The optimal configuration of weapons for mecha?

[-Mit-]

Some time ago I was looking through my collection mecha pictures of "Full Metal Panic!" and drew attention to an interesting point:

http://pds23.egloos.com/pds/201209/07/8 ... 2ebe04.jpg
In most anime with real mecha, they, being something like a technical reflection to fighters, copy equipment and armament of soldiers... ie, there is a combat walker in seven to nine meters high, armed with a 40mm automatic cannon, possibly under-barrel launcher (as an option, only recoilless gun and / or missiles) and some weapons for close combat - is not too small and weak?

http://fullmetalpanic.wikia.com/wiki/Fi ... czAeCE.jpg
On the other hand there is a tendency to equip mecha all occasions, ie anthropomorphic fighting vehicle armed with autocannon / recoilless gun + antipersonnel gun + anti tank / helicopter missile



So which approach is more efficient and promising?
- specialization in a particular type of weapons and certain tactical role
or
- versatility

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

The answer is, as with any question this broad, "it depends".

Versatility is a good priority if you have limited numbers available and want to be able to cover all your bases with a smaller force. Specialization is better if you can afford it or if the various roles you're trying to fill are so different that a general-purpose machine can't effectively cover all of them. (Atmospheric flight is a good example of that -- most flying MS are custom designed for it, rather than being general purpose mecha that just happen to be able to fly. The other major example is amphibious or aquatic mecha.)

[Kuruni]

Some time ago I was looking through my collection mecha pictures of "Full Metal Panis!" and drew attention to an interesting point:

Bolded by me. I'm pretty sure that's a typo...but it's very good typo, sound like a name that would fit perfectly as subtitle for a sequel to Orgazmo or Tengaman. My head is now full of the manliest images ever.

[Seto Kaiba]

Hi -MiT-. We'd really super appreciate it if you didn't link to malicious websites. Use a credible image host like Imgur or Photobucket.

Some time ago I was looking through my collection mecha pictures of "Full Metal Panis!" and drew attention to an interesting point:

In most anime with real mecha, they, being something like a technical reflection to fighters, copy equipment and armament of soldiers... ie, there is a combat walker in seven to nine meters high, armed with a 40mm automatic cannon, possibly under-barrel launcher (as an option, only recoilless gun and / or missiles) and some weapons for close combat - is not too small and weak?

On the other hand there is a tendency to equip mecha all occasions, ie anthropomorphic fighting vehicle armed with autocannon / recoilless gun + antipersonnel gun + anti tank / helicopter missile

So which approach is more efficient and promising?
- specialization in a particular type of weapons and certain tactical role
or
- versatility

As it was in the last several threads of yours that had this format, the answer to your question is that every series is different and there is no one rule that will work for all or even most of them.

It depends on the level of technological advancement in the setting, the tactical requirements of the story, and so on.

[-Mit-]

Kuruni - I corrected a typo, sorry for the inconvenience

Hi -MiT-. We'd really super appreciate it if you didn't link to malicious websites. Use a credible image host like Imgur or Photobucket.

The first picture is taken with a Korean blog and it is perhaps the only picture in good quality which could find; the second picture was taken from a local social network (currently replaced it illustration with English FMP! Wiki)... Maybe you have a problem with filters?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

As it was in the last several threads of yours that had this format,

Subject forums and communities is needed in order that-be participants can ask questions and share their views on the issue of interest... Do you not know?

the answer to your question is that every series is different and there is no one rule that will work for all or even most of them.

It depends on the level of technological advancement in the setting, the tactical requirements of the story, and so on.

Well, take, for example, "FMP!" and compare the two mecha of this universe, RK-92 "savage" and "C3-5 Mistral II", as illustrations of different approaches.

- Both have built-in anti-infantry machine guns, caliber 14.5mm and 12.7mm respectively

- Both have as the main armament automatic gun, caliber 37mm and 40mm respectively

- Both have as a melee weapon monomolecular cutters (but for "Savage" are throwing cutters (on the Effects resemble grenades), and cumulative sledgehammers (reminiscent of the shells))

- Both have Missiles, however, vary greatly in principle the installation: on the back, "Savage" is set anti / counter-AS "Grushin AT-16"(?), the caliber of 205mm and one charge (design resembles a German Panzerfaust since World War II), on the shoulders of "Mistral" de set of three chargers launchers of anti-tank / anti helicopter rockets

- Theoretically, "Mistral" can be used recoilless gun, caliber 76mm...

It turns out that in similar fighting tasks "Mistral" has a larger ammo weapons against the heavy military equipment and, mind you, not to the detriment of the rest of the weaponry...


So, let me repeat the question: "...which approach is more efficient and promising?"

[Arsarcana]

...you continue to miss the point. What sort of opponent(s) are the mecha going to be fighting? What environment(s) will they be operating in? How many units do you have and can you afford to make somre or all of them specialized? Are they going to be deploying with other units like infantry, tanks or aircraft that can provide various kinds of support or are they not? All of these are factors that affect the answer to your overly broad question.

[Kuruni]

Kuruni - I corrected a typo, sorry for the inconvenience

Aww, I said I like it. I mean...Panis!

Back to the topic, as other have said already - it's depend on the setting of work. Technology is also huge factor here, look at those early VT from Steel Battalion for examples. Artillery type VT even has different cockpit layout from standard type, because standard equipments and OS can't handle the task well. Yet they drop that once the 3rd generation VT roll in since the system is advance enough to handle both task effective enough.

IF you really insist to get the answer, usually the versatility one is more effective in fiction. Because that's usually what the hero get. EXCEPT when specialize mech is pure close-combat one (usually just a sword), because then that will be what the hero get instead. Depend on writer, sometime it will later get improved into more versatility model (with gun to counter enemy's range attack) but equally often not (the hero will learn to deal with range attack, either with some form of protecion or simply more badass skill, then just get close-in for kill).

Still...I miss the panis...

[Gelgoog Jager]

I agree with what others have mentioned here: who/what are he Emma's supposed to fight against?

-A standard army with no mechas (Zeon during the first half of the OYW)
-Other mechas (Macross)
-Creatures (Muv Luv)

And in what environment? I'm pretty certain that some environments would probably encourage the use of specialized machines over general machines.

[-Mit-]

I agree with what others have mentioned here: who/what are he Emma's supposed to fight against?

...you continue to miss the point.

Are you kidding? I have repeatedly pointed out that is considered "Full Metal Panic!" universe and, therefore, there are two existing approach in the design of combat robotics...

If you are not familiar with these ranobe / anime / manga, specify basic data
- the size of most models range between 7.5 and 10 meters; weight of from 9.5 to 15 tons
- on the battlefield have a role that is somewhere between the airborne combat vehicles and infantry/tank support vehicle
- the number of combat vehicles roughly corresponds to the above-mentioned types of standard military equipment
- designed to support and cover the infantry with armored vehicles, fighting on difficult terrain areas (city and mountain, for example), as well as raids on the enemy's rear


Comparison of the two models:

... RK-92 "savage" and "C3-5 Mistral II", as illustrations of different approaches.

- Both have built-in anti-infantry machine guns, caliber 14.5mm and 12.7mm respectively

- Both have as the main armament automatic gun, caliber 37mm and 40mm respectively

- Both have as a melee weapon monomolecular cutters (but for "Savage" are throwing cutters (on the Effects resemble grenades), and cumulative sledgehammers (reminiscent of the shells))

- Both have Missiles, however, vary greatly in principle the installation: on the back, "Savage" is set anti / counter-AS "Grushin AT-16"(?), the caliber of 205mm and one charge (design resembles a German Panzerfaust since World War II), on the shoulders of "Mistral" de set of three chargers launchers of anti-tank / anti helicopter rockets

- Theoretically, "Mistral" can be used recoilless gun, caliber 76mm...

It turns out that in similar fighting tasks "Mistral" has a larger ammo weapons against the heavy military equipment and, mind you, not to the detriment of the rest of the weaponry...


So which approach would be more effective? Mechanized imitation soldier or armored vehicles with manipulators?

[Seto Kaiba]

The first picture is taken with a Korean blog and it is perhaps the only picture in good quality which could find; the second picture was taken from a local social network (currently replaced it illustration with English FMP! Wiki)... Maybe you have a problem with filters?

Nope, not a filter issue... the first website lit my antivirus and range filter up like a christmas tree, and VirusTotal flagged it as a known malware distributor. Not quite "five alarm fire" levels of warning, but enough to sit up and take notice.

Well, take, for example, "FMP!" and compare the two mecha of this universe, RK-92 "savage" and "C3-5 Mistral II", as illustrations of different approaches.

- Both have built-in anti-infantry machine guns, caliber 14.5mm and 12.7mm respectively

- Both have as the main armament automatic gun, caliber 37mm and 40mm respectively

- Both have as a melee weapon monomolecular cutters (but for "Savage" are throwing cutters (on the Effects resemble grenades), and cumulative sledgehammers (reminiscent of the shells))

- Both have Missiles, however, vary greatly in principle the installation: on the back, "Savage" is set anti / counter-AS "Grushin AT-16"(?), the caliber of 205mm and one charge (design resembles a German Panzerfaust since World War II), on the shoulders of "Mistral" de set of three chargers launchers of anti-tank / anti helicopter rockets

- Theoretically, "Mistral" can be used recoilless gun, caliber 76mm...

It turns out that in similar fighting tasks "Mistral" has a larger ammo weapons against the heavy military equipment and, mind you, not to the detriment of the rest of the weaponry...


So, let me repeat the question: "...which approach is more efficient and promising?"

OK... totally wasn't expecting a question that actually has a straightforward, official answer from one specific series. That makes this very simple.

In Full Metal Panic!, the answer is that the higher-mobility "mechanized imitation soldier" approach to Arm Slave design is demonstrated to be superior to the "armored vehicle equipped with manipulators" approach.

The GIAT C3-5 Mistral II is the ONLY 2nd Generation AS to have not gone with the high agility fully humanoid frame structure, and it suffers as a result. It's basically the AS that's bought by banana republics and other third-world countries who can't afford the decent quality equipment that's sold by NATO to its allies and are too capitalist to buy secondhand Rk-91's and Rk-92's from the Soviet Union or its allies directly. All that armor and the low mobility just makes the Mistral II a sitting target for anti-tank daggers, monomolecular cutters, high-caliber anti-AS shells, and conventional guided missiles because it's not agile enough to fight hand to hand and not fast enough to dodge. On paper, the C3-5 Mistral II is inferior to practically every AS of its generation that's been seen... Soviet Russia's Rk-91 and Rk-92, America's M6 Bushnell, Germany's Drache, England's Cyclone II, and Japan's M6-derivative Type-96.

Literally every other 2nd and 3rd Generation AS, save one, went with the high mobility humanoid soldier approach. The exception is the AMALGAM Plan1051 Behemoth, which was built to be little more than a massive, heavily armored lambda driver deployment platform... and those became useless rather quickly once MITHRIL started deploying systems that made the false axis field the lambda driver projected visible, allowing AS's on the ground to see the gaps in the Behemoth's shield and target vital systems through the gaps.

Are you kidding? I have repeatedly pointed out that is considered "Full Metal Panic!" universe and, therefore, there are two existing approach in the design of combat robotics...

Actually, that wasn't clear from your first post... but it's certainly clear now, which makes it easier to provide a satisfactory answer to your question.

[Areku]

Are you kidding? I have repeatedly pointed out that is considered "Full Metal Panic!" universe and, therefore, there are two existing approach in the design of combat robotics...

*sigh* You should try to look at your own posts from the perspective of someone who only has your posted words to interpret the question you want to ask. As it turns out, your words do not make it at all clear that you're primarily interested in "optimal weapon configurations" specifically within FMP!. Your title question is very broad and does nothing to narrow it down to FMP!, and your restatement of the question in your first and second posts are equally broad and unspecific. While you mentioned FMP! a total of 3 times, none of those indicated that FMP! was the primary subject of your question; the 1st time you make an anecdotal reference to your perusal of FMP! pictures, the 2nd time you're referencing the filters on a Korean blog, and the 3rd time you literally say that FMP! is an example. An example! That means it is one setting of many, not the only setting you're interested in.

Please conduct yourself and your speech like you are dealing with actual human beings that are trying to answer or discuss your questions, not some omniscient answer generator that should magically know what information you are looking for. Doing so will not only lead to less confrontation and nitpicking, but will also get more concise answers and answers from more people.

Now, to at least attempt to answer your question and not simply nitpick the way you've asked it: It's been a long time since I've seen anything from FMP!, so I'm afraid I can't directly answer your question about outfitting an Arm Slave. However, here's how I generally see some common weapons being useful on mecha and other vehicles, assuming some modicum of realism:

-Relatively small, rapid firing guns (machine-guns, automatic rifles, shotguns, pistols etc): Function best when used against small, mobile and lightly armored targets (infantry, un-armored and lightly-armored land vehicles and small boats, occasionally against loitering helicopters) at relatively shorter ranges. Relatively lightweight and low-stress on the frame, these weapons are a good match for smaller and faster platforms. Notably, shotguns can use ammo that place them in the large-gun/explosive-launcher categories, but the spread-shot ammo normally associated with them belongs here.

-Relatively large, slow-firing guns (large-caliber cannons, heavy "sniper-rifles" and artillery): Function best when used against larger, slower or armored targets (tanks, IFVs and most man-made structures) or densely-clustered soft targets (depending on ammo) at relatively longer ranges. These tend to be heavy and high-stress, placing severe penalties and limitations on the size and mobility of the platforms wielding them. If you're trying to be realistic, these weapons don't belong on general-purpose mechs.

-Small-sized explosive launchers (under-barrel or dedicated grenade launchers): Straddling the line between the two previous categories, these can allow smaller and more mobile platforms to engage the heavier targets (or a large number of densely-clustered soft targets, depending on the ammo) at close range without restricting their mobility.

-Missiles and rockets: Like guns, these tend to come in the flavors of small, numerous and rapid-firing at short-range (shoulder cluster launchers, Hydra pods, and the oft-portrayed mecha RPG) and large, longer-ranged and generally more capable missiles launched one-at-a-time (surface-to-air missiles, anti-ship missiles, bunker-busters, etc). These are very diverse, but generally a mech will only have access to the smaller types, and even then in limited numbers, likely using them only as an "alpha strike" when first engaging a significantly threatening target or as suppressive fire. It's notable that for ground-based vehicles, larger missiles are the only credible weapons they can feasibly use against fixed-wing aircraft unless they have some exotic "particle-beam" weaponry (no, lasers are not up to the task; if you think they are, you're dealing with technological levels that render the entire topic a moot point); airborne platforms have a few more options available for that.

-Melee weapons: If you mean knives and swords, then lol, no. Like anti-fixed-wing lasers, if this is a credible option in your universe (outside of a do-or-die last resort), the entire topic is a moot point. The closest you're going to get is a means for your mech/vehicle to initiate a collision and walk away from it in better shape than the other guy; a shield-like device covered in reactive armor would be about as interesting as it gets. Maybe a pile driver, but even that isn't something you should sacrifice a non-melee weapon for.

I intentionally didn't include mech as a target, mainly because their armor and mobility varies greatly in how they're portrayed. Depending on the mech you have in mind, figure out where it sits compared to the other targets. Then figure out what types of targets you'd like to plan for your mech/vehicle to engage and how it will function (fast and mobile, in and out? slow and clunky, hold territory?), then balance its weapons accordingly.

[Kuruni]

I remember that the first post used to be about how you use FMP as examples rather than simply ask FMP question. Well, maybe I'm wrong. Name like Full Metal Panis can make thing a little blur .

[Omnislayer]

It certainly seems like a broad question. you don't make it very clear it was about FMP, and not just using FMP as an example.


Full Metal Panis really should be a thing.

[-Mit-]

I remember that the first post used to be about how you use FMP as examples rather than simply ask FMP question...

Well, there's at least one person carefully read messages -_-

totally wasn't expecting a question that actually has a straightforward, official answer from one specific series.

Well, if you take the other series, it turns out a pretty interesting picture:

- in "Gasaraki" has "Ishtar Mk II of", at a height of 4.6m and weight of 5.6t, armed with a pair of LOSAT type missiles and 65 mm rapid-firing gun; as an option, 65mm quick-firing gun and claw for close combat; it is possible to install EM Gun ... in all cases the setting of 50mm grenade launcher
http://blog-imgs-47-origin.fc2.com/a/s/ ... C_0940.jpg
http://bandai-a.akamaihd.net/bc/img/mod ... 3304_4.jpg
http://web.tiscali.it/gasaraki/graphics/metf33.jpg

- "VOTOMS" 4 meter mecha usually thoroughly arm
https://garasunokokoro.files.wordpress. ... votoms.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/73 ... ef7e5d.jpg

- in "Code Geass" quite a lot of personal and experimental war machines, with their characteristics, but ordinary, 5 meter mek, well armed
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/cod ... 1203042422

- "Heavy Gear", 4 meter, armed, well, no comment
http://fai.org.ru/forum/uploads/monthly ... 051795.jpg

- "Power Doll", scheme equip weapons = can fire in all directions
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn97 ... g~original
http://pds25.egloos.com/pds/201211/21/6 ... 4a2fce.jpg

etc...

In general, the use of relatively small mek equipped with a powerful and multipurpose arsenal of weapons quite common phenomenon ... It is logical, by the way, as to create expensive and complex 9 meter walker by equipping a high-velocity 40mm gun, at least, strange...

The GIAT C3-5 Mistral II is the ONLY 2nd Generation AS to have not gone with the high agility fully humanoid frame structure, and it suffers as a result.

On the other hand, this design allows the "Mistral" used to repair parts of the traditional military equipment, play the role of a mobile firing point and facilitates its transportation

It's basically the AS that's bought by banana republics and other third-world countries who can't afford the decent quality equipment that's sold by NATO to its allies and are too capitalist to buy secondhand Rk-91's and Rk-92's from the Soviet Union or its allies directly.

A small correction, "Mistral" sells well in third world countries because it has a low cost (by Western standards for the equipment), and to export models use diesel engines, less powerful, but take advantage of AS in industrially underdeveloped countries.

And one more thing, except M6 Bushnell, which probably comes to Israel, "Mistral" is the only western AS a reliable supply of which in other countries generally known

All that armor and the low mobility just makes the Mistral II a sitting target for anti-tank daggers, monomolecular cutters, high-caliber anti-AS shells, and conventional guided missiles because it's not agile enough to fight hand to hand and not fast enough to dodge.

In order to hit the "Mistral" knife or cutter, should be approached at close distance and therefore guaranteed to fall into the affected area of his arsenal. He will have time right?

By the way, most "Mistral" has monomolecular cutter for close combat, so this model can fight in melee...

Funny claim - quite seriously try to dodge artillery shell or missile, and I'll see ... AS it is possible to disable using a 40mm autocannon, so ...

Incidentally, the contempt for "Mistral" could arise due to the first episode of "TSR", in which a significant number of them were killed ... However, I must say that this was done by the forces of AS 3 generations, which traditionally can be easily disassembled and "RK-92 Savage" and "M6 Bushnell" ...

But how effective French mecha can resist their brethren of the second generation?

On paper, the C3-5 Mistral II is inferior to practically every AS of its generation that's been seen... Soviet Russia's Rk-91 and Rk-92, America's M6 Bushnell, Germany's Drache, England's Cyclone II, and Japan's M6-derivative Type-96.

Here I must make a couple of comments:

- "RK-92" is a kind of a Kalashnikov assault rifle in the world of robots, because there is a strong, reliable, unpretentious and hardy AS, which, in general, makes it perhaps the best AS in the second generation, and the most common ...

- "M6 Bushnell", in principle, well armored, but it is rather weakly armed, is simple to manage and a large power reserve, allowing this model to make long transitions without additional vehicles. However, outside the US, almost does not occur ...

- "Drache", about him we know only that it is (or was), not counting the rumors about the presence of a powerful armor protection (to be honest, the idea of making mecha armor at level tank is questionable by definition). As a result, this "miracle" has been replaced by the new AS "Wolf"

- "Cyclone II" famous for a unique design with two reactors. Thanks to the two reactors, Cyclone-2 is able to use energy more efficiently, reassigning it a different amount for different functions, and function even when one reactor is taken out of the system. In his generation, this model was considered one of the most agile and can compete even with the third generation of the BR. However, the armor in "Cyclone" is so thin that it is very easy to break and cause significant damage to the robot.

- "Type-96", very well armed and armored model, but there are no opportunities melee
http://film.thedigitalfix.com/protected ... 2front.jpg

Simply put all these mecha except RK-92 Savage, there are both advantages and disadvantages...

Literally every other 2nd and 3rd Generation AS, save one, went with the high mobility humanoid soldier approach.

Not quite right, for example "Dark Bushnell" already had additional weapons systems in the form of rocket units are installed on the back equipped with a rocket launcher and "Type 96"...
http://a.mhcdn.net/store/manga/666/10-0 ... 1303452702

So the idea that the "firepower is everything" is alive and well:)

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, if you take the other series, it turns out a pretty interesting picture:

If you look at other series, then we're back to the answer that literally everyone else in this topic already gave you...

There is no one approach that works in all, or even most, series because every setting is different and the robots therein were developed for different tactical requirements. Even what constitutes a "light" or "heavy" weapon differs considerably between shows.

(Take, for instance, Macross and Gundam. In Macross, a 5,000KW beam weapon is a light weapon. In Gundam that same power level is battleship-grade weaponry.)

On the other hand, this design allows the "Mistral" used to repair parts of the traditional military equipment, play the role of a mobile firing point and facilitates its transportation

I've never seen anything in any source relevant to Full Metal Panic! that would indicate that the Mistral II had many, if any, parts in common with more conventional military vehicles. They'd potentially be able to share some common engine parts because the Mistral II's engine is a typical gas turbine engine configured to run as a generator instead of a drivetrain motor, but so were the more humanoid 2nd Generation Arm Slaves like the Rk-91/92, M6, etc.

Your statements here don't line up with anything from the actual Full Metal Panic! setting.

It's basically the AS that's bought by banana republics and other third-world countries who can't afford the decent quality equipment that's sold by NATO to its allies and are too capitalist to buy secondhand Rk-91's and Rk-92's from the Soviet Union or its allies directly.

A small correction, "Mistral" sells well in third world countries because it has a low cost (by Western standards for the equipment), and to export models use diesel engines, less powerful, but take advantage of AS in industrially underdeveloped countries.

Your "correction" isn't accurate though... it's explicitly stated that the reason the C3-5 Mistral II is found among the armies of oppressive third-world governments and banana republics is that they are sold to those countries via the Soviet-backed paramilitary organization AMALGAM, who made the Mistral available because those countries weren't Soviet-friendly enough or flush with enough cash to obtain the higher-performance Soviet-made Rk series AS's. The Mistral II is, canonically, kind of absolutely-goddamn-awful as AS's go.

And one more thing, except M6 Bushnell, which probably comes to Israel, "Mistral" is the only western AS a reliable supply of which in other countries generally known

That's also not quite accurate... you have to remember that Full Metal Panic! is set in an alternate history where the Cold War never ended.

The world is basically split between NATO and its allies, the Warsaw Pact and its allies, and those unaffiliated countries we know as the third world. NATO member states and NATO allies used the American M6 Bushnell, the German Drache, the British Cyclone, or French Mistral II, though some (like Japan) built their own local variations of same. Japan's Type 96 is actually a modified, local version of the M6 Bushnell. The Soviet Union's member states and allies use the Rk-91 and Rk-92 for their forces. Third world countries like the Balic Republic (from TSR) have to buy their AS's in black market deals or secondhand from the major world powers.

In order to hit the "Mistral" knife or cutter, should be approached at close distance and therefore guaranteed to fall into the affected area of his arsenal. He will have time right?

Not necessarily, no... a monomolecular cutter is designed for hand-to-hand-combat, but the anti-tank daggers are explosive armor-piercing projectiles designed to be thrown from afar. The very low agility of the Mistral II would make it exceptionally difficult to avoid a thrown ATD. The C3-5 just isn't designed to dodge effectively.

By the way, most "Mistral" has monomolecular cutter for close combat, so this model can fight in melee...

In theory, yes... but every publication to cover the Mistral makes a meal of how poor its combat response times and agility are. The MMC-C2 cutter it carries is a desperation weapon and nothing more.

Funny claim - quite seriously try to dodge artillery shell or missile, and I'll see ... AS it is possible to disable using a 40mm autocannon, so ...

Dodging artillery shells and missiles are shown to be well within the capabilities of the Rk-92 and M6, and both the Drache and Cyclone are said to be comparable in performance. The Mistral II's the underperforming catastrophe of the 2nd Generation.

Incidentally, the contempt for "Mistral" could arise due to the first episode of "TSR", in which a significant number of them were killed ... However, I must say that this was done by the forces of AS 3 generations, which traditionally can be easily disassembled and "RK-92 Savage" and "M6 Bushnell" ...

No, the Mistral II is explicitly a piece of junk in the light novels and manga as well... the anime is simply reflecting already-established facts from the original work.

But how effective French mecha can resist their brethren of the second generation?

That's an excellent question... because there's no mention that the French military actually uses the C3-5 Mistral II. It's made in France, but that doesn't mean the French use it. (Indeed, AMALGAM sells them to third world countries precisely BECAUSE they're garbage compared to the other 2nd Generation AS's, and only really fit for oppressing peasants armed with postwar machine guns and harsh language.)

Simply put all these mecha except RK-92 Savage, there are both advantages and disadvantages..

You're basing all of this on the TV series, which is just a small slice of the Full Metal Panic! story.

We do actually see some significant downsides to the Rk-91 and Rk-92 series later on in the story, but what's consistent in every source to cover the Mistral II is that it's simply a piece of junk that compares unfavorably to every other AS on the market.

Literally every other 2nd and 3rd Generation AS, save one, went with the high mobility humanoid soldier approach.

Not quite right, for example "Dark Bushnell" already had additional weapons systems in the form of rocket units are installed on the back equipped with a rocket launcher and "Type 96"...

The M6A3 Dark Bushnell doesn't mount that equipment as standard, that's special mission hardware for fire support. Even then, it relies much more on its ECS and mobility than its armor.

So the idea that the "firepower is everything" is alive and well:)

Nope, pretty much explicitly a dead concept WRT Arm Slaves in Full Metal Panic!... except the ARX-8, which used a lambda driver to allow it to use guns that would otherwise be MUCH too heavy for an AS to wield at all.

[-Mit-]

If you look at other series, then we're back to the answer that literally everyone else in this topic already gave you...ven what constitutes a "light" or "heavy" weapon differs considerably between shows.

I remind you that it is you guys started talking about different shows ... And by the way, I have listed only those TV shows where mecha using traditional firearm ...

So do not multiply entities - it makes no sense, "Gundam Thunderbolt" a witness

That's also not quite accurate... you have to remember that Full Metal Panic! is set in an alternate history where the Cold War never ended.

That's only in Eastern Europe, raging war, which would be impossible if the current "Warsaw Pact";
the former People's Republic of China is split into several states after the civil war in the early 90's; an a series of conflicts in the South-East Asia, affecting Cambodia and Vietnaman, and in the territory of the Indonesian archipelago

In short, the Communists are doing lousy

NATO member states and NATO allies used the American M6 Bushnell, the German Drache, the British Cyclone, or French Mistral II, though some (like Japan) built their own local variations of same. Japan's Type 96 is actually a modified, local version of the M6 Bushnell. The Soviet Union's member states and allies use the Rk-91 and Rk-92 for their forces. Third world countries like the Balic Republic (from TSR) have to buy their AS's in black market deals or secondhand from the major world powers.

Did you know that just listed paragraphs are mutually exclusive? If Europeans are national models mecha, then why should they American? It's like to say - "All NATO countries must rearm in the "Abrams" tanks because they are made in NATO and it does not matter that they have the "Leopards","Leclerc" and "Challenger"!"

"RK-92 Savages" buy because they are the most reliable and easy to use and maintain...

Third World countries, such as Balik, buy your favorite military equipment quite officially, what was mentioned in the anime

Soviet-backed paramilitary organization AMALGAM, who made the Mistral available because those countries weren't Soviet-friendly enough or flush with enough cash to obtain the higher-performance Soviet-made Rk series AS's.

What?! "Amalgam" was established as a forerunner of "Mithril" by the same British Lord, only the other persons, who stood at its origins organization, chose to use the opportunity to foment wars and sale of military and dual-purpose goods, not peacemaking ...

I've never seen anything in any source relevant to Full Metal Panic! that would indicate that the Mistral II had many, if any, parts in common with more conventional military vehicles. They'd potentially be able to share some common engine parts because the Mistral II's engine is a typical gas turbine engine configured to run as a generator instead of a drivetrain motor, but so were the more humanoid 2nd Generation Arm Slaves like the Rk-91/92, M6, etc.

Your statements here don't line up with anything from the actual Full Metal Panic! setting.

Well, I took the information from the translated articles delivered with different illustrations, for example:

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c190/ ... g~original
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c190/ ... g~original
Mistral 2 (Debut in TSR Episode 1)
Producer: Giart (?) TTO
Height 7.8m Weight 14.5t
Reactor: Chewbo-mecha "Tentis 1B" Gas Turbine Engine (1500KW)
Maximum Operation Time: 200hrs,
Maximum speed: 110km/h,
Maximum jumping: height 15m
Fixed Armaments: FN M2HB(S) 12.7mm Autocannon
Optional Weapons: Giart GFA FAMAG-G2 35mm Rifle, Grart-Manrihe BVH 40mm Rifle, Hugues VGM-A2(M) "Versal 2" Multi-purpose Missile, BAE Systems MMC-C2 Monomolecular cutter

Basically an extended design from armoured combat vehicles, this French 2ndGen AS can be seen as an armoured vehicle with arms and legs (which Arcenciel followed suit).

"Mistral 1" was also one of the few handful 1.5stGen AS made for AS research, and they all retired at this point.

Though the placing of the M2 Autocannon becomes a laughing stock regarding its design, Mistral 2 has the advantage of its module design and the capability to use parts from armoured vehicles, making it easy to use. But Gas Turbine engines are really hard to maintain, so export models will use diesel engines which, while making its performance inferior to the original, ensures lower-tech countries can also use them well------though the buyers have the say to use either design with different concerns.

While it looks like slow and bulky, its mobility, armour defence and electronics are actually better than Savage, and its low price tag (from a western design anyway) leads to good sales around the world (even to unstable countries), only bested by Savage and M6 series.

and so

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c190/ ... g~original
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c190/ ... g~original
Arcenciel
Producer: Giart (?) TTO
Height 8.3m Weight 11.5t
Reactor: Euro Reactor EPR-3 (2150KW)
Maximum: Operation Time 180hrs,
Maximum: speed 160km/h,
Maximum: jumping height 30m
Fixed Armaments: FN M2HB(S) 12.7mm Autocannon or Giart GFA M811 25mm Autocannon
Optional Weapons: Grart-Manrihe BVH 40mm Rifle, Hugues VGM-A2(M) "Versal 2" Multi-purpose Missile, Otto-merara "Mantis" 76mm Low Recoil Cannon, BAE Systems MMC-C2 Monomolecular cutter

The 3rdGen AS from France as the progress of Mistral 2 line, which basically follows the design concepts from it, but since France treat AS as a kind of combat vehicle so its CQC capability isn't a primary concern.

Arcenciel tries to extend the AS concept as a hidden threat, so it mainly goes for stealth capability in order to wait for a long time and conduct hit-and-run attacks------though it's mainly considered as 2.5ndGen AS since it's inferior to other 3rdGen like M9 оr Zy-99 except their reactor.

Also, Euro Reactor is led by France's Framatom compant along with other European energy enterprises, which export their military reactors to other countries (which can't produce reactors by themselves) like Sweden, Spain and South Africa.

(From Gatoh: The anti-personnel gun among Mistral 2's hips, while it's practical, does raise some concerns among readers......)

These translations from the Japanese, were made by enthusiasts from the forum "Animesuki"

There is one more thing these images, if someone translated the information from them will be very grateful
https://pp.vk.me/c311116/v311116602/60c ... RGVhis.jpg
https://pp.vk.me/c311116/v311116602/609 ... czAeCE.jpg

a monomolecular cutter is designed for hand-to-hand-combat, but the anti-tank daggers are explosive armor-piercing projectiles designed to be thrown from afar.

And how far? At 40mm autocannon distance will be more...

The MMC-C2 cutter it carries is a desperation weapon and nothing more.

Then it is the "last chance Weapon"...

In fact, there is a good funny story on this subject:

"To engage in hand to hand combat Special Forces soldier must:

1) Lose on the field of assault rifle, pistol, knife, waist strap, shoulder, body armor, a helmet.

2) Find a flat area which is not lying any stone or stick.

3) Find it on the same loser.

And only after that, to join with him in the melee. "

Dodging artillery shells and missiles are shown to be well within the capabilities of the Rk-92 and M6, and both the Drache and Cyclone are said to be comparable in performance.

Strangely, as far as I remember, they basically blew up or falling apart, except when they ran "Sagarа & Co".

No, the Mistral II is explicitly a piece of junk in the light novels and manga as well...

Something can not believe, after all, if this model is so bad, why the French have continued to develop this concept?

That's an excellent question... because there's no mention that the French military actually uses the C3-5 Mistral II. It's made in France, but that doesn't mean the French use it.

"Aragorn Pants", or what? By this logic, it turns out that the British do not use the "Cyclone" and the Germans "Dragon" ... What? After all, they have never been shown

You're basing all of this on the TV series, which is just a small slice of the Full Metal Panic! story.

I have to disappoint you, but I am familiar with all the novels of the original "Full Metal Panic!" ... And I advise you to read about Namshak arch and, in particular, the "Savage" fight against M9, as well as a dozen other AS...

The M6A3 Dark Bushnell doesn't mount that equipment as standard, that's special mission hardware for fire support. Even then, it relies much more on its ECS and mobility than its armor.

Uh ... Nope. Gun M6 version looks like this:
http://img165.poco.cn/mypoco/myphoto/20 ... 03_007.jpg

Nope, pretty much explicitly a dead concept WRT Arm Slaves in Full Metal Panic!... except the ARX-8, which used a lambda driver to allow it to use guns that would otherwise be MUCH too heavy for an AS to wield at all.

I'm afraid the further development of the concept of artillery mecha in "Full Metal Panic! Another" you categorically disagrees ... again, the appearance of the standard arsenal of AS recoilless guns in caliber 76mm, built-in weapons and curtain heavy weapons systems, too...

[Seto Kaiba]

I remind you that it is you guys started talking about different shows ... And by the way, I have listed only those TV shows where mecha using traditional firearm ...

You're the one citing examples from a half-dozen other shows, none of which are related to the Full Metal Panic! series.

That's only in Eastern Europe, raging war, which would be impossible if the current "Warsaw Pact";
the former People's Republic of China is split into several states after the civil war in the early 90's; an a series of conflicts in the South-East Asia, affecting Cambodia and Vietnaman, and in the territory of the Indonesian archipelago

In short, the Communists are doing lousy

You don't really get a good picture of the global situation from the Full Metal Panic! anime, as it only covers a very small portion of a long story.

In actual fact, the Communists are doing quite well for themselves in the alternate history created by the Whispered. They control most of Eastern Europe, a good chunk of the Middle East (following that successful re-invasion of Afghanistan that played such a big role in Sousuke's backstory), and they've got half of China and a decent-sized chunk of Asia under their thumb as well. Their secretly financed paramilitary cat's paw, AMALGAM, also has a near-monopoly on black market arms sales worldwide.

Hell, the only reason MITHRIL lasted as long as it did was because AMALGAM wasn't serious about the task of wiping them out. In the later portions of the story that didn't get animated, the Soviet-backed AMALGAM wipes out MITHRIL almost overnight.

Did you know that just listed paragraphs are mutually exclusive? If Europeans are national models mecha, then why should they American? It's like to say - "All NATO countries must rearm in the "Abrams" tanks because they are made in NATO and it does not matter that they have the "Leopards","Leclerc" and "Challenger"!"

No, it is not... even today, you find that NATO allies will often buy weapons from each other to fill an operational niche that their own domestic products don't already fill. There are only a few nations in the NATO organization in Full Metal Panic! that produce their own domestic Arm Slaves, so the majority buy from those that do.

The Warsaw Pact nations and their allies largely buy export "monkey models" of the Savage from the Russians.

Third world countries like the Balic Republic are known to buy their Arm Slaves on the black market... Balic bought its Mistral II's through the terrorist/paramilitary organization AMALGAM.

What?! "Amalgam" was established as a forerunner of "Mithril" by the same British Lord, only the other persons, who stood at its origins organization, chose to use the opportunity to foment wars and sale of military and dual-purpose goods, not peacemaking ...

Yes, AMALGAM was originally founded as a paramilitary organization without national ties, but it very quickly became corrupt and ended up in the pocket of the Soviets. A lot of what they do is the illegal sale of Soviet arms and covert field testing of Soviet-built weapons like the Zy-98 Shadow and Codarl series of AS's. Lord Mallory founded MITHRIL after leaving AMALGAM in a desperate (ultimately futile) effort to counter AMALGAM's growing power.

Well, I took the information from the translated articles delivered with different illustrations, for example:

You've got some stuff in there backwards, mate... the Japanese sources credit the C3-5 Mistral II as being inferior to the Rk-92 Savage and other contemporary AS designs in terms of its agility and its maneuverability on land. It's credited with having very simply electronics and being best used in a long-range engagement with firearms.

WRT the Arcenciel... it's unclear how official/canon the Full Metal Panic! Another manga is, so I'd take those with a grain of salt.

And how far? At 40mm autocannon distance will be more...

Most AS-carried rifles don't actually have that long of a range (a kilometer or two with any accuracy), and while the Mistral II's fire control is said to be good (vs. the Savage's) it's demonstrated to be very easy for high-mobility AS's to close that distance in a matter of minutes (or less). The Mistral II does not possess anti-ESC countermeasures either, so an ECS-equipped AS like a Bushnell, Gernsback, or a Shadow could walk right up to throwing range and hit it with the ATD with minimal risk of detection.

The MMC-C2 cutter it carries is a desperation weapon and nothing more.

Then it is the "last chance Weapon"...

Yes... though it's worth noting that the more agile AS's don't regard their blades as a weapon of the last resort, but rather as an excellent way to dispatch an enemy by getting SO close that he can't bring his guns to bear. (3rd Generation AS's seem to be EXTREMELY fond of this approach.)

Strangely, as far as I remember, they basically blew up or falling apart, except when they ran "Sagarа & Co".

You've got a strangely selective (or perhaps anime-exclusive?) memory there... A21's Rk-92s made a mockery of MITHRIL's defenses and successfully abducted Commander Kalenin from a secure facility, Rk-91s and Rk-92s were the go-to AS for the Soviet re-invasion of Afghanistan and were practically an unstoppable force there (and were then used by the Afghanistani military against MITHRIL with some success), and a handful of Savages captured an entire MITHRIL rescue operation when Sousuke was in training. The Savage was not a joke mecha by a long shot, it was portrayed for almost the entire series as a terrifyingly capable machine in the hands of a trained pilot. (The problem was that it was so widely used that there were also a LOT of poorly trained pilots.)

Something can not believe, after all, if this model is so bad, why the French have continued to develop this concept?

Presumably because it continues to sell to third world countries... though it may simply be the same problem as the F-35, an ongoing disaster being dragged out because the military doesn't want to own up to the fact that it sunk money into a bad design.

"Aragorn Pants", or what? By this logic, it turns out that the British do not use the "Cyclone" and the Germans "Dragon" ... What? After all, they have never been shown

Nah, we have statements in the print sources that the Germans use the Drache and the British use the Cyclone... it's very curious that we don't have a similar statement WRT the Mistral II.

I have to disappoint you, but I am familiar with all the novels of the original "Full Metal Panic!" ... And I advise you to read about Namshak arch and, in particular, the "Savage" fight against M9, as well as a dozen other AS...

Most of those have not been released in any language but Japanese... so the question is, have YOU actually read them, or just summaries of them posted by Animesuki users?

Uh ... Nope. Gun M6 version looks like this:
http://img165.poco.cn/mypoco/myphoto/20 ... 03_007.jpg

Another one from the dubious spinoff?

I'm afraid the further development of the concept of artillery mecha in "Full Metal Panic! Another" you categorically disagrees ... again, the appearance of the standard arsenal of AS recoilless guns in caliber 76mm, built-in weapons and curtain heavy weapons systems, too...

*sigh* Yeah, that's a spinoff that may or may not actually be canon to the Full Metal Panic! series. What goes on in that is not necessarily in line with the official story, mate.

[Arsarcana]

I remind you that it is you guys started talking about different shows ... And by the way, I have listed only those TV shows where mecha using traditional firearm ...

No no no, you started this topic with an extremely broad question and used FMP as an example. If you can't make yourself understood, perhaps you should consider formatting your queries in a manner that human beings can actually understand.

NATO member states and NATO allies used the American M6 Bushnell, the German Drache, the British Cyclone, or French Mistral II, though some (like Japan) built their own local variations of same. Japan's Type 96 is actually a modified, local version of the M6 Bushnell. The Soviet Union's member states and allies use the Rk-91 and Rk-92 for their forces. Third world countries like the Balic Republic (from TSR) have to buy their AS's in black market deals or secondhand from the major world powers.

Did you know that just listed paragraphs are mutually exclusive? If Europeans are national models mecha, then why should they American? It's like to say - "All NATO countries must rearm in the "Abrams" tanks because they are made in NATO and it does not matter that they have the "Leopards","Leclerc" and "Challenger"!"

Hello, this is the real world calling. This happens all the time when an ally has a machine that fills a niche (or beats anything you've got) and is willing to let you have it. The M1 Abrams is used in Australia to replace the Leopard. This is especially obvious with aircraft. Japan's Self-Defense Force uses variants of the American F-4 and F-15 (the F-2 is their only homegrown fighter and that was based on the F-16). The AV-8B Harrier II and variants used by the USA, the UK, Italy and Spain is derived from the British-made Hawker Siddeley Harrier which the rest adopted because it worked and they didn't have anything like it. Then there's things like the F-20 Tigershark that was conceived from the beginning as an export model that wasn't meant to be used by the country that developed it. I could go on but even you should be able to see the point I'm getting at.

No, the Mistral II is explicitly a piece of junk in the light novels and manga as well...

Something can not believe, after all, if this model is so bad, why the French have continued to develop this concept?

Do you not read anything that other people post? Because they can sell it to people who can't afford anything better. And I'm sorry you have trouble believing it but it's true, the Mistral II is a (barely) walking accident waiting to happen. Which is why it's an export model.

You're basing all of this on the TV series, which is just a small slice of the Full Metal Panic! story.

I have to disappoint you, but I am familiar with all the novels of the original "Full Metal Panic!" ... And I advise you to read about Namshak arch and, in particular, the "Savage" fight against M9, as well as a dozen other AS...

Nam Sach, not Namshak. And it's irrelevant because the novels still show the Mistrall II to be junk, the M9 was known to be the best of the second-gen AS but not invincible, the Savage was already known to be an effective machine and, oh yes, it had a Whispered working on it. So I'm not sure what you think you're proving other than your ability to continue to miss the point.

[Kuruni]

...the M9 was known to be the best of the second-gen AS but not invincible...

Nitpicking, I think you mean M6 since M9 is 3rd gen.

But if we really stick to FMP, then isn't the answer is given already with 3rd gen AS are all versatile model? M9A1E1 is the only one* I know for being specialize, but it's still just M9A1 with lot of extra equipments.

* Excluding specialize model for Lamda Driver.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Presumably because it continues to sell to third world countries... though it may simply be the same problem as the F-35, an ongoing disaster being dragged out because the military doesn't want to own up to the fact that it sunk money into a bad design.

Point of order: the F-35 is actually a pretty good design, and most of the information to the contrary is either premature (the F-35 is still in its testing phase, things are still being changed) or misinterpretations (like the whole "F-35 loses to an F-16 in a dogfight" thing, which is wrong on several levels; most importantly, it wasn't a dogfight and the F-35 didn't lose).

The problems with the program (which is late and over budget, to put it mildly) rather than the aircraft, though, I won't even try to defend.