated as an even lower firepower than the first group. However, we do see a few units equipped with beam rifles and said units tend to further add a set of hip mounted missile launchers, giving it more firepower closer to that of the second group. Unfortunately the later are very uncommon. The same could be said about Marasais using the Gabthley's Fedayeen rifle or the Hambrabi's sea serpent during the Gryps conflict.

Anyway, my point is that these machines have a somewhat limited firepower, specially the first group.

During the 1st Neo Zeon War there's a new trend of giving even mass production type MS a significantly higher firepower. The most noticeable examples are the GM III and Gaza D, direct successors to Gryps era units. While both machines have other improvements such as better mobility or a perfected transformation system in the case of the Gaza D, it's very noticeable that both machines got a significant boost in firepower:

Gaza C -> Gaza D
Knuckle Buster (6.7 MW) -> Knuckle Buster (8.5 MW)
Backpack Beam Gun (2.3 MW each) x2 -> Backpack Beam gun (3.2 MW each) x2
-> Foot Beam Gun x2
Beam Saber (0.4 MW each) x2 -> Beam Saber (0.9 MW each) x2
-> 14-Tube Binder Missile Launcher x2
-> 4-Tube Binder Missile Launcher x2

GM II -> GM III
Beam Rifle (1.9MW) x1 -> Beam Rifle (2.8 MW) x1
Beam Saber (?? MW) x1 -> Beam Saber (0.4 MW) x2
60mm Head Vulcan x2 -> 60mm Head Vulcan x2
-> 2-Tube Hip Large Missile Launcher x2
-> 4-Tube Shoulder Medium Missile Launcher x2/15-Tube Shoulder Small Missile Launcher x2

Also, in the UC OVAS GM III units in space seem to replace their old GM shield with those from the Jegans, providing an additional 2-Tube Shield Missile Launcher x2.

Other non-newtype machines from the 1st Neo Zeon War with significant firepower are the GaZowmn, Zssa, Bawoo, Schuzrum Dias, etc.

And let's not forget that even during the Gryps War, we had a few one-of-a kind MS with significant firepower, such as the Palace Athene or the Super Gundam.

My point is that there's this set of quasi-4th gen MS, that may lack newtype equipment, but have received a significant boost in firepower compared to the standard grunt machines from the Gryps era, to put them on more equal terms to the actual 4th gen machines.

How does that sound?
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

So like a 3.5 Gen?
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

The problem with calling them 3.5 is that unlike 3rd gen units that essentially must fulfill the requirements of 2nd gen units, the same is not true for 4th gen units. For instance, units like the Gaza F and GaZowmn do could be called 3.5 since they are TMS. On the other hand, the GM III and Schuzrum Dias can't transform, so it would feel wrong to call them 3.5 when they lack the key feature of 3rd gen MS.

Therefore 2.5 would technically be the most correct term, however, this term may also apply to machines that may not be considered full-fledged TMS, such as the Methuss and the Gaza C, which don't use the perfected movable frame of the RX-178, limiting their transformation mechanisms.

In other words, calling them 3.5 gen could lead to the incorrect impression that they are transformable machines without sufficient firepower or newtype features to be classified as 4th gen machines. Ultimately I think that quasi 4th gen MS might be the simplest way to refer to them while trying to avoid the confusion of whether they are TMS or not, specially considering that most 4th gen units are not even transformable units.
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

Gelgoog Jager wrote:The problem with calling them 3.5 is that unlike 3rd gen units that essentially must fulfill the requirements of 2nd gen units, the same is not true for 4th gen units. For instance, units like the Gaza F and GaZowmn do could be called 3.5 since they are TMS. On the other hand, the GM III and Schuzrum Dias can't transform, so it would feel wrong to call them 3.5 when they lack the key feature of 3rd gen MS.

Therefore 2.5 would technically be the most correct term, however, this term may also apply to machines that may not be considered full-fledged TMS, such as the Methuss and the Gaza C, which don't use the perfected movable frame of the RX-178, limiting their transformation mechanisms.

In other words, calling them 3.5 gen could lead to the incorrect impression that they are transformable machines without sufficient firepower or newtype features to be classified as 4th gen machines. Ultimately I think that quasi 4th gen MS might be the simplest way to refer to them while trying to avoid the confusion of whether they are TMS or not, specially considering that most 4th gen units are not even transformable units.
That is the main reason I think the TMS should be separately classified.
Transformation really doesn't make the MS much more powerful, its basically just a redistrbution of specifications, like turning manoeuvrability into acceleration in a single direction.(MS mode to whatever mode with less AMBAC functions)
The system requires some basic technology like the movable frame, but isn't necessary to give enough performance.(thus little 3rd gen mass production models are made)
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Brave Fencer Kirby
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

Yeah, TMS are pretty much a technological dead end. They were popular during the Gryps era and the first Neo Zeon war, but after that they pretty much fade away except for the occasional one-off with a vastly simplified transformation mode. The drawbacks don't seem to be worth the benefits.
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Gelgoog Jager
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

Actually I think TMS do can be a valuable asset sighing a well organized army, specially if we consider them the equivalent of marines:

-They can arrive faster than the non-TMS to the combat zone if th situation demands immediate action. In the UC OVAs we can see how the are dos arrive even before the Jegans with space jabbers.

-If thing turn difficult they can stay behind to keep the enemy busy, while the regular forces begin their retreat l, and once they are safe, they can quickly catch up with them while leaving most of the enemy behind, with the deception of other TMS or exceptionally fast units.

-As shown in the case of the Rezel, some of them can actually function as SFS for other MS, easily allowing them to ferry more units in the battle area or more easily fetch a damaged ally and carry him to safety.

That being said, TMS do have their share of problems that likely led to their diminished presence among the EF forces, including high cost and a potential structural weakness direct consequence of their transformation mechanisms.
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Re: The Generation issue of U.C MS

A little tidbit: Ever since the GP04, there has been a number of MS with propulsion fins (A.K.A thrusters that protrude from the backpack, unlike the OYW MS which only have the nozzles mounted directly on the lowerside of the backpack.) like the Mk.II, the ZZ, Jegan, even the Hi-Nu has one

So should we also take this into the classification of MS generation? I mean, it and the wing binders/tail stabilators can be grouped into the "Improved AMBAC" design elements.
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